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  1. #11
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    I would blame the description in the auction, more than I would blame the MEARS worksheet. In fact, these auction companies should provide pictures/copys of the letters, like vintage authentics does.

  2. #12

    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Quote Originally Posted by jboosted92
    I would blame the description in the auction, more than I would blame the MEARS worksheet. In fact, these auction companies should provide pictures/copys of the letters, like vintage authentics does.
    Hello jboost-

    Thank you for your post. I actually think the point you raise deserves more consideration. Although worksheets are being added in some auctions, the problem is I'm not sure a majority of bidders actually take the time to read all the supportive material or even understand what to look for in them. In fact, I would wager that most potential bidders rely on the auction descriptions and the item's grade as the primary variables when considering whether or not to bid on an item.

    With that being said, let's take a look at the Ted Williams bat that is closing tonight in, ironically, the Vintage Authentics auction. Interestingly, the Williams bat bears a remarkable resemblance to the Clemente index bat discussed in this thread. Specifically, the Williams bat closing tonight is an O1 model team index bat that is 34 inches in length and exhibits, according to the auction description, "significant heavy game use". The problem is, as noted in the Letter of Opinion, "34" O1 bats are team index bats, there are no 34" bats in Ted's personal records. Williams did order O1 models several times, not specifically 34" O1 models."

    Let's assume then for a moment that a potential bidder is looking at this item and has not read this thread and does not really understand what a team index bat is (likely a fair assumption). Let's also assume that, as I speculated, they are relying primarily on the auction description and the grade to make a determination as to whether or not to bid on the item. The fact is, what they will see is this:

    Grade: A6 (a high grade in my opinion given it is a team index bat and Williams never ordered 34" O1 model bats)

    Title: Ted Williams 1950-60 Game Used Bat A6

    Description:

    Standard ash H&B Louisville Slugger O1 signature model bat used by 500 Home Run Club member Ted Williams. The bat's labeling period of 1950-60 covers the last decade of the Splendid Splinter's glorious career which included two of his six batting titles in 1957 and 1958. In a storybook finish, Ted homered at home in Fenway in his final career plate appearance in 1960. The 34" 30 oz bat matches known team index records for shipments and exhibits significant heavy game use with a swelled hitting surface, surface stitch marks, and heavy ball marks across the barrel. The handle has suffered a 10" multiple crack which ended its service in the hands of one of the game's sweetest swingers. Overall this late career Ted gamer earns a final grade of 6.

    While I am not saying this was intentional on the part of the auction house, I think if you read the description and look at the grade I believe you will come to a certain conclusion about the bat that you might not conclude if you were aware of all of the factors we discussed in this thread. I think it is great that Mears noted the fact that Williams did not order 34" O1 bats in the "Comments" section of their letter. However, I don't think that is enough to make sure the potential buyer fully understands everything about this bat.

    I am happy to hear if others have a different opinion. As for me, I don't think enough information is disclosed in the description (not to mention the reasonably high grade) to help bidders fully understand what they are potentially buying.

    Sincerely,
    Chris

  3. #13
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    It seems to me that Authenticators of Game Used Bats should NOT issue numerical grades for Team Index Bats - PERIOD - especially when there is documentary evidence that the player did not personally order either the model or length of the bat they are grading. A nice letter from the Authenticator stating that it is Team Indexed and disclosing the factual information about the bat which would include the facts compared to personal orders would suffice. The letter should also go on to explain what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and who could have ordered the bat - the team, another player from the same team or another team, a minor league team, etc. This seems practical, pragmatic and logical to me........PLACING A NUMERICAL GRADE ON A TEAM INDEXED BAT IS VERY MISLEADING.........

  4. #14
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    I have to put in my 2 cents here: last summer I bought a Bob Doerr bat in one of Masto's cheapie auctions. everything about it looked good, it was graded high. In fact, since i was able to buy it at my typical "insulting bid" level, I was nervous. sure enough, it was an index bat, and it said so right in the MEARS LOA. I called Brian Marren and he took it back right away. It sure would have saved us the trouble if they listed it correctly.

    If you're going to bid on $1000+ bats without even reading the paperwork, like Vintage posts, shame on you!

    Ken

  5. #15
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Hi Ken - this validates my point completely.

    If you had known it was an index bat, you would have not bid on it...

    QUESTION - SO, every Authenticator that assigns a numerical grade to team index bats should contact every auction house and write the listing description for them and inform every future buyer to let them know what their COA really means?

    To assign a numerical grade to a team index bat of say a 6, or 7 is absolutley ludicrous and without substance, ESPECIALLY IF THE PLAYER NEVER ORDERED THAT LENGTH OR MODEL BAT - OR MAYBE THE BAT WAS NOT FLAME GRAINED LIKE MY MATHEWS BAT EXAMPLE AND HIS PERSONAL ORDERS SHOW ONLY FLAME GRAINED BAT ORDERS. It is misleading and it is already been shown that the auction houses take liberties with their descriptions as provided in the examples in this thread to make you think the bat was used by that player.

    More and more people are entering this hobby that are uneducated and are relying on these glossy catalogs and descriptions and unfortunately look at a team index bat that is graded a 6, or 7 and equate it to a card grading scale and think they are getting a quality item. It sounds weird - but that is what is happening. The poor Clemente winner thinks his bat is golden because of the description leading you to think it was used by Clemente and the high grade placed on the team index bat by the authenticator. PLEASE Authenticator and Auction House - tell me that Clemente only orders 34" bats once during his career!! Are you afraid that will impact the price you achieve - YES IT WILL........

    NO - the answer is the Authenticators should not assign numerical grades to team index bats because savvy - educated collectors like yourself do not want these bats in your collection. As I have stated above, a letter disclosing all the information at hand as to what a team index bat is and how it may or may not be different from a personal order bat is the information that should be provided by an authenticator.

    I am very passionate about this, as people are making mistakes and it makes the hobby look bad. These authenticators provide a great service to the hobby, but in my mind, they clearly need to change their approach to grading team index bats.............

    Will they change their approach?? I doubt it - they have graded too many bats that are in the marketplace and feel they are doing the correct thing. The only thing we can hope is more people read this thread who are considering team index bats to really understand what they are buying. Jim

  6. #16
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats


    What if you bought a Ferrari DL504... and you said "Hey I thought I was getting a genuine Ferriari..but then came to find out a DL504 was a model reproduced by Chrysler, but was allowed to use the Ferrari Name"


    Buyer Beware ---- know your stuff

  7. #17
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    GUU and Forum Members - I know we were all scratching our heads when a Team Indexed Roberto Clemente bat sold in a previous Mastro Auction this year for over $6,000. A MEARS Representative had indicated on their website after the auction that there was now Market Acceptance for Team Index bats from the collecting community and that prices were being driven up in the market because of this so called "Market Acceptance". I never believed that for a moment and as was posted here on GUU and The Forum, I felt that the grade of A7.5 for a bat like that caused two uneducated buyers to go crazy for a bat that "maybe" Clemente actually even saw in the bat rack.

    The results from last night's auction prove my point. Last night, three Team Indexed major star bats sold relatively cheaply. Of the three, there was a Clemente grade A7.5 that aslo has a 21 on the knob - here is the description:

    The Pittsburgh Pirates' fortunes waned immediately following the squad's 1960 World Series triumph over the New York Yankees. With second-division finishes in three of the four seasons that followed their improbable Fall Classic title, the Bucs suddenly had no answers. Right fielder Roberto Clemente, however, remained the club's pillar, pacing Pittsburgh in each of those trying campaigns with batting marks of .351, .312, .320 and .339. Presented here is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O16" signature model bat wielded by the tragic hero during the 1961-1964 labeling period. This 34", 31-1/2-oz. white ash weapon was turned to the specifications of the Hall of Famer, as factory records reveal shipments of both 34" models and "O16" bats to the Puerto Rican superstar. While no bats with the above-mentioned specifications were shipped directly to Clemente during the '61-'64 manufacturing period, Pirates team records show shipments of these models as team index bats. The offered, uncracked prize has a defined and legible centerbrand and barrel stampings, and shows heavy use, with ball, bat-rack, stitch and surface marks throughout. Additionally, there is scoring upon the hitting surface, as well as checking about the barrel and a vintage black marker notation of Clemente's number "21" on the knob. Graded A-7.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

    FINAL PRICE - $2,405 - a far cry from the $6,000 brought for the previous Clemente mentioned above. I guaranty you this bat would have brough MUCH less without the #21 on the knob........

    The two other Team Indexed bats that sold were a Ted Williams bat and a Mickey Mantle bat. Here are the descriptions for those bats:

    Ted Williams

    Presented is a Hillerich & Bradsby "O1" signature model bat turned for Ted Williams during the final decade of his illustrious playing career. Though the model number is not consistent with those of the bats actually wielded by the Splendid Splinter, this 34", 33-1/2-oz. white ash war club matches Boston Red Sox team index records during the latter portion of the 1950-1960 labeling period. The uncracked item reveals minimal use, retaining its radiant, furniture-like finish, with a few faint surface marks. Graded A-6 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS.
    Mears LOA only. FINAL PRICE - $693 - doesn't sould like Market Acceptance to me...............


    Mickey Mantle

    As the 1960's unfolded, it was business as usual in the American League, as the New York Yankees secured each of the circuit's first five pennants with the usual suspect—Mickey Mantle—administering the bulk of the offensive damage. Here offered is a Bronx Bombers team index bat turned to the specifications of the switch-hitting slugger. Issued during the 1961-1964 labeling period, this 35", 32-oz. "K55" signature model weapon boasts a rich, deep-brown patina that nicely compliments the bat's deep, defined centerbrand and barrel stampings. The item shows significant use, with cleat, bat-rack and surface marks throughout, as well as a professioanlly repaired handle crack and checking about the hitting surface. Graded A-6.5 by MEARS. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS, John Taube/PSA DNA.

    FINAL PRICE - $2,186 - no doubt, the 35" length of this bat raised the price of this piece - but still, I don't really think you could call this "Market Acceptance"...........

    Hopefully collectors still realize ( and new collectors are learning )what a Team Indexed Bat really is - and the fact that those bats typically have different lengths, weights and grains when compared to actual Player Ordered factory documented bats - and most importantly, they probably were not used by that specific player and it doesn't matter if the bat grades A2 or A9 - or has any grade on it from any authentication company - it's a Team Indexed bat that could have been ordered by the Team or even another player and WAS NOT ordered by the player himself........I don't think the market ever started accepting Team Index bats suddenly this year and as mentioned above, the Clemente that sold earlier this year for over $6,000 was the result of two uneducated buyers driving the price up.....

    Jim - jcaravello@nc.rr.com

  8. #18
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    I, for one, was glad to see that they listed the bats as "index" right in the title, instead of me having to search the fine print. It should have always been that way, but it hasn't.

    Ken

  9. #19
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    Nov 2005
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    164

    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Several years ago, I was burned by a major auction house that did not even disclose that the bat did not even match factory records. Instead, I received COA's from two different authenticators that it was a game used bat from the player. The bat's lenght, weight and pine tar matched bats the player normally used. The model number did not match the model number the player normally used for that year.

    Needless to say, I was not happy about the nondisclosure. Whould I have bought the bat had I been told the truth, yes. But not for the price I paid. From now on, I insist on reviewing all COA's before I bid on a bat.

    One question that comes to mind is how do we know for sure that a team did not order a bat for the player? We all assume that the bat records are accurate and that if the records show a player did not order a bat and the team ordered the bat, then there is no way the player used the bat....Why do we make this assumption that team index bats were not used by players?

  10. #20
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    Jan 1970
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    Re: Question About Team Index Bats

    Hi SSB15 - great question about Team Index Bats. I would refer you to the two blogs I have written in the Experts Corner on Team Index bats. I would also perform a search on the Forum for Team Index Bats and there are many good threads with relevant information that I think will help you.

    Once you read the blogs on the Mathews bat I looked at, I think you will see in that particular case, the index bat in question was unlike other bats Eddie personally ordered during that time period. That bat purpotedly had specific language in the Team Index records that it was ordered for Eddie Mathews. My problem with the bat was that it wasn't anything like the bats he ordered himself and I felt that there was a remote possibility that he actually used the bat. That would not be a bat I would be comfortable with in my collection.

    You have to make a determination on what you are comfortable with and the examination of attributes of individual players are very important in determining if a team index ordered bat was actually used by the player. An example - I feel that if a player is regularly ordering 35" - 32 ounce bats and there is a team index bat that is 34" and 30 ounces in weight - I find it hard to belive that the player used the bat - especially if he never perosnally ordered 34" bats.

    At the end of the day, you have to examine everything that is factual and is available and make a determination if the bat is for you.

    Let me know how else I can help and please e-mail me at jcaravello@nc.rr.com with any further questions. Jim

 

 

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