Question About Team Index Bats

[jboosted92]

I cant speak for MEARS, however I can speak for why the price seemed high...

I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..

[jboosted92]

I cant speak for MEARS, however I can speak for why the price seemed high...

I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..

THeres also an argument about Ted Williams index bats... Mastronet months ago sold one that only went for like 1700. And I have heard people claim Ted was meticulious about the size of his bats...

More the reason the "21" stands out on the R.C. bat

[JimCaravello]

It seems to me that Authenticators of Game Used Bats should NOT issue numerical grades for Team Index Bats - PERIOD - especially when there is documentary evidence that the player did not personally order either the model or length of the bat they are grading. A nice letter from the Authenticator stating that it is Team Indexed and disclosing the factual information about the bat which would include the facts compared to personal orders would suffice. The letter should also go on to explain what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and who could have ordered the bat - the team, another player from the same team or another team, a minor league team, etc. This seems practical, pragmatic and logical to me........PLACING A NUMERICAL GRADE ON A TEAM INDEXED BAT IS VERY MISLEADING.........

[ChrisCavalier]

I think the 21 on the knob (vintage marker...i assume) was a clear indication of high-probability it was in R.C.'s hands..

Hello Justin-

Thank you for your thoughts on the topic. I actually considered the "21" on the knob as well and have come to a different conclusion than you have regarding the "high-probability" that it was used by Clemente in a game. Here's my logic:

1) Clemente did not order 34" bats during the 1961-64 label period. As discussed, he only ordered them once in his career in 1957. This bat is a team index bat which, as Jim stated, means it may have been ordered by the team, another player or even a minor league team. In any event, it was not on Clemente personal ordering records.

2) The auction description states "The item reveals evidence of heavy use". Obviously, this bat was used frequently by whoever "wielded" it. If it was used by Clemente (and obviously he would have liked it based on the "heavy use") why did Clemente not order 34" bats ever again during his career? It would seem if he liked this 34" bat he certainly would have ordered them again (remember Clemente played for 8 more years after the 1964 season).

3) It is unfortunate that the "21" on the knob was not shown in the auction description, especially since it has been presented here to support that it was likely used by Clemente. At the end of the day, given the points mentioned above and the fact that a number can be added to a knob at any time, I don't think it the "21" on the knob (even if it looked appropriate) would make me change my mind as to the probability of Clemente using this bat in a game.

Once again, different collectors may have different risk thresholds they are willing to tolerate. However, as I stated before, I think it is important that potential buyers be presented with all the information so they can make informed decisions. I only wonder if the buyer (and under-bidders) understood everything mentioned above when they bid on this bat. If they did, great. If not, I think they may be surprised if they ever try to resell this bat in a more educated marketplace.

Given the points I mentioned above, my question still remains. That is, how does Mears distinguish between a bat with a reasonably high grade (I consider a 7.5 a reasonably high grade) that is a team index bat and one that matches the player's personal H&B factory records? In my mind, there is a big difference between the two. Unfortunately, I don't know if collectors understand this issue enough to know the difference. While some collectors may believe they are getting one thing, I think over time they may come to realize that, as more information becomes available to the general collecting community, these items may not have the same appeal as some believe they will.

Once again, this is only my opinion and I may be one of only a few voices in the wilderness. However, over time, I think these type of questions are going to be asked more and more and this type of analysis will be done more often. As such, I believe in the future collectors will approach the decision making process with more rigor and become more discriminate in their purchasing decisions. We only hope this site can help collectors as things move in that direction. Personally, I wouldn't make any purchase decisions today without getting as much information as possible.

I'm happy to hear other thoughts on the topic.

Sincerely,
Chris

[jboosted92]

I understand what you are saying. I even understand that I probably would rather an A3 bat that was in bad shape (minus points for condition) than an a7 for index.

However, if I was to see the 21 on the knob and somehow determined old patina, and EXACTLY matched other Clemente documented game-used bats "21"'s it would be more believealbe.

Side-note...I didnt know they DIDNt provide a shot of the "21"...I would have had to see it.

[JimCaravello]

JBoosted - you have hit the nail on the head.....a factory documented Clemente that matches personal orders merits a higher price / value ( or a higher grade ) than a team indexed bat. I believe that the 7.5 grade on this bat is very misleading - add the description from the auction house and wala - you create your own inflated market for team index bats. This is really sad.............

[metsbats]

Jim you are absolutely correct.There are two markets out there: hardcore knowledgable collectors like those of us who frequent this forum dedicated to educating one another about what we collect. Then there is the one who the auction houses and authenticators cater to: the folks who will buy something because it was authenticated by a so called expert.

Those in the latter
market will continue pass the index bats and questionable items among those collectors for premium prices while those of us who know better will continue to scratch our heads in disgust.

David

[jboosted92]

I'd like to give MEARS the benefit of the doubt though..because I agree with how they do everything else. However, I do think its the consumers job to do his/her research and not base anything off of just the GRADE so to speak...

Like I've said before I've seen quality A3's with Player characteristics out the ying yang that I would prefer over a7's or a8's without alot of them.

Still say, buyers responsibility.

in conclusion, HIGH Grade doesnt always mean higher value...

[JimCaravello]

You are correct that people need to perform their own due diligence on an item before they purchase it, but unfortunately some people rely on third party authenticators to buy items in the marketplace. You just can't "give the Authenticator the benefit of the doubt" in this situation. As I mentioned above, full disclosure on this item should have included the fact that Clemente ordered 34" bats only ONCE during his career and that was in 1957. If this was disclosed along with the facts of what a Team Index bat really is - I guaranty you that this bat would have sold for a heck of a lot less money........