2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

[CollectGU]

FYI, I contacted AMI and offered them all the information posted, and theyhave agreed to pull this item from the current auction.

Regards,
Dave

[Eric]

Dave

Thanks for following up on this and for giving us the info. What is more baffling is how mr lampson can keep writing letters on these jerseys if they were only used in 1 game.

I wonder what will happen to the one in vintage authentics...

[EndzoneSports]

Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires.

Regards,

[lund6771]

VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...unfortunately, even though I hate to admit it, if something really sweet came along I'd probably go after it

everyone makes mistakes once in a while but this is a joke...the auction houses know exactly what's going on...they must have some great connections because 95% of their auctions contain the same garbage as the last one...and their next auction will continue the trend and so on...

by running an honest & ethical business is what will keep you around...I've seen MANY dealers come and go...at first, a lot of them ran a great gig, but unfortunately greed took over...I think that's the problem with today's auctions...GREED!!!!!...I believe that Meigray, without any comparison, runs the best customer-oriented business that I have seen in my 19 years of experience...100% guarentees, they take the time to fully inspect a product, and genuinly strive to make absolute, 100% sure, that they are selling an authentic product...

I believe that this site will be around for a long time, and we'll still be dealing with Meigray....but through historical trends, my money says that most of these auction houses, along with Lampson, won't be around in 5 years

[kingjammy24]

"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires."

the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.

[mr.miracle]

"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.

Rudy:

You are hilarious, I cannot stop laughing.

[ChrisCavalier]

the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.

Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to get caught up on things after having minor surgery last week and I have to say I find this thread fascinating. First of all, to Patrick and everyone who participated on this thread, I really have to say I think you guys have done a tremendous job explaining this situation.

I also have one question. Is it possible that Elway wore more than one jersey in the September 1994 game? Absent that possibility, I'm really trying to figure out how in the world this jersey is still being auctioned after a review of the information that has been presented here. If Elway did wear only one jersey in that game, why has this jersey not been pulled?

Has there not been enough evidence presented here to show a mistake was likely made when authenticating the jersey? Or, is there not at least enough information to show there are significant questions that need to be answered before a collector spends thousands of dollars on this jersey (the bidding is currently at about $1,700 with the premium with about a week left in the auction)?

Thanks in advance for any additional information that I might be missing.

Sincerely,
Chris

[allstarsplus]

Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Originally Posted by CollectGU
To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave

Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

[EndzoneSports]

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not defending the track record of Mr. Lampson. I have been just as critical of mistakes made by Lou, Bernie Gernay, Grey Flannel, etc.--in fact our position is one of being critical of the hobby's reliance upon 3rd-party authentication as a whole.

Our point was simply stating the deficiencies of the process as a whole. Though imperfect, this is a situation where one (in this case the GUU collecting community) must be careful for what they ask for, lest their request be answered. In the early to mid-90s, when our specific genre of collecting really took off, the rapid increase in demand led to an escalation of prices. With the increase in the amount of money involved came the temptation for the less scrupulous to engage in fraud and deceit. In order to combat those who would perpetrate less than forthright dealings, the concept of 3rd-party authentication arose. Unless, as a collecting community, we can find a way to remove the possibility for fraud/deceit in the items that we covet, the need/demand for 3rd-party authentication will remain.

In an arena of such uncertainty, newer, less experienced collectors--who lack the experience/resources to formulate their own educated opinions--must continue to rely upon the opinions of others as they make their purchasing decisions. Likewise, even amongst more experienced veteran collectors, there remains a segment that seems to sleep better at night, knowing that someone else's opinion agrees with their own before laying out what can be the cash equivalent of a quality used car for "someone else’s dirty shirt" (as my wife puts it).

In the face of continued uncertainty, I offer collectors a bit of advice... No item, unless personally removed from the back of the athlete following a sporting event, can be attributed as such with absolute certainty. As we all know, only a miniscule percentage of game worn/used items make it directly into the hands of collectors in this fashion. As such, some amount of faith in the process is required--faith in the nature of the displayed physical characteristics, faith in the provenance, faith in the opinion of an authenticator, faith in the reputation of the seller. At face value, each of these elements should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism, and reconciled to a point of a "comfort level" for each individual purchaser. Where some whom might rely more heavily upon authentication would state that they "would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole", others would likely just approach such an item as if it had not been authenticated at all, preferring to pass their own judgment on the items' other merits.

How individual collectors/purchasers come to such reconciliation is really a personal matter. I was fortunate enough to have come into this hobby at a time when the items at hand were not the high-dollar commodity that they’ve become today. At the time when I was still an inexperienced newcomer to the hobby, a relative degree of certainty regarding an item’s authenticity was inherent simply by its’ purchase from one of the two or three legitimate dealers who dealt in such obscure collectibles. Fast forward to today, where I feel that my level of knowledge has elevated to a point of being able to almost completely disregard a seller’s unverifiable claims of provenance and/or an authenticator’s opinion, replacing them with my own opinion.

In deference to those collectors caught in between (neither a newcomer nor an expert be), I would again contend that the collective knowledge of the members of this forum is one of the best available resources when uncertainty arises. The fact is that Lou Lampson/MEARS/Grey Flannel/Bernie Gernay/ad infinitum will continue to make mistakes. While some will make fewer than others and some will be better about how those mistakes are rectified, these will still occur. Accepting this, I stand by my assertion that we owe it to the collecting community to share our knowledge and insight.

As a side-bar… In addition to our duty to share information that may be helpful to other collectors, comes the need to share that information responsibly. In my nearly two decades in this hobby’s pursuit, one absolute that I have established is that nearly nothing is sacred. Fonts vary, tagging inconsistencies exist, color variations occur. In offering advice to others, we need to be cautious in the application of absolutes—“always” and “never” are indeed true rarities in this hobby and should be seldom used. About the only absolute in this hobby is that nothing is absolute. Caution should be exercised when pointing out such inconsistencies. Not that such inconsistencies and shouldn't be pointed out as they often discredit an item, however, at times, the existence of these does not necessarily make an item bad/wrong. Often, irresponsible inferences to such "bad/wrong" items can be damaging to otherwise legitimate items.

Regards,