Ty Cobb records from the 1920's

[ghostkid]

Hey Guys,

I think the answer is no, but I gotta ask anyway. Do Ty Cobb bat H&B records exist? I understand Mr. Cobb preferred 34-34.5 inch bats, but is there any proof that he ever used bats outside of this range?

Thanks,
Kevin

[MSpecht]

Hi Kevin--

Actually, there are H & B records that exist from the 1920's and earlier. A log book referencing shipments from 1911 to 1914 exists, however it is fragile and missing pages, and is by no means a complete archive. The earliest complete records consist of yearly log books, one book per year from 1920 to 1929 (except for 1924, which is missing.) All of the records from these early sources, for Hall of Fame players, are incorporated in Vince Malta's soon-to-be published book, A Complete Reference guide to Louisville Slugger Professional Player Bats, which is included with Game Used Universe Premium Membership package, and will also be sold on-line through Game Used Universe.

Regarding Ty Cobb, the documented evidence that exists include a diagram of His Original Cobb model that sets the uniform length of the Cobb model bat at 34.5 inches. That length is also consistent with the H & B Cobb display bat, which is 34.5 inches and 42 ounces. Additional evidence of the 34.5 inch length for Cobb is found in the orders of other players for Cobb model bats. Generally in those orders, only weights are mentioned, as the length is standardized at 34.5 inches. In the rare instance where a length is noted, it is a length that is a deviation from 34.5 inches, as that length iwas the standard for a Cobb model, either sent to Cobb or ordered by another player. That is the documented evidence that currently exists.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[ghostkid]

Mike,

Thanks for the info on Cobb bat lengths. I'm looking forward to getting my copy of Malta's long-awaited new guide...

Kevin

[jboosted92]

Hi Kevin--

Actually, there are H & B records that exist from the 1920's and earlier. A log book referencing shipments from 1911 to 1914 exists, however it is fragile and missing pages, and is by no means a complete archive. The earliest complete records consist of yearly log books, one book per year from 1920 to 1929 (except for 1924, which is missing.) All of the records from these early sources, for Hall of Fame players, are incorporated in Vince Malta's soon-to-be published book, A Complete Reference guide to Louisville Slugger Professional Player Bats, which is included with Game Used Universe Premium Membership package, and will also be sold on-line through Game Used Universe.

Regarding Ty Cobb, the documented evidence that exists include a diagram of His Original Cobb model that sets the uniform length of the Cobb model bat at 34.5 inches. That length is also consistent with the H & B Cobb display bat, which is 34.5 inches and 42 ounces. Additional evidence of the 34.5 inch length for Cobb is found in the orders of other players for Cobb model bats. Generally in those orders, only weights are mentioned, as the length is standardized at 34.5 inches. In the rare instance where a length is noted, it is a length that is a deviation from 34.5 inches, as that length iwas the standard for a Cobb model, either sent to Cobb or ordered by another player. That is the documented evidence that currently exists.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

Just an FYI... ( old topic..i know) there have been side-written Cobb bats (sidewritten with Cobbs name) that have deviated from the 34.5. I have seen 34.125 and 34. 875 side-written. I believe there is a 34 inch sidewritten out there...but im not sure..

I would be leary of 33 inch and 36 inch models

[jboosted92]

Just an FYI... ( old topic..i know) there have been side-written Cobb bats (sidewritten with Cobbs name) that have deviated from the 34.5. I have seen 34.125 and 34. 875 side-written. I believe there is a 34 inch sidewritten out there...but im not sure..

I would be leary of 33 inch and 36 inch models

I should mention, that i understand why MikeS. doesnt deviate his answers away from DOCUMENTED Evidence that HE has seen. Which is understood, and appreciated.

(didnt want anyone thinking I was contradicting that)

[ghostkid]

Just an FYI... ( old topic..i know) there have been side-written Cobb bats (sidewritten with Cobbs name) that have deviated from the 34.5. I have seen 34.125 and 34. 875 side-written. I believe there is a 34 inch sidewritten out there...but im not sure..

I would be leary of 33 inch and 36 inch models

Hey jboosted,

Thanks for your thoughts. Let me now ask a follow-up question.

Let's say I'd like to get a Ty Cobb professional model game used bat. Of course, I'd like to get a fully-documented side-written bat that has ideal player characteristics and matches exactly to know Cobb specs. But, I cannot afford the $100K+++ that it would take to add this bat to my collection - even if i could find one for sale.

From my research, I believe a more affordable purchase would be a 1921-31 pro model bat that is of proper length (34.5" plus or minus a bit) and weighing somewhere in the 35-38 ounce neighborhood. Based on recent auction prices, I figure a bat like this would sell for about $40-60K, which is still beyond my budget.

Okay, what can I afford? Let's say I'm being offered a 1921-31 pro model 33" bat with a hand turned knob, weight within an acceptable range (35-38 ounces), and decent player characteristics (excellent use, remnants of handle tape and a bunch of cleat marks, but no tobbacco juice). So, clearly this bat has good value, but not nearly as much value as the bats described above. What's a decent price? I figure somewhere between 25-35% of the 1921-31 bat described that goes for $40-60K. So, that computes to a range of $10-21K. What do ya think?

Kevin Kasper

[jboosted92]

Hey jboosted,

Thanks for your thoughts. Let me now ask a follow-up question.

Let's say I'd like to get a Ty Cobb professional model game used bat. Of course, I'd like to get a fully-documented side-written bat that has ideal player characteristics and matches exactly to know Cobb specs. But, I cannot afford the $100K+++ that it would take to add this bat to my collection - even if i could find one for sale.

From my research, I believe a more affordable purchase would be a 1921-31 pro model bat that is of proper length (34.5" plus or minus a bit) and weighing somewhere in the 35-38 ounce neighborhood. Based on recent auction prices, I figure a bat like this would sell for about $40-60K, which is still beyond my budget.

Okay, what can I afford? Let's say I'm being offered a 1921-31 pro model 33" bat with a hand turned knob, weight within an acceptable range (35-38 ounces), and decent player characteristics (excellent use, remnants of handle tape and a bunch of cleat marks, but no tobbacco juice). So, clearly this bat has good value, but not nearly as much value as the bats described above. What's a decent price? I figure somewhere between 25-35% of the 1921-31 bat described that goes for $40-60K. So, that computes to a range of $10-21K. What do ya think?

Kevin Kasper

Although no document proof, I believe within reason that Cobb might have used a 33 inch bat. the Player characteristics are key. I know that in the later part of his career, i have seen numerous photos with White tape. (21-31) personally, I would have to see the photos to make a more sound judgment. As you know, Cobb choked up and typically had his hands separated through his swing. The tape remnats might show some evidence towards this. what i mean is, that since he choked up, the tape may not have went alll the way to the knob, and the depressions (from his hands) may show separation. It depends on how much tape is left. My Cobb pro model bat 1914-15 has black tape, 10 inches long, not all the way to the knob (but close) and the remnats are stronger in the areas where he would have put his hands. (pressure from grip)

Now the above is all theory, but can be backed up from pictures.

[MSpecht]

Hi Kevin--

I appreciate both your comments and Justin's. As he correctly mentions, I place significant value on documented records where those records exist and are in sufficient enough number to establish an apparently reliable pattern. Is that too conservative ? Maybe some collectors think so. Regardless, for the most part, I believe that the records speak for themselves -- as collectors and potential buyers, each of us has to determine what reasonable conclusions can be drawn from a complete analytical examination of all existing facts.

Are there 'reliable records' other than documented factory records? Certainly. Photographic evidence is often compelling in determining individual use characteristics. But, again, conclusions should be reasoned. For instance, show me a photo of, say, Mickey Cochrane at bat using a Kork Grip H & B bat, and it is clear evidence that he used a Kork Grip bat (on at least one occasion) even though there is no documented notation in his factory records. That is compelling and reasonable. However, show me a photo of Cochrane standing in front of the Tiger dugout talking to a teammate, and 20 feet away lying on the ground is a Kork Grip bat ?? Don't try to convince me that it is reasonable to use this as 'evidence' that Cochrane used or even may have used a Kork Grip bat.

Relative to the Cobb bat, since the original post and responses I have seen a photo, while doing non-related research, that suggests a Cobb model (made for him), indexed and diagrammed at what appears to be 34 inches in length, I am attempting to get some clarification on the photo, but have had no response from wither the photographer or author of the book to date. For those interested, check out page 44 of Bob Hill's Crack of the Bat.

So, the question here is how, and through what reasoning, do you place a 33 inch bat into Cobb's hands? Numerous players ordered Cobb model bats during the period, including Joe Sewell, Riggs Stephenson, and Heine Manush. The stamping on those bats is unclear. How about some of Cobb's own teammates, such as Pinky Hargrove, Chick Galloway, and Jackie Tavener, all of whom were physically between 5 and 8 inches shorter than Cobb, and would possibly be comfortable with a 33 inch bat of their famous teammate. What is the answer?

That's the problem -- we just don't know. We can speculate all day and night about 'what might have been," but ultimately, the decision is how comfortable is a collector with any given conclusion based on demonstrable facts. In this case, would you be $50 confortable, $12,000 confortable, or $40,000 confortable with a 33 inch Ty Cobb professional model bat (not documented in Cobb's existing records -- either in 18 orders from 1921-1928, two diagrammed index bats, or his H & B display bat) with professional game use that is difficult to attribute to any specific player?

Again, there is no right or wrong answer, just information to help in establishing a comfort level.

Good Luck in future collecting, and thanks for the thought-provoking posts.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

[jboosted92]

Hi Kevin--

I appreciate both your comments and Justin's. As he correctly mentions, I place significant value on documented records where those records exist and are in sufficient enough number to establish an apparently reliable pattern. Is that too conservative ? Maybe some collectors think so. Regardless, for the most part, I believe that the records speak for themselves -- as collectors and potential buyers, each of us has to determine what reasonable conclusions can be drawn from a complete analytical examination of all existing facts.

Are there 'reliable records' other than documented factory records? Certainly. Photographic evidence is often compelling in determining individual use characteristics. But, again, conclusions should be reasoned. For instance, show me a photo of, say, Mickey Cochrane at bat using a Kork Grip H & B bat, and it is clear evidence that he used a Kork Grip bat (on at least one occasion) even though there is no documented notation in his factory records. That is compelling and reasonable. However, show me a photo of Cochrane standing in front of the Tiger dugout talking to a teammate, and 20 feet away lying on the ground is a Kork Grip bat ?? Don't try to convince me that it is reasonable to use this as 'evidence' that Cochrane used or even may have used a Kork Grip bat.

Relative to the Cobb bat, since the original post and responses I have seen a photo, while doing non-related research, that suggests a Cobb model (made for him), indexed and diagrammed at what appears to be 34 inches in length, I am attempting to get some clarification on the photo, but have had no response from wither the photographer or author of the book to date. For those interested, check out page 44 of Bob Hill's Crack of the Bat.

So, the question here is how, and through what reasoning, do you place a 33 inch bat into Cobb's hands? Numerous players ordered Cobb model bats during the period, including Joe Sewell, Riggs Stephenson, and Heine Manush. The stamping on those bats is unclear. How about some of Cobb's own teammates, such as Pinky Hargrove, Chick Galloway, and Jackie Tavener, all of whom were physically between 5 and 8 inches shorter than Cobb, and would possibly be comfortable with a 33 inch bat of their famous teammate. What is the answer?

That's the problem -- we just don't know. We can speculate all day and night about 'what might have been," but ultimately, the decision is how comfortable is a collector with any given conclusion based on demonstrable facts. In this case, would you be $50 confortable, $12,000 confortable, or $40,000 confortable with a 33 inch Ty Cobb professional model bat (not documented in Cobb's existing records -- either in 18 orders from 1921-1928, two diagrammed index bats, or his H & B display bat) with professional game use that is difficult to attribute to any specific player?

Again, there is no right or wrong answer, just information to help in establishing a comfort level.

Good Luck in future collecting, and thanks for the thought-provoking posts.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

I agree, COMFORTABILITY (is that a word??) is exactly it. Also, demand, timing, auctions play a part too, when you start talking about THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars, these items can flunctuate up and down..up and down..

When I purchase, I look for the "Good Deals"...I feel "comfortable" with.

A 34 inch Cobb bat with "Cobb" characteristics, photo, tape pattern..etc..blah blah blah at a "good deal" price... Im all over it..

A 33 inch " " " " " " " at what price?? well that depends...with my COMFORTABILITY!! (i think its a word...)

[ghostkid]

Relative to the Cobb bat, since the original post and responses I have seen a photo, while doing non-related research, that suggests a Cobb model (made for him), indexed and diagrammed at what appears to be 34 inches in length, I am attempting to get some clarification on the photo, but have had no response from wither the photographer or author of the book to date. For those interested, check out page 44 of Bob Hill's Crack of the Bat.

Mike,

Thanks for your comments. By the way, nice eye on catching that Crack of the Bat photo on page 44. It's quite interesting and I hope you will share with me any pertinent info you may learn from the photographer and/or auther of the book.

Kevin