NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[trsent]

Based on Dave Bushings four posts today on the MEARS forum, I guess it is safe to say people have really gotten under his skin.

It is too bad, Dave Bushing appears to try hard and works with MEARS and their policies and then people always bring up issues that MEARS has fully addressed each and every time.

I guess no one will ever be happy, but MEARS appears to me to be working in a positive direction, just as the GUU Auction House, to work with the public in case there is any reason for discussion.

[wjonesIII]

why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

[lund6771]

Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

I agree with Rudy....

this is not a small time hobby anymore!...it has gone from local flea markets and card shows to a multi-million dollar industry...Multi-million dollar industries need some sort of regulation....unfortunately, it hasn't caught up yet....So who's going to decide what prcatices are ethical and legal?...the guys behind the tables who originated from these flea markets?

if Bushing wants to authenticate his own items, I don't have a problem with it, but it should not be the ONLY authentication...and it doesn't matter what is disclosed

I agree WJones that the places listed above are not the best authenticators, but there should be at LEAST ONE third party looking at this!....it would help diminsh the "conflict of interest" level

someone still needs to explain to me how this Jim Brown jersey, that is as durable as the t-shirt I'm wearing, would not be destroyed from even a few games....wasn't that the intent of the tear away, so that it would TEAR AWAY!!!!!...maybe the jersey is real, but game worn?...
we're talking common sense, not how many OTHER tear aways I have seen that don't show any wear

this would be an ideal situation for third party discussion or authentication...ecspecially when we are talking about a piece that is worth $50,000

[Nathan]

Thanks to Troy for a fairly detailed response.

That said, the issue is exactly what Rudy and Robert are saying it is. Someone authenticating their own acquisitions and consigning them to an auction house, in spite of how transparent or opaque the various policies may be, creates the appearance of a conflict of interest and of impropriety.

Let's say this wasn't MEARS involved; let's say it was Lampson. Lampson buys a jersey from sources unknown, writes a letter authenticating it, and then consigns it to an auction house. Regardless of how good or bad the item may be (and we'll certainly discuss it here), it creates the impression that he's hacking it for an added buck. I mean, the guy told me to my face that the he had never seen anything that would indicate that the Orioles ever wore green jerseys when I asked him about the green Ripken jersey; really, that's not the point either.

The point is, in spite of any acts of full disclosure and transparency, bidders are supposed to be fine with the fact that a jersey was purchased by someone who then authenticated it and is currently consigning it.

[trsent]

So, what does everyone want?

Dave Bushing has sold his shares of MEARS, and he will not be working for them anymore. The MEARS For Sale site is not going away. Troy Kinunen has made it clear that he is going to continue to write LOAs for his own memorabilia and he will fully disclose any item being sold with a MEARS LOA that originated from his collection as being his item with his personal LOA.

If you don't like it, buy elsewhere, but putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes now.

They are not going to use other authenticators, as for some items they do not feel there is anyone more qualified. They are doing what they feel they have to do to run a business, and I am pretty sure they are doing their best to show their efforts this way.

If you do not like it, do not buy it. If you are like Rudy, genuinely concerned about people buying items that they do not understand the concept, I do not know what to tell you.

There is a gas station around the corner from me that today gas is priced at $2.79 a gallon. Across the street there is gas priced at $2.08 a gallon. I cannot stand there all day and let everyone who is paying .71-cents more a gallon know that they are paying too much. I have to worry about more important things.

I'm sure people will complain about my comparison, but it is the same sour grapes. People want to tell others how to spend their money and run their private businesses.

Now a business has broken ground with full disclosure, and it is still not good enough. Other businesses are buying, selling and authenticating their own items (or having suspect 3rd party authenticators authenticate it) and no one is complaining - Because they do not know it is happening.

Now an industry player has offered 100% full disclosure, and it just isn't good enough.

Sorry, Charlies, they have made a great effort and as usual, the complainers are just SOUR GRAPES as if these complainers would look at similar situations and see 0% ownership disclosure - 0% authentication disclosure they would have something more mature to debate.

[lund6771]

Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

[kingjammy24]

my apologies to the original poster of this thread for the way i've caused it to veer off course. i didn't intend to go down this path at all. i simply thought i'd slip in a little quip about being surprised that a $70k jersey owned by troy and dave managed to get an A10 from troy and dave. in the past i swore i'd never bring up conflicts of interest because this discussion always goes down the same predictable path; a scant few get it, most don't and never will, and dave whips himself into a foamy-mouthed frenzy on the mears forum where he comes as close as a human being can come to combusting. that said, it was nice to see a few folks like robert, nathan, and lund really grasp the core issues so it gives me a little hope. i also thought dave grob's response was articulate, logical, and clear. truth is, i agree with almost all of what he says. it's nice to see that grob sees the value in intellectual discourse and can constructively debate things without turning into a petulant child who throws his arms in the air and screams he's quitting, selling all of his shares, and noone can play with his ball again. dave b: i understand you feel forced to reply to these things to defend yourself to your customers but truly, your responses do you far more damage than anything i could possibly write. despite all of that that, i think i'll hook myself up to an electrical device that'll be programmed to shock me when i start to type the words "conflict of..".

wjonesIII: you're talking about the actual feasibility and logistics of all of this. i simply was discussing the theoretical nature of it. if the hobby, as a whole, could see and agree that the consigner and the authenticator being the same person isn't in the best interest of buyers, that would be a massive step. i can't even get people to understand why it's a problem, much less discuss how to handle it. regardless, let me address your question of who could possibly authenticate jerseys for mears employees. the greatest collective knowledge in the hobby is not in the auction houses or "professional authenticators" but amongst hobbyists/niche experts that know more about their niche than any of the "big names". is there anyone who wouldn't gladly accept a letter from aeneas about helmets or howard wolf on vintage phillies jerseys or patrick scoggin on broncos jerseys? patrick has probably forgotten more about broncos shirts than bushing will ever know. furthermore, it's hard to imagine that anyone in the hobby has a bigger rolodex than dave bushing. the man must know how to contact every single dealer, authenticator, and niche expert around. to answer your question, all dave would have to do is find the "aeneas" of vintage browns jerseys. somewhere out there is an individual who's spent his entire collecting tenure doing nothing but studying vintage browns jerseys and, like the niche experts mentioned above, his word would gladly be accepted amongst collectors of that niche. of course, all of this depends on whether you want the letter in order to genuinely suss out an item or if you simply want it to boost the value of an item. no doubt a mears letter adds a financial premium. people love seeing a name that's been heavily marketed as "the foremost expert" even if the reality is that foremost expert (on everything from gloves to football jerseys to baseball bats) doesn't actually know more about a given niche than a niche expert.

nathan & lund: exactly

joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

[trsent]

joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

Rudy, as usual, you have to take rebuttals personally and that is not fair. I give my views on the debate, and you have to thank me for the enlightenment.

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

You got your shots in against Dave Bushing - You can sleep better knowing that your posts had something to do with Dave Bushing selling off his shares of MEARS.

Maybe you should stop speculating what MEARS does or doesn't do in their process of authenticating an item because you are not there and they are not going to use another authenticator for an item they are confident in and will stand behind with full disclosure of ownership.

Yes, SOUR GRAPES.

Rudy, you don't address my concerns, which are why not attack the auction houses that are buying items, in house authenticating these items (or using a suspect 3rd party authenticator), and then selling the items at their own auction house without disclosing that they own the item?

You rather pick on Dave Bushing (and brown nose Dave Grob) for together having a company that fully discloses any item them own and authenticate. This is just too easy for you.

At least when MEARS looks to sell an item that they have fully disclosed ownership of along with authentication - We know you will find their practice wrong, and you have that right - You will have a right to check/balance their work and if you find issues they will address your concerns as few others in the industry will.

In the meantime, did you want the addresses of those gas stations? You could help a lot of innocent people save a lot of money.

[trsent]

Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

I believe the 2nd look is coming from the collecting community. How many suspect items get brought up on this forum? There is a lot of behind the scenes homework being done.

If you expect MEARS to come to this forum and ask for help, that is not going to happen. Too many people have attacked them when they have really had an open door policy to listening and addressing concerns since I have been involved with MEARS.

[kingjammy24]

some excellent points from mears' dave grob on all of this:

"I think it is counter productive to address this, at times emotionally charged issue, through the rationale of "look what everyone else is either doing or not doing".

couldn't agree more. reminds me of those folks who get a speeding ticket and spend their entire time pointing out to the cop all of the other folks were speeding too as if it has any relevancy whatsoever.

"MEARS should rightly expect to be the object of scrutiny and attention for any number of reasons. Much of what we have done in terms of process and procedures has been the result of either solicited or unsolicited collector feedback... We are comfortable with who we are as individuals and as an organization. This is not the same thing as being complacent. I would like to think we are always looking for ways to improve what we do and how we do it."

"The other thing is that we (MEARS) can not be afraid to have these issues come to public light and debate. I have always felt that fear of embarrassment and the cost to ones reputation, both personally and professionally, should act as primal motivator to do the best job you can every day and every time."

well you can either have it motivate you to do your best or you can quit, go home, and lament that everyone has it out for you and it's all personal.
i guess it all depends on your mettle.

entire post here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/42624...Message+Boards

rudy.