Am I being unreasonable?

[Birdbats]

I recently purchased a bat on eBay that I don't believe was described accurately, and after receiving it, I shared my concerns with the seller. Here is the eBay description and the photo that was included (underlining added by me):

You are bidding on a signed game used bat from Kerry Robinson. It's a red colored Louisville Slugger Model I13. It has the players name and team name engraved and is signed boldly in blue sharpie. This bat was used by, obtained from, and signed by the player listed above. Check out the scan! All bats are GAME USED meaning they have ball marks, dirt, pine tar, tape, etc. This bat has a crack in the barrel and handle and was glued back together profesionally. Shipping is $13.50 per bat in the US. Sorry, no shipping outside the US. I have a huge collection of game used bats so please check out my other auctions, as I'm planning to list approximately 130 in the next few weeks. Further pictures are available upon request. Don't miss your chance to own something used by your favorite player!

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/Bats/KRobeBay.jpg

Here are photos of the bat I received:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/Bats/KRob.jpg

I contacted the seller and told him the bat was used by a player other than Robinson (Kerry wore #13 and #0; #29 was Stubby Clapp in 2001); that I don't consider a bat broken in three pieces to have "a crack in the barrel and handle;" and that I don't consider a repair with gaps and raised edges to be "professional."

He replied that the bat was used by both Robinson and Clapp; that his description of the crack was accurate; and that the repair was done by a "woodworker/shop foreman." He suggested that in the future, a buyer like me with "specific condition requirements" ask questions and request more photos.

Whether the omissions were intentional or not, the fact remains that the bat has another player's number on it and it was broken in three pieces before being "repaired." It's also my opinion that the repair is below average.

My unhappiness has little to do with the money. The bat was $37 plus $16.50 shipping. It's the principle of the thing.

Am I wrong to be disappointed with this bat/transaction? How would you handle this situation if you were me (I have not left feedback yet on eBay)? Knowing my unhappiness with the transaction, what would you do if you were the seller?

Also, for the record, what's your definition of "cracked?" Is that word adequate to describe a bat that is or has been in two or more pieces?

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[Vintagedeputy]

To me, "cracked" means that a smaller portion has separated from the main portion but that it remains in relatively one piece. Bats in numerous pieces that are repaired are just flat out "broken" in my opinion and should be represented as such..

[CardinalsFan]

Jeff,

I am by no means an expert, but I would have to agree that for me cracked means the bat remains in one piece. I also find it interesting that if the bat were used by, and obtained from the player listed, his number is not even on the bat. It seems odd to me.

[b.heagy]

The repair should have been in the description, no questions about it. It affects the value/interest in the piece as we all know. If I had sold the bat and you were unhappy? refund without hesitation. The uniform number? That would be on you the buyer if the photo's were present in the listing and you did not check it out. It seems you can live with the numbers just not the fact that the bat in worse shape than described. Just my thoughts.

[aeneas01]

imo you are not being unreasonable at all - further, i think the seller has intentionally chosen to list his cracked bats in a manner which significantly downplays the extent of damage given the single photo in his ads.

if it were me i would return the item and reverse all charges, including s&h, which would be easy to do given that i use my credit card through paypal. but i don't know how you paid for it nor do i know if you want to pursue this given the relatively small dollar amount.

i guess i'm just of the opinion that items should be returned if not accurately described - if not, sellers have little motivation to change their ways.

[Vintagedeputy]

In regards to the "one photo" ad - I understand that ebay charges for additional photos (.15) after the first one, but I am becoming increasingly more aggravated with bat sellers that show one half-assed pic of a bat. I would say that I probably send at least one email a day asking for additional pics of the knob, barrell, writing, ball marks, label, centerbrand etc.

Some people list things like they dont really even want to sell it.

[XPFO]

I would be filing a complaint with Paypal if he doesn't give you your money back....no offence but that bat is firewood in my eyes.

[woodbat]

Jeff,
Am I being unreasonable? NOPE, just realistic!!!!!!
These pictures are worse that what you described to me earlier. I have a same Kerry Robinson LS Model I13 Rosewood bat, (COA Cardinals). It has 13 on the knob and barrel end, and he only wore 13 in 2001 with StL. The knob also displays a BP. When Kerry did a benefit card show at John A. Logan College in January 2002, I asked him about the BP and he told me that when his bats were no longer suitable for major league AB's, he would mark and use them for BP. But he always put his number on his bats. I would venture a guess that Stubby "acquired" one of Kerry's "new" bats to use as I don't see a #13, only #29. Stubby wore #29, and was with StL only in 2001, played in 8 games and had 5 hits in 25 AB. Did Kerry ever use the bat? It looks like he signed it, but that is probably all. The seller stated that the bat was used by both players, go figure.....file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MFT@AE%7E1.NET/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MFT@AE%7E1.NET/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg
If you did the bat by pay pal, then you know what you ought to be doing!!!!!! I wouldn't mess with any feedback as you would probably get hit with a negative, out of spite. Also $13.50 is a little stout for shipping one bat in the lower 48, unless he did a bunch of the USPS perks.
You could say that a "cracked" bat would exhibit grain/wood separation, but the bat would still be in one piece. Maybe a new term, for this bat, could be "exploded"!!
LMK the rest of this story!!
Don
woodbat@bellsouth.net

[woodbat]

Jeff,
Am I being unreasonable? NOPE, just realistic!!!!!!
These pictures are worse that what you described to me earlier. I have a same Kerry Robinson LS Model I13 Rosewood bat, (COA Cardinals). It has 13 on the knob and barrel end, and he only wore 13 in 2001 with StL. The knob also displays a BP. When Kerry did a benefit card show at John A. Logan College in January 2002, I asked him about the BP and he told me that when his bats were no longer suitable for major league AB's, he would mark and use them for BP. But he always put his number on his bats. I would venture a guess that Stubby "acquired" one of Kerry's "new" bats to use as I don't see a #13, only #29. Stubby wore #29, and was with StL only in 2001, played in 8 games and had 5 hits in 25 AB. Did Kerry ever use the bat? It looks like he signed it, but that is probably all. The seller stated that the bat was used by both players, go figure.....If you did the bat by pay pal, then you know what you ought to be doing!!!!!! I wouldn't mess with any feedback as you would probably get hit with a negative, out of spite. Also $13.50 is a little stout for shipping one bat in the lower 48, unless he did a bunch of the USPS perks.
You could say that a "cracked" bat would exhibit grain/wood separation, but the bat would still be in one piece. Maybe a new term, for this bat, could be "exploded"!!
LMK the rest of this story!!
Don
woodbat@bellsouth.net

Sorry about the last post, something went south!!!

[Birdbats]

I just received my second and apparently last e-mail from the seller of this bat. For the benefit of bat collectors thinking about bidding in any eBay auction by randi319, here is the transcript of our messages to each other:



From: Jeff Scott <birdbats@charter.net> (birdbats@charter.net)
To: sethlivingston@hotmail.com, itrainsalatte@msn.com
Subject: RE: You Won eBay Item: KERRY ROBINSON AUTOGRAPHED SIGNED GAME USED BAT CARDS (150142477613)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:39:21 -0500

Melissa/Seth,

I received the Kerry Robinson bat today and have to admit I'm not exactly thrilled. I don't feel the description accurately described the use or the condition of the bat. For example...

You are bidding on a signed game used bat from Kerry Robinson. It's a red colored Louisville Slugger Model I13. It has the players name and team name engraved and is signed boldly in blue sharpie. This bat was used by, obtained from, and signed by the player listed above.

Actually, the bat has #29 on both ends, suggesting it was used by Stubby Clapp in 2001, not Kerry Robinson. Kerry wore #13 and #0 with the Cardinals. I'd love to have a Stubby Clapp bat, but not a Robinson bat used by Clapp.

Check out the scan! All bats are GAME USED meaning they have ball marks, dirt, pine tar, tape, etc. This bat has a crack in the barrel and handle and was glued back together professionally.

This bat was not cracked, it was broken in three pieces. That's much different than "cracked." And the repair is not professional. I expect to see where the crack was after a repair, but you shouldn't be able to feel raised edges and see gaps. This is not a very good repair.

If this bat had been described accurately ("A Kerry Robinson bat with #29 on both ends that was broken in three pieces and repaired"), I would not have bid on it.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on how we can fix this situation. Thanks.

Jeff
"birdbats" on eBay




Seth Livingston wrote:


First off I'll say I'm glad you received your bat 4 days from the auction end. As for your issues, I'll take them in order. First, you noticed the number 29 was written on the knob. In my 12 + years of obtaining bats I've seen several players share bats. In fact it's not uncommon. One player uses it for an AB and then hands it back to the other player for his AB. This is in fact the story with this bat. Stubby and Kerry were both using this bat over the course of a series and it was subsequently cracked. So your doubts that it was actually used by Kerry Robinson, though somewhat justified, are inaccurate. Second, I listed the bat as having a crack in the handle and barrel because it does. Not once did I state it was fully intact OR in cracked in half. I would expect the buyer to ask that question if that was a make or break point on them bidding. As far as the professional repair, it was done buy a woodworker/shop foreman in the area. The reason there are what you consider 'gaps' is because when a bat breaks, usually it's not perfectly clean. There are fragments that splinter off accounting for the 'gaps' which were 1/8 of an inch wide at most. In my opnion, this was described accurately and the issues you have are because you had a different picture in your head than I did as to what a crack was. You never once asked for additional pictures nor asked any questions about this item. I would have answered any and all questions you had about this bat and would have sent any picture(s) you would have requested. As a buyer with specific condition requirements, as you appear to have, I would encourage you to ask more questions before bidding in the future.






From: Jeff Scott <birdbats@charter.net> (birdbats@charter.net)
To: Seth Livingston <sethlivingston@hotmail.com> (sethlivingston@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: You Won eBay Item: KERRY ROBINSON AUTOGRAPHED SIGNED GAME USED BAT CARDS (150142477613)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 23:25:34 -0500

I, too, have been collecting bats for many years. I also repair bats. So, I completely understand how bats are shared and how repairs are done properly.

First, to say the bat was used by Robinson is conjecture; it may have been, it may not have been. There's no question, however, that it has #29 on both ends. To not mention this is misleading. Any player's bat having a number on the knob that is different than the player's number reduces it's appeal. As someone who has collected for 12+ years, I would assume you know that.

Second, saying a bat broken in three pieces is "cracked" is akin to saying a car involved in a head-on collision is "dented." A bone broken in two is not considered
"cracked," and neither is a bat. I don't think I'm alone in that opinion. Again, to not mention the severity of the damage is misleading. Many collectors want nothing to do with a bat that was broken in multiple pieces. Again, as a long-time collector, I assume you would know that.

Third, regardless of who did the repair, it does not appear to be professionally done. The gaps to which I refer are not a result of splintering -- they're a result of the pieces not being aligned properly when it was glued. If this was your bat, I can't imagine you would be pleased with the quality of the work.

I expect eBay sellers to be forthcoming about things like bats having other players' numbers on the knob, or being broken in multiple pieces. I shouldn't have to ask what number is on the knob or how bad the crack is. When you say a bat is used by Robinson, that implies nobody else's number is on the knob. When you say a bat is cracked, that implies it still is in one piece. Putting the blame on me for not asking what vital information you omitted is laughable. Shame on me for trusting that your description was not leaving out pertinent information that might have changed my buying decision.

Are you really willing to risk your perfect eBay feedback rating over this particular bat? I don't like to leave negative feedback -- have done it just twice in 507 transactions, the last being more than seven years ago. Like you, I also have a perfect feedback rating. I'm not a reckless eBay user or someone looking to cause problems. I'd much prefer we reach some compromise. In this case, I believe you omitted important information, understated the severity of the crack and suggested the repair was better than it actually is. Do you honestly feel I don't have a right to be dissatisfied simply because I didn't ask for a more detailed description than the one you wrote?




Seth Livingston wrote:

As I read your last e-mail, I couldn't help but notice a few points you made. For you to say the bat may or may not have been used by Kerry Robinson is a guess for you at best...however I know for a fact he used it on several occasions because I witnessed it personally.

To make no mention of any markings on the knob of the bat, number or otherwise, is not misleading. Misleading would be the correct term had I stated there was nothing on the knob or possibly a different number. I did neither. As far as a bat with a different number on the knob than the player wore reducing the appeal...well, that is simply your opnion. My opnion happens to differ.

As far as the 'cracks' in the bat go, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. The bat had both a crack in the barrel and handle as stated. It seems we differ in what our opnion of a crack is. When it comes to not mentioning the severity of, what you call damage, I believe I did in saying the bat was cracked in multiple places. Maybe it wasn't described in the meticulous detail you would have liked, but again, you had 7 days to ask any and all questions and request further pictures. You did neither.



It sounds to me like you made more than one assumption about this item and the Buyer Tips link on the E-bay website state the following:
Avoid making assumptions about details that aren't included in the description;
Ask the seller questions. If you have any questions or are unsure about something, contact the seller by clicking their User ID or the "ask seller a question" link on the item listing page. Common questions include "Do you accept returns?"

Also on the E-bay site:
Returns – Examine the seller's return policy carefully before you bid. Contact the seller before you bid with any questions about the return policy. Some questions you might want to ask include:
Does the seller accept returns, or is the item sold "as is"?

The repair was done by a professional woodworker, hence the term 'professionally done.' Once again it is simply your opnion that it does not appear to be professionally done. Again, I disagree with your opnion. You stated that if it were my bat you couldn't imagine I would be pleased with the quality of work. I hate to break it to you, but for close to 6 years this was my bat and I was quite pleased with the quality of the repair.

If you shouldn't have to ask what number is on the knob or how bad the crack is, explain to me why over 30 people did on the auctions I had for bats? I would guess it's because they wanted as much information as they could get on the item before bidding. How descriptive should I have been? Should I account for every bat rack mark? Each speck of dirt? I mentioned the multiple cracks and the quote in the description says, "glued back together." If anything was implied, it was the notion that it was in pieces. If you found that too vague, I'll suggest the same thing E-bay suggests...Ask questions. You stated that my saying the bat was used by Robinson implied nobody else's number was on the knob. That couldn't be further from the truth. The statement I made implied exactly what it said, it was used by Robinson. Don't get your assumptions mixed up with a clear, simple and accurate statement.

Finally, I offered nothing in the way of returns/refunds in the auction and I would have hoped it caught your eye, possibly prompting you to ask all of the questions you needed to and request photos. Every single person I have sold a bat to is thrilled with the exception of yourself. It appears you have very high standards when it comes to the items you bid on, yet I have no indication that you made any efforts to find out if this item met any of those standards. That seems a bit careless in my opnion.

Do what you need to do to make yourself feel better about this transaction. I feel that my reputation speaks for itself. I will not welcome any further bids from you on any of my current auctions or auctions in the future. Likewise with any e-mails.




Jeff Scott wrote:


Clearly I'm getting nowhere here. Yesterday, I posted photos of the bat and your eBay description on Game Used Forum and asked fellow collectors if I was being unreasonable. Here's a link to the thread with their replies so far: http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9847

I will add to that thread later today by including our e-mail conversation verbatim. My only satisfaction will have to come from letting other bat collectors know your approach to selling bats and your approach to dealing with customers.

[sammy]

The seller was, and is dishonest in his description.

I personally will not do business with this person, nor would I recommend him to anyone.

To have this attitude over an item that cost 30+ dollars is ridiculous.

He should have promptly refunded your money, or asked how he could make the transaction better for you, the customer.

[otismalibu]

The repair was done by a professional woodworker, hence the term 'professionally done.'

I going to guess this is not the work of Norm Abram.

[XPFO]

The seller is deceptive, plain and simple...paypal claim immediatley. Lets start a boycott until you get your money back!!!

[woodbat]

Just a side bar to this. I do a little wood work, make my own bat racks etc., however have not tried to repair a bat. I have had Jeff (birdbats) do several of my repairs and have always received an outstanding job. To me there is just a little knack in these types of repair, and when I have several $ invested, really don't wish to chance a "mistake". I know there are probably several folks who do this type of repair, but Jeff has always done me right. In closing, if he says a bat has a less than professional repair job, then you can take it to the bank!!!!
woodbat

[sayhey24]

Jeff,

You are absolutely right and the seller is absolutely wrong. I Just had a similar experience with some badly trimmed baseball postcards I won on ebay. despite a lengthy and fairly complete description, there was no mention that the cards were trimmed by about a third, and identifying marks that the seller said were on the back of the postcards were not there on three of the four.
When I expressed my concern and said I planned on returning them, I was told the same as you -- if I was so concerned about condition, I should have asked questions.
Both these sellers seem to be saying that buyers have to question the descriptions of any item, even though in both these cases there were lengthy descriptions. I always ask questions when descriptions are missing key elements, but are we now required to question the validity and honesty of everything said in every description?

Greg

[B1SON]

The seller is deceptive, plain and simple...paypal claim immediatley. Lets start a boycott until you get your money back!!!

Lets help win one for the good guys! ;)

[aeneas01]

the sad thing is if the seller just took the bat back and relisted it more accurately, he could still probably get $20-$25 plus s&h for it - the fact he has chosen this ridiculous course only seems to confirm his lack of decency.

when using paypal, always use your credit card to make payment - and if you don't want to carry the balance on your card then simply jockey over to your credit card company's website and make an online payment for the amount. by doing this you will always be completely protected and all charges, including s&h, can be easily be reversed if you run into an unscrupulous seller - and there's nothing the seller, ebay or paypal can do about it...