Roberto Clemente 1965-68 signed game used bay

[suave1477]

I would just like to congratulate Sammy, my hats off to you. Since I have been on this forum when ever an item was questioned. The seller either never responded or gave a vague response. As for sammy he came right to game used forum and he gave an in depth background on the certification on this bat and added pictures. GOOD JOB SAMMY!!!!

[martindl]

couple of things.

• like the Ed Mathews bat that was discussed last week, is it possible that this bat was ordered by the team and not by Clemente specifically, thus it wouldn't appear in his records? I didn't like the Mathews explanation and personally i wouldn't buy a player bat that doesn't match player records
• the lack of '21' on the knob would also steer me away - i'm sure there are good Clemente's out there without numbers, but its such a mainstay characteristic of his bats, why take a chance on one without them

I'm just glad i got my Clemente years ago. Course, i also thought i paid a fortune years ago - i guess its all relative.

[Yankwood]

Boy, that's alot of money for something he probably never even used.

[MSpecht]

Hi Kevin --

Ultimately, the LOA issued on this bat concluded that the bat was a professional Roberto Clemente signature model baseball bat, Model O16, manufactured by Hillerich & Bradsby Company between the years 1965 and 1968. The LOA correctly stated that the combination of Model Number, length, and weight was undocumented in Clemente's personal factory records during that specific labeling period. The LOA also indicated that the bat exhibits evidence of 'game use,' but stops short of specifically attributing that game use to Roberto Clemente. The references to the bat being consistent in Model, length, and weight with other bats Clemente ordered/used throughout his career, in various combinations, leaves open the possibility that the game use could possibly be attributed to Clemente.

Here are the "between the lines" facts that contributed to this LOA:

A review of Clemente's H & B factory records shows approximately 347 separate bat orders between his first recorded order in early 1954 (M117)and his final order on 9/25/72 (U1). Of those 347 orders, Clemente ordered 34 1/2 inch bats on 26 occasions during the 1950 - 1960 labeling period -- all of those orders were for Model S2 bats, with the exception of a single order of Model U1 bats. During the 1961 - 1964 1/2 labeling period, Clemente's first spring training orders of 1963 were of 34 1/2 inch bats weighing 32 ounces --- six each of Models U1, S2, K55, and O16. No documentation exists of Clemente ordering any model bat in 34 1/2 length exists from April, 1963 to the end of his career.

During the labeling period in which the subject bat was manufactured, 1965 - 1968, 101 separate bat orders by Clemente are documented in H & B records. During that period, the majority of bats ordered by Clemente were Model U1, almost twice as many as the second most ordered model, Model G105. Only four orders of Model O16 bats are documented, occuring in April and May, 1965. All were 36 inches in length and weighed either 33 ounces ((12 bats) or 36 ounces (12 bats0. During the 1965 - 1968 labeling period, all documented Clemente bat orders were either 35 inches (3 orders), 36 inches ( 97 orders) or 36 3/4 inches (1 order) in length. Weights varied between 33 ounces and 39 ounces, with the vast majority being in the 36 - 37 ounce range.

Ultimately, with a bat that is not specifically documented in factory records, when records are available, the evaluation of available information as to the probability of a specific player using a specific bat is the determining factor in the value placed on a bat by a collector. In this case, with the bat pretty far removed from the documented characteristics of Clemente-ordered bats during the 1965 - 1968 labeling period in all areas -- Model, length, and weight -- I personally would look for/need some very persuasive evidence to cause me to pay top market value. In the photos posted, there is no vintage Uniform Numberr 21 on the knob, no grooving of the barrel is evident (a Clemente characteristic on about half of the Clemente bats i have owned and seen), and if the weight was marked as consistently ordered by Clemente, it is long worn off and not discernable in the photo at least. Clemente did consistently request the "widest grain possible' during this labeling period, and this bat appears consistent with that. It would have been useful for the seller to respond with better scans of the LOAs , and more specifically post a legible scan of the Asst. Equipment Manager's LOA.

At any rate, The point of this post was to give an indication of the types of considerations that authenticators, and more importantly, potential buyers, must constantly evaluate. I believe that the LOA is reasonable in that it characterizes the bat as undocumented in factory records, which should cause the potential buyer to research further to determine the bat's value to him.

Good Luck in future collecting'

Mike

[ghostkid]

Mike,

Thanks so very much for all of the information you have provided. Its far more than I ever expected to get when I began this thread. I'm quite impressed with your thorough reply and your knowledge of Clemente gamers.

Kevin