I Tried To Take The High Road On The Namath Thing...

you know what guys? i've decided that trying to take the high road is probably a waste of time and, even worse, counterproductive. when i posted my findings on the namath helmet i did everything in my power not to beat heritage over the head with it - and i defended their position again and again throughout the thread. so much so that i even drew the consternation of many of my fellow forum members.

but after reading nerat's recent blog, i have to say that i don't want to be associated with that camp in any shape or form - nerat parroted my defense of heritage but could not leave well enough alone. instead he felt compelled to ratchet it up a few notches by accusing some members of being bad for the hobby because they have the audacity to speak frankly, openly and passionately about their grievances.

well here's a newsflash - forum members didn't arrive at this point because they have noting better to do than b&^*tch about the weather. and if you need any proof of this, then just take a gander at this sampling of nonsense collectors have had to sift through - and eat.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...b/09unitas.jpg

problem: unitas wore a rawlings hnd9? right.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23.../01hacksaw.jpg

problem: the rams didn't switch to blue facemasks until the 1981 season - reynolds never wore a blue facemask when with the rams given his last season in horns was 1980.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...02campbell.jpg

problem: campbell only wore a riddell (pictured) his rookie year and his final two seasons with the oilers - he wore a rawlings during the rest of the time he was with the team. when he switched back to a riddell after four years of wearing a rawlings, he covered the riddell markings with rawlings markings given that he was still under contract with rawlings. further, campbell also switched facemasks when he went back to a riddell - the facemask shown in the auction ad is the style he wore when he sported a rawlings, not what he used when he switched back to a riddell. for a look at campbell's real game-used riddell helmet, check out the "show me your nfl stuff" thread - the forum's own rkgibson is the owner of this rare gem.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ub/03james.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ub/04james.jpg

problem: did ej ever opt for high snap-on chinstrap after his rookie year? he didn't in 2000 - he went with the "screw-on" option. are the rear decal placements accurate?



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ub/05ozzie.jpg

problem: did the great ozzie newsome ever wear a "usfl" facemask? i don't think so.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23.../06woodley.jpg

problem: woodley was a riddell man, not a rawlings rts man.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...b/07oilers.jpg

problem: not only is this circa 1960-1970 vinatge oilers lid in absolute mint condition, but it also happens to be a modern day youth helmet made by nokona (nocona). it's their nh-100 youth lid which can be had for about $60 retail, $30 on ebay. it sold for over $600 at auction.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...b/08dawson.jpg

problem: this lid has changed hands quite a few times over the years despite the several problems with it, most recently it sold for $7,500 large. the item description incorrectly states that the lid sports the proper '70s version of the arrowhead decal with clear trim. this is wrong - the decals appearing on this lid didn't appear until the late '70s, early '80s. dawson retired after the '75 season.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...b/10unitas.jpg

problem: the grandaddy of them all - a "game worn" helmet with the same sort of storied provenance that accompanied the namath helmet. but unitas never wore a macgregor - he was a riddell man. a $50,000+++ gaff...

All I can say is "wow."

And "wow."

And "wow."

And now I'm speechless.

Robert...again, excellent work! As a Bradshaw fan (as you already know), Heritage had a Bradshaw Maxpro Helmet in a auction last year via Ebay...I believe it was prior to you coming to the forum and posting observations on helmets. I actually started a thread about this.....

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8243&page=3&highlight=bradshaw

I was wondering if you could post your thoughts on this helmet? I shared mine in the original thread...

Here are the pictures from that auction, which I believe the helmet sold for $5k...

aeneas01 strikes again!

Is that the Unitas helmet Steve Bisciotti bought and lent to the Camden Yards museum? If so, whoops! I can see SCD doing a huge story on this and how, yet again, it illustrates the need for everyone to do their homework before buying.....wait a second, never mind. I forgot that this kind of stuff scares the crap out of SCD. Run and hide, fellas!

surely in the realm of questionable, big-money helmets, this $22k sayers ranks up there?

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/360/galedy3yg8.jpg

anyway robert, coincidentally enough it seems that many of the images you posted in this thread are from AMI and are from around the time that chris nerat worked at AMI so perhaps he could shed some light about why the "incomprehensibly" amazing brain of lou lampson didn't catch them.

rudy.

Great Work Aenaes01 !

As far as the Sayers lid .
Here are some pictures I found on getty , are there are too many rivet holes in the front of the lid ????? Is the C for Chicago up too high ? In one of the getty pics the C is a lot closer to the ear hole !

Attachment 10820

Attachment 10821

Attachment 10822

Attachment 10823

Attachment 10824

Here is another nice pic , showing a totally different helmet type (a Wilson) .....

Attachment 10825

re: the $22k GFC sayers helmet

here are robert's previous comments on the helmet:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_f...5&postcount=16

rudy.

Has Lou made mistakes in the past? Yes. But, by going nuts on an auction house for a mistake like this is not only bad for Heritage, but it is also bad for the hobby in general and board members who like to sit behind their computer and rant and rave about something like this are nothing but instigators who need to calm down.

Ah yes, as Chris Nerat stated in his blog, (see above) Robert's recent postings are just a few more examples of a board member who like to sit behind their computer and rant and rave. And, once again he is being an instigators who needs to calm down.

Chris Nerat, I'am with you brother - this guy Richard needs to calm down. He's totally out of control. But Chris Nerat, I have to ask you, would the most recent examples posted by Richard be somewhat "Bad for the Hobby in General"?

One final thought, I' don't think I'd be real comfortable if I had that Unitas helmet sitting on my shelf - $47,000.00 plus the hammer fees.

Jim

I have to laugh at Nerats Blog. The fact is, Heritage did act irresponsibly and Nerat is too. You have a bunch of guys operating a auction business who know very little about the product they are trying to selling guys like me. Instead of just telling the truth, they in fact did not check into the authenticity of the helmet and just relied on the story, they try to spin it to make them look not responsible. The truth works better. You have credibility with the truth. Take responsibility. Don't try to discredit someone who truely knows and points that out with absolute evidence. It is obvious to me that these people do not care about doing business with integrity. I was told once that everything in the world revolves around money and sex. Appears right here, they are making money and the buyer gets, well you know.

Roger

aeneas01...your contribution to the "rightenous" of this world is what this hobby needs...please do not feel discouraged for one second that these scumbags are trying to put a spin on things...

I'll be the first one to back you up in the alley!!!!!!!!!

aeneas01, don't let em get to you. Your type of knowledge is exactly what we need.

The truth shall set us free, and hopefully put alot of scumbags out of buisness. I'll be with you guys in that alley.

Robert, Thanks for sharing your honesty and knowledge. I really appreciate it and have learned a ton from your posts. Thanks raifie

Robert,

You have opened my eyes to an entirely new aspect of this hobby (and that's what it is, a hobby). Your ability to differentiate minute details, as well as your catalog of knowledge is quite impressive. The only reason why you have not been employed for your inspections and opinions of game worn helmets by an auction house, is that we wouldn't see ANY of these helmets for sale. You have personally saved me A LOT of money, and have taught me to look for things in helmets that most wouldn't even see. I think I can speak for 99% of this board when I say THANK YOU for all of the time and effort you spend in discrediting 99% of the frauds out there. Your findings are always insightful, well presented, and most importantly respectful. Thanks again for all of your work!!

Might seem like a stupid question but where on earth do all of these flawed items originate?

Was someone intentionally trying to scam collectors or are these just items that many people thought were real and have passed them down over time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RKO18

Might seem like a stupid question but where on earth do all of these flawed items originate? Was someone intentionally trying to scam collectors or are these just items that many people thought were real and have passed them down over time?

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good questions and imo it's a little of both, some were intentionally faked to rip off collectors and some were honestly, albeit incorrectly, passed along as authentic gamers. the problem with the later is that at some point someone authenticated these things - so even if they were innocently/honestly believed to be gamers at one time due to bad or misunderstood information, they should have been caught during the authentication process.

with that said, i have a pretty good idea where a lot of these vintage helmets came from, authentic helmets that were intentionally "doctored" in order to make them appear to have come from well known players. i think the person(s) responsible a) know football helmets better than most b) have been collecting game used items for decades c) have developed relationships with equipment managers, players, dealers and auction houses d) are well known and respected and e) have enjoyed the ability to bring their bunk items to market for years, with little to no scrutiny, prior to the internet age. i also believe that for years more than a few auction houses have facilitated this mess by shrugging their responsibility to their buyers - this is clear given the amount of bunk items that pass mustard and the impossible time frame authenticators are given to inspect enormous lots.

but i would think this could change rather quickly if, for example, the fbi got involved. it seems that law enforcement could simply approach an auction house and ask how they determined some items to be authentic. a few items that would be interesting starting points would be both unitas helmets sold through hunt, the unitas helmet sold through mastro, a blanda helmet, a dawson helmet and a namath helmet sold through ami. that's 6 helmets. ask the auction houses a) where they came from b) what proof they were given that supported their authenticity c) what process their authenticator(s) used to determine their authenticity and d) how involved were the auction houses in the authentication process. i think these simple steps, limited to a handful of items, would tell an interesting tale...

...

Aeneas is like a bloodhound when it comes to questionable auction lots. More to the point, he's a con artist's worst nightmare.

Aeneas, do you specialize in Namath/Jets collectibles or do you consider yourself a "generalist"?

Cheers and we look forward to your Forum Favourites selections!


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It's not a problem unique to Heritage. I've seen two bogus Bob Griese items from American Memorabilia which sold for 4K+, and 12K. A 1973 helmet, where the side logos are too off the mark to match any photo or footage; and a '73 -'74 helmet from Wilson. If somebody knows a source where he DID wear Wislon at any time, I'd love to see it.