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RKGIBSON
05-06-2007, 11:39 AM
In the last AMI auction I won 3 jerseys, Ray Lewis, Mike Rozier and Dameyune Craig. Of those the Ray Lewis is a great piece that really make my collection better. I was able to inspect the jersey and photo match it before the auction. It was probably the easiest jersey I have ever photo matched. It was definately use in at least 5 games and I believe 6. He was wearing a different jersey vs the Bronco's 10/26/03. I cannot definately say vs the Jags 11/2/03 but it is not he same as the Bronco jersey. The following games he has this jersey on: 11/16 vs Dolphins, 11-23 vs Seahawks, 11/30 vs 49ers, 12/7 vs Bengals and 1/3/04 vs Titans. The marks on the shoulder occured in the Seahawk game and are easy to see. The hole in the LH sleeve occured in the Titans game.

The Rozier was photo matched to the 49er game 10/14/90 and the Bucs 12/2/90. I collect Heisman winners.

The Craig has a Panther letter was photo matched easy too, by two repairs on the LH chest, Jags 8/4/00 and Ravens 8/18/00 preseason. This is not a significate jersey but, I met Craig a Auburn while taking my son to football camp. I'm a big Aubun fan and he was a good kid, and most of all I like it.

Also earlier in the month I won the Jim Kelly with the team letter on Ebay. I really like this jersey also. I have not been able to photo match this jersey. I have only found one picture on Getty and one on is web site of his rookie season. Still looking.

I also got the 2 Florida jerseys, Fred Taylor and Mike Peterson from Grey Flannel. I matched the Taylor to the Arkansas game 10/4/97. It had shoulder repairs then. These jersey came from Greg Goslin, Eq. manager.
Anyone wants picture of these jerseys let me know.

Has anyone else recently got any football items?

Roger

indyred
05-06-2007, 03:19 PM
WOW! That Ray Lewis jersey is nice. Great photo matches on it.

mchmaj
05-06-2007, 04:04 PM
can i see more pictures of bills kelly jersey
i am bills expert and i dont see ur kelly anywhere else before beacuse of the numbers font are different .....
pictures of tag, front n back if possible
thanks :)

CollectGU
05-06-2007, 05:04 PM
Roger,

Congrats on the Lewis. That is the nicest I have seen in the hobby. I think that this speaks volumes about the kind of merchandise that AMI is offering in their auctions. They are offering high quality items from good sources, and in my opinion don't even need Lou to authenticate much of it as it speaks for itself. I was bidding on the Kelly as well. I believe that the unique repair style conformed by the equipment manager makes adds to the provenance. If I were you, I would send it to the equipment manager and see if he would write a letter on it explaining how the repairs were done back then.

Regards,
Dave

RKGIBSON
05-06-2007, 07:41 PM
Thanks, I think this is a great jersey also, that is why I wanted everyone to see it. I know there are other great jerseys out there, I would like to see some.

I have only seen one Lewis I knew was real for sale. It sold in NFL auctions a couple of years ago, over 10K, a black alternate jersey.

As for AMI, I have always had a good relationship. I have dealt with them since the first auction. I have bought 3 things that I was unhappy with and Victor took them back. That is why he lets me examine the items if I need to before bidding.

Attached are pictures of the Kelly. The repairs were done at Varas Dry Cleaners who laundered and repaired the Bills jerseys in that time period, 1986. 86-87 were the only Sand-Knit years for the Bills in Kelly's career, I believe. I do see plenty of picures with the font type, just cannot match it yet. I do have trouble matching the early 90's back items. Just not enough pictures avaliable.

Roger

scottanservitz
05-06-2007, 09:02 PM
Roger,
First of all, it is really great to see somebody into NFL gamers as much as I am. I followed both of your jerseys throughout the auctions and was out of the picture early on both. But I think they are both just super examples as I too look to photo match. I found the Lewis pics, but was also stumped on the Kelly due to insufficient photos available. You really got 2 beauties. I recently picked up a very nice 2004 Marshall Faulk from Ron at California Sports Investments. It has the WETRAK labels on the neck that really helped me in choosing the jersey. I also did my homework before I bought it and realized most Faulk gamers are hemmed. Also the year label isn't indicative of the year of use. I haven't been able to find a photo match yet due to I can't find pics of 5 of the Rams home games. It also has the 10 year anniversary patch which is really sweet. I also have a 2002 Corey Dillon that I photo matched to games against the Tennessee Titans and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I posted a thread awhile back on it. I was so excited when I matched it! I agree with you that AMI has really been getting excellent examples of NFL jerseys that have good provenance and or photo matches. I like the added assurance of the pics as we all know the almighty LOA isn't worth a whole heck of a lot anymore unless it comes from the team or another reputable source. Anyways, I posted my Faulk to add to the post. Enjoy those jerseys!

Scott

brookecarter
05-06-2007, 09:35 PM
If you have interest in selling the Lewis for a profit please contact me at acarter@sc.rr.com. Thanks, Brooke

mchmaj
05-06-2007, 10:13 PM
what letter did u have with kelly jersey ???
because bills NEVER wear this numbers font ....
i have bills 35th anniversary book and theres no match at all I checked all numbers of 1 or 2s from 1986 to 1988ish beacuse bills started wearing champion in 88-89 ? and before they worn champion , the sand knit made bills jerseys in FISHNET styles.
i think u might be burned for the KELLY jersey HOWEVER your other jerseys looks good with game wears on the shoulders and all
thanks :)
marcus

mchmaj
05-06-2007, 10:21 PM
i did some quick research for you
first of all kelly's first season is 1986 and i have photo from 1986 of him wearing sand knit with fishnet body , and the 1987 different numbers font, assuming champion took over in 1987 and bills worn fishnet also ... champion supplied bills until 1997.

what i am guessing someone added #12 on sand knit jersey that IS from late 70s to early 80s as kelly never worn this style BUT fishnet only....

marcus

RKGIBSON
05-06-2007, 10:31 PM
Scott,

I saw the Faulk you have on his web site. Ron seems to have good stuff. I have not bought from him. I live in SE Missouri, so I am a Rams fan. I have the Faulk jersey were he broke Walter Peyton and Jim Browns TD records. I feel it is one of the most significate jerseys in my collection. I have several other Rams also. I think the We Trac, Prova now, is the best provenace in the business. The game detail on the web site, and certificate, and the tagging system they use on the jersey is better than anyone, period. My Faulk was used in Game 12 vs the Vikings, 11/30/2003. Photo's attached.

I have a Dillon as well. Mine was used 12/22/2002, vs the Saints. I have a great photo match on it also.

Scott, Thanks for the photos, its great HOF'er jersey.

Brooke, I have no interest in selling it. I usually wait till they are not worth what I had to pay for them.;)

Roger

RKGIBSON
05-06-2007, 10:42 PM
Marcus,

The getty photo's that you have posted are not from the 86 season. I know that is what comes up on Getty when you put in 1986. If you review other years you will see they are from later years. I believe the post date of some of the photo's are later. I believe on JimKelly.com there was a rookie photo of Jim.

Roger

mchmaj
05-07-2007, 11:37 AM
you still didnt support ur case with kelly jersey
i checked jimkelly.com, theres no match !
following 1986 season kelly still wear different numbers fonts, i checked getty for 1986 and theres few different pictures, if u see jan 1986 on bottom means from different year BUT if u see OCT or SEPT 1986 means they are FROM 1986 you understand ??
i know what i am talking about ....ITS OK if u got burned I DID got burned before ......
NONE of NFL even worn this thin numbers fonts at all ...
the picture i posted of kelly and bengals ,it was the BILLS against the bengals, it was FROM sept 14,1986 begnals won 36 to 33 OT kelly threw 13 for 22 for 228 yards, it was at the riverfront stadium 52,714 fans went
what more proof do u need ???
am more than happy to give u some more proofs
marcus

mchmaj
05-07-2007, 11:47 AM
for the picture jim kelly in action against the browns, its from 1987 and YES champion started supplied the uniform in 1987 and went on until late 90s
it was at Cleveland stadium, November 15 ,1987 browns won 27-21
so i only found 1986 bills were wearing FISHNET ...
YES kelly worn 2 different facemasks seemly home and away games.....
found other pcitures against the bucs nov 2, 1986 bucs won 34-28, bills worn fishnet ....
once again, if any of you guys need help with BILLS jerseys on ebay or house auction, PLS post on thsi forum and i will help RIGHT AWAY
thanks
marcus

RKGIBSON
05-07-2007, 06:50 PM
Marcus,

This will be my last response to you. If you have a 86 Topps Football card set, there are 2 players Smith and Haslett wearing the skinny block font and heavy mesh jerseys like my Kelly.

I have not see the away jerseys with the skinny font. I have not seen the open mesh jerseys with the skinny font.

The head trainer at the Bill say that this jersey was a one year, 1986. I consulted with an aquaintance that has the best vintage Bill's collection to my knowledge, he says it is authentic and consistent with some of his 86 jerseys. Scott Lazzaro says its is real, see attached letter. I know you say your an expert but you are wrong here. I am happy with this jersey and really could care less what you think. I doubt that you have ever had your hand on one or more 86 Bill's jersey to form a real opinion, but you do have a picture book. I hope you read better than you write.

otismalibu
05-07-2007, 06:57 PM
Is this the same style numbering?

http://cgi.ebay.com/86-TOPPS-BRUCE-SMITH-RC-BILLS_W0QQitemZ300094388823QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2809 5QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Eric
05-07-2007, 07:17 PM
What do you think of this from 8-19-86. The sleeves look like a thinner font, but the front numbers look too thick

http://images.wireimage.com/images/tnm/9146654.jpg?Width=126&Height=170

mchmaj
05-07-2007, 07:45 PM
Is this the same style numbering?

http://cgi.ebay.com/86-TOPPS-BRUCE-SMITH-RC-BILLS_W0QQitemZ300094388823QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2809 5QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
otis, since u showed the card, seem the match of the numbers font, therefore its from 1985 season
i dont see JIM KELLY name on BILLS roster in 1985
dont TRUST nor BELIEVE all the way with typing COAs
read or write but i got eyes that can READ the jerseys !!!!!
marcus

mchmaj
05-07-2007, 08:27 PM
i did tried to look for that font in bills 35th anniv book and bills history website and dont see it anywhere
but why bruce smith worn that style showed up on topps 86 card ???
any more pix of that font style pls post it here
thanks :)

Eric
05-07-2007, 08:40 PM
If you have a 86 Topps Football card set, there are 2 players Smith and Haslett wearing the skinny block font and heavy mesh jerseys like my Kelly.


Is this the card you're talking about. It's a 1986- wouldn't the photo be taken in 1985?

5121

mchmaj
05-07-2007, 08:52 PM
Is this the card you're talking about. It's a 1986- wouldn't the photo be taken in 1985?

5121
yes u are correct it was taken in 1985 and print for TOPPS 1996
BUT something about the numbers #12 font still doesnt match the #55 from the topps '86

beantown
05-07-2007, 09:22 PM
Jim Kelly from October 14, 1986....

beantown
05-07-2007, 09:26 PM
More photos from 1986...

beantown
05-07-2007, 09:31 PM
Other photos circa. 1986/1987...

kingjammy24
05-07-2007, 10:48 PM
more pics from '86. the pic of smith with his jersey untucked is a still from a video of the 1986 training camp.

maybe i'm wrong but isn't '86 the last year that they wore the blue facemasks? if so, then wouldn't any pic of kelly with a blue facemask necessarily be only from '86?

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8205/billsim9.jpg
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2122/bills2an1.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2094/bills3yv4.jpg

rudy.

josports
05-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Everyone, I think you are looking at the width of the numbers when you should look at the style of the numbers. The style of the numbers are completely different than the pictures supplied. What you should do is try and match the one and two to any Bills players numbers from those couple years, not just Kelly pictures. Number slants and the block spacing within the numeral two.

RKGIBSON
05-08-2007, 07:28 AM
I believe the photo of Kelly on the 87 Pro Fooball Year Book, posted by Chris, is like the font on my jersey. I also like the 8/19/86 picture posted by Eric. I do agree that matching the font style does not have to be on Kelly only. Thanks for the effort, it is appreciated.

Roger

Eric
05-08-2007, 11:55 AM
Dumb question-

How do we know that letter from the Bills goes with that jersey?

Perhaps it's a cynical view but:

Is it possible that the letter went with a jersey that was described in the letter- a Kelly rookie, but someone has since put it with a jersey with an unusual font?
I realize that would hurt the provenance of the first jersey in my example, but it would help a jersey with an unusual font.

Or, is it possible that a charity jersey from the team is not exactly what they thought it is and that it's an honest mistake? Teams don't always know the things that game used collectors would. Any idea when this was auctioned off? Seems like it was a long time ago because there's no website address on the letter.
Eric
Just my opinion, but i don't feel that we have quite seem a photo style match for a Buffalo Bills player on a "1" or a "2" on the front of back.

Eric

mchmaj
05-08-2007, 11:56 AM
I believe the photo of Kelly on the 87 Pro Fooball Year Book, posted by Chris, is like the font on my jersey. I also like the 8/19/86 picture posted by Eric. I do agree that matching the font style does not have to be on Kelly only. Thanks for the effort, it is appreciated.

Roger
u are saying the photo on the 87 pro football year book is like the font on ur jersey ?? can u read ?? did u see the linemen next to kelly the 2s does NOT MATCH UR kelly , sorry to say this , its ok to make mistake sometime.
now everyone is saying we should not focus on kelly to find the numbers match. well i only can find kelly wearing this style big block 12s in 1986 beacuse in 1987 the bills worn different numbers font as they worn champion style numbers. And in 1985 kelly was playing for houston USFL team ...
marcus

indyred
05-08-2007, 12:03 PM
Another good thing to check would be the Sports Illustrated Bills team video from 1987 (it would cover the 1986 season) they put one out for each team back in mid 80's to mid 90's. I've seen a few other teams and they show highlights from almost every game that season and recap the season. Usually can find them on video searches for teams on ebay for a few bucks.

kingjammy24
05-08-2007, 02:28 PM
this may help in dating the photos:

"In 1986, the Bills added the initials “PJM” to the front of their helmets above the facemask in memory of long-time team executive Patrick McGroeder, who passed away in February of that year."

the first 2 photos that marcus posted show kelly wearing a helmet, with blue facemask, and "pjm" sticker above the facemask. hence, they necessarily must be from 1986.

rudy.

kingjammy24
05-08-2007, 05:42 PM
re: the haslett card
it doesn't have the "pjm" sticker above the facemask. either haslett chose not to wear the memorial or the photo is not from 1986. mcgroeder passed away in february of 1986 so it stands to reason that the memorial was worn from the start of the season.

i think it seems that if it's a blue facemask and has a "pjm" sticker then the photo is from 1986 only. 1985 wouldn't have the "pjm" sticker and 1987 wouldn't have a blue facemask.

there a couple of other things i noticed.

1) the neckline. roger, your kelly has a perfectly circular neck whereas game photos that we know are from 1986 seem to show a definite v-neck.

2) one of the keys, as josports mentioned, is the top or "head" of the "1". photos show a 1 with a blunt, wide top and short nose. roger, your jersey has a narrow-top "1" with a long nose. you indicate that you feel that the photo on the 1987 Pro Football Yearbook is like yours but if you compare the top of the "1"s, you can clearly see that the one in the photo is the same blunt-top/short-nose as seen in other photos.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6025/bills2ll6.jpg

i wonder if we're getting into the mess of trying to prove that something wasn't worn when it should be the opposite. roger, in light of everything,
what was it that caused you to initially view the jersey favorably? was there any photo evidence to support the number fonts or neckline?

rudy.

G1X
05-09-2007, 12:09 AM
Gentleman,

I've tried to avoid commenting in this discussion as I prefer not entering into a debate about a jersey without examining it in person and when it is not any of my business. However, at this point, I feel obligated to comment in an attempt to be helpful on this particular jersey and to clarify a couple of issues brought up in this thread.

Rudy beat me to the punch regarding The Sporting News cover photo not appearing to match Mr. Gibson's Jim Kelly jersey with regard to the font style of the #1 and the difference in the neckline. I agree 100% with Rudy's assessment. Also, I can't tell from the magazine cover photo, but are those "handwarmer" pockets or just a shadow? (Can someone who has the actual magazine please comment.)

One clarification with regards to Rudy's comments about the Jim Haslett card. It is a 1986 card, so the photo is from 1985 or earlier, not 1986. Also keep in mind that Haslett's last season in Buffalo was 1985.

I agree in general with Marcus, but with regards to the 1987 season, please note that the Bills would "mix-and-match" in that some players can be seen wearing the Sand Knit fishnets (port hole mesh) while others wore the normal-style mesh Champion jerseys in the same game. See Getty image #73428283 from the Bills-Eagles game of 12/27/87 where Kelly is in a Sand Knit jersey while the lineman pictured is wearing a Champion jersey (difference in style of the number font on Champion jerseys of that era are quite distinctive from other manufacturers). Making things even more interesting, check out the numerous Bills-Raiders game photos from three weeks earlier where Kelly is in a Champion and most of the other players are in the fishnet Sand Knit jerseys!

Back to Mr. Gibson's Jim Kelly jersey. The combination of the following four issues seems unique and somewhat odd for a circa 1986 Sand Knit Bills jersey:
1. Number font appears too thin.
2. Font style does not appear to be exactly correct.
3. Rounded neck is unusual for Bills jerseys of that era.
4. Sand Knit tagging seems to be post-1986. When MacGregor took over Sand Knit in 1984, the tagging slowly evolved over the next several years. MacGregor wording was added to the bottom tag in small print by the mid-1980s and was later added to the top tag as well. By 1989, they went to the "crown" design on the bottom tag. Of the exemplars in my collection, I do not have a jersey prior to 1987 that has the MacGregor wording on both tags (such as the style on Mr. Gibson's jersey). Not to say that it wasn't included on both tags by 1986 - and collectors out there might have such jerseys - but I would need evidence to alleviate that concern if it were my jersey.

As we all know, there are exceptions to the rule with a prime example being John Elway wearing a Champion at one point in the mid-1980s while the rest of the Broncos sported Russell jerseys. However, the difference is that the Elway Champion jersey can be verified by photographic evidence. No one has presented a photograph or video reference to substantiate the Bills wearing the unusal style of Mr. Gibson's Jim Kelly jersey.

This is all just food for thought in an attempt to be helpful in pointing out some peculiarities about Mr. Gibson's Jim Kelly jersey and the Bills jerseys in general during this era, and to clarify several side issues brought up in this thread. I am by no means stating an opinion on this jersey one way or the other (other to say that it is unusual) nor am I questioning anyone's integrity, opinions, knowledge, etc., etc., etc. . .

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

tboshearz
08-11-2009, 11:52 AM
In the last AMI auction I won 3 jerseys, Ray Lewis, Mike Rozier and Dameyune Craig. Of those the Ray Lewis is a great piece that really make my collection better. I was able to inspect the jersey and photo match it before the auction. It was probably the easiest jersey I have ever photo matched. It was definately use in at least 5 games and I believe 6. He was wearing a different jersey vs the Bronco's 10/26/03. I cannot definately say vs the Jags 11/2/03 but it is not he same as the Bronco jersey. The following games he has this jersey on: 11/16 vs Dolphins, 11-23 vs Seahawks, 11/30 vs 49ers, 12/7 vs Bengals and 1/3/04 vs Titans. The marks on the shoulder occured in the Seahawk game and are easy to see. The hole in the LH sleeve occured in the Titans game.

The Rozier was photo matched to the 49er game 10/14/90 and the Bucs 12/2/90. I collect Heisman winners.

The Craig has a Panther letter was photo matched easy too, by two repairs on the LH chest, Jags 8/4/00 and Ravens 8/18/00 preseason. This is not a significate jersey but, I met Craig a Auburn while taking my son to football camp. I'm a big Aubun fan and he was a good kid, and most of all I like it.

Also earlier in the month I won the Jim Kelly with the team letter on Ebay. I really like this jersey also. I have not been able to photo match this jersey. I have only found one picture on Getty and one on is web site of his rookie season. Still looking.

I also got the 2 Florida jerseys, Fred Taylor and Mike Peterson from Grey Flannel. I matched the Taylor to the Arkansas game 10/4/97. It had shoulder repairs then. These jersey came from Greg Goslin, Eq. manager.
Anyone wants picture of these jerseys let me know.

Has anyone else recently got any football items?

Roger

Just wanted to add that i'm lovin the Ray Lewis jersey... actually looking for one similar myself currently. Seeing this one gives me even more motivation to look harder!

spartanservitto
07-20-2010, 03:14 PM
Im just curious do does the buyer RKGIBSON still have that Ray Lewis jersey, Im wondering if he has kept it or sold. Its one of the most amazing jerseys I have ever seen.

-Tony

ivo610
07-31-2010, 07:41 PM
Im just curious do does the buyer RKGIBSON still have that Ray Lewis jersey, Im wondering if he has kept it or sold. Its one of the most amazing jerseys I have ever seen.

-Tony

He sold it.

slats7
05-28-2011, 10:08 AM
Another good photo of Kelly in 1986, in case anyone needs it.

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2135/pam974.jpg