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aeneas01
07-11-2007, 07:43 AM
radtke sports and gridiron authentics, both prolific ebayers, currently have "game issue" favre helmets for sale on ebay - and you gotta love their item descriptions...

radtke sports:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint, usa tribute flag, clear warning decal..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTOGRAPHED-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-2004-PACKERS_W0QQitemZ230148448117QQihZ013QQcategoryZ27 276QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

gridiron authentics:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint.... usa tribute flag..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO-11-22-01-GAME-ISSUE-TB-HELMET-BF-COA_W0QQitemZ260134640449QQihZ016QQcategoryZ27276Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

hmmm....

radtke goes on to describe his item as a "brett favre autographed 2004 game issue helmet" which is particularly interesting considering the helmet he's hawking is a riddell vsr4 model which favre doesn't wear - favre wears an older riddell model which can be easily verified in photos. these older riddell models were fitted with small plastic posts that held the interior padding in place and these posts were easily visible on the outside of the helmet given they protruded through the helmet shell. riddell replaced these small plastic posts with velcro when they introduced the vsr4 model, which is what radtke is selling, thereby eliminating the need to drill the shell for posts. as such, you won't see any post holes in the vsr4 model - post holes which are very evident on favre's helmet.

even our favorite crook, lambeauleeper, was smart enough not to dress up a vsr4 helmet and try to pass it off on ebay as a favre game issue helmet when he was hawking his versions of "game issued brett favre helmets, issued to brett favre for on-field game use...". but lambeauleeper missed the boat as well given that he also dressed up the wrong riddell model.

gridiron authentics not only has a "game issue" favre helmet listed on ebay but now also has a "tom brady 2001 patriots game issue helmet" with a starting price of $985. ga descibes the brady listing as a "...tom brady new england patriots game issue helmet from the 2001 season and specifically the game against the Jets... helmet is extremely rare. it is not a home-made or 'rigged' piece..."

this item description is more than laughable especially given that this offering is exactly what ga says it's not - "a home-made... rigged piece..." the facemask is incorrect, the chinstrap is incorrect and the patriot side decals aren't even close to being positioned correctly - many seasoned ebay helmet reproducers have offered much more accurate brady reproductions in the past without the "game issue" nonsense and the hefty price tag. apparently gridiron authentics feels the 911 memorial decal they've included adds about $800 to the worth of this weak reproduction.

i must say, however, that i was at least happy to see that ga made it a point to state brady never wore this helmet and made a better effort to describe it as "customized" which wasn't the case with the favre helmet - i would also like to think that my emails to ga concerning the favre helmet may have had something to do with this but who knows. one thing is certain, the responses i did receive from ga regarding the favre helmet were so mind numbingly ridiculous given their absurd double-talk that i was not left with an impression of honesty. so absurd was the bs in these responses that i don't feel comfortable posting them here as it would be tremendously embarrassing for ga - but if anyone is that interested please pm me and i will send them to you.

mvandor
07-11-2007, 12:13 PM
As someone who has defended both companies here (although I too have expressed disappointment to Rick Radtke over his abuse of the term "game issue"), I'm most interested in hearing the full story and your uncensored views. E-mail is mvandor@simpworld.com

Up until now, I have been of the impression that GA's game issued items were legit, however, you're calling them into question now so I'd appreciate the scoop.

BTW, for the record, I have never purchased anything sold as "game issued" from either party.

mvandor
07-11-2007, 12:40 PM
Could not find a Brady pic from the 2001 Jets game but found this for some comparison. Only discrepancy I picked up was the rear bumper font.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/659835.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19332EFD823EFD41CFDC7881B9BC2CEC064

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/viewimage.x/00000000/gridironlegends/bradygih911_3.jpg?vvid=51866655&allow_track_link=1&track=023826a160-b296e&sp=1

Interestingly, it appeared this is before Brady was starting, all shots on Getty showed Bledsoe at QB.

mvandor
07-11-2007, 12:44 PM
Did locate this 2001 pic of Brady and I would concur it LOOKS like the GA has a soft chinstrap with incorrect Riddell lettering as compared to this one. I don't see the facemask issue you cite though...

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51985787.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AE5E3E7DB8E314177244F079E4A49B57

radtke
07-11-2007, 01:01 PM
We are not trying to mislead anyone by the the "Game Issued" statement. The NFL teams give the athletes 2 helmets a year, one to wear on the field and one as a back-up. I guess the back-up you can call a "Game Issue". Which in this business is a very loose term considering what passes as "Game Issues". If we received one of the back-ups issued to Favre or any other player of his stature it would be much higher in price than $500.00 price tag. We will be changing the descriptions to "Game Style" helmets from now on. The differences as you see in the "Game Style" helmet were created because a lot of collectors want all the decals, facemasks, and chin straps that their favorite players wear. Unfortunatley, Ridell does not sell Regular Pro-Lines with the decals or facemasks like that to the general public. Thus, creating a market for helmets to be altered to accomadate the collector who wants something a bit more like what Favre is wearing on the field . We appreciate the feedback and we take it very seriously here. We are available MON-FRI 9AM-6PM EST. Our phone number is readily available if you have questions or concerns.

mvandor
07-11-2007, 01:10 PM
We are not trying to mislead anyone by the the "Game Issued" statement. The NFL teams give the athletes 2 helmets a year, one to wear on the field and one as a back-up. I guess the back-up you can call a "Game Issue". Which in this business is a very loose term considering what passes as "Game Issues". If we received one of the back-ups issued to Favre or any other player of his stature it would be much higher in price than $500.00 price tag. We will be changing the descriptions to "Game Style" helmets from now on. The differences as you see in the "Game Style" helmet were created because a lot of collectors want all the decals, facemasks, and chin straps that their favorite players wear. Unfortunatley, Ridell does not sell Regular Pro-Lines with the decals or facemasks like that to the general public. Thus, creating a market for helmets to be altered to accomadate the collector who wants something a bit more like what Favre is wearing on the field . We appreciate the feedback and we take it very seriously here. We are available MON-FRI 9AM-6PM EST. Our phone number is readily available if you have questions or concerns.
Rick, kudos for addressing the issue. I have expressed concerns to you previously by email over your use of the term "game issue" to describe helmets customized to approximate game used helmets issued by the teams. This change is certainly a significant movement toward better "truth in advertising".

big1Z
07-11-2007, 07:15 PM
You beat me to the punch. Like I said they are all guilty if not more than lambeauleeper. Favre currently wears a WD-2 at least lambeau had a 1996 WD-1 when he had the Favre Super Bowl 31 lid. From my emails with lambeau he never admitted "dressing" up a Proline like Radtke did (not saying he didn't either). Also lambeau at least got the placement right on his decals and used the correct size. BRADY WEARS A XL HELMET! DUH!!!! Not to defend lambeau but he was THE FIRST to come clean. I will poast more abuse as I see it and appreciate comments. PS mvandor you got a deal from lameau on your charges helmet if your reputable buddy Gridiron Authentics starting bid is $985.00 and claims to have sold his made up helmets signed by Brady for $1,400.00. I guess they're ALL crooks....I wouldn't be surprised if they get all their helmets from the same source. Now this is REAL STUFF...........

Eric
07-11-2007, 07:27 PM
Big1Z

I sent you an email at the address you registered with. I got a recept that said you read it. Please write me back ASAP
Thank you
Eric
ecky3@aol.com

Eric
07-11-2007, 07:42 PM
Big1Z

How do you explain the fact that you are posting from the same IP address as 34DD who has been banned from this site.

34DD is also known as lambeauleeper.

Hmm

mvandor
07-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Big1Z

How do you explain the fact that you are posting from the same IP address as 34DD who has been banned from this site.

34DD is also known as lambeauleeper.

Hmm
LOL, exposed again. ***content removed. let's not pile on please***
Nevertheless, this discussion HAS lead to lambeau cleaning up his language a bit and now Rick Radtke is addressing the issue of misuse of the term "game issue". Now if Gridiron Authentics responds, we'll be 3 for 3 and the collecting hobby will have taken a small step forward.

aeneas01
07-12-2007, 02:51 AM
We are not trying to mislead anyone by the the "Game Issued" statement. The NFL teams give the athletes 2 helmets a year, one to wear on the field and one as a back-up. I guess the back-up you can call a "Game Issue". Which in this business is a very loose term considering what passes as "Game Issues". If we received one of the back-ups issued to Favre or any other player of his stature it would be much higher in price than $500.00 price tag. We will be changing the descriptions to "Game Style" helmets from now on. The differences as you see in the "Game Style" helmet were created because a lot of collectors want all the decals, facemasks, and chin straps that their favorite players wear. Unfortunatley, Ridell does not sell Regular Pro-Lines with the decals or facemasks like that to the general public. Thus, creating a market for helmets to be altered to accomadate the collector who wants something a bit more like what Favre is wearing on the field . We appreciate the feedback and we take it very seriously here. We are available MON-FRI 9AM-6PM EST. Our phone number is readily available if you have questions or concerns.

first of all i have to say how very impressed i am with this post and the edited ebay relisting of the favre helmet! very well done and imo will go a very long way in cementing your reputation as a well-respected, honest dealer.

but i would like to comment on a couple of things you mentioned in your posts as follows:

..."Game Issue". Which in this business is a very loose term considering what passes as "Game Issues".

"this business" you mention is you and you are an industry leader - the term "game issue" is only a loose term because you have allowed it to be and have facilitated its misuse. when industry leaders such as yourself stop misusing the term then it will be painfully easy to spot the small-time crooks such as lambeauleeper when they continue to throw the term around.

but, again, what you did here today and on ebay was very, very commendable and a huge step forward imo - and it could also go a long way in righting the ship.

The differences as you see in the "Game Style" helmet were created because a lot of collectors want all the decals, facemasks, and chin straps that their favorite players wear. Unfortunatley, Ridell does not sell Regular Pro-Lines with the decals or facemasks like that to the general public. Thus, creating a market for helmets to be altered to accomadate the collector who wants something a bit more like what Favre is wearing on the field .

the relatively recent availabilty of pro/college on field decals has been a double-edged sword. on one hand it has given collectors something that was never available before - easy access to helmets that very closely match what the players actually wear on the field at a potentially very reasonable price. but these decals also created a golden opportunity for unscrupulous sellers. as you mention there is certainly a market for such customized helmets - a market that the stock pro-line models can no longer compete with.

yet, having said this, there is absolutely no excuse for claiming that a helmet is a "game issue" piece of equipment when it clearly isn't. nor does the flimsy excuse that the term "game issue" is simply used to differentiate between stock pro-line helmets and custom game style helmets hold any water - an excuse which, believe it or not, i've heard far too often.

there are many, many talented ebayers that have been putting together custom game style helmets for years - ebayers that have never felt it necessary to call their helmets "game issue" for fear they would be confused with stock pro-line helmets.

there is only one reason to claim a helmet is a "game issue" piece of equipment when it isn't, and one reason only - to unscrupulously attempt to inflate the value of a reproduction.

jayt1234
07-12-2007, 09:19 AM
Tom Brady's chin straps is an Adams labeled as a Riddell...Not To sure why Brady has the lettering upside down, but he continues to do this with his current set up (Riddell sof chin strap)...He did at one time use a legit Ridell with a hard chinstrap for at least a season as well.

mvandor
07-14-2007, 09:40 PM
So, no response from Gridiron Authentics? Very disappointed if Joe intends to leave the many questions over his pricey "game issued" pieces unaddressed. And I say that as a very good repeat customer of his.

mvandor
07-17-2007, 03:23 PM
So, no response from Gridiron Authentics? Very disappointed if Joe intends to leave the many questions over his pricey "game issued" pieces unaddressed. And I say that as a very good repeat customer of his.
So, aeneas, no further response from Joe at Gridiron Authentics to you about the issue?

aeneas01
07-17-2007, 07:48 PM
So, aeneas, no further response from Joe at Gridiron Authentics to you about the issue?

i received an email last week from ga stating that joe was out of town but that he would contact me monday to continue our dialogue - tuesday has come and gone and no word. as such, i will just go ahead and post the exchange we've had so far.....

me:

hello - are you stating that this particular helmet (brett favre auto 11/22/01 game issue tb helmet * bf coa - 260124640857) was issued by the packers to brett favre for game use but never saw action? that this helmet was once the property of the green bay packers, assembled (decals, facemask, etc.) by the packers' equipment manager? thank you very much.

joe:

Sorry for the delay in replying but I was out of town and the others in the office couldn't answer all of your questions. We cannot verify that the Packers Equipment Mgr. himself or the Packers personally prepared this helmet for Brett. There are only two reconditiong and helmet sources to the NFL and our contact acquired this helmet from these connections. We had an Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders and a Marino a while back and each athlete verifiede in person for us that the helmet was in fact an issue they would of worn in the actual game. We do not assemble the helmet or alter it in any way. To further verify the accuracy of this issue, we had sold one of these 'game issues' to someone who we later found out 'beat it up' and sold it as game used. The helmet was unfortunately confirmed as game used by a prominent authenticator who recognized the helmet as a true player issue but unfortunatel;y was duped by this character. None the less, I pass this story on to you to help verify its accuracy/authenticity. Hope this helps and thank you. Joe Gridiron Authentics

me:

i very much appreciate your detailed response but but i'm still not clear... your ebay item description states: "Featured is one of only four Packers 'Throwback' game issue helmets ever released like Brett wore that day." you replied that your contact obtained it from an nfl reconditioner - as such, given your ebay item description, are you saying that the nfl reconditioner "released" this helmet and it's only "one of four" ever released by this particular reconditioner - is this plausible? furher, if it was in fact "released" by a reconditioner, why would that make it a "game issued" helmet let alone a brett favre "game issued" helmet?

i know some dealers like to use the term "game issued" when helmets are dressed with the type of decals teams use on the field (nfl shield, clear warning label, etc.) even though these helmets never had anything to do with the team - i've beem told by some of these dealers that they use this term simply to differentiate these "custom helmets" from the stock riddell pro-line helmets that are readily available rather than using the term for what one might expect - a helmet that was actually issued to a player, for game use, by the team. is this the case with your favre helmet? again, thank you very much for your time joe

joe:

We know of only four helmets that were ever made available like this and as noted in the listing, it is exactly as what Brett wore that day including, custom Packers paint finish, Brett's choice face guard, chinstrap, etc. A team issues a helmet based upon an individual player's requests and needs. This helmet is according to Brett's specs and varies in numerous ways from the typical Riddell Pro-Line Helmet that is passed off as game quality. It is the same 'quality' as an actual game helmet but lacks in many particulars that separates a true game helmet apart from a Pro-Line - like thew Brett Favre helmet featured in this ebay listing. I agree, many dealers have loosely used 'game issued' to describe their 'dressed up' Pro Line helmets. That is not the case with this and to further substantiate the difference. All Pro-Line's are a VSR-4 model however, the model in this listing is a WD-2 - completely different and only available as a custom order from Riddell. In fact, I don'e believe Riddell even makes this model any more. Hope this helps. Joe Gridiron Authentics

me:

i very much appreciate your further attempts at clarification but, unfortunately, i still don't understand how you can in good conscience claim that your item is a "brett favre game issue helmet" as well as a "..rare piece of favre memorabilia and unique piece of game issue equipment." - at best this is very misleading and, at worst, appears to be intentionally misleading in my opinion.

it's easy to play the semantics game when it comes to the term "game issue" but at the end of the day i believe we all know exactly what this term really means - and any attempt to blur the lines of definition only smacks of dishonesty. you mentioned in your email that you had an "...emmitt smith, barry sanders and a marino a while back and each athlete verified in person for us that the helmet was in fact an issue they would have worn in an actual game" - i do not doubt this at all but it does not validate, which you seemed to imply, your use of the term game issue in this case. just because an athlete agrees that a given helmet looks like what he would have been given for game use doesn't make that helmet his "game issue" helmet.

the fact of the matter is you have listed a very nice reproduction that matches favre's game day helmet - but it's still a reproduction. is your helmet a heck of a lot nicer and a heck of a lot more authentic in appearance than a stock pro-line model? of course it is - but, again, that does not make it a favre game issue helmet.

from your responses to my emails it's clear that you are not only a very nice person but also a professional who takes great pride in his business - as such it's no wonder why gridiron authentics enjoys such a wonderful reputation. and because of this, for the life of me, i don't understand why you would chance risking your hard-earned image by inviting doubt over something as transparent as "game issue" claims. further, as a well-respected industry leader, i would also think you would want to separate and distance yourself as far as possible from those easily identifiable charlatans that play these word games.

i noticed that radtke sports recently listed an item on ebay as a "game issue favre helmet" with an item description that was almost identical to yours - but he has since edited his listing to read "game style favre helmet" which i thought was very admirable. while it's true that the helmet he's selling is a customized pro-line and not a customized wd model such as yours, i thought it was nonetheless an important gesture coming from another well-respected memorabila dealer.

anyway joe, i want to thank you again for your patience in taking the time to explain to me why gridirion authentics has chosen to describe the favre helmet as it has - while i don't agree with your business decision i think i at least understand why you felt motivated to do so.

aeneas01
07-17-2007, 08:19 PM
speaking of email exchanges with ebayers that sell game used, game worn or game issued equipment, i've recently had this exchange with ebayer dalcowbill (who is known to sell game used dallas cowboys equipment) regarding a "game used drew pearson helmet" he currently has listed.

for the record, i've stated before on this forum that his goods have always appeared to be authentic and that he struck me as an honest dealer - however i was disappointed some time ago when he listed on ebay a vintage cowboys' suspension helmet, a helmet that i had watched previously sell at another auction house, without including a photo of a severe crack it had sustained. given the many photos he did include of the helmet in his ad, the omission struck me as rather glaring...

me:

hello - are you sure this helmet belonged to drew pearson? it's my understanding that pearson only wore a riddell suspension helmet throughout his career - even in the last game of his career, a 12/83 playoff loss to the rams. even the photo you have included in your ad shows pearson wearing a suspension helmet...

http://cgi.ebay.com/DREW-PEARSON-GAME-USED-GAME-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ160123816381QQihZ006QQcategoryZ868 28QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

dalcowbill:

pretty sure- i had lampson look at it for me- he wouldn't write a letter on it because of the clips- they should be grey. the reason they are not is because when the helmet out of storage the grey clips were all cracked so i replaced them with these clips on the helmet.

me:

that's odd - i've seen many, many game used helmets earn loa's despite having replacement clips. i mean it's pretty common knowledge among collectors that the vintage gray schutt clips become brittle with age and fall apart - as such, it's not uncommon to see modern replacement clips on vintage game used helmets with coas. but as far as your pearson helmet is concerned, he simply didn't wear anything other than a ridddell suspension during his career - here's a photo of him wearing his suspension in the last game he ever played...

dalcowbill:

no respone to email

me:

so you are saying lampson authenticated the helmet itself - agreed or stated that it was a pearson game used helmet, but didn't issue any paper because of the clips?

dalcowbill:

no respone to email

me:

i forgot to add that imo your helmet does appear to be an authentic dallas cowboys' helmet - so i hope you don't think i'm questioning that. also, fwiw, many receivers from that era didn't switch from their suspension helmets to the more modern riddell helmets as they became available because the newer helmets were considerably heavier - and the last thing a fleet-footed receiver wanted was something that could potentially slow him down.

dalcowbill:

no respone to email

mvandor
07-17-2007, 09:26 PM
My compliments on your wording and approach.

The last email to Joe didn't necessarily invite a response, so perhaps he won't reply further. I did email him this thread and invited his reply here, but that was a week or so ago. His replies to you are unfortunately a bit less than direct, they seem to imply that he gets these from a reconditioning company that knocks off a few extras or something, however, I was of the impression decals were added by team equipment staff, not reconditioners, so I'm still confused as to how these helmets come about such as his Brady's. Certainly Joe doesn't seem to claim team origination, so something doesn't add up to me.

Don't know the other seller, but silence in such an exchange is seldom a positive sign.

mvandor
08-20-2007, 10:06 AM
It appears Joe at Gridiron Authentics is carrying on without any adjustment in how he represents his "game issue" helmets. See http://cgi.ebay.com/TOM-BRADY-2001-PATRIOTS-911-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-GA_W0QQitemZ260151337303QQihZ016QQcategoryZ27276QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Same appears true for Radtke:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHAEL-VICK-AUTOGRAPHED-FALCONS-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-LE_W0QQitemZ330157779182QQihZ014QQcategoryZ27276QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It appears money talks louder than this board or their customers.

radtke
08-20-2007, 03:15 PM
It appears Joe at Gridiron Authentics is carrying on without any adjustment in how he represents his "game issue" helmets. See http://cgi.ebay.com/TOM-BRADY-2001-PATRIOTS-911-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-GA_W0QQitemZ260151337303QQihZ016QQcategoryZ27276QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Same appears true for Radtke:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHAEL-VICK-AUTOGRAPHED-FALCONS-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-LE_W0QQitemZ330157779182QQihZ014QQcategoryZ27276QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It appears money talks louder than this board or their customers.

No, it was accidentally listed that way. Andale had it stored that way in its database and we re-listed it on accident without checking. Sorry for the confusion.

mvandor
08-20-2007, 07:23 PM
No, it was accidentally listed that way. Andale had it stored that way in its database and we re-listed it on accident without checking. Sorry for the confusion.
Rick, as a regular customer of yours, I appreciate you caring enough to monitor this forum and respect the feelings of its members - serious collectors. I look forward to your correction of your Andale template.

aeneas01
08-21-2007, 06:31 AM
yeah, mvandor, i noticed the same thing - but it looks like radtke has ended the auction per the mistake. btw, what's the deal - are radtke and ga the same outfit? are they related in any way? i mean what are the odds that they would describe their favre helmets (as i mentioned at the beginning of this thread) in the exact same manner - verbatim..

any comment rick?


radtke sports:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint, usa tribute flag, clear warning decal..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO...QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTOGRAPHED-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-2004-PACKERS_W0QQitemZ230148448117QQihZ013QQcategoryZ27 276QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)

gridiron authentics:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint.... usa tribute flag..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO...QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO-11-22-01-GAME-ISSUE-TB-HELMET-BF-COA_W0QQitemZ260134640449QQihZ016QQcategoryZ27276Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)

mvandor
08-21-2007, 08:49 AM
are radtke and ga the same outfit?
I do not believe that they are related in any way, not even based in the same area of the country as I recall. I suspect one copied the other's content in an effort to expedite the ebay listing process, no more...

radtke
08-21-2007, 12:23 PM
yeah, mvandor, i noticed the same thing - but it looks like radtke has ended the auction per the mistake. btw, what's the deal - are radtke and ga the same outfit? are they related in any way? i mean what are the odds that they would describe their favre helmets (as i mentioned at the beginning of this thread) in the exact same manner - verbatim..

any comment rick?


radtke sports:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint, usa tribute flag, clear warning decal..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO...QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTOGRAPHED-GAME-ISSUE-HELMET-2004-PACKERS_W0QQitemZ230148448117QQihZ013QQcategoryZ27 276QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)

gridiron authentics:

"...many unique game features include: packer's custom pearl-metallic "packer gold" paint.... usa tribute flag..."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRETT-FAVRE-AUTO...QQcmdZViewItem

There is no relation between us. We are two seperate companies. Gridiron copied the listing.

aeneas01
08-21-2007, 08:58 PM
thanks for the reply rick -

have you ever contacted ga and said "stop palgiarizing"? i mean they've been doing this for quite a long time, copying your descriptions...

radtke
08-22-2007, 09:53 PM
thanks for the reply rick -

have you ever contacted ga and said "stop palgiarizing"? i mean they've been doing this for quite a long time, copying your descriptions...

Unfortunately,

It is impossible to police everyone on Ebay. If we could do that, Ebay would be a much better place. Thanks for the heads up.

aeneas01
08-25-2007, 05:20 AM
gridiron authentics not only has a "game issue" favre helmet listed on ebay but now also has a "tom brady 2001 patriots game issue helmet" with a starting price of $985. ga descibes the brady listing as a "...tom brady new england patriots game issue helmet from the 2001 season and specifically the game against the Jets... helmet is extremely rare. it is not a home-made or 'rigged' piece..."

this item description is more than laughable especially given that this offering is exactly what ga says it's not - "a home-made... rigged piece..." the facemask is incorrect, the chinstrap is incorrect and the patriot side decals aren't even close to being positioned correctly - many seasoned ebay helmet reproducers have offered much more accurate brady reproductions in the past without the "game issue" nonsense and the hefty price tag. apparently gridiron authentics feels the 911 memorial decal they've included adds about $800 to the worth of this weak reproduction.

well, after not getting too many (or any?) bites it looks like ga decided that listing its "tom brady 2001 game issue helmet" on ebay with a starting price of $985 wasn't going to pay the rent. so they went ahead and relisted this "extremely rare" gem with a starting price of $10 and no reserve. 11 bids later they finally fetched $318 for the thing...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260151337303&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

mvandor
08-25-2007, 07:50 AM
Off season is generally a bad time to sell NFL stuff on ebay in my experience, good time to buy though. But it's great it went for an appropriate value, perhaps this board is being seen by more people and having more of a positive influence than I previously believed.

Unfortunately Joe hasn't cleaned up his "game issue" descriptions so far as I can tell, nor responded to the thread (I emailed him) so I presume he's decided to ignore GUU and his more knowledgeable customers unlike Rick Radtke.

mvandor
08-25-2007, 08:41 AM
aeneas01, check out http://cgi.ebay.com/Tom-Brady-F-S-Game-Issued-Helmet_W0QQitemZ180152456509QQihZ008QQcategoryZ249 64QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.

Gridiron Authentics actually provided LOA's with the unsigned Brady helmets. Amazing.

They were one of my two fav sellers on ebay (Rick Radtke being the other). I spent thousands with Joe, but this whole "game issue" thing with GA is really hurting my previously held very high opinion of he and his firm. Just not an honest representation.

As to his representations to me that neither he nor his staff added anything to the helmets, that they're sold as he received them, and his comments to you that they were sourced from the reconditioners...

Do reconditioners apply stickers? I thought they just verified safety and repainted the shells?

aeneas01
08-30-2007, 05:34 AM
Unfortunately, It is impossible to police everyone on Ebay. If we could do that, Ebay would be a much better place. Thanks for the heads up.

interesting - i would have thought a business competitor such as ga with similar items as yours and a whopping 14,000 ebay sales might have come to your attention before now....


aeneas01, check out http://cgi.ebay.com/Tom-Brady-F-S-Game-Issued-Helmet_W0QQitemZ180152456509QQihZ008QQcategoryZ249 64QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem.

Gridiron Authentics actually provided LOA's with the unsigned Brady helmets. Amazing.

beautiful...


They were one of my two fav sellers on ebay (Rick Radtke being the other). I spent thousands with Joe, but this whole "game issue" thing with GA is really hurting my previously held very high opinion of he and his firm. Just not an honest representation.

no, it's not an honest representation mvandor - as i've mentioned before, imo there's only one reason to claim a helmet is a "game issue" piece of equipment when it isn't, and one reason only - to intentionally attempt to inflate the value of a reproduction.


As to his representations to me that neither he nor his staff added anything to the helmets, that they're sold as he received them, and his comments to you that they were sourced from the reconditioners...

Do reconditioners apply stickers? I thought they just verified safety and repainted the shells?

first of all, every college and nfl equipment manager i have ever spoken with has told me that team decals are a) purchased by the team and b) applied by the equipment manager, not the reconditioner.

second, i can't imagine that any nfl or college organization would freely allow their reconditioner to sell, distribute, trade or make available to the public their game used helmets that don't pass inspection. and, further, i can't imagine that any nfl or college organization would freely give their reconditioner permission to dress up any other helmets in the reconditioner's possession, using team colors and stock decals, for the purpose of selling them to the public as game issued or game used.

but, for the record, i decided to pose this question to circle systems group, a major reconditioner for college and pro teams and this is the response i received..


----- Original Message -----
From: David Drill ( (davidd@circlesystemgroup.com)davidd@circlesystemg roup.com)

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 8:58 AM
Subject: RE: RECONDITIONING QUESTION

We do not supply the decals when doing helmets for nfl teams. They apply them. Any helmet sent in is their property and we return all of them to the teams.

but, with that said, do rejected game used helmets ever make their way out of a reconditioning room and into the hands of the public? i'm sure it's happened before. is it policy? do reconditioners routinely and above board supply the gridirion authentics of the world with authentic "game issued" helmets of particular teams for the purpose of resale. i don't think so...

mvandor
08-30-2007, 09:50 AM
aeneas, while we're on the GA subject, would you mind looking at pics of my Montana "game issue" helmet from GA? I actually bought it on ebay from the orig buyer, not GA directly, about a year ago. Unlike my other helmets, this one is rough inside and does have leather jaw pads, however, the numbering seems too clean inside, and given our recent discussions on GA, I'd be shocked if this actually was ever a team issued dome. In any event would appreciate your comments.

http://thevandors.com/montana/DSC02009.jpg

Rest of pics here: http://thevandors.com/montana

aeneas01
08-31-2007, 06:59 AM
mvandor - i feel like i'm always giving you bad news...

imo the chances are slim to none that your helmet ever saw the inside of the 49ers lockerroom. for one, i certainly don't trust the source (ga) - further, i feel that if ga thought for a moment they had their hands on an authentic montana helmet, an authentic montana helmet with strong provenance that would pass authentication mustard, i sincerely doubt they would sell it with a letter that minced words by referring to it as a "game issue" lid (notice how ga and the like never use the term "game issued").

the facemask clips are incorrect for that era (89-92), the exterior paint job looks far too new, the warning label appears off (not wide enough) and too new as well and the "sf" decal placement is incorrect. also, the thin transparent border of the "sf" decals on your helmet (if this is what i'm seeing your photos) is inconsistent with the authentic decals used by the 49ers which were cut to color.

also, i'm not sure montana ever wore an nfl shield on his lid while with the niners even though they were introduced before he left the team and even though many of his teammates wore them. i noticed that steve young's helmet was also sans the nfl shield during montana's last year in sf as well...

fwiw, the fact that your helmet is an impregnated yellow shell that was painted gold is a plus given that this was standard practice when it came to the niners and other teams that painted their shells gold (i.e. using a yellow shell as the base). yet, having said this, it's impossible to tell from a photo if your helmet is even painted the same gold as the niners used during that era - you would really need to compare your helmet to an authentic one in person to be certain of this.

but, again imo, i think you have a very nice piece of memorabilia in your montana helmet which i'm sure displays very well. further, if you ever decide to move over to the dark side, i'm sure you could come up with a creative story of provenance, easily earn a loa and sell it as an authentic game issued montana lid. :)

here are some very suspect (imo) game issued / worn montana helmets that have sold at auction in the last few years...

lelands 12/02 - sold for $2700

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2700lelands-1.jpg

lelands 05/03 - sold for $2000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2000lelands.jpg

lelands 12/03 - sold for $1600

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/1600lelands.jpg

ebay 09/07 - ended at $165 without reserve being met

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/165ns1.jpg

closeup of authentic niners decal from that era...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/logo.jpg


a couple of notes - the lids pictured above that sold at lelands on 12/02 (for $2700) and 12/03 (for $1600) are the same lid. if you look closely, it also appears that this lid is an impregnated navy shell painted gold. hmm...

mvandor
08-31-2007, 08:13 AM
Have you catalogued any pics of what you feel is a legit Montana lid by any chance?

I have a great 8x10 closeup of Montana in this type of helmet to compare to, and I see your point on the clips and the sticker placement (too far from the upper front chinstrap snap). The leather jaw pads are visible in the pic and are on my helmet which is a plus - most of the ones in your pic set lack those and some have what appear to be an incorrect facemask, mine appears to be a match. Concur exterior paint color is tough to photo match. On the inside my helmet shows it's been around, outside it looks like it was just reconditioned, it's perfect.

Stickers though, ARE cut to color. As for the NFL shield, I can't find a pic on Getty for the 91-92 season that shows that area. Any photo sources you can suggest other than Getty?

I have serious doubts as well as to whether this traces back anywhere near the 49ers locker room, or if it does, whether it really was assigned to Montana. But if it's a knockoff it's a very good one. Actual clips from 20 years ago may have required replacement, and from my photo check, the 49ers weren't anal about sticker placement, I've noted quite a bit of variance in angle for example in just a few minutes on Getty.

But I do appreciate your analysis, it confirms some aspects and casts doubt on others. Thank you, my friend. Bad news isn't good, but the truth IS the truth.

aeneas01
08-31-2007, 12:36 PM
"Have you catalogued any pics of what you feel is a legit Montana lid by any chance?"

if you mean a photo of one sold at auction, then the answer is no mvandor - frankly i would think an authentic montana helmet with sound provenance would fetch at least $10k-$15k at auction instead of the relatively low $1k-$3k that those i pictured went for. i also believe that these lids were recognized as shaky and therefore sold for such realtively low amounts.

how many authentic montana 49er lids have made it to auction in the last 10 years - not many, if any, imo. and how many authentic montana 49er lids were ever in existence? 4, less? imo an authentic montana 49er lid is an extremely rare item.

also, and fwiw, i don't believe in "game issued" helmets - i think this term is nonsense and has been cultivated by dealers to give the false impression that there are more rare helmets in circulation than actually are. cultivated in order to convince buyers that it's plausible that hall of famer helmets are frequently available.

actually, imo, you realy don't even have to speak to an equipment manager to understand just how silly the notion of 1-2 "game issue" (backup) helmets per player is. let's take ray lewis for example - he wears a riddell vsr4, most likely large, which is the same helmet and size that at least 50% of the ravens wear. now what would make most sense - have 1-2 large vsr4 helmets on hand for each player in case all of their helmets failed at the same time or have 10 or so large vsr4 helmets in stock ready to be decaled for a player when needed?

I have a great 8x10 closeup of Montana in this type of helmet to compare to, and I see your point on the clips and the sticker placement (too far from the upper front chinstrap snap). The leather jaw pads are visible in the pic and are on my helmet which is a plus - most of the ones in your pic set lack those and some have what appear to be an incorrect facemask, mine appears to be a match. Concur exterior paint color is tough to photo match. On the inside my helmet shows it's been around, outside it looks like it was just reconditioned, it's perfect.

the niners switched to the black outlined "sf" letters in 1988 so your helmet is a reproduction of what montana wore from '88-'92 before he went to the chiefs. like the impregnated yellow shell, the leather jaw pads on your helmet are a nice addition. however, your jaw pads appear to be unused and also appear to be smaller than what montana wore - yours look like riddell mediums 3/8" or smaller. interestingly, like montana, brett favre also chose to wear leather jaw pads long after most other players had switched to plastic/vinyl.

"Stickers though, ARE cut to color. As for the NFL shield, I can't find a pic on Getty for the 91-92 season that shows that area. Any photo sources you can suggest other than Getty?"

corbis, wire image, sports illustrated, sportsattic2.com...

"I have serious doubts as well as to whether this traces back anywhere near the 49ers locker room, or if it does, whether it really was assigned to Montana. But if it's a knockoff it's a very good one. Actual clips from 20 years ago may have required replacement, and from my photo check, the 49ers weren't anal about sticker placement, I've noted quite a bit of variance in angle for example in just a few minutes on Getty."

montana wore a very common helmet that is extremely easy to reproduce - all components are readily available today including yellow impregnated schutt pro air shells. i agree that your helmet is a nice reproduction but, i hate to say, it's a reproduction that can be easily pieced together. but, fwiw, the facemask clips montana used during this time aren't rare and you could probably pick some up easily on ebay if you keep your eyes open or contact ebayers that sell facemasks, etc. - the vintage gray schutt facemask clips are rare because they became brittle over time and disintegrated. but the facemask clips that montana used during that era were indestructible and therefore still around.

here are some photos of joe during his final season with the niners - he only played 1 game...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/final2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/final1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/final3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/final4.jpg

mvandor
08-31-2007, 01:29 PM
Interestingly, I see what appears to be the NFL shield in the pic of him blowing on his hand you posted.

I have to give some credit to whomever put this together. If I changed the clips and found slightly larger leather jawpads, I'd be good to go. :)

As always thank you for your detailed look at this. The authentication biz could use you to be sure.

aeneas01
09-06-2007, 02:34 AM
Interestingly, I see what appears to be the NFL shield in the pic of him blowing on his hand you posted.

yeah, that does appear to be an nfl shield! what's interesting about montana's final years with the niners (91/92-92/93) is that it coincided with the introduction of two new helmet decals - the nfl shield and an american flag honoring the gulf war soldiers. but apparently these decals were issued by the league (unlike the other helmet decals which teams obtained directly from the their decal source) and often in quantities too small to keep up with demand. as such, it wasn't uncommon in 1991-1992 to see teams with some players sporting these decals and others that didn't. montana and young are two good examples, two players that can be seen without these decals...

I have to give some credit to whomever put this together. If I changed the clips and found slightly larger leather jawpads, I'd be good to go. :)

you would really be good to go if a) your lid's manufacturing date code jived with the time period in question and b) your lid sported a couple of "special" decals on the inside! as far as the date code is concerned, look at the inside of your lid below one of the earholes - there should be a machine stamped series of seven numbers that may or may not be followed by a letter or two. also look at the top of your helmet for any white decals with info on them - you wll need to remove the padding for this.

let me know what you find... :)

mvandor
09-06-2007, 10:23 AM
There is a number code far below one earhole reading 013210HL - I see no obvious date code stamped by any earhole.

Under the padding is a sticker "warranty voided if removed with the word AIR and a number B JA SN 4705407.

The jaw pads appear to be medium, show some sign of use as does the shell interior. The interior padding looks brand new as does the exterior shell and facemask, and clips.

aeneas01
09-06-2007, 12:27 PM
There is a number code far below one earhole reading 013210HL - I see no obvious date code stamped by any earhole.

Under the padding is a sticker "warranty voided if removed with the word AIR and a number B JA SN 4705407.

The jaw pads appear to be medium, show some sign of use as does the shell interior. The interior padding looks brand new as does the exterior shell and facemask, and clips.

well, unfortunately, it looks like your helmet did't roll off schutt's assembly line until roughly 10 years after montana last wore a niners lid...

your helmet has two dates as follows a) the machine engraved series of numbers and letters appearing below the earhole you mentioned (this date indicates when the shell was molded as well as other molding information) and b) the letters appearing before the serial number on the decal (this date indicates when the shell was actually made into a helmet complete with drill holes, padding, etc. - this date can often be up to 6 months later than the shell molding date). here's the breakdown of these date codes...

shell molding date code (machine engraved series of numbers and letters below the earhole on the inside of the helmet):

- the first number stands for the type of plastic used in the molding process. 0 = polycarbonate which is used for adult helmets. youth helmets are made of a different plastic (abs) and would have a different number in this place. riddell also uses a polycarbonate (kra-lite ll) for their adult helmets and abs for their youth helmets. so yours is an adult lid made of polycarbonate.

- the second number indicates the work shift in which the shell was molded; there are 3 work shifts. so your lid was molded during the first work shift.

- the next three numbers represent the day of the year (julian) the helmet was molded. in your case it was the 321st day of the year which would be november 15th or 16th depending on leap year.

- the last number represents the year the helmet was molded - in your case the "0" indicates the year 2000. the reason we know that the "0" doesn't represent 1990, 1980 or 1970 is because it is followed by the letter "h".

- the first letter, in your case an "h", indicates where the shell was manufactured. the "h" stands for in-house. a "p", for example, would indicate that the shell was molded at an outside source (in the case of a "p" it would mean that it was molded at pulsar plastics). these letters also help in determining what year the last number in the series represents - for example, a "0" followed by a "p" would indicate that the shell date was 1990 given that schutt started in-house molding ("h") in the mid-'90s. it can be confusing.

- and, finally, the second letter indicates the helmet's size; in your case the "L" indicates a large helmet. the second letter can also help in determining what year the final number in the series represents - for example, schutt didn't begin adding the second letter until the late '90s.

- in short, the shell of your helmet was molded of polycarbonate during the first shift of thurday november 16th, 2000 at the schutt factory and is a size large.

manufacturing date code (three letters appearing on the serial number decal):

- the first of the three letters indicates the month the helmet was manufactured (when the shell was actually turned into a complete helmet), a= jan, b = feb, c = mar, etc... the next two letters indicate the year. consequently the letters appearing on your helmet's sn decal (b ja) translate into 2/01 or february 2001. so your shell was manufactured into a complete helmet 4 months after it was molded...

aeneas01
09-06-2007, 12:37 PM
btw, do you think lampson even bothers to look at helmet date codes when he gives them his big thumbs up? i'll tell ya one thing, i would bet a gazillion cannolies that the date code on that wilson which sold as a "game used sayers" lid for $22,000 wouldn't come close to the year sayers actually wore that type of helmet...

mvandor
09-06-2007, 02:03 PM
Well, my bubbles burst on my "game issued" helmets some time ago. The price of my education across several of them (money paid above honest reproduction market value) is several hundred clams easily.

Once again, I very much appreciate your taking the time to address my collection. As I said before, better to know the truth so I don't perpetuate the falsehoods when I go to sell my collection someday.

aeneas01
09-06-2007, 02:58 PM
As I said before, better to know the truth so I don't perpetuate the falsehoods when I go to sell my collection someday.

what you've also said before, which is absolutely correct, is that you have some very, very nice reproductions that you don't see every day; especially as far as their attention to detail is concerned. and while in your estimation you believe that you probably overpaid for these reproductions, take solace in the fact that you didn't drop $1k-$2k per as did the buyers that purchased the above pictured montana lids. and if that's not enough, take even more solace in the fact that you didn't drop $22k for a $50 wilson shell adorned with a $15 set of chicago bears decals!

helmets
03-25-2008, 07:16 PM
aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.

mvandor
03-25-2008, 07:43 PM
aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.
Will be interested to see what aeneas has to say. While Joe at GA insists on playing loose with the term "game issue" to describe some of his custom helmets, I do not see him as someone that would misrepresent an item as "game used" that wasn't. He's had that up for over a year that I'm aware of, but at $18,500 no takers. It also comes with a signed letter from Sanders.

helmets
03-25-2008, 08:34 PM
Yes, I have tracked it for most of the time that it has been listed. I know it comes with the letter, but we all know examples of where the letter doesn't mean much...

aeneas01
03-27-2008, 08:11 AM
aeneas01:

A bit new here, but not new to the hobby. I have a couple questions for you as I have been reading your posts.

GA has what they are selling as a Barry Sanders rookie helmet. Everything to me looks legit, however the royal shell is throwing me for a loop. I was wondering your opinion on this helmet, as I own a helmet that is identical to the GA helmet in every way, and I mean EVERY way. I called Danny J, the Lions EM at the time, and he does not recall any royal shells in the 7 3/8 WD-1 shells, or any model of helmet. I tried to PM you or email you and keep it off of the board, but I don't have your email address.

In addition, thanks for the info on the serial number of the shell molding. I have what I consider to be a Montana gamer. I checked the serial number per your explanation, and although it doesn't have the H or P, the last number is 8 which I assume is '88. The mask and clips are '90.

Let me know what you think.

man, it seems as if ga has been selling that lid forever - as far as my thoughts are concerned, let's just say that i think it has a ton of problems. frankly, i see no evidence that this lid ever belonged to sanders (regardless of the letter) nor am i convinced that it even originated from the lions' lockerroom. as you mentioned, the royal blue shell is a huge problem - so much so that i would rule it out based on that alone. but there's more.....

1. what's up with the facemask? it appears to have been painted blue - those aren't paint transfers appearing on the mask.

2. it's obviously not sanders' rookie helmet that was retired after the 1989 season - the seller does mention something about it being sanders' rookie helmet that was reconditioned and possibly worn during the 1990 season. the reason it couldn't be his retired rookie helmet is because a) the side lion decals didn't have a transparent trim in 1989 and b) the lions didn't use a lions decal to cover the riddell logo on the back of the helmet in 1989 either.

3. from what i can tell the dyno name tape is applied incorrectly (see photos below) - it appears that the lions' equipment manager applied the dyno tape sp that the player's name read from top to bottom; ga's lid has it reversed. btw, it looks like the lions only used the dyno tape from 1986-1991.

4. the warning label doesn't look right to me - compare it with the authentic warning labels pictured below.

5. no all-american shield?

6. i'm not sure i understand the seller's casual mention of 1991 clps....

anyway, as you can probably tell, i'm not very impressed with this helmet - obviously the seller is counting on the letter.


a look at at the lions' 1989 side decal compared to ga's (bottom right):

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp01.jpg


a look at the lions dyno tape placement and warning label - compare these to ga's:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp03.jpg


a look at ga's $18,500 lid compared to one that sold for $3,500 not too long ago:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp02.jpg

Made in Motown
03-27-2008, 09:25 AM
Wow! That logo is just awful. Look at the white outline (rounded in the game pictures, not cut to follow the outline of the Lion) and the extra "wave" in the tail.

mvandor
03-27-2008, 10:38 AM
Seller indicates helmet was in service through both 1989 and 1990 so for photo comparative purposes, we should look at photos close to the time the lid left circulation, late in the 1990 season or even early 1991 - it would seem to me - given the face clip date.

Looking at circa 1990 shots (and seller indicates helmet was in use in 1990) the Lion's symbol DID have a clear outline around it around that time, unlike 1989. See shot 1 below. Unfortunately, Getty has no specific 1990 dated shots that show much. A Nov. 1991 dated shot DOES show the clear outline on the decal. Could the helmet have been retired early 1991, perhaps pre-season, explaining the clips?

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/52286036.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE17322FFBCED78938 4E9C89C783688B46

The rear of Sanders helmet in 90 seemed to lack the NFL shield but bears the bumper decal circa 1990 - shot 2 below.

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/52547412.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE9ACDD40AC5A449A4 4E9C89C783688B46

Aeneas, your own pics show some dymo tape on the left some on the ight, so there were inconsistencies in how it was applied, so I'm not sure we can make a major flag out of that.

Not arguing with anyone, just adding some info to the discussion. Perhaps other photo databases would be more helpful than Getty on this one.

helmets
03-27-2008, 10:52 AM
Aeneas:

I appreciate the feedback. I bought the one that you show for the $3500.00 price. The history is, the seller whom I talked to on the phone, owns a book store. One of his best customers comes in and wants him to list some of his items that have been in storage on ebay. He originally listed listed 6-7 helmets as well as a Walter Peyton and Bubba Smith jersey. They were all listed as game worn. They brought huge prices. I stayed away due to the poor photos. About 4 weeks later, the seller relisted the helmets as not game worn. Again I called him to get the story. The prices were significantly lower. I bought the Sanders and others, as I felt I could not go wrong at the prices. Part of what sold me was the Dymo tape and the numbers. Living in the Detroit area, I have seen many Lions Gamers. In addition, I have been making "custom" helmets since 1995 for collectors, and there features on this helmet that I have not seen on anything but gamers.

When I got the helmet, I was surprised by the features. I then saw the helmet on ebay from GA, and it almost looked like the same helmet. 99% of it was the same. The only differences being the marks on the GA mask, and the orientation of the dymo tape.

The only stickler in my opinion, - as I have the Lions actual decals - with the extra "wave" and the clear boarder - was the royal shell.

I placed a call to Danny J, and he immediately asked me where I got the helmet, etc, and kind of seemed a bit pissed. After about a 10 minute discussion, he said that he "...did not recall any royal shells, but that didn't mean that there weren't any." He wanted to look at the helmet, and I have not taken it up to him yet.

On the helmet, the WD-1 is correct, all of the date codes are correct. The size is correct, mask is correct, date codes of the mask are correct. etc. To me, it is not a rookie helmet, but has the same recon sticker in it that the GA one has. NFL shield came in 1991 on the helmets.

On another note, I bought a Sterling Sharpe helmet from the same seller. I am a Packer fan, and have a couple gamers. Again the features of this helmet and the date codes match up perfectly with a Sharpe gamer. The mask was incorrect. I took the helmet to Red Batty on December 29th and met with him. He stated that he was almost certain that it was Sharpe's helmet. He said prior to '93 when he arrived, the Packers traded their helmets back to Bertran's (sp) and also lost helmets while reconditioning. He said he has tightened things up so no helmets leave.

The meeting with Batty only added a bit of mystery to the Sanders helmet...

helmets
03-27-2008, 10:57 AM
I have been looking for a photo of Sanders with his helmet off - showing the inside and the color of the shell. The only ones I find are from later years. Need those photos from '89-91 or '92

mvandor
03-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Who's Danny J?

Eric
03-27-2008, 11:15 AM
Don't know the year, but is this anything?

http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos6/Sanders,Barry56.jpg

helmets
03-27-2008, 11:35 AM
Who's Danny J?

Danny Jaroshewich was the Lions EM during the 80's. He spent 28 years with the Lions, and then was fired by Matt Millen. I heard he works for the Lions now in the Security Dept at Ford Field.

DrJ
03-27-2008, 12:31 PM
The numerals on back are "clear square" variety, which appears correct for the time period. If you look, it appears that blue paint is exposed under the "2" numeral - how do you get hit marks or scratches under a sticker like that? Just wondering for my future collecting if anyone knows how that could have happened...seems like the silver paint would have been protected under a sticker like that.

aeneas01
03-27-2008, 12:47 PM
I appreciate the feedback. I bought the one that you show for the $3500.00 price.

when you said that you had an identical one i thought you might be the guy that purchased it....

The history is, the seller whom I talked to on the phone, owns a book store. One of his best customers comes in and wants him to list some of his items that have been in storage on ebay. He originally listed listed 6-7 helmets as well as a Walter Peyton and Bubba Smith jersey. They were all listed as game worn. They brought huge prices. I stayed away due to the poor photos. About 4 weeks later, the seller relisted the helmets as not game worn.

i'm not sure that i understand you - you said that "they brought huge prices" and then say that the seller relisted them. do you mean that he originally listed them with "huge" starting prices and they didn't sell?

Again I called him to get the story. The prices were significantly lower. I bought the Sanders and others, as I felt I could not go wrong at the prices. Part of what sold me was the Dymo tape and the numbers. Living in the Detroit area, I have seen many Lions Gamers. In addition, I have been making "custom" helmets since 1995 for collectors, and there features on this helmet that I have not seen on anything but gamers.

When I got the helmet, I was surprised by the features. I then saw the helmet on ebay from GA, and it almost looked like the same helmet. 99% of it was the same. The only differences being the marks on the GA mask, and the orientation of the dymo tape.

those don't appear to be "marks" on the ga lid - it appears that a black or navy facemask was painted blue. as far as ga's lid looking like yours, i agree - as a matter of fact it looks like someone used your lid as a template for the ga lid.

The only stickler in my opinion, - as I have the Lions actual decals - with the extra "wave" and the clear boarder - was the royal shell.

i wasn't suggesting that the lions never used the transparent trimmed decals such as the ones that appear on ga's lid or your lid - they certainly did use these type of decals, before and after the cut-to-ink decals used during sanders' rookie year (which they only used a few seasons). the royal blue shell is a big hurdle imo.

I placed a call to Danny J, and he immediately asked me where I got the helmet, etc, and kind of seemed a bit pissed. After about a 10 minute discussion, he said that he "...did not recall any royal shells, but that didn't mean that there weren't any." He wanted to look at the helmet, and I have not taken it up to him yet.

On the helmet, the WD-1 is correct, all of the date codes are correct. The size is correct, mask is correct, date codes of the mask are correct. etc. To me, it is not a rookie helmet, but has the same recon sticker in it that the GA one has. NFL shield came in 1991 on the helmets.

which helmet are you talking about here - yours or ga's? have you asked ga what the date of their helmet is? what's the date code on your helmet? as far as the nfl shield is concerned, i wasn't referring to the nfl dceal on the exterior of the helmet - i was referring to the all-american reconditioning shield/decal on the interior of the helmet....

On another note, I bought a Sterling Sharpe helmet from the same seller. I am a Packer fan, and have a couple gamers. Again the features of this helmet and the date codes match up perfectly with a Sharpe gamer. The mask was incorrect. I took the helmet to Red Batty on December 29th and met with him. He stated that he was almost certain that it was Sharpe's helmet. He said prior to '93 when he arrived, the Packers traded their helmets back to Bertran's (sp) and also lost helmets while reconditioning. He said he has tightened things up so no helmets leave.

The meeting with Batty only added a bit of mystery to the Sanders helmet...

batty is a great guy and extremely helpful....


here are a few photos of the inside of bs's lid (nothing for 89-90)...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/int.jpg

a few shots of the lions' warning label during that period - not the same as ga....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/warning.jpg

helmets
03-27-2008, 04:38 PM
Great photos.

Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

mvandor
03-27-2008, 05:04 PM
Great photos.

Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

Were the Lions so cheap as to start a prized first round draft pick out with a 5 year old lid???

helmets
03-27-2008, 06:24 PM
It is not a question of cost. It is what the player likes, and what feels comfortable and what fits. Favre wore up until he retired an ancient WD-1 helmet that Riddell has not made in 6-8 years. Brady still wears an XL helmet that came off of the old Max Pro mold, with padding that is at least 6 years old. Brendan Shannahan wears shoulder pads that he wore as a junior that are held together with tape. If you go to Green Bay for training camp, the rookies always have used helmets that have been refurbished. Under the paint, they are all gouged up.

Not defending the helmet, just stating that cost is not the only factor.

aeneas01
03-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Yes, the date code on the helmet is '84, which seems a bit older to me than it should be, however it is only 5 years older than his rookie year. Date on the mask is '92 as is the dates on the clips.

while anything is possible, never used old/new inventory on hand in the equipment room for example, the notion that sanders was issued an '84 lid in '89 is tough to swallow imho. further, given the decals on the helmet, it's even tougher to believe that sanders was sporting an '84 lid into the '90 or even '91 season. wd lids were hugely popular during that era; the lions used them quite a bit. as such, i can't imagine that new wd inventory wasn't readily available to incoming players - especially if you happened to be the team's number 1 pick and that year's heisman trophy winner. but, again, anything is possible such as a royal blue shell - possible, but not likely.

btw did you ever get the date code from ga's lid?

Yes, the helmets sold originally in February, and then at the end of April, I was surprised to see them listed again. The description stated that they were originally sold as Game Used, but after some people contacted him and questioned whether or not they were game used, he relisted them as "not" game used. He started them out at $5 each with no reserve. I did not see the two jerseys relisted, so he must have felt comfortable with the sale on them. He relisted the helmets all at the same time, so a snake in the weeds like myself was not able to bid at the last second on all of them without the aid of some sort of sniper software. They went so cheap the second time around, I wish I would have bought them all, but I waited until the last second to bid.

i think i remember those auctions - do you happen to recall what helmets were listed and who the ebayer was? i want to see if i have them in my photo database. if i remember correctly i contacted the seller because there was something goofy going on with his lids...

John in KY
03-28-2008, 03:08 PM
It is not a question of cost. It is what the player likes, and what feels comfortable and what fits. Favre wore up until he retired an ancient WD-1 helmet that Riddell has not made in 6-8 years. Brady still wears an XL helmet that came off of the old Max Pro mold, with padding that is at least 6 years old. Brendan Shannahan wears shoulder pads that he wore as a junior that are held together with tape. If you go to Green Bay for training camp, the rookies always have used helmets that have been refurbished. Under the paint, they are all gouged up.

Not defending the helmet, just stating that cost is not the only factor.

Just because Riddell didn't have the WD-1 on their website or in their catalog it doesn't mean that they still couldn't assemble one for Favre at any point in time - hell, if Helmet Hut hasn't bought them they probably still have suspensions back in their warehouse. It wouldn't be a stretch for them to have padding for more recent helmetslike the PAC-3, WD-1, and Micro-Fit/M-155 air/liquid pads hanging around.

My question is this - a 1984 WD-1 shell wouldn't have a "modern" Riddell rear snubber, would it? I don't think they added them to the WD-1 and AF-2 until the VSR-1 and VSR-3 had been out for a while. I suppose one could be added, but all I remember from the PAC-3/early WD-1 era were the rear "rolled" pads that didn't have any graphics on them.

helmets
03-28-2008, 05:51 PM
The WD-1's that were produced in the late 80's and early 90's had a removeable rear "modern" bumper. It fit over the square cells of the rear padding. It is longer than the rear bumper of the VSR series helmets as shown on these Sanders helmets. That is how you know that Favre still wears a WD-1 helmet. His bumper is much longer than the VSR helmets, and his bumper decal "PACKERS" does not reach the far ends of the bumper - the same as the Lions bumper decals on these helmets. In the early 2000's Riddell combined the VSR and the WD1 and called it a WD2. It had the rear padding configuration of the VSR and the sides of a WD1. Many people think that Favre wore a WD2, but that simply is not true due to the length of the rear bumpers and the plastic rivets that can be seen holding his rear padding into the helmet.

Yes, Riddell may have some additional padding and could possibly custom build a helmet for a star, but typically, Riddell wants the NFL "Star" players to wear their newest helmet to get younger players to wear that same helmet, ie. Manning with a Revo. Typically a good equipment manager will "squirrel" away helmets and parts that are known to be discontinued. I had read where the Pats EM ordered 500 VSR4 helmets a few years back when Riddell changed the inside padding to the more stiff type from the softer pads.

John in KY
03-31-2008, 12:40 PM
The WD-1's that were produced in the late 80's and early 90's had a removeable rear "modern" bumper. It fit over the square cells of the rear padding. It is longer than the rear bumper of the VSR series helmets as shown on these Sanders helmets. That is how you know that Favre still wears a WD-1 helmet. His bumper is much longer than the VSR helmets, and his bumper decal "PACKERS" does not reach the far ends of the bumper - the same as the Lions bumper decals on these helmets. In the early 2000's Riddell combined the VSR and the WD1 and called it a WD2. It had the rear padding configuration of the VSR and the sides of a WD1. Many people think that Favre wore a WD2, but that simply is not true due to the length of the rear bumpers and the plastic rivets that can be seen holding his rear padding into the helmet.

Yes, Riddell may have some additional padding and could possibly custom build a helmet for a star, but typically, Riddell wants the NFL "Star" players to wear their newest helmet to get younger players to wear that same helmet, ie. Manning with a Revo. Typically a good equipment manager will "squirrel" away helmets and parts that are known to be discontinued. I had read where the Pats EM ordered 500 VSR4 helmets a few years back when Riddell changed the inside padding to the more stiff type from the softer pads.

All true; I was assuming a helmet with an internal date of 1984 would have predated the WD-1 and AF-2 having the longer rear bumper by at least a year or two, but based on your description it would have been easy to add one of the modern bumpers; I was only familiar with the old "rolled-style" add-ons that dated back to the PAC-3 days (the PAC-3 was the helmet of choice in my high school days).

I wasn't aware of the Pats ordering older VSR-4s for the padding; great info. And everyone's heard the story of the Bears being down only one or two unused Wilson helmets for Walter Peyton at the time he retired. Things like that keep an equipment manager on their toes.

I also know Riddell doesn't throw stuff away - I remember circa 1991-92 Riddell put out "throwback" helmets (like a white original Cowboys or a white-horn Rams) for sale at the mall jersey stores that had PAC-3 padding and the early-70s all caps "Riddell" logo on the wildcat sweatband. Of course they also used those USFL-era facemasks on them as well, but they did have the correct clear-covered PAC-3/WD-1 air cells that hadn't been seen for the prior 4-5 years.

Nathan
03-31-2008, 03:31 PM
The numerals on back are "clear square" variety, which appears correct for the time period. If you look, it appears that blue paint is exposed under the "2" numeral - how do you get hit marks or scratches under a sticker like that? Just wondering for my future collecting if anyone knows how that could have happened...seems like the silver paint would have been protected under a sticker like that.

If a helmet is used over an extended time period, it's entirely possible to have something like a decal be taken off and replaced. That it happens to be over an impact mark is usually inconsequential to the equipment staff.

That said, here's what to consider when it comes to impact marks/decal issues.

1) It is possible for huge gouges or deep impact marks to appear in the vicinity of a decal
2) It usually is very difficult to see those appear under where a decal was actually placed, as a thicker decal will displace and absorb some of that impact. There are weird cases; I know LSU has usually used extremely thin decals so they can be replaced every game, so they wouldn't dampen impact
3) If there is a deep impact mark underneath where a thick decal was placed at the time of impact with no corresponding adhesive residue inside of the mark, it would be an amazing occurrance

I'm speaking not as a collector here, but someone who's spent a few years issuing, re-collecting, repairing, and fixing football equipment for teams I've coached

helmets
03-31-2008, 08:38 PM
I also know Riddell doesn't throw stuff away - I remember circa 1991-92 Riddell put out "throwback" helmets (like a white original Cowboys or a white-horn Rams) for sale at the mall jersey stores that had PAC-3 padding and the early-70s all caps "Riddell" logo on the wildcat sweatband. Of course they also used those USFL-era facemasks on them as well, but they did have the correct clear-covered PAC-3/WD-1 air cells that hadn't been seen for the prior 4-5 years.

Yes, I have a couple of the older throwbacks that Riddell offered with the PAC3 padding - Giants 75 style and a Houston Oilers. Both have the gaudy thick USFL style masks on them. Both are in the old throwback boxes that Riddell sold them in. You don't see many like that floating around any longer.