Lebron jersey - A5

[kingjammy24]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

[trsent]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

Rudy, so now you have MEARS response and it appears you will still not be buying this jersey so at least you found out what you were looking for.

It all is very interesting to see MEARS response to questions.

[aeneas01]

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


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[trsent]

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


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Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

I am glad Rudy has made his issues public and now Rudy doesn't have to buy this jersey because he doesn't like the grade or opinion or concept of MEARS authentication. That is his choice. MEARS gave an opinion and Rudy didn't like it, so he won't buy this jersey.

Did MEARS ever give an opinion that this was a game used jersey?

[kingjammy24]

...read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item...

it has nothing to do with not "liking their opinion". joel, if you paid a man to change the oil in your car and later found out he didn't change it, is that simply a case of "not liking his opinion"? is it really such a bizarre concept to expect a company to do what it says it does?

various items evaluated by mears were said to have been stylematched. they were not. in the least. this is not a case of not liking their opinion. it's a case of paying mears to do a job that they say they did but really didn't.

the mears A5 states that the jersey size must be correct. how is a 52+4 correct for james? saying it might possibly be correct isn't the same thing is it being correct. troy's defense was that the A5 definition also gives mears the leeway to accept size variances thus enabling them to say that almost any size is correct. when troy said that one of the criteria for the A5 is that mears "makes sure that the size was issued to the player", this is simply not true. mears does not make sure the size was issued to the player. they say they do, but they don't. how did mears make sure a 52+4 was issued to james? they didn't.

this has nothing to do with opinions. it has to do with doing what you say and saying what you do. if a man says he'll do a certain task and you pay him to do that task then shouldn't he do it?

mears says they do things that they simply do not do. this is not my opinion, it's fact.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

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[trsent]

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

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Robert - What is your point? Rudy bashes groups he doesn't like and he kisses ass of groups he likes. He thinks everyone he doesn't like is out to commit fraud and everyone he like's is clean. Read his posts about MEARS, it is the same issues every day.

I thought you were a helmet expert - What do you have to offer about the jersey/letter in question?

If you don't like my use of what I feel is the English language, block my posts and then you won't have to read it anymore. Why is this so difficult?

[aeneas01]

Robert - What is your point?

my point? simple. and i'll repeat it. again. using less words.

a) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in this thread.
b) this does not constitute a "smear".
c) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in other threads.
d) this does not constitute a "smear campaign".
e) it's clear you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term/phrase, yet you use it freely albeit incorrectly.
f) i ask you to show me an example of rudy, a forum member, "smearing" mears. yet you don't.
g) why? because you have no idea what a "smear" is, nor a "smear campaign".
h) yet you continue to accuse a forum member of this practice.

hope that clears things up for you...

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale.

o.k., gotcha. "...made available for retail sale" does not mean "...made for retail sale". hence troy's comment you posted:

"Again, no store model jerseys (were) awarded the A5 grade, EVER....MEARS has never assigned a grade to a retail jersey"

so mears clearly does not award grades to retail jerseys. that's nice to know, makes sense. yet despite game photo evidence of james sporting a 50 +2, mears grades a james 52 +4 an a5? yet despite jersey joe having sold 52 +4 james jerseys to anyone willing to plunk down $600, mears graded the ebay jersey an a5? that's not nice to know, doesn't seem to make sense. perhaps the ebay jersey mears graded as an a5 actually came directly from the "nba factory"?

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[reed1216]

Will do, Reid.

[kingjammy24]

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?...

hello robert

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale. basically, an A5 is supposed to be the same as a legit game-issue. of course, when it's the wrong size, it's not really a game-issue is it? it's more of a pro cut and pro cuts are very much retail shirts.

the purpose of the A5 is that it's supposed to indicate a jersey that meets all of the specs of a jersey issued for play to that particular player. my issue is that mears states that it makes sure the size is correct but it seems they don't. troy did not provide any evidence whatsoever that james ever wore a 52+4. what troy did provide was a loophole in the language that allows for size variances under the A5. if you allow for size variances then you aren't making "sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". mears is contradicting itself within the same grade. on one hand troy says that in order to earn an A5 a jersey must be the correct size and on the other he says that the A5 allows for size variances which means it doesn't have to be the correct size!

if you're a collector and you saw that 52+4 with mears A5 and you read troy's statement about what constitutes an A5, you would be very much under the impression that mears made sure that lebron was issued a 52+4. but that would be completely incorrect. mears has no evidence whatsoever that lebron was issued such a size.

here are dave bushing's comments (bolding is my own):

"For those keeping track, MEARS has done a total of 42 Lebron James Cleveland jerseys between 3-24-05 and 1-25-09. 33 were size 50, 7 were size 52, all were graded A5 without a single game worn designated example that was accompanied by any provenance. There were also two size 54 jerseys each garnering an A3. To date, MEARS has never authenticated a single example of DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JAMES JERSEY. Given the large number of professional model A5 shirts that have been examined and recorded, at the very least, it is a great example of the difference between the rarity factor of a professionl MODEL jersey and one that can be put "on his back" sort of speak. It also shows the reason why a DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JERSEY such as those obtained directly from the team or player are worth far more than their common professional MODEL counterpart. Example; Payton Manning jerseys acquired through him versus the seemingly endless supply of A5 professional models. Bottom line, an A5 professional model jersey is great for display and or autographs at a certain price level but if you want to collect real, truly worn authenticate and documented game worn jersey, they are very rare in proportion to your typical A5 example and are usually priced accordingly. Hence, an A5 is not an A10. Just my two cents. David Bushing

Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes, can someone post the website that shows where factory direct completely pro tagged jerseys of any size can be ordered by the general public. It has been suggested that any shirt other than a size 50 that is tagged identically to those sized 50 documented game worn jerseys can be purchased at the retail level. I would like to order one to compare measurements and tagging. If I am not mistaken, the mere suggestion that such a shirt is nothing more than a retail shirt would suggest that these can be purchased by anyone direct from the manufacturer. If I can purchase one myself, I will publish the pictures detailing the difference, if any, between the pro model pro tagged shirts and those available through mail order which at best, should be identical except that they will be a size 52+2 rahter than a size 50+2. David Bushing"

order away dave: http://www.jersey-joe.com/bask_rbk_nba_procuts.html

anyway, back when jersey-joe did sell lebron jerseys, the only size that he offered was...*drum roll*.. a 52+4! shocker.

rudy.