Question About Team Index Bats

[JimCaravello]

JBoosted - you have hit the nail on the head.....a factory documented Clemente that matches personal orders merits a higher price / value ( or a higher grade ) than a team indexed bat. I believe that the 7.5 grade on this bat is very misleading - add the description from the auction house and wala - you create your own inflated market for team index bats. This is really sad.............

[metsbats]

Jim you are absolutely correct.There are two markets out there: hardcore knowledgable collectors like those of us who frequent this forum dedicated to educating one another about what we collect. Then there is the one who the auction houses and authenticators cater to: the folks who will buy something because it was authenticated by a so called expert.

Those in the latter
market will continue pass the index bats and questionable items among those collectors for premium prices while those of us who know better will continue to scratch our heads in disgust.

David

[jboosted92]

I'd like to give MEARS the benefit of the doubt though..because I agree with how they do everything else. However, I do think its the consumers job to do his/her research and not base anything off of just the GRADE so to speak...

Like I've said before I've seen quality A3's with Player characteristics out the ying yang that I would prefer over a7's or a8's without alot of them.

Still say, buyers responsibility.

in conclusion, HIGH Grade doesnt always mean higher value...

[JimCaravello]

You are correct that people need to perform their own due diligence on an item before they purchase it, but unfortunately some people rely on third party authenticators to buy items in the marketplace. You just can't "give the Authenticator the benefit of the doubt" in this situation. As I mentioned above, full disclosure on this item should have included the fact that Clemente ordered 34" bats only ONCE during his career and that was in 1957. If this was disclosed along with the facts of what a Team Index bat really is - I guaranty you that this bat would have sold for a heck of a lot less money........

[jboosted92]

I would blame the description in the auction, more than I would blame the MEARS worksheet. In fact, these auction companies should provide pictures/copys of the letters, like vintage authentics does.

[ChrisCavalier]

I would blame the description in the auction, more than I would blame the MEARS worksheet. In fact, these auction companies should provide pictures/copys of the letters, like vintage authentics does.

Hello jboost-

Thank you for your post. I actually think the point you raise deserves more consideration. Although worksheets are being added in some auctions, the problem is I'm not sure a majority of bidders actually take the time to read all the supportive material or even understand what to look for in them. In fact, I would wager that most potential bidders rely on the auction descriptions and the item's grade as the primary variables when considering whether or not to bid on an item.

With that being said, let's take a look at the Ted Williams bat that is closing tonight in, ironically, the Vintage Authentics auction. Interestingly, the Williams bat bears a remarkable resemblance to the Clemente index bat discussed in this thread. Specifically, the Williams bat closing tonight is an O1 model team index bat that is 34 inches in length and exhibits, according to the auction description, "significant heavy game use". The problem is, as noted in the Letter of Opinion, "34" O1 bats are team index bats, there are no 34" bats in Ted's personal records. Williams did order O1 models several times, not specifically 34" O1 models."

Let's assume then for a moment that a potential bidder is looking at this item and has not read this thread and does not really understand what a team index bat is (likely a fair assumption). Let's also assume that, as I speculated, they are relying primarily on the auction description and the grade to make a determination as to whether or not to bid on the item. The fact is, what they will see is this:

Grade: A6 (a high grade in my opinion given it is a team index bat and Williams never ordered 34" O1 model bats)

Title: Ted Williams 1950-60 Game Used Bat A6

Description:

Standard ash H&B Louisville Slugger O1 signature model bat used by 500 Home Run Club member Ted Williams. The bat's labeling period of 1950-60 covers the last decade of the Splendid Splinter's glorious career which included two of his six batting titles in 1957 and 1958. In a storybook finish, Ted homered at home in Fenway in his final career plate appearance in 1960. The 34" 30 oz bat matches known team index records for shipments and exhibits significant heavy game use with a swelled hitting surface, surface stitch marks, and heavy ball marks across the barrel. The handle has suffered a 10" multiple crack which ended its service in the hands of one of the game's sweetest swingers. Overall this late career Ted gamer earns a final grade of 6.

While I am not saying this was intentional on the part of the auction house, I think if you read the description and look at the grade I believe you will come to a certain conclusion about the bat that you might not conclude if you were aware of all of the factors we discussed in this thread. I think it is great that Mears noted the fact that Williams did not order 34" O1 bats in the "Comments" section of their letter. However, I don't think that is enough to make sure the potential buyer fully understands everything about this bat.

I am happy to hear if others have a different opinion. As for me, I don't think enough information is disclosed in the description (not to mention the reasonably high grade) to help bidders fully understand what they are potentially buying.

Sincerely,
Chris

[earlywynnfan]

I have to put in my 2 cents here: last summer I bought a Bob Doerr bat in one of Masto's cheapie auctions. everything about it looked good, it was graded high. In fact, since i was able to buy it at my typical "insulting bid" level, I was nervous. sure enough, it was an index bat, and it said so right in the MEARS LOA. I called Brian Marren and he took it back right away. It sure would have saved us the trouble if they listed it correctly.

If you're going to bid on $1000+ bats without even reading the paperwork, like Vintage posts, shame on you!

Ken

[JimCaravello]

Hi Ken - this validates my point completely.

If you had known it was an index bat, you would have not bid on it...

QUESTION - SO, every Authenticator that assigns a numerical grade to team index bats should contact every auction house and write the listing description for them and inform every future buyer to let them know what their COA really means?

To assign a numerical grade to a team index bat of say a 6, or 7 is absolutley ludicrous and without substance, ESPECIALLY IF THE PLAYER NEVER ORDERED THAT LENGTH OR MODEL BAT - OR MAYBE THE BAT WAS NOT FLAME GRAINED LIKE MY MATHEWS BAT EXAMPLE AND HIS PERSONAL ORDERS SHOW ONLY FLAME GRAINED BAT ORDERS. It is misleading and it is already been shown that the auction houses take liberties with their descriptions as provided in the examples in this thread to make you think the bat was used by that player.

More and more people are entering this hobby that are uneducated and are relying on these glossy catalogs and descriptions and unfortunately look at a team index bat that is graded a 6, or 7 and equate it to a card grading scale and think they are getting a quality item. It sounds weird - but that is what is happening. The poor Clemente winner thinks his bat is golden because of the description leading you to think it was used by Clemente and the high grade placed on the team index bat by the authenticator. PLEASE Authenticator and Auction House - tell me that Clemente only orders 34" bats once during his career!! Are you afraid that will impact the price you achieve - YES IT WILL........

NO - the answer is the Authenticators should not assign numerical grades to team index bats because savvy - educated collectors like yourself do not want these bats in your collection. As I have stated above, a letter disclosing all the information at hand as to what a team index bat is and how it may or may not be different from a personal order bat is the information that should be provided by an authenticator.

I am very passionate about this, as people are making mistakes and it makes the hobby look bad. These authenticators provide a great service to the hobby, but in my mind, they clearly need to change their approach to grading team index bats.............

Will they change their approach?? I doubt it - they have graded too many bats that are in the marketplace and feel they are doing the correct thing. The only thing we can hope is more people read this thread who are considering team index bats to really understand what they are buying. Jim