NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[hrvatwill]

Hmmmm....another short sleeve Lambert gamer.

[mvandor]

Re: the Brown, yes, it's hard to imagine a Brown not being pounded, even if he was wearig a new one in his final game and this is it. And if I recall correctly, hasn't Bushing left authenticating at MEARS because he took too much justified heat for authenticating his own stuff and flipping it?

[Jake51]

Two cents here...and this is all this comment is probably really worth....but I have a high level of confidence that almost all of the items in the auction belong to one private collector who is dumping his [substantial] stash.

So the reason we saw many of these items show up in different auctions and now here is because that is how this person built his collection - buying from the various auction houses.

No comment/clue on the specifics of any of the items but I have to say that some of them are pretty fun to look at!

Thanks,

Tom

[ChrisCavalier]

Two cents here...and this is all this comment is probably really worth....but I have a high level of confidence that almost all of the items in the auction belong to one private collector who is dumping his [substantial] stash.

So the reason we saw many of these items show up in different auctions and now here is because that is how this person built his collection - buying from the various auction houses.

Hello Tom,

I believe your assessment is correct. In fact, my understanding is that Mastro did secure one of the larger football collections in the hobby and that many of the items were acquired through various auctions, among other venues. That may explain why many of these items have been seen in auction before.

On a separate note as an admin as relates to some previous posts in the thread (not Tom's). If you do have questions about any of the items please feel free to contact Mastro and post any information you find here. I would also ask that the discussions focus on the specifics of the items themselves and not focus on individuals. That is, I don't see the need to bring up anyone personally unless it has verifiable relevance to the item itself. If there is evidence that has a definitive bearing on the item please state the specifics with facts to support it. Otherwise, let's stay focused on the items.

Also, as per the forum rules, I would ask that this thread not turn into an attempt to attack anyone. Again, unless there is something which can be added that can be proven to have an impact on the item itself, let's please stay focused on the items themselves as I think that is where those reading this thread can benefit.

[trsent]

big surprise, dave bushing buys a jersey and wowwee it gets an A10. dave then submits the item with his own authentication/letter and profits handsomely from the perfect grade. i can just imagine the look of delight and sheer surprise when his own jersey got an A10. i wonder what grade dave would've given it had it not been his own.

i wish i could've seen dave examine this one. sitting at his desk, whistling "we're in the money" as he checks off each item on the mears checklist. perfect! great! meets all requirements! wow, aren't i glad i bought such a great shirt, it seems to have gotten an A10! couldn't see that one coming! what a coincidence an A10 will fetch the absolute highest price. time to consign this puppy and profit from the handsome premium i've just added to it! "i've got good news, to shout in your ears, the silver dollar has returned to the fold, with silver you can turn your dreams to gold."

yeah i know REA and MEARS stated the conflict of interest in the listing but simply announcing there's a conflict hardly negates the conflict itself. dave never should've been allowed to have his own personal item evaluated by MEARS to start with and REA shouldn't accept any items directly from a MEARS member with a MEARS worksheet. people say bushing's done so well because he's such a savvy buyer. really knows how to flip an item. yeah well, it helps when you're the one writing LOAs from the most highy esteemed authenticator (read: fetches the highest prices) on your own items and magically racking up the A10s on your own items. even the savviest of buyers out there weren't able to game the system the way bushing did for years. who else could add a premium like that to their own item? thank goodness that nonsense has stopped.

ok, back to my porch to shake my cane at the kids cutting across my property.

rudy.

Troy Kinunen has posted a reply about this jersey on the MEARS forum. I believe his post is in reference to the post above. As usual, MEARS is upfront and honest about any item they authenticate from their own collection but as usual this is not good enough for some.

The Robert Edwards listing clearly stated: "The jersey was personally purchased by world-renowned jersey and bat authenticator David Bushing and has been consigned to this auction directly from his personal collection/inventory. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS and James Spence/JSA." Which clearly states that the LOA is from Dave Bushing, the previous owner, so that there is no concern over his (soon to be former) company writing the LOA for his item.

I will make an observation here that Troy Kinunen determined that it would be impossible to make a living by just writing letters for game used jerseys, bats and other vintage sports memorabilia. He came up with a full disclosure policy to make sure facts about him and his associates were public record so they were playing fair to the publics view. If anyone has a better idea they should share such a concept as maybe MEARS will adopt a new policy based on a different method. For now their policy is groundbreaking in an industry with people hiding ownership of items and writing LOAs on them.

I understand, and I believe Troy Kinunen understands, people will always complain or be jealous of their practice and amazing inventory, but the facts are clear. MEARS has set up a policy where all items authenticated by them for items they own will be clearly marked as such on their LOA and they will disclose such facts on their web site for public record and Robert Edwards will disclose such in their auction description.

Any other auction houses that have an item with a MEARS LOA will have to choose if they mention the previous ownership, as they are not under contract to follow the MEARS rules of integrity, as Robert Edwards Auctions has agreed to follow.

I see MASTRO makes no mention of the Dave Bushing ownership in their current description. They have no ties to MEARS anymore since they decided not to sign the MEARS Auction House Policy Contract.

Troy Kinunen's response follows:

There has been some discussion on game used forum with respects to the Jim Brown jersey which was bought and auctioned in the spring 2008 REA auction and is now available in the current Mastro Net auctions. There has been some speculation and statement of facts that are just plain inaccurate and mischaracterizes Dave Bushing and his involvement in the jersey. Although Dave Bushing was in charge of the marketing of this jersey, I authored both the MEARS LOO and the supporting article. Yes, an A10 grade was given, but the jersey and its merits were carefully chronicled in the detailed MEARS LOO and had nothing to do with Bushings ownership. The history, worksheet, and final LOO along with the detailed step by step process was made available to all bidders. Some criticism of tear away materials and the degree of use was openly debated by some on the GUF, this is a good thing. You do not have to agree with our findings or grade, but at least we offered a detailed, transparent methodology of our procedures which allowed you make your own final decision.

At the time of the sale, I published an article on the MEARS website addressing the jersey. Members can view the story at:

(Link removed as it points to an article only visible by MEARS members)

Regarding the origin and history of the jersey, Dave Bushing and I purchased this item at the show at the 2007 National Convention in Cleveland. This fact was presented by Rob Lifson in his catalog and I personally spoke with the current owner about our ownership.

Part of the reason the jersey obtained a high grade was due to the fact the seller of the item was offering items directly from the estate of a long time Browns employee. Included amongst his historic offerings were photographs from the 1946 AAFC team, Championship Browns footballs, correspondence, and this Jim Brown jersey. The memorabilia along with this Jim Brown jersey were offered for public viewing for the very first time at this show. The jersey was fresh and unmarketed in the hobby. Dave Bushings ownership of the jersey had nothing to do with the assigned grade.

I addressed the issue of the game wear both in the MEARS LOO and in the article.

It is often noted that a jersey has to exhibit team repairs to be considered heavily worn. This is not a universal truth and wear can manifest itself in additional visible manners. For example, examine the area of the crotch piece of this jersey. Along the button opening reinforced stitching, you can see areas of fraying. This was caused from the buttoning and unbuttoning of the piece. The game wear is visible when examining the stress and contact marks found on the fabric. This is especially visible when examining the area of the numeral surfaces. The use may be considered light by some when comparing the fabric to a dureene example with visible team repairs, but close examination reveals wear to the overall areas of the fabric of the body shell, crotch piece and numerals.

Over the past 3 years, I have personally handled nearly 300 game used NFL jerseys. I have purchased many of them on Ebay, dealers, and game used forum members. One of the key components I have noticed was the absence of team repairs. Most of these jerseys were of common players. They were purchased with the intentions to obtain fabric samples and color templates for the MEARS archives. After each jersey was archived, many were sold.

By handling such a large random sample, I was able to empirically illustrate that NFL jerseys would have medium to heavy game wear, without team repairs. Some jerseys were found to have team repairs, but I would estimate that less than 10% of the jerseys were found with team repairs. Therefore, with the aid of actual examples, I was able to document that game worn jerseys of common players were found in high percentages (90%) to not have team repairs.

A counter argument is that common players are not superstars, nor running backs, and common players should not have the same amount of game wear as a running back of Brown's calibre. Many of the samples that we examined were of everyday starting lineman, considered common players by collectors standards. These lineman jerseys were worn in every down, yet did not have repairs. It is also interesting to note that on several instances, MEARS issued unable to authenticate on super star jerseys, bearing manufactured or contrived team repairs. It is our expert opinion team repairs do not alone make a jersey real or fake.

Now, I do not mean to offend the many collectors that have NFL jerseys exhibiting team repairs. I know they exist, and have a database file of photographed players with visible team repairs. I just want to illustrate that a jersey does not have to have a team repair in order to be considered authentic or having heavy game wear.

If any interested parties would like to further discuss the team repairs vs. non team repairs debate, I would be willing to extend an invitation this spring to the new MEARS Research and Conference Center. Our color plate copies of the NFL jerseys referenced above are available for any interested parties. We can compare your actual jerseys to our referenced color plate examples.

This jersey is manufactured from a tear away material. The design of the material is quite thin and has a transparent appearance. The name is somewhat deceiving, as although thin, the material is quite resistant to tearing. I purchased a King OShea college jersey made from this tear away material. With two of my staffers and me engaged in a tug of war, the jersey did not tear. This is also a similar material to what the Chicago Bears wore at times. I have since conducted numerous research on the tear away material, and I can find no specific reference to the materials being names or marketed as such. It is my belief that the King OShea fabric was of a lighter, but stronger blend and had more to do with perspiration absorption than tearing away. With Papa Bear Halas being notorious frugal, the practice of having jerseys tear away during the course of a game is probably more versed in legend than fact. Nevertheless, this thin type fabric is photographically documented and examples from both the Browns and Bears have entered the hobby. I have not been presented with any proof that these tear away jerseys are expected to tear after each game of use.

Again, I have several of these tear away jerseys available for examination at the new MEARS headquarters and I think you would also be surprised at the actual strength this material contains.

Furthermore, I have 4 or 5 crystal clear image of Jim Brown wearing the tear away style jerseys. None of them show visible signs of team repairs. I do feel that team repairs would show in photos, as we have several examples in our database. These images of Jim Brown can be found in the article.

At the time of the article we addressed the images of Brown as follows:

I have provided a close-up image of Jim Brown wearing a similar tear away jersey. Note how the writing of his T-shirt and shoulder pad markings can be seen through the materials.

Regarding the issue of conflict of interest, both sides of the issue have stated their cases and I do not expect to change any existing opinions. What I do feel is that a high majority of active bidders and collectors do not have issues with MEARS members buying and evaluating their own items. This is illustrated by higher prices realized of MEARS evaluated items, even on the items owned and disclosed as being owned by Dave Bushing.

I also feel that the issue of conflict of interest is unfairly targeted at Dave Bushing as he has agreed to voluntarily disclose what he owns. This is done via the our items at auction section on the MEARS website, and the disclosure line of the items for sale at MEARS For Sale. Rob Lifson also voluntarily listed the ownership of Bushing or Bushing/Kinunen in each lot description. As a consignor, both Dave and I were quite pleased with the results of our consignments in the 2008 REA auction. Each of these lots had our financial interests listed, and we did not feel there were any negative impacts from interested bidders. In some cases, collectors seek out items owned by Dave, so the disclosure process actually helps Dave sell items for higher prices. Authenticators John Taube and Lou Lampson are also dealers that have consigned to auction houses in the past. To my knowledge, they have yet to adopt the full disclosure practice mandated by MEARS, yet they never receive criticism. If the current crop of authenticators are still consigning items they own, the collecting public does not know as I know of no formal method of the identification of these items and the disclosure of their owners. Dave received the criticism, as he was the only person disclosing.

But, I guess if you do not disclose, how can anybody see the self applied target on your back? Next time you receive an item in auction that was authenticated as real or you get a PSA letter with a high grade, it might have been owned by Taube or Lampson, but you will never really know due to the lack of full disclosure policies for these individuals.

At least with Bushing, you can run for the hills when you see an item owned by him with a MEARS A10 grade. Or in the case of the Jim Brown jersey, you can bid aggressively with the exact same knowledge of disclosure and pay a World Record price!

With MEARS, we voluntarily provide you with the disclosure of ownership, give you a worksheet to review, a final letter to review, and a bulletin board to discuss. Although we cant please everyone, we still do alright.

Troy

[Jake51]

Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

Thanks,

Tom

[ChrisCavalier]

Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

Hello Tom,

Actually I owe you the apology. I guess my post was not clear. My posts contained two parts and the part about the consignor was the only part I intended to reference you (given your previous post).

My reference to mentioning individuals had nothing to do with your post but to posts that were made previous to yours in the thread. I'm sorry for the confusion. I should have made that clearer in my post. In fact, I went back and edited it to try to avoid any further confusion.

[kingjammy24]

tom: i may be wrong but i think chris was pointing at my post.

re: my post and troy's response

first, i think it's a great thing that MEARS has the character to respond, promptly and in full, to these things. perhaps one day lampson will grow a pair, come out from under his rock and follow their example. so hat's off to troy for not ducking things. to the issues:

"Dave Bushing and I purchased this item at the show at the 2007 National Convention in Cleveland...I authored both the MEARS LOO and the supporting article."

if the actual ownership was joint between troy and bushing then the fact that troy wrote the letter and not dave is irrelevant. if you have ownership in the item, you don't write the letter on it. very simple stuff to grasp, especially for an organization that has long trumpeted the importance of true-third party authentication. if you purchase an item and then you evaluate your own item after you've purchased it, how is that third-party authentication? how is it not a conflict of interest, which MEARS has also long railed against?

"Yes, an A10 grade was given, but the jersey and its merits were carefully chronicled in the detailed MEARS LOO and had nothing to do with Bushings ownership."

the jersey may, or may not, very well merit an A10. that's not the issue in the least. the issue solely centers around the inherit existance of bias in evaluating items you own, regardless of whether the grades are justified.

"What I do feel is that a high majority of active bidders and collectors do not have issues with MEARS members buying and evaluating their own items. This is illustrated by higher prices realized of MEARS evaluated items, even on the items owned and disclosed as being owned by Dave Bushing."

most don't have an issue with it and MEARS items sell for more. all completely irrelevant to the issue. what's right is right regardless of whether people have a problem with it or not. ethical behavior isn't a popularity or profit-making contest.

re: disclosure

i'll say it again: disclosure doesn't eliminate the conflict. it only informs people of the conflict.

"Authenticators John Taube and Lou Lampson are also dealers that have consigned to auction houses in the past. To my knowledge, they have yet to adopt the full disclosure practice mandated by MEARS, yet they never receive criticism."

well this i did not know. i always suspected lampson authenticated and consigned his own items into his buddies' auctions because hey that's just the sort of guy that lou is but with doug allen's dodgy responses and mastro's bizarre refusal to identify their authenticators, i never had any proof. hard to criticize without proof. if taube's consigning and authenticating his own items into auctions, then it's as much a conflict of interest as when bushing does it. taube once told me he didn't authenticate his own items, disclosure or not. i believed him.

"If the current crop of authenticators are still consigning items they own, the collecting public does not know as I know of no formal method of the identification of these items and the disclosure of their owners. Dave received the criticism, as he was the only person disclosing."

ok dave gets kudos for disclosing however holding him up against the current crop of authenticators sets the pretty bar low. who are we talking about here..lampson, coppola, cocchi? i'd name mastro's mystery team but doug keeps them a bigger secret than the colonel's original recipe. MEARS made its name by setting themselves to a higher standard. comparing dave to the current crop of authenticators seems to go against that.

"But, I guess if you do not disclose, how can anybody see the self applied target on your back? Next time you receive an item in auction that was authenticated as real or you get a PSA letter with a high grade, it might have been owned by Taube or Lampson, but you will never really know due to the lack of full disclosure policies for these individuals."

i'd like to see taube address this issue. anyway, troy the inherant problem in what you write above is that, due to various factors, folks have the expectation of the highest ethical standards from MEARS. clearly they don't have that same expectation from lampson. sure, in a way you've done it to yourself but i don't think you'd rather go skulking around the shadows and end up as nothing more than a reviled laughing stock.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

If anyone has a better idea they should share such a concept as maybe MEARS will adopt a new policy based on a different method.

if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.

the issue is that disclosure doesn't negate the conflict. it's a great start and it's better than what others do but what others do in this industry is so abysmal that it hardly sets the bar. saying you're a good a person because you only stole $5 while everyone else stole $10 isn't much of a case. i agree that disclosure is nice. i agree that MEARS does more than most. neither of these is relevant to the issue.

rudy.

[Danny899]

As usual, MEARS is upfront and honest about any item they authenticate from their own collection but as usual this is not good enough for some.

I understand, and I believe Troy Kinunen understands, people will always complain or be jealous of their practice and amazing inventory, but the facts are clear. MEARS has set up a policy where all items authenticated by them for items they own will be clearly marked as such on their LOA .

Troy

Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan