Edd Roush Records

[jboosted92]

I agree and believe that we are saying the same thing....do your homework. When considering all of the bats listed in the two posts immediately above , many factors must be taken into consideration.....I believe, however, that if these bats were as widely used as some people would have you believe, the evidence would be greater than exists today. As pointed out above, photos of Model 125 bats can be found "all over the place," yet 40k and 250 photos are rarely seen. I suggest that consideration must be given to that fact, as it currently exists. The ledger records referenced in my post comprise ALL of the Hall of Famer records that have been documented to date. Yes, 40k and 250 bats are referenced in them, but look at the numbers -- a couple references for each in over 700 available records.

All I am suggesting is that collectors cannot automatically assume that any bat that has been 'authenticated' as a possible professional bat is automatically that --the evidence isn't there to support such an assumption as reasonable. To the contrary, there is evidence to suggest the opposite -- that the use of 40k and 250 bats in the professional leagues was more of a rarity than being the norm, and likely, from the documented evidence, could not even be termed commonplace.

So again, do your own research.. Are there 40k and 250 and Zinn Beck and Spalding and Kren and Reach and other bats out there that were used by professional players in professional games? Absolutely! Do as many of these professionally-used alternate-brand and alternate-model bats exist as their non-professional (retail) counterparts? The existing evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of these bats are "non-professional."

So where does that leave the collector? If one is astute and can match up other attributes of a bat with known, documented game -use characteristics of a specific player, documented evidence of ordering patterns in factory records, and manufacturing nuances thought to pertain primarily to professional model bats, then the opportunity exists to find some real gems.

Good luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

Well written. Couldnt have said it better myself... Photos and attribution are key... (or Ledgers..but I aint seen 'em... yet )

[ghostkid]

Hey guys, what a great thread!!! It's fantastic to see so many people willing to share their thoughts and insights on these non-traditional bats. Mike, the specifics you've provided on 40K and 250 bats as they relate to shipping records are truly appreciated.

For me, much of the enjoyment in this hobby is focused on finding the hidden gems. I really get a kick out of discovering a seldom-seen bat and researching its history. It can often be tedious and difficult to find information, but it's certainly worth it in the end. IMHO, the non-traditional bats are where one can find some very nice hidden gems...there are so many collectors searching out the traditional H&B 125 bats sans inch marks on the knob that you don't find too many of those hidden gems anymore. The flip side of that coin is that, while somewhat rare, the non-traditional bats don't have a big of a following and offer some real bargains.

Thanks again...and please let me know if you ever see a picture of Eddie Collins holding a 40K bat.

Kevin Kasper

[ksfarmboy]

Hey Kevin I went through some of my old catalogs last night and found an Edd Roush Spalding block letter pre 1926 bat that was 32 1/2 inches and weighed 41 1/2oz. This bat was a non catalogued bat and "came from Heinie Groh's daughter". It appears this is closer to the 40k measurements. I'm not making any assumptions to game used, just food for thought.
A picture of it is in the December 2005 Mastro Catalog, page 147.

I also looked up Cooper in my Baseball Encyclopedia and found just one player during this period and he was a pitcher for the Pirates. He did have several at bats though, I believe over 100 during 1923.

Clint

[jboosted92]

I agree and believe that we are saying the same thing....do your homework. When considering all of the bats listed in the two posts immediately above , many factors must be taken into consideration.....I believe, however, that if these bats were as widely used as some people would have you believe, the evidence would be greater than exists today. As pointed out above, photos of Model 125 bats can be found "all over the place," yet 40k and 250 photos are rarely seen. I suggest that consideration must be given to that fact, as it currently exists. The ledger records referenced in my post comprise ALL of the Hall of Famer records that have been documented to date. Yes, 40k and 250 bats are referenced in them, but look at the numbers -- a couple references for each in over 700 available records.

All I am suggesting is that collectors cannot automatically assume that any bat that has been 'authenticated' as a possible professional bat is automatically that --the evidence isn't there to support such an assumption as reasonable. To the contrary, there is evidence to suggest the opposite -- that the use of 40k and 250 bats in the professional leagues was more of a rarity than being the norm, and likely, from the documented evidence, could not even be termed commonplace.

So again, do your own research.. Are there 40k and 250 and Zinn Beck and Spalding and Kren and Reach and other bats out there that were used by professional players in professional games? Absolutely! Do as many of these professionally-used alternate-brand and alternate-model bats exist as their non-professional (retail) counterparts? The existing evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of these bats are "non-professional."

So where does that leave the collector? If one is astute and can match up other attributes of a bat with known, documented game -use characteristics of a specific player, documented evidence of ordering patterns in factory records, and manufacturing nuances thought to pertain primarily to professional model bats, then the opportunity exists to find some real gems.

Good luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

Mike,

I think the best example of considering rarity/interest/value would be a Joe Jackson Kork Grip 40K bat that sold in Mastonets auction about 8 months ago. Now 8 mos. ago is 8 mos. ago, but after hammer and consign fees the final value was just under $20,000. Now this was a 1914-15 model (Early in Joes career), it didnt have his typical flame-treated style, however, there is a beatiful pic of Joe with a Kork Grip bat in hand.

Now to my point, If a well documented game-time Jackson bat would get 100k or so. and this bat (8 months ago, photo-driven, but not fully jackson attributed..meaning flame temp) could command close to $20k, I'd say there is a fair market in some of the higher named bats...

I personally own a 1914-15 Ty Cobb 40k Bat with Photo Attribution, Black tape remnants in the same wrap style as Cobbs, numerous cleat marks, signigicant use, heavy ball marks, and Wide-grain style.

Now I know the bats value isnt a $100-125k Cobb style side-written bat, but I think its fair to say, bats like mine and similar ones CAN command a nice price DUE to there attribution and rarity..

[MSpecht]

I again agree with you, and I believe we are both pointing in the same direction....for many of these bats where manufacturer's factory records are not available, or, as in the case of H & B, factory records suggest less (much less) than widespread use of certain models, a collector must go to an individual player's personal game use characteristics, such as comparison of model, size, etc of known game used bats, tape and other preparation patterns, game use provenance, and the like. And, most importantly, the collector must educate himself to come to a rational and reasoned conclusion as to the probability that a specific bat was ever in a specific player's hands. As factory records become more and more available (and the holders of records become more and more willing to release them to the general collecting public), that task becomes much easier.

I can't begin to tell you how often I have had a bat in one hand, all existing factory records (comfortably 99% of the player's total records) in the other hand, and a Letter of Authenticity and worksheet in front of me and tried to reconcile the three to no avail. To see a bat receive a grade of say A7, which would translate , in the collecting public's mind, to a fairly high probability that the player had actually used the bat, and have it not even come close to matching a player's documented factory records, gives cause to wonder. How many of you would knowingly pay around of $7,000.00 for a post-war Hall of Famer's bat that was clearly a team index bat that, based on documented career ordering patterns, had less than a one percent chance of ever being used (or even seen) by the player himself? Some would have you believe that such a purchase demonstrates a growing acceptance of team index bats. Well. it also might be indicative of an uneducated buyer, a flawed grading process, and an auction house that is somewhat fanciful in item descriptions. If the buyer actually just wanted a bat with proper labeling that had the HOF'ers name on the end, but was used by some unknown Major or Minor League player (or batboy), I would suggest he'd be ahead of the game by finding a college bat that matched the player's factory records as being more representative of his actual game bats, and save about $6500.00 in the process.

Educate yourself, and if you are going to seek the assistance of an authenticator, when you ask them, "Why," don't accept an answer of, "Why not?'

Best of luck in future collecting. Thanks for all the thoughts that have been posted by everyone throughout this thread...it's been one of the real interesting ones.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[jboosted92]

I again agree with you, and I believe we are both pointing in the same direction....for many of these bats where manufacturer's factory records are not available, or, as in the case of H & B, factory records suggest less (much less) than widespread use of certain models, a collector must go to an individual player's personal game use characteristics, such as comparison of model, size, etc of known game used bats, tape and other preparation patterns, game use provenance, and the like. And, most importantly, the collector must educate himself to come to a rational and reasoned conclusion as to the probability that a specific bat was ever in a specific player's hands. As factory records become more and more available (and the holders of records become more and more willing to release them to the general collecting public), that task becomes much easier.

I can't begin to tell you how often I have had a bat in one hand, all existing factory records (comfortably 99% of the player's total records) in the other hand, and a Letter of Authenticity and worksheet in front of me and tried to reconcile the three to no avail. To see a bat receive a grade of say A7, which would translate , in the collecting public's mind, to a fairly high probability that the player had actually used the bat, and have it not even come close to matching a player's documented factory records, gives cause to wonder. How many of you would knowingly pay around of $7,000.00 for a post-war Hall of Famer's bat that was clearly a team index bat that, based on documented career ordering patterns, had less than a one percent chance of ever being used (or even seen) by the player himself? Some would have you believe that such a purchase demonstrates a growing acceptance of team index bats. Well. it also might be indicative of an uneducated buyer, a flawed grading process, and an auction house that is somewhat fanciful in item descriptions. If the buyer actually just wanted a bat with proper labeling that had the HOF'ers name on the end, but was used by some unknown Major or Minor League player (or batboy), I would suggest he'd be ahead of the game by finding a college bat that matched the player's factory records as being more representative of his actual game bats, and save about $6500.00 in the process.

Educate yourself, and if you are going to seek the assistance of an authenticator, when you ask them, "Why," don't accept an answer of, "Why not?'

Best of luck in future collecting. Thanks for all the thoughts that have been posted by everyone throughout this thread...it's been one of the real interesting ones.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

Mike,

Not to bring up an ol' topic. But I have been doing some research on the Kork Grip L.S. bats. They were patented (according to the bat) in Sept. 1914. which would put there first labeling period 1911-16 )(14-16..what-have-you). I have seen store model signature 40ks for 1917-21 and 21-31. but not for the 11-16 label period.

Has anyone else seen a 1911-16 40k sig model STORE MODEL?

I have search and searched to no avail. from what I have heard its only been seen in the post 1916 catalogs...

I ask, thinking that possibly the early sig 40k's were available to the pro's only. Possibly due it being the highest quality wood they offerend... and its price.