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djusticefan
08-04-2007, 03:27 PM
I was wondering if anybody could help me out by telling me if there is any way to prove that a baseball someone is selling as an actual HR ball a player hit, is real. Also, it wasn't a milestone ball so it wouldn't have anything special markings. They say they will provide the tickets to the game but that doesn't seem like it proves anything to me. If anybody can give me some tips I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

richpick
08-04-2007, 04:10 PM
Some HR balls are marked when the event happens. I was offered this Davey Lopes ball and as you can see it is written in pen and dated with the homerun numbered. The price was $275 which after asking forum members found out was way too steep. If the ball is unmarked and the only provenence is the sellers word and game tickets you would have to really trust the seller.

What do you do:

You could have the seller write a LOA about the ball and then have him sign it and have it notarized.
You or the seller could write on the ball the signifigant date, teams, and event on the ball and then go through step number 1.
Send the ball to Lou Lampson and have him write a LOA for a nominal charge but tell him the ball is Barry Bonds HR #756 as this will raise the value of the ball.

byergo
08-04-2007, 08:08 PM
I have the longest HR ball ever hit in Fenway Park.

Bo Jackson's monumental estimated 515 foot blast off "Oil Can" Boyd which was still rising as it towered over a scoreboard in left/center which is no longer there (keep in mind this trajectory was over 72 feet off the ground well past the fence)! This was on July 16, 1988. The Red Sox never mention this HR, and say that Ted Williams shot (where the red seat is) was the longest homerun hit INSIDE the ballpark (505 feet). I'm sure they aren't so happy about a KC Royal holding the honor, but we all know better!

The ball has remarkable provenance from a 25 year American League umpire and personal friend of Bo's. And that makes at least three stadiums in which Bo holds the HR distance record (in KC--hit to the base of the scoreboard amongst the fountains, Texas--off legendary power pitcher Nolan Ryan, and Boston). There may be more I'm not aware of

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More info./research about the ball:

EBAY listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300110442461&rd=1&rd=1
ebay item #: 300110442461

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http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=15353
Longest I ever saw in Fenway was hit by Bo Jackson...well up the wall behind the CF bleachers. It happened on July 16, 1988 and was launched off of Oil Can Boyd. Roger Angell describes it in his essay "Homeric Tales" thusly:


QUOTE
"The ball left the yard just to the right of the center-field flagpole and struck close to the top of the wall there that runs well above the upper bleachers…"


It was one of those classic Bo shots that was clearly gone as he was swinging...the question being only how far would it go? Had that wall not been there, it would have cleared 500' easily (IMO).
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Yahoo Answers:
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AswYmqqG8Ap7iFJ9NNVypPUJ5wt.?qid=200705 21111313AArNjuL

Q. Where and when did KC Royals star Bo Jackson hit his 12th HR of the 1988 season? Who was the pitcher?

A. July 16th, Fenway Park, Boston, MA. "Oil Can" Boyd was the picther. He was the first batter in the top of the 2nd inning. It was a HR to left center field.

Bo batting game log: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=jacksbo01&t=b&year=1988
Box score: http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS198807160.shtml
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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972617-2,00.html

"In July 1988, he hit a blast off Boston's Oil Can Boyd that many said was the longest home run ever hit in Fenway Park. Last year Jackson hit a middling .272 and, despite missing 51 games, still led the Royals with 28 homers and 78 runs batted in."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Can_Boyd

I am The Can, and I am going to come right at you with my best shit, and if you can hit it, I want to see how far Bo Jackson can hit The Oil Can. Boyd, to Jackson, before he hit Boyd's first pitch over the 71-foot high score board in straight away center field at Fenway Park (the ball landed 515 feet from home plate). Resource: 10K Truth - Baseball Quotes [3].

allstarsplus
08-04-2007, 08:11 PM
Get the game film from that particular game and see the section # and row # the HR ball ended up in and compare that to the ticket stub which should be your first step if possible.

Look for markings on the ball that would be consistent to that particular HR such as discoloration from using a black bat for instance.

Look for a contact mark on the ball.

Another good idea:


You could have the seller write a LOA about the ball and then have him sign it and have it notarized.

Lastly, make sure the seller has a stellar reputation as unmarked HR balls are really a product of trust so caveat emptor.

We are fortunate in Washington DC that most of the HR balls (few are hit) end up in the bullpen area and not in the seats and the MLB rep retrieves them and holograms them. I got an amazing Soriano HR ball that is MLB hologram'd and came from his 3 HR game last year.

Good luck.

Andrew

griffey3
08-05-2007, 04:19 AM
I agree with the person who said check out the game film. Especially in todays day in age where there are so many camera angles. You can subscribe for a month package of mlbtv.com for like $20 and view footage from ANY game last year or this year. Ask the person if they will send you a photo of themselves and compare it with the people you see where the ball landed. Also check the ticket stub local and make sure that it matches up.
As far as what the ball itself looks like that is a real crap shoot. I have caught BP balls that look BRAND NEW and the only home run ball I have is a recent one of Griffey's that I caught and it looks like it had been used for about 5 years (really dirty) so that kind of stuff can really have no rhyme or reason.

byergo
08-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Apparently all/most MLB game used balls are "mudded" with a certain type of mud/clay that comes from one source prior to the game by the umpires. It cuts the shine down on the ball, so look for a ball that isn't crystal white, but as mentioned, the use characteristics vary greatly.

byergo
08-05-2007, 03:19 PM
The balls seem to be built pretty sturdy too. That Bo home run ball was hit about as hard as an MLB ball has ever been hit by any player, and it wasn't disfigured or anything abnormal.

JimCaravello
08-05-2007, 03:50 PM
Maybe a little off topic - but thought this was pretty neat today....the same fan at Yankee Stadium this afternoon caught Matsui's #100 HR ball, as well as a HR ball from Cabrera.........what are the odds of that!! Jim

sylbry
08-05-2007, 04:09 PM
If people believed that ball was really a Bo HR ball it would have sold for much more money.

byergo
08-05-2007, 08:54 PM
The price was exceptionally low. The auction ended late at night on a Sunday. I feel that the provenance is exceptional and the ball is legit. Durwood Merrill (an American League Ump for 23 years, umped World Series and All Star games wrote the LOA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durwood_Merrill). He was a personal friend of Bo's and when he wrote his hardback book autobiography he shared some Bo Jackson stories.

I was trilled when I won this ball for many multiples less than my high bid! I'm a huge Bo fan and this is the only Bo HR ball I've ever seen available for sale.

djusticefan
08-05-2007, 10:55 PM
I just wanted to say thanks a lot to everybody who posted a reply, you all helped me a lot! Thanks again!

byergo
08-06-2007, 07:46 AM
The other thing about the Bo ball is the seller didnt' research it prior to listing, so he didn't share that it was the longest HR ball ever hit in Fenway park, just that it was Bo's 12th of the 1988 season. This was one of my all-time biggest steals on ebay!

sylbry
08-06-2007, 08:07 AM
The price was exceptionally low. The auction ended late at night on a Sunday. I feel that the provenance is exceptional and the ball is legit. Durwood Merrill (an American League Ump for 23 years, umped World Series and All Star games wrote the LOA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durwood_Merrill). He was a personal friend of Bo's and when he wrote his hardback book autobiography he shared some Bo Jackson stories.

I was trilled when I won this ball for many multiples less than my high bid! I'm a huge Bo fan and this is the only Bo HR ball I've ever seen available for sale.

I think you are overrating the provenance. I could create that letter in 10 minutes on my computer.

byergo
08-06-2007, 08:36 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. That's the great thing about this country.

allstarsplus
08-06-2007, 09:36 AM
Byergo - The ball certainly could be legit. My only thought is how in the world did the umpire retrieve this HR ball. Did the ball actually end up on the street outside of Fenway?

Umpire LOAs have been suspect in the past. Who remembers the Al Clark certified Ripken 2131 game used balls?

Al Clark was arrested and charged with mail fraud in connection with these fakes.

Here is a summary from the Dept. of Justice:

06-08-04 -- Graessle, Jr., Richard -- Sentencing -- News Release


Sports Memorabilia Dealer Sentenced to Prison for Sale of Bogus "Game Balls"
NEWARK - A sports memorabilia dealer was sentenced today to four months in prison for tax fraud in connection with a former Major League Baseball umpire's authentication of hundreds of baseballs that the umpire falsely represented had been used in notable games, such as Cal Ripken Jr.'s tying and breaking of Lou Gehrig's record for consecutive games played, U.S. Attorney Christopher J. Christie announced.

Richard Graessle Jr., 43, of Millburn, must also serve four months of house arrest upon completion of his prison sentence and was fined $500 by Chief U.S. District Judge John W. Bissell. As part of his plea agreement with the government, Graessle must pay $101,377 in federal taxes, plus penalties and interest, on income derived fromGraessle's sale of the baseballs to memorabilia dealers.

Last Thursday, Judge Bissell sentenced ex-MLB umpire Alan M. Clark to the same period of incarceration and house-arrest. Clark pleaded guilty on Feb. 23 to a one-count Information charging conspiracy to commit mail fraud. Graessle pleaded guilty on the same day to one count of tax evasion.

In support of the prison sentence for Clark, Judge Bissell said that Clark held a special position of trust as an umpire and used it to commit the fraud.

"This could not have happened without Mr.Clark," Judge Bissell said. "He was the source of authenticity that allowed this to happen."

Today, Judge Bissell said he found Graessle equally culpable in the fraud scheme.

In addition to the Ripken and Gehrig-record baseballs, Clark also falsely represented that other balls he authenticated were used in the New York Yankee's 1978 pennant clincher over the Boston Red Sox; Nolan Ryan's 300th career pitching win with the Texas Rangers, and Dwight Gooden's 1996 no-hitter at Yankee Stadium, among numerous other notable games.

Clark officiated in all of the games in question, and signed most of the baseballs and all certificates of authenticity that went with them. In fact, most of the balls were never used in any of the games and were merely "rubbed up" to look like they'd been in play. Some of the baseballs, which were advertised for sale in sports memorabilia publications, sold for thousands of dollars, even though they were never used in the games.

Graessle, Clark's longtime friend, a freelance sports photographer and sports memorabilia dealer, admitted that he sold the baseballs to other sports memorabilia dealers, who in turn sold them to the public.

Advertisements in sports magazines and sports trading publications put the pricetag on some of the Al Clark baseballs at more than $2,000 at the height of their marketability.

In one of the examples described in the Informations to which Clark and Graessle pleaded guilty, Graessle obtained commemorative Ripken baseballs, thousands of which were manufactured specifically to mark the games in which Ripken tied and broke Gehrig's record. They were imprinted with Ripken's team number, had orange stitching (Baltimore Oriole colors), and the number 2,130 and 2,311 embossed on them, representing Gehrig's and Ripken's consecutive-games-played record.

Graessle either mailed the baseballs to Clark or delivered them personally to Clark, who would sign them. They also rubbed the balls with the mud from a particular creek in Burlington County, N.J. - to conform to Major League Baseball's custom of burnishing all balls used in MLB games with that mud - and to bolster their claim that the balls had actually been used in the historic games.

According to the Information to which he pleaded guilty, Clark signed certificates of authenticity that Graessle prepared, certifying that Clark was a member of the umpire crew in that particular game and that the baseballs were indeed used in the game. Graessle admitted that he then sold the balls to dealers who, in turn, sold them to the public - at prices greatly increased by the fraudulent certificates of authenticity. Clark himself prepared some certificates of authenticity in the case of the Ripken baseballs, according to his Information.

Having met with success in the falsification of the Ripken baseballs, Clark and Graessle continued the fraud by falsely certifying the authenticity of baseballs used in other notable games in which Clark had served as an umpire. Those details are further set forth in the Informations to which the defendants pleaded guilty.

They are available at the Public Affairs Office website: www.njusao.org (http://www.njusao.org)

Graessle admitted failing to declare several hundred thousand dollars in income from the sale of these baseballs and other sports memorabilia on his federal income tax returns.

Christie credited the Special Agents of the Internal Revenue Service Criminal Investigation section, under the direction of Special Agent in Charge Patricia J. Haynes; and Special Agents of the FBI Newark Division, under the direction of Special Agent in Charge Joseph Billy Jr.

The case is being handled by Assistant U.S. Attorney John Vazquez, of the U.S. Attorney's Office in Newark.

- end -
Defense Counsel:
Clark: David Fassett, Esq. Chatham
Graessle: Frank J. Crupi, Esq. Livingston

byergo
08-06-2007, 09:54 AM
I realize that an umpire has been busted for fraud in the past (not this one), but I conducted my research prior to pulling the trigger on the ball. Durwood Merrill was a man of great integrity who was highly respected and served the game for over two decades, and was never involved in anything untoward/illegal/unethical. And it's not like MLB was issuing hologram online certs in 1988! I really don't know how much better the provenance could be?!

I also couldn't find any other LOA's from Durwood (nothing for sale anywhere on ebay or that can be googled), so it's not like there is a ton of items with his letter floating around. As far as his access to obtain the ball, he was a famous umpire and would have tremendous access/connections to obtain the ball from baseball staff, players, etc... up to and including Bo Jackson himself, whom was a personal friend.

Thanks for sharing the info. I want to analyze every angle to make sure that I own the piece of history that I think I own. If it's real, as I believe it is, it's a truly special, historically significant item.

allstarsplus
08-06-2007, 10:50 AM
I also couldn't find any other LOA's from Durwood (nothing for sale anywhere on ebay or that can be googled), so it's not like there is a ton of items with his letter floating around.

Byergo - Merrill's LOA is his standard LOA with the "fill in the blanks". If he didn't do lots of LOA's then why use a form letter and drop in the one liner of what it is "BO JACKSON AUTOGRAPHED 1988 HOMERUN #12 BASEBALL". Luckily he put a pic of the ball in the bottom right which matches your ball.

You are correct that pre-MLB holograms you have to rely on alternative documentation.

Umpires do sometimes collect HR balls that come back in the field of play, but it would need some provenance to explain how Merrill collected a 500 foot blast that went out of the field of play.

I agree with you that the LOA helps. You paid a price which seems like a great price for a regular signed Bo Jackson so the HR provenance it a plus. Hopefully one day you can meet up with Bo at a show and see what he can tell you about the ball.



http://i4.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/9e/52/b0d6_1.JPG

byergo
08-06-2007, 10:58 AM
In his autobiography, Merrill wrote about how Bo promised to hit a homerun for him prior to a game he was calling, he teased Bo late in the game about how he didn't hit a HR, then in Bo's last at bat he cranked one out of the park and gave him the autographed HR bat after the game. He tried to give him the bat immediately upon rounding the bases, but Durwood was worried that that might cause a problem with MLB admistration! I'm sure there is a neat story to go with this ball. Hope I get to hear it someday.

sylbry
08-06-2007, 11:31 AM
I found it was odd an ump would end up with a HR ball, afterall he is on the field working when the ball went over the fence.

What really makes this ball a stretch in my opinion is the fact that this ump was working the Twins v Orioles game in Baltimore at the time Bo hit is 12th homer of 1988.

byergo
08-06-2007, 01:12 PM
I'm being serious here, why would you find it odd that a prominant umpire would end up with an autographed home run baseball from a player he was friends with? Do you like controversy or to you really find it that odd? With so many of us "average Joe's" out there owning high quality game used items, why would it be strange for someone who spend their entire life in the game of baseball and knew everyone in the game would end up with a number of exceptional items for their personal collection? Or for that matter any player, team excecutive, agent, bat boy, etc...?

If the ball isn't legit (which I have no reason whatsover to believe) of course I'd want to be the first to know, not that it's for sale anyway; but I won't come to that conclusion on baseless speculation. I guess to sum up my opinion: I find it odd that you find it so odd!

sylbry
08-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Whether the ball is real or not doesn't affect me in anyway. For your sake I hope the ball is real and it would be a great find.

However saying the ball has great provenance is very far fetched. It has a letter from a guy that was hundreds of miles away when the event occurred. The ump didn't catch it, didn't see the person who caught it, didn't receive it from the person who caught it, nor was he even in the ballpark when it happened. Kind of hard to attest to it's authenticity when you were not even there.

You are basing the authenticity of the ball on the letter because in no way does this ball speak for it's self. The letter is generic. It is more a letter about the ump that explains him and his credibility. At the bottom the picture and ball description was inserted. It seems vague on purpose. What does "Bo Jackson autographed 1988 homerun #12" really mean? Was this ball hit by Bo? Was this ball used in a game in which Bo hit his 12th homerun? No where on this letter does it specifically state that this ball is Bo Jackson's homerun ball. The author of the letter gives you enough info to connect the dots and assume it is Bo's ball without stating it. Why is that? (Sort of like a Joe Dimaggio autograph with a J. Dimaggio LOA. You may think the J stands for Joe but it is Jim, and he has no idea what a real Joe Dimaggio autograph is.)

Can you even be sure that the letter is really from the ump. (I can duplicate that letter.) Do you know if that is really his signature on the letter? In addition, doctoring baseballs shouldn't be that hard. Not hard to get a signed game used ball and write some additional info on it.

Furthurmore, Merrill died at the age of 65 in 2003. Does the letter look like it is at least 4.5 years old or does it look fresh? Would Merrill have had the foresight (or the need) to be making LOAs for his items before his death? Digital photography and photoshop software wasn't as popular and user friendly at that time.

You are correct in that we all have obtained items which are many steps or owners removed from their game or event. However we are not all writing our own LOAs attesting to their authenticity.

Not trying to create controversy here. Just being consistent. Questioning suspect items doesn't stop at Lou Lampson. And I would most certainly hope others bring to light facts about items I own that may be suspect in their eyes.

Bryan

sylbry
08-06-2007, 03:55 PM
Whether the ball is real or not doesn't affect me in anyway. For your sake I hope the ball is real and it would be a great find.

However saying the ball has great provenance is very far fetched. It has a letter from a guy that was hundreds of miles away when the event occurred. The ump didn't catch it, didn't see the person who caught it, didn't receive it from the person who caught it, nor was he even in the ballpark when it happened. Kind of hard to attest to it's authenticity when you were not even there.

You are basing the authenticity of the ball on the letter because in no way does this ball speak for it's self. The letter is generic. It is more a letter about the ump that explains him and his credibility. At the bottom the picture and ball description was inserted. It seems vague on purpose. What does "Bo Jackson autographed 1988 homerun #12" really mean? Was this ball hit by Bo? Was this ball used in a game in which Bo hit his 12th homerun? No where on this letter does it specifically state that this ball is Bo Jackson's homerun ball. The author of the letter gives you enough info to connect the dots and assume it is Bo's ball without stating it. Why is that? (Sort of like a Joe Dimaggio autograph with a J. Dimaggio LOA. You may think the J stands for Joe but it is Jim, and he has no idea what a real Joe Dimaggio autograph is.)

Can you even be sure that the letter is really from the ump. (I can duplicate that letter.) Do you know if that is really his signature on the letter? In addition, doctoring baseballs shouldn't be that hard. Not hard to get a signed game used ball and write some additional info on it.

Furthurmore, Merrill died at the age of 65 in 2003. Does the letter look like it is at least 4.5 years old or does it look fresh? Would Merrill have had the foresight (or the need) to be making LOAs for his items before his death? Digital photography and photoshop software wasn't as popular and user friendly at that time.

You are correct in that we all have obtained items which are many steps or owners removed from their game or event. However we are not all writing our own LOAs attesting to their authenticity.

Not trying to create controversy here. Just being consistent. Questioning suspect items doesn't stop at Lou Lampson. And I would most certainly hope others bring to light facts about items I own that may be suspect in their eyes.

Bryan

sylbry
08-06-2007, 03:56 PM
Sorry for the double post. Would a mod please delete one?

Thanks.

byergo
08-06-2007, 04:03 PM
I wish I had those two minutes of my life back. Keep up the good work saving the world man! Some of you guys really crack me up!

nycsports
08-06-2007, 04:36 PM
Very good points sylbry. I think it is safe to say that there is no way to be 100% certain that the ball is the actual Home Run ball. The letter helps, but at the same time there is a lot that doesn't match up. Byergo, maybe if you were lucky enough to talk to Bo, he could help fill in some of the gaps. He may say that he remembers hitting the home run onto the street, but was never able to track down the ball. For your sake though, I do hope that the ball is the real HR ball. Good luck with your research.

byergo
08-06-2007, 04:44 PM
I never said anything about a street. I don't know the exact config of Fenway. I do know it has changed, as apparently the scoreboard Bo hit the HR over is no longer there.

sylbry
08-06-2007, 10:07 PM
If the ball isn't legit (which I have no reason whatsover to believe) of course I'd want to be the first to know, not that it's for sale anyway; but I won't come to that conclusion on baseless speculation. I guess to sum up my opinion: I find it odd that you find it so odd!

The above statement seems to contradict the below statement.



I wish I had those two minutes of my life back. Keep up the good work saving the world man! Some of you guys really crack me up!

Amazing how you couldn't comment on one issue I brought up. And here I thought I would get a thank you for digging up the fact that Merrill didn't work at that game in which the HR was hit and he passed away 4.5 years ago. j/k

Anyways, just chalk this discussion up to each individual's level of comfort. Not the first time we didn't see eye to eye on Bo stuff.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1556

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8966

sylbry
08-07-2007, 08:21 AM
I asked how do you even know if that is Durwood's signature. Here is one for comparison.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Umpire-Durwood-Merrill-SIGNED-Yer-Out-Yer-Ugly-Too_W0QQitemZ120145256787QQcmdZViewItem

The LOA

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300110442461&rd=1&rd=1

sylbry
08-07-2007, 08:41 AM
And on a related note check out this Mark Grace ball.

http://www.gracecollector.com/theoddballs.html

An AL ump working in Texas has a HR ball from a NL game taking place in Pittsburg.

Other Merrill balls.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=8765

Again, AL ump NL ball. Merrill was in Detroit that day.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=8767

Game was played in Baltimore, Merrill was in Cleveland.

sylbry
08-07-2007, 09:02 AM
Last post.

Interesting note. Durwood's collection was sold in March 2003. He died in January 2003.

http://www.markgrace.com/memorabilia6.html

(Same Mark Grace ball, different website. This site has an LOA online.)

I would imagine this research is far more exhaustive that you performed. Certainly you can not say you wish you had your two minutes back.

byergo
08-07-2007, 10:10 AM
I honestly felt like you were coming into this with a negative slant or agenda, but the more I see you post the more confident I am in the ball.

Thanks for putting in the time.