Mastro Winslow Helmet- Am I Nuts?

[Eric]

I have been told by Doug Allen that Lou doesn't now, nor has he ever had a financial interest in the winslow helmet.

[kingjammy24]

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

- mastro said it was lou who changed the facemask.

- the facemask change occurred after the helmet arrived in mastro's possession, after mastro took the pics and after lou wrote the loa.

- they said lou has no financial interest in the helmet.

it would be insane to think lou could've changed the facemask without letting the consigner know beforehand. (it's apparent he didn't let mastro know until after he did it).

all of this begs the question of why? if lou realized, after the fact, that the facemask was incorrect why would he even care to change it? he's already authenticated it, he's been paid for the authentication and yet wants to change the facemask for some reason? why? there's a complete lack of motive. who paid for/obtained the new facemask?

it's one of the most bizarre things i've heard in this hobby. sorry but i don't believe lou was sitting around, having completed his work and been paid, and suddenly, without telling the auction house, decided to see if he could dig up and apply a 3-bar facemask to a helmet that didn't belong to him and that was already in mid-auction.
the only story that seems plausible to me is that the consigner realized the issue after they had submitted it and asked lou to see if he could change the facemask. given that the pics and description were already online for a 2-bar mask i don't really see the point.

very, very strange. lou has no motive for changing the mask yet was purportedly the one to do it. mastro had no clue he did it. so you've gone a rogue authenticator changing items without informing the auction house and the best scenario is a consigner with a weak motive? maybe the consigner is a mastro employee? after all, if lou's not the consigner, can't change it without the consigner's consent, and the helmet was in mastro's possession the whole time....

something tells me i'd never make it on Law & Order.

rudy.

[Eric]

- initially, mastro didn't know that the facemask was changed. they even said the 2-bar and 3-bar mask were the same. the change hadn't even occurred to them. once made aware, they had to "investigate" what happened. this seems to indicate that they weren't the ones who initiated or requested the change nor were they even aware that it had occurred.

- it was then either the consigner or lou who took the initiative and neither of them told mastro.

rudy.

I think Doug Allen knew, but the people I was talking to didn't know. That's why they were as suprised as I was that it didn't match what was described...

If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask. I don't know why it didn't occur to him that it then wouldn't match what''s in the auction catalog.

Also, I don't understand how they could list it as the 2 bar helmet and leave it there getting bids saying it's geniune, and then switch the facemask.

An uninformed person pointed the finger at lampson. He works for the auction house. Apparently if the auction house asks him to replace the facemask, he does it. Allen said he asked Lampson to make the change.

The new facemask will be mentioned on the Mostro listing tomorrow.

Also, here's why I think Allen is the consignor.

I was originally offered this helmet by an auction house who traded Mastro a HOF game used jersey for it. They offered it to me as being a gem from the Duke Hott collection signed off by Lou. Two of the biggest names in the hobby. They wanted $5500 for it. I looked at the helmet and didn't like the facemask on that era helmet, so I bounced it back to the auction house, who eventually could not match the helmet style and facemask (1985-87) in a photo, so they bounced it back to Mastro for credit. Apparently, Mastro has had the helmet for a year. If Mastro was making trades, doesn't it seem plausible that it's their piece? I don't know, maybe I'm making one too many assumptions.

What I don't get is, once it got bounced from the auction house back to Mastro, how could Lou write a letter on it if he knew the 2 bar facemask was bad?

I'll just email him. Oh wait....

[CollectGU]

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

[Eric]

Please clarify Eric. It was Mastro who asked Lou to find them a new facemask?

Thanks,
Dave

Yes, look at the last post on page 2 of this thread where I describe Doug Allen's voicemail. He explains that he asked Lou to replace the facemask since they all determined it was bad (despite the fact that the auction listing says it's good and comes with a lou lampson loa)

[kingjammy24]

"If I had to guess, I'd say Doug Allen is the consignor and asked Lou to switch out the facemask."

eric, here's what mastro says:

"Mastro Auctions is a consignment auction house. Many auctions are run by dealers offering material they own. And in addition to offering an infinitely inferior service, these auctions expose consignors to numerous unreconcilable conflicts of interest."

if mastro feels that running items owned by the auction house owners is an "unreconcilable conflict of interest" then it's difficult to think they'd engage in such activities. given his education and vocation as a cpa, i'd wager doug's taken a class or two in ethics and as such knows that these sorts of activities are a no-no.

the thing is, lou's very hard to get a hold of. his contact info isn't given to the average outside consigner. if the consigner wasn't related to mastro, then you'd think it'd be difficult for them to contact lou to tell him to change the facemask. if they did want to contact lou, then they'd likely have to do it by passing a message to him via mastro in which case mastro would be aware of the request. they were not. however, mastro apparently doesn't believe in allowing employees to consign items. lou, of course, wouldn't alter someone's item without being asked. so when you put all 3 together, it's all very bizarre. if mastro is truly a "pure consignment house", then the consigner would be an outsider. as an outsider, how did he contact lou without going through mastro? strange stuff.

rudy.

[Eric]

Again, the people I was talking to at Mastro didn't know that Doug Allen had asked Lou to switch out the facemask.

Doug said it wasn't properly noted, which was a miscommunication and caused the wrong photos and description to be listed on the site.

[Eric]

Couple of exchanges with Doug Allen this morning. He has been very quick to get back to me, so i thank him for that.

In the first email he described that his firm (Mastro) acquired the winslow helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection.

When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years.

He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now.

I responded with this question:

Doug

You said your firm (Mastro) acquired the helmet as part of the Duke Hott collection. So that means you have a financial stake in this helmet, correct?

Thanks
Eric

His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid.

That's the update.
Eric

[kingjammy24]

"To be honest, I wasn't at all aware that their was a problem with an auction house selling its own memorabilia."

for the same reason an authenticator isn't supposed to authenticate items they own, an auction house shouldn't offer items they own. (people point to john taube but i don't believe taube actually grades the bats he sells. at least that's what he told me when i asked him to grade a bat i bought from him). judging by their behavior you'd think the auction houses weren't aware it's a problem either. my guess is they know it is and simply don't care. ethics don't come cheap. must be a sweet deal to be a seller who can dump his items into his own auction house and also conveniently employ the authenticator looking at your item. surprising that lou positively authenticated his bosses' item. couldn't see that one coming. i wonder if the president of mastro has the ability to see the the bid maximums on his item?

"what is the difference from changing the appearance of a helmet vs a bat or jersey? where is the line drawn?"

maybe the line isn't drawn at all. after all, mastro publically states they "aren't dealers" and feel that dealers "putting items they own into their own auctions is a unreconcilable conflict of interest" yet they do it anyway. by the president no less! it's one thing to have a low level employee secretly subverting company policies but if the guy at the top is publically doing it, then you can just imagine what a stellar example he's setting for the rest of the employees. additionally, mastro allows its employees to bid on items. what a wonderful situation doug has set up - mastro owned items, in a mastro auction, being bid on by mastro employees. thumbs up doug! what a level playing field that is.
mastro could've kept it all fair by simply choosing to consign the helmet to AMI, GFC, Lelands, etc as a private consigner. apparently, they thought it better to keep it in-house thereby making their own policies nothing but meaningless drivel.

eric, something still doesn't make sense:

"When it became apparent that the facemask was incorrect, Doug requested the replacement be found. He said this was a lengthy search, as it took almost 2 years. He said the switch was entered into their system with "notes to 're-shoot' the photo and 'document the replacement mask.'" and those requests were not followed through. They are making attempts to fix those things now."

doug allen realized the facemask was wrong almost 2 yrs ago but lampson wrote an loa on it for doug within the last 2 months and his loa made no mention of the facemask issue. if doug knew the facemask was bad almost 2 years ago, then why does lampson's loa fail to mention this?
it has nothing to do with the replacement mask and new photos. lou's loa/description isn't a year old. it was maybe 2 months old. doug KNEW the facemask issue existed 2 months ago when he gave the helmet to lou. whether he found a replacement or not, the description should've stated the facemask issue. doug knew about it when he consigned it and yet the info didn't show up.

"His response was that he has been "transparent as to what has transpired as it relates to the helmet" and that I have all of the information. I should use that information to decide whether or not to bid."

how very forthcoming. whenever encountering questionable items or practices, i've always loved the "don't like it? don't bid" explanation. right up there with "don't bother me" and "i'm an expert".

rudy.

[lon lewis]

For Eric I have been following this thread with some fascination, just out of curiosity,I would like to know what year, if you know, this helmet is supposed to be from. It seems to me that if it's from a season prior to 1985 the mask should have the older "thicker" bars rather than the RS (reverse strap)"thinner" bars version. If the helmet is supposed to be from 1985 forward then it should have the RS version of the facemask. If that's the case why did it take 2 years to find something that's a stock item?