Legendary: Frank Chance jersey

[kingjammy24]

wow. where to start with this. doug allen has outdone himself this time. currently, legendary is auctioning off a 1911-12 Frank Chance game-used jersey. here it is: http://www.legendaryauctions.com/Lot...x?lotid=101753

mastro estimates this jersey to go for around $50-$60k. the description, in part, reads "The then-trademark deep blue "C" measures 5-1/4" and is proudly situated on the left chest portion of the majestic garment. (Affixing thread color variations and the extensive edge wear suggest strongly that the "C" is original and that the Bear logo was replaced after initial season usage. Both felt identifiers are definitely from the period with period style affixing, and they are correct in composition, size, color hue, and detailing.)"

got that? legendary (aka doug allen who ran mastro for years until it shut down amidst an FBI investigation) believes that the "C" is original and the bear logo "..was replaced after initial season usage". hmm. yeah..the problem is that doug already sold this shirt in dec 2004 and it didn't have the logo it has now. here it is from when doug sold it in 2004:



so when doug now states that the "C" is original and the bear logo was replaced sometime around 1913, he knew it had actually been replaced within the last couple of years. how? because mastro was the one who requested the alteration! dave bushing chimes in: http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...ndary+Auctions

"About three years ago, this shirt came into Mastro's and was all original save the front had a modern restoration of the Cubs logo. They (Mastro's) had, at the time, an all original Jack Pfiester shirt of the same era and style that had an original Cubs logo still attached. I know and use one of the best seamstresses in the business. As such, they (Mastro's) asked me to take the two jerseys and have the front logos switched. The Pfiester shirt was sold with the modern logo and the original logo was affixed to the Frank Chance. The Chance is restored with original vintage parts so everything on the Chance shirt is Cubs and of the era, just that it was reaffixed within the last two years."

none of that appears in the current mastro description. the legendary description hides doug's alteration as well as the details behind it. sure i know selling altered items without disclosure is a mastro trademark (after all, the FBI didn't go in because bill and doug were running a wonderfully clean shop), but its disheartening to see that doug has taken the same old bullsh*t practices with him to his new auction house. maybe doug has a penchant for FBI investigations and is gunning for legendary to follow mastro's footsteps?
a $60k jersey and the buyer still apparently doesn't deserve to learn the full truth behind the shirt from the person who knows it best. for others who've purchased from mastro and legendary, it almost makes you wonder what other alterations doug has failed to disclose and/or "forget" the origins of, etc.

bid with confidence!

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

"none of that appears in the current mastro description"

i meant in the current legendary description. mastro, legendary, all the same anyway i guess.

anyway, another interesting facet to it all...i was perusing this article, which was written in 2006:
http://www.psacard.com/articles/arti...eid=314&type=1

in it doug mentions personally owning a frank chance uniform. what are the odds right? well in the current legendary auction print catalog its listed that the frank chance shirt is owned by a legendary employee. for those following at home, when folks were bidding on the frank chance uniform at mastro a few years ago, apparently they were bidding against the head of the auction house. holy smokes, doug won. better luck next time bidders. a part of me wonders if anyone else really ever had a shot. i mean, how on earth are you supposed to bid against a guy who controls the entire process? so then doug takes the jersey to bushing who alters it. i believe thats what doug would call "maximizing the grade". then sticks his jersey into his own auction and when writing up the description for it he develops temporary amnesia (or is it selective amnesia). he completely forgets that only a couple years ago he asked bushing to alter the logo. woops. no need to reveal that.

legendary's own policies state "15. Although Legendary Auctions employees, executives and principals are prohibited from bidding in the auction, from time to time they will own items that are consigned to the auction. In those cases (1) It will be clearly disclosed...". clearly on the print catalog but apparently it's not mentioned at all online. nowhere in the frank chance listing online does it mention that, by the way, the president of the auction house owns the jersey. and by the way, mastro uses max/ceiling bids. good luck with that setup.

honestly, i can't believe people still operate like this. mastro shuts down and apparently none of it phases doug in the least. business as usual. anyway, to end off on a funny note, here are a couple of lines from the aforelinked article/interview:

"....creating a level of confidence in the way we present things and oversee the items we sell that they would not get anywhere else....
Bill instinctively knew that people would prefer to have an item properly described in a catalog".

yeah. he really does say that.

rudy.

[corsairs22]

That is really amazing. I suppose if you've been getting away with things for years, it's difficult to accept that anyone will catch you. I don't plan to consign anything to Legendary and probably won't bid on anything, either. Unless it's both cheap and something I really, really, really need. But now I know that I need to look at the hard copy catalog

[flaco1801]

thanks, rudy wonderful expose

[yanks12025]

http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...ndary+Auctions

[aeneas01]

a $60k jersey and the buyer still apparently doesn't deserve to learn the full truth behind the shirt from the person who knows it best. for others who've purchased from mastro and legendary, it almost makes you wonder what other alterations doug has failed to disclose and/or "forget" the origins of...

the thing is this isn't just a matter of not revealing the full truth or failing to disclose the history of this shirt which of course is bad enough. instead this is a matter of blatantly stating untruths about the shirt despite clearly knowing otherwise.

"Affixing thread color variations and the extensive edge wear suggest strongly that the "C" is original and that the Bear logo was replaced after initial season usage."

this really is unbelievable. and so is legendary's response to this issue which they've now included in the lot description:

"We had a question from a prospective bidder regarding the bear logo and thought it appropriate to clarify. As documented in the write-up: although it is period, “the Bear logo was replaced.” This replacement is a vintage logo from the same year! This begs the question, where does one get a 1911 bear logo? When this jersey originally turned up in the hobby in 2004 it did not have the bear logo. Since that time a bear logo from a 1911 Jack Pfeister Cubs jersey was painstakingly re-applied."

yes, the legendary write up does indeed state that the bear logo was replaced. but no one is asking that question. what they're asking is when was it replaced. according to legendary it was replaced "after initial season usage" which clearly implies it was replaced at some point during that era rather than a few years ago. and it clearly implies that this shirt has been in this state, with the bear logo attached, for decades.

what's particularly galling is legendary's stab at trying to turn this serious matter into a positive in their nonsensical addendum to the lot description - reminds me of the current directv campaign if you know what i mean...

...

[encinorick]

Doug Allen has a big heart, much like that other Chicago native, Al Capone. I wonder what he did with that game used 32 oz. Babe Ruth bat he sold me, which was dated around 1947? Oh, yeah, it wasn't actually game used, but, perhaps it was a coach's bat, or maybe the Babe used it to help him around the house when he was old and tired; but, clearly, according to Doug, it was "in his hands at some point."

Wouldn't be surprise if it shows up in Doug's next auction.

[kingjammy24]

from legendary's update: "As documented in the write-up: although it is period, “the Bear logo was replaced.”. no. the initial write-up did not state the logo was replaced. doug simply said there was the "strong suggestion" that it had been replaced. almost as if he wasn't 100% sure. it was the "Affixing thread color variations.." that "suggested strongly" to doug that the logo was replaced. was that what it was doug? it was the threads that "suggested" to you the logo was a replacement? it wasn't the fact you personally requested and paid dave bushing to do it (and even supplied the very patch) only a few years ago? no of course not. it was your astute authenticating and noticing the threads. unbelievable. its like some sort of schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder. doug the jersey-alterer apparently doesn't talk to doug the authenticator. doug alters a jersey and then puts on his little experts cap and tries to authenticate what he just did. bizarre.

only after dave bushing comes out stating doug asked him to change the logo only a few years ago and i post a pic showing doug auctioned the jersey off (to himself apparently) in 2004 does doug's memory finally come back. oh yeah, it was him who replaced it! yeah thats right.. so much for those "thread color variations".

secondly, the reason doug intentionally failed to state the full truth behind the replacement is because all replacements are not created equal. (i say intentionally because who would be so stupid as to forget that they personally requested and paid for their $60k jersey to be altered?).

the problem behind merely saying it was "replaced" gives absolutely no indication as to the nature of the replacement. there are different kinds of alterations and the specific kind has a profound impact on the desireability and value of a piece. was it a team alteration? if the logo, for example, had been replaced by the cubs then there would minimal-to-no hit on the value of the piece. a team alteration is seen by all collectors as a legitimate alteration. was it a minor league replacement? again, that opens up a whole other can of worms with regards to usage and value. was it an after-market replacement? of course, doug knew exactly what it was all along but simply chose not to disclose it until this and dave bushing's post were made.

by reading the initial writeup, you'd almost think it was likely to be a team replacement. after all, if a 1911 jersey was restored recently, it seems a lot less likely that it'd be restored with actual pieces "from the period" than with reproductions. it being his own jersey, doug helps this train of thought along by stating that the logo "..was replaced after initial season usage". yeah... 93 years after! sort of an important point. the way it reads, you'd think it was done shortly after the initial season, in which case it would've likely been done by the cubs. obviously doug knew the truth but having people believe it occurred shortly after 1911 made the jersey a lot more attractive.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

i started wondering why the original bear would be missing from the chance jersey. seems kind of odd for part of a logo to be missing. so i went back and re-read the original auction description when the jersey was sold in 2004. it seems it was removed because the jersey was used in the minor leagues. in the current legendary description, there isn't a single word about minor-league re-use.



seems like minor-league re-use is a pretty important issue that one ought to bring up about a $60k jersey. so then the next obvious question for any potential bidder is how much of the use came from chance and how much came from some scrub minor leaguer.

rudy.

[Giants00]

This is a very interesting thread. I think the real issue here is the issue of "vintage restoration"; ie taking bits off one jersey and then using them on another. This practice seems to be on the rise, and i have seen some bizarre behaviors around this. While i fully respect people's desire to have a perfect jersey, to me restored jerseys are always worth less. First, you have cases like this where there may have been no evidence of that logo being there. Now we have imposed one and what does it mean. There are different people out there who want different things, and clearly there are collectors who want this.
I have jerseys which i could easily do the same thing, but i think it takes away from the authenticity of the jersey. It takes some of the science out of things (do we really know there was a patch there, or was logo applied in what spot). Imagine if we find a photo match of this jersey and it never had a cubs logo, what then, take it off?
Again, for me i wish that people would leave well enough alone. Part of the charm of jerseys is the imagination of what they might have been.
I have of course bought some restored jerseys. I have known what they are and i have always paid less.
I am usually silent here, but being in the swirl of this I wanted to post something which is hopefully constructive.
dan