Clemens Jersey: Any Thoughts??

[BULBUS]

Since when did the Yankees wear a jersey like this? Is that supposed to be Clemens signature?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Roger-Clemens-Ga...QQcmdZViewItem

[suave1477]

bulbus I would have to agree with you on that one. I have a Home Strawberry jersey from that year and there was no strip tagging on the inside of mine also the description says they attribute the jersey to Clemens but don't know if it's real, Meanwhile they have a strip tag showing Clemens 1999. Which tells me it's not real if your the one selling it and your questioning a jersey that has a strip tag of the player your claiming it to be from.

I do feel bad for the poor souls bidding on it!!!

[BULBUS]

"We cannot verify its use by Clemens, but our loss is your gain."

More like, our loss is your loss. They don't even mention the autograph. I guess because it is such a pathetic attempt. Clemens wore number 12 for most of 1999. This could be a playoff jersey!

I can't believe people are bidding this high for the jersey. Poor souls indeed!

[suave1477]

Bulbus do you think we should warn the bidders?

[BULBUS]

i dont know? i did that once before. i like to think i saved someone a lot of money, but i'm sure the seller went and sold it elsewhere. its hard to stop these people. you can email the bidders if you like.

[trsent]

There is also a problem with emailing the bidder that you are technically in violation of an eBay policy for tampering with an auction. Even though you are right, you could be warned or suspended for such activity.

I know you can report an auction to eBay that may have the auction terminated, but you have to have a burned of proof to have this completed.

[suave1477]

TRSENT thanks for the advice I did not know that about ebay. Well I will be honest I did get burned once from buying a fake jersey and I wish someone told me. Oh well I guess you learn from your mistakes!!!

[lee pdx]

Okay, so I've been reading posts on this site for a month or so (as well as general comments about doing ones own research) and thought, as a learning excercise, I would try to arrive at my own conclusion regarding the authenticity of this jersey (as well as another Clemens 'game issued' 2005 away jersey currently on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ROGER-CLEMENS-GA...QQcmdZViewItem) before running to ya'll (or emailing Chris Boyd) for help. Now that I have had a chance to do so, I'd appreacite it if some of you wouldn't mind 'critiquing the rookie' a bit, as well as give me some pointers for future 'authentification efforts.'

Starting with the Clemens 'game issued' jersey: I understand that the 0062 on the wash tag indicates that this is a retail jersey rather than team issued jersey (which would have a 0060 code?). Based on this alone, I saw no reason to further delve into the authenticity of this jersey as "game issued." Which leads me to ask, is my understanding/assertion about this jersey correct? (Question #1)

Next, to the 1999 Clemens Yankees jersey: A couple of things immediately struck me as odd. First, I assume that if there was any way whatsoever to authenticate this jersey, Broadway Rick would have already done so and would be selling it at auction for $10,000 (rather than on Ebay at a starting bid of $20). Moreover, the signature looks like complete crap. So, from there I compared the signature to other Clemens sigs that I have, decided this one was bad, and ended my research (and interest) there. Any assessment of my thought process/instincts on this? (Question #2).

This being said... had I thought the Clemens signature looked good, what steps would I take from there to attempt to 'authenticate' this jersey? (Question #3). [My thoughts were to ask for better pictures of the uniform and pictures of the tagging, so that I could check the 'wash tag code' and try some photo matching, but honestly I just wasn't sure].

Again, just trying to learn a bit here so any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Lee

[suave1477]

lee your on a good way to learning how to try to get a better understanding of the real jerseys and fake ones, but to add to your thoughts you also want to check the measurements of a players jerseys from when they first started to when they ended. Although weight on a player can change go up or down it usually will be within the same or progress upwards over years as normal weight gain takes a toll on a humans age. I have seen jerseys for my favorite player go from a 42 chest to a 50 but you can also see the progression over the years. Another way to tell is also by comparison of the players teamates from that year. Another thing to look for is the patches are they correct with that jersey or with that year and the measurements of the letters and/or numbers. Just some helpful advice!!!!

[kingjammy24]

Lee:

'question 1': your wash codes are incorrect. here:

6200 - retail jerseys
0062 - 'pro' jerseys
6500 - retail bp jerseys
0065 - 'pro' bp jerseys

I've never heard of a '0060' wash code. The wash codes are a nice start but, as with many things, don't take them as gospel. Some legit game-worn jerseys have been found with the 6200 code, while some '0062' coded jerseys have found their way to retail stores. For more reading on the subject, try Rob Steinmetz's site www.authenticgamers.com .
( http://www.authenticgamers.com/water....10.18.04.html )
Specifically, the "Watercooler" section:
http://www.authenticgamers.com/watercooler.html

Based on a wash code alone, you shouldn't cease analyzing a jersey.

'question 2' - The Clemens signature does look horribly off. But is it even supposed to be Clemens' signature? I don't know. I don't know whose signature that's supposed to be.

'question 3' - ask for pics of the front, back, and a close-up of the tagging. perhaps a close-up of the numbers and name on the back.
here's a brief starter list of things to look for:
- are the fonts (letters & numbers) correct? (size, style, stitching, material, arch, placement, etc).
- is there supposed to be a nameplate or not?
- is the size correct?
- is the manufacturer correct?
- is the style of manufacturer tagging correct? (I've posted primers on Wilson, Russell, and Rawlings tagging on here showing various revisions over the years).
- is the set/year/etc tagging correct? style-wise? is it suppose to have flag tag, strip tag, etc? is the font on the tagging correct?
- is the style of the jersey correct for the year & team?
- is it missing any patches/memorial bands? if so, why? is there physical evidence that there these once existed and were removed?
- do any patches/memorial bands match the year of the jersey and time
that the player played for the team in that style of jersey?
(I once saw a jersey with a 1994 patch that was worn only for one year
and a 1997 patch that was worn only for one year. I guess the forger
loved patches)
- has been a name and/or number change (or evidence of one)?
- are there holes around the nameplate possibly implying someone removed a previous nameplate?
- can you see 'ghost stitching' indicating a name/number change?
- does the color and condition of the nameplate match the color and condition of the jersey?
- does the color and condition of the name and all numbers match the color and condition of the team script on the front? (if it's supposed to)
- is there velcro in between the buttons?
- what's the provenance?
- are the buttons indicative of a retail jersey or are they 'pro jersey' style buttons?
- is it a nylon or polyester jersey?/is the material correct?
- what sort of wear does it show?
- is the wear realistic for the amount of time worn?
- what sort of use does it show?
- is the use realistic for the player/position/amount of time worn?
- check team roster to make sure the player actually played for the team
during the specific timeframe
- was the jersey re-used from a previous year and/or previous player?
- do the numbers show puckering? broken threads?
- does the tagging show wear?
- does the actual size of the jersey match the size indicated on the size tag?
- can you stylematch the jersey?
- can you possibly photomatch it?
- how does it compare to other exemplars of both the team and the specific player?
- should there be lining anywhere inside the jersey?
- does the jersey exhibit known player preferences such as removing the tags, cutting the bottom of the tail, etc?

Once you've answered those questions, I'd say you're off to a decent start. There are additional processes and things I'd check but that's a decent list to start with.

If I'd offer one piece of advice, I'd say don't just stop because you think you've discovered one questionable aspect. Keep going. Keep analyzing the jersey until you've exhausted every possible aspect and your eyeballs are ready to fall out. Then go back and do it again the next day to see if there's anything you've missed or misinterpreted. You seemed to discover what you thought was an incorrect wash tag or bad signature and decided that was enough to decide that the jersey was bad. I'd advise against this for various reasons. Analyze the jersey until there isn't a single aspect left.

Start building a photo library of styles and tagging and action photos.
Use this library as a reference. Purchase Bill Henderson's guide. Acquire other resources such as yearbooks, programs, and baseball cards which show photos uniforms. Compare these game photos to photos of the jersey. Look at every single inch of the jersey. You'll notice things you never noticed before.

Rudy.