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Eric
03-30-2007, 11:26 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen we are truly blessed at this time. The chance to look at not one but two extremely rare jerseys authenticated by the same person, for sale at the same time.

Behold 2 1994 Throwback John Elway Game Worn white Jerseys.

Notes
One is a size 46, one is a size 48
Lampson gives the one in Vintage Authentics 0 points for provenance rarity, so maybe there are more out there!!!

Vintage Authentics
Road white Wilson Denver Broncos throwback style jersey used by Hall of Fame QB John Elway during the NFL's 75th Anniversary season of 1994. The gamer features the ever-popular 75th Anniversary patch in correct position on upper left chest properly zigzag affixed. Single color sleeve numerals and Wilson "W" (left sleeve) in correct white while body numerals and NOB in proper 2-color font sewn on. The sleeve cuffs are ribbed as worn by Elway on TBC jerseys in 1994. Overall the game use evidence is light apropos single game and leads to a final authentic grade of 6.5.

http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=81419365&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=81766075

American Memorabilia
This size "48" Wilson throwback jersey was worn by the Hall of Fame quarterback during the 1994 season. Light quarterback wear, as would be expected from a style used for only a few games, is evident on this timeless gamer. Orange and blue sleeve ends and an orange V-neck accentuate the white mesh body. All of the numerals, which have puckered noticeably, are sewn on in two-color tackle twill. An NFL 75th Anniversary patch is affixed on the left breast. Diamond-shaped inserts are built into the underarms, and a strip of stretch spandex is applied to the sides. "ELWAY" is sewn to a nameplate on the verso. A Wilson tag appears in the tail with a suspended flag designator. Elway signed ("9") the verso numeral in silver paint pen.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956

What my friends are the odds?
Eric

EndzoneSports
03-30-2007, 01:07 PM
As detailed in an article on our website (see "Unique" Elway Jerseys Abound (5/8/05)" at http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm)), Lampson had "authenticated" (for lack of a better term) at least two (unique as identified by differing autos) if not 3 of this exact same style of Elway jersey for American Memorabilia's auctions between 2002 and 2005. As these were all sized 48, the appearance of the one sized at 46 would for sure make for at least 3 "unique" specimens and possibly as many as 5. To account for up to five, this would presume that the unautographed jersey in 2002 was not subsequently autographed and then re-sold in 2004 or '05 and that the current unautographed size 48 is again not the same one previously offered. To Lou's VA's credit, they at least got the description down right, noting that this was for "single game use", whereas AMIs description noted that this style was "used for only a few games". The ONLY game in which this style was worn by the Broncos was on 9/26/94 at Buffalo.

http://endzone.pscoggin.com/Graphics/news/AMIElway.jpg

Also noted in the above referenced article is that Grey Flannel has seperately authenticated three different jerseys of this style in sizes 44, 46 and 48. Additionally, the Pro Football Hall of Fame also lays claim to having this jersey within their collection, it having been donated to them by the team/player. HOF Rep Jason Aikens confirmed that their jersey is also the white, road jersey in a size 44.

Regards,

Eric
03-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Patrick-

Congratulations. You beat the authenticator.
Eric

both-teams-played-hard
03-30-2007, 03:47 PM
What my friends are the odds?

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4411/aslotmachinegj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

EndzoneSports
04-01-2007, 02:55 PM
As a follow-up on this topic, after reviewing graphics of the two listings, I would speculate that the jersey currently at auction by American Memorabilia (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=35956) is the same one that was sold in their 4/7/2005 auction (note autograph on back #7)

http://pscoggin.com/Endzone/Graphics/temp/2005AMI.jpg
2005 (above) and 2007 (below) AMI auction listings
http://pscoggin.com/Endzone/Graphics/temp/2007AMI.jpg

From Lampon, this would total at least four of this single-game style jersey that he has "authenticated": 3 different in size 48 (2002 - no auto, light QB wear, 2004 black auto, awesome QB wear; 2005/'07 silver auto, lightly used) and now a fourth in a 46 currently offered by Vintage Auth.

Regards,

Eric
04-01-2007, 06:10 PM
Patrick provided additional valuable info on the old forum on this very topic.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1111851849/last-1111949488/94+Throwback+Elway+Jerseys+LOA'd+by+Lampson

lund6771
04-01-2007, 09:50 PM
this eally shows how stupid Lampson is...he also authenticated a bunch of Brett Favre throwbacks as well that was worn on Halloween night against the Bears...Lampson would probably say that it's very common for a star player to change jerseys after every play...I can't wait to walk into the post office someday and see a wanted poster of this idiot

EndzoneSports
04-02-2007, 09:08 AM
As we have recently received a number of contacts regarding the 1994 Elway “Thowback” jerseys, I thought it would be best to recap the entire history here.


In Nov 1998, Endzone Sports Charities (ESC) procures a size 48 white, road 1994 “Thowback” jersey authenticated by Grey Flannel (LOA # R.V. 324E, 2/9/1998), presumed to be the authentic jersey worn by QB John Elway on Sep 26. ‘94 at Buffalo—the only game where this style of jersey was worn by the Broncos. ESC jersey subsequently sold in good faith, as we had since procured another sample for our collection.
An October 2000 article in the Denver Rocky Mountain News highlighted several pieces of Broncos memorabilia that were a part of the HOF's collection. One of the items noted was, "John Elway's complete Throwback uniform from the 1994 season." On Aug 27, 2001 Jason Aikens of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, confirmed via e-mail that, “Our Elway throwbacks jersey is white and size 44”, thus initially raising speculation.
ESC contacted Grey Flannel (GF) on 4/28/01 when they offered a 2nd jersey of the same style (in size 44) as Lot #1130 in their 2001 Spring Training auction. The auction closed at $9,300 (including 15% buy. prem.).
Subsequently, in June ’01, we were contacted by another collector who had yet a 3rd Grey Flannel jersey, this one a size 46 (LOA # M.N. 949B, 7/10/1995). On 9/3/01, Andy Imperato of GF was advised of the apparent existence of 4 jerseys—three authenticated/sold by GF, and one at the Pro Football Hall of Fame
In Aug 2002, American Memorabilia (AMI) offers one of this style jersey (size 48, unautographed, described as showing, “light QB wear” by authenticator Lou Lampson). The auction closes on 9/2/02, selling at $4,637, including 15% buy. prem.
In Oct 2004, AMI offers the 2nd Elway jersey of this style (size 48, autographed/pers (To Tom) in black, described as showing, “Awesome quarterback wear--check out the armpits in particular. There's heavy pilling…” by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic). The auction closed on 4/7/05, selling at $6,335, including 15% buy. prem. (See http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=10169 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=10169)). Contacting after the appearance of their 2nd jersey of this style was offered, AMI rep stated that, “we have to go by our authenticator’s opinion”.
In May 2005, ESC posts an article at its web site entitled, “Unique” Elway Jerseys Abound (see http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm)) speculating that “…at least some of these jerseys may have originated from a lot that was created though a business partnership. In 1995 a Denver-area memorabilia dealer was contacted about purchasing the remaining stock of unused Wilson Throwback jersey blanks. The dealer acquired these jersey blanks—the same exact blanks as those provided to the team—and had the entire lot made up as Elway jerseys with appropriate numbers and nameplates. The dealer entered into an agreement with John Elway whereas, in exchange for his autograph on a number of the jerseys, which the dealer would retain for sale, John would be given a quantity in payment for his services, to do with as he wished. It is suspected that these likely were given away as gifts, donated for charitable functions and the like, with no way of telling exactly how many of these may now be circulating accompanied by "game worn" credentials.”
In Sep 2005, offers the 3rd Elway jersey of this style (size 48, autographed in silver, described as a, “lightly-used garment” by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic). The auction closed on 10/21/04, selling at $2,221, including 15% buy. Prem. (See http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=13525 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=13525)).
It would appear that this same jersey was consigned for AMI’s auction ending 4/26/07 (see lot # 30 at http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956)) and is described by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic, as exhibiting “Light quarterback wear, as would be expected from a style used for only a few games” (sic)
Also, in March 2007, Vintage Authentics offered a similarly styled jersey, this time in a size 46 and also authenticated by Lampson (see http://pics1.edeal.com/images/p2/wl/vintageauth/docs/elway94gujerslou6-50001.jpg (http://pics1.edeal.com/images/p2/wl/vintageauth/docs/elway94gujerslou6-50001.jpg)) who described the evidence of use for this jersey as “light apropos single game” (See http://vintageauthentics.at.truition... unbr=81766075 (http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=81419365&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=81766075))
Regards,

CollectGU
04-02-2007, 11:02 AM
FYI, I contacted AMI and offered them all the information posted, and theyhave agreed to pull this item from the current auction.

Regards,
Dave

Eric
04-02-2007, 11:24 AM
Dave

Thanks for following up on this and for giving us the info. What is more baffling is how mr lampson can keep writing letters on these jerseys if they were only used in 1 game.

I wonder what will happen to the one in vintage authentics...

EndzoneSports
04-02-2007, 05:15 PM
Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires.

Regards,

lund6771
04-02-2007, 06:03 PM
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...unfortunately, even though I hate to admit it, if something really sweet came along I'd probably go after it

everyone makes mistakes once in a while but this is a joke...the auction houses know exactly what's going on...they must have some great connections because 95% of their auctions contain the same garbage as the last one...and their next auction will continue the trend and so on...

by running an honest & ethical business is what will keep you around...I've seen MANY dealers come and go...at first, a lot of them ran a great gig, but unfortunately greed took over...I think that's the problem with today's auctions...GREED!!!!!...I believe that Meigray, without any comparison, runs the best customer-oriented business that I have seen in my 19 years of experience...100% guarentees, they take the time to fully inspect a product, and genuinly strive to make absolute, 100% sure, that they are selling an authentic product...

I believe that this site will be around for a long time, and we'll still be dealing with Meigray....but through historical trends, my money says that most of these auction houses, along with Lampson, won't be around in 5 years

kingjammy24
04-05-2007, 04:34 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires."

the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.

kingjammy24
04-05-2007, 04:52 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.

CollectGU
04-05-2007, 07:31 PM
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...unfortunately, even though I hate to admit it, if something really sweet came along I'd probably go after it

everyone makes mistakes once in a while but this is a joke...the auction houses know exactly what's going on...they must have some great connections because 95% of their auctions contain the same garbage as the last one...and their next auction will continue the trend and so on...

by running an honest & ethical business is what will keep you around...I've seen MANY dealers come and go...at first, a lot of them ran a great gig, but unfortunately greed took over...I think that's the problem with today's auctions...GREED!!!!!...I believe that Meigray, without any comparison, runs the best customer-oriented business that I have seen in my 19 years of experience...100% guarentees, they take the time to fully inspect a product, and genuinly strive to make absolute, 100% sure, that they are selling an authentic product...

I believe that this site will be around for a long time, and we'll still be dealing with Meigray....but through historical trends, my money says that most of these auction houses, along with Lampson, won't be around in 5 years


To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave

ChrisCavalier
04-06-2007, 12:13 PM
the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.
Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to get caught up on things after having minor surgery last week and I have to say I find this thread fascinating. First of all, to Patrick and everyone who participated on this thread, I really have to say I think you guys have done a tremendous job explaining this situation.

I also have one question. Is it possible that Elway wore more than one jersey in the September 1994 game? Absent that possibility, I'm really trying to figure out how in the world this jersey is still being auctioned after a review of the information that has been presented here. If Elway did wear only one jersey in that game, why has this jersey not been pulled? :confused:

Has there not been enough evidence presented here to show a mistake was likely made when authenticating the jersey? Or, is there not at least enough information to show there are significant questions that need to be answered before a collector spends thousands of dollars on this jersey (the bidding is currently at about $1,700 with the premium with about a week left in the auction)?

Thanks in advance for any additional information that I might be missing.

Sincerely,
Chris

allstarsplus
04-06-2007, 03:24 PM
Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Originally Posted by CollectGU http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=36819#post36819)
To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave
Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

mr.miracle
04-07-2007, 06:45 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.


Rudy:

You are hilarious, I cannot stop laughing.

mr.miracle
04-07-2007, 07:06 PM
Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

Andrew:

You are right on with your assessment. Because there is nobody that is truly policing this industry besides this forum and perhaps several others, that take an interest in the items being sold through the auction houses, there is a very real possibility that many, many additional items never get pulled that are questionable at best.

Lets be honest, even with all the members of this forum that collect many different items, not even a fraction of the many many items in the various auctions throughout the year get overly scrutinized and are left to the word of the authenticator. Andrew is correct, if just a small sample is found to have inherent flaws, then if we looked at these auctions as a whole and critiqued each item in them, how many more would we honestly find that were very questionable to outright fraudulent???

I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

EndzoneSports
04-08-2007, 09:54 AM
I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,

allstarsplus
04-08-2007, 05:16 PM
Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Errors will occur and we have all made them, but when there is a pattern of these errors---is it really an error or perhaps something worse? That is certainly debatable. When there is easily obtainable photos or stats that would contradict a finding, is it an error made when the conclusion just isn't possible or plausible?

Here is Merriam Webster Dictionary definition of an error:

Main Entry: er·ror http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?error001.wav=error'))
Pronunciation: 'er-&r, 'e-r&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English errour, from Anglo-French, from Latin error, from errare
An act that through ignorance, deficiency, or accident departs from or fails to achieve what should be done <an error in judgment>


Originally Posted by Mr. Miracle
I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.
I agree with Brett, if it has a Lou Lampson LOA/COA, I'm not buying and agree I would rather have no cert with the item.


Originally Posted by Lund6771
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...

Agreed, and reps from those Auction Houses certainly read the Forum. I don't get it.

Andrew

mr.miracle
04-08-2007, 10:27 PM
Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,



Patrick:

There is little doubt that as long as there are professional authenticators mistakes will be made by all. We can all reference discussed on this very forum from every authenticator out there that has been questionable at best over the years. However, that being said, the fact that time after time, over and over, item after item after item that is authenticated by Lou Lampson has been proven to be not only questionable but downright erroneous in every sense of the word.

If Lampson has over 8000 photos in his personal collection, perhaps he should add a few more by photographing items he has authenticated. That way when he references them against new items he could at least prevent the current situation with the Elway jersey from happening so that he would not look like a complete buffoon on a repeated basis.

At some point, the reputation of these auction houses that continue to use Lou Lampson's services is going to suffer and perhaps in some cases they already have. As the reputation of this very forum continues to grow and its membership ranks swell, the continuous flow of worthless LOA's that Lampson writes will continue to come up in debate on this forum for all to see. Real or not, authentic or not, as this continues nobody will purchase anything authenticated by Lampson at least if they spend any time reading the weekly comedy routine on this forum that is the Lou Lampson authentication process. Actually, it is more like a greek tragedy as hard working individuals are trusting that this man has done his utmost to ensure that the items he is authenticating are what they are portrayed to be. People are dumping tens of thousands of dollars per item in some cases into items that are complete garbage and as it has been pointed out on this forum before, Lampson is laughing all the way to the bank.

It was pointed out on this forum before that even when AMI or Vintage has contacted Lampson about very, very questionable items and presented to him the issues raised, he has more or less said trust me, it is real. That is some level of reassurance and certainly goes a long way toward clarifying issues surrounding the items.

Nobody is perfect and nobody expects anybody to be perfect however we do expect Mr. Lampson to do his job and do it right. As it stands now, it looks like he is more concerned with quantity over quality and rubber stamping as many items with his seal of approval as he can.

Does anybody know how I can go into the memorabilia authentication industry??? Outside of weathermen I am not sure what other career allows one to make so many mistakes and still retain a job.

EndzoneSports
04-09-2007, 07:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not defending the track record of Mr. Lampson. I have been just as critical of mistakes made by Lou, Bernie Gernay, Grey Flannel, etc.--in fact our position is one of being critical of the hobby's reliance upon 3rd-party authentication as a whole.

Our point was simply stating the deficiencies of the process as a whole. Though imperfect, this is a situation where one (in this case the GUU collecting community) must be careful for what they ask for, lest their request be answered. In the early to mid-90s, when our specific genre of collecting really took off, the rapid increase in demand led to an escalation of prices. With the increase in the amount of money involved came the temptation for the less scrupulous to engage in fraud and deceit. In order to combat those who would perpetrate less than forthright dealings, the concept of 3rd-party authentication arose. Unless, as a collecting community, we can find a way to remove the possibility for fraud/deceit in the items that we covet, the need/demand for 3rd-party authentication will remain.

In an arena of such uncertainty, newer, less experienced collectors--who lack the experience/resources to formulate their own educated opinions--must continue to rely upon the opinions of others as they make their purchasing decisions. Likewise, even amongst more experienced veteran collectors, there remains a segment that seems to sleep better at night, knowing that someone else's opinion agrees with their own before laying out what can be the cash equivalent of a quality used car for "someone else’s dirty shirt" (as my wife puts it).

In the face of continued uncertainty, I offer collectors a bit of advice... No item, unless personally removed from the back of the athlete following a sporting event, can be attributed as such with absolute certainty. As we all know, only a miniscule percentage of game worn/used items make it directly into the hands of collectors in this fashion. As such, some amount of faith in the process is required--faith in the nature of the displayed physical characteristics, faith in the provenance, faith in the opinion of an authenticator, faith in the reputation of the seller. At face value, each of these elements should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism, and reconciled to a point of a "comfort level" for each individual purchaser. Where some whom might rely more heavily upon authentication would state that they "would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole", others would likely just approach such an item as if it had not been authenticated at all, preferring to pass their own judgment on the items' other merits.

How individual collectors/purchasers come to such reconciliation is really a personal matter. I was fortunate enough to have come into this hobby at a time when the items at hand were not the high-dollar commodity that they’ve become today. At the time when I was still an inexperienced newcomer to the hobby, a relative degree of certainty regarding an item’s authenticity was inherent simply by its’ purchase from one of the two or three legitimate dealers who dealt in such obscure collectibles. Fast forward to today, where I feel that my level of knowledge has elevated to a point of being able to almost completely disregard a seller’s unverifiable claims of provenance and/or an authenticator’s opinion, replacing them with my own opinion.

In deference to those collectors caught in between (neither a newcomer nor an expert be), I would again contend that the collective knowledge of the members of this forum is one of the best available resources when uncertainty arises. The fact is that Lou Lampson/MEARS/Grey Flannel/Bernie Gernay/ad infinitum will continue to make mistakes. While some will make fewer than others and some will be better about how those mistakes are rectified, these will still occur. Accepting this, I stand by my assertion that we owe it to the collecting community to share our knowledge and insight.

As a side-bar… In addition to our duty to share information that may be helpful to other collectors, comes the need to share that information responsibly. In my nearly two decades in this hobby’s pursuit, one absolute that I have established is that nearly nothing is sacred. Fonts vary, tagging inconsistencies exist, color variations occur. In offering advice to others, we need to be cautious in the application of absolutes—“always” and “never” are indeed true rarities in this hobby and should be seldom used. About the only absolute in this hobby is that nothing is absolute. Caution should be exercised when pointing out such inconsistencies. Not that such inconsistencies and shouldn't be pointed out as they often discredit an item, however, at times, the existence of these does not necessarily make an item bad/wrong. Often, irresponsible inferences to such "bad/wrong" items can be damaging to otherwise legitimate items.

Regards,

G1X
04-09-2007, 08:35 AM
Patrick's last post is perhaps the best thing ever written in this forum. These words of wisdom should be required reading of everyone involved in this hobby.

Clip it out and keep a copy in your wallet or pin it to your bulletin board. You will never get any better advice about this hobby than what Patrick has just given.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

hiramman
04-09-2007, 10:18 AM
I for one will not buy or bid on an item if it is backed up with a Lou Lampson authentication letter. If he has authenticated it, then I just ignore the auction. If enough people do that, the auction houses will have to respond.

lund6771
04-09-2007, 10:18 PM
anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

EndzoneSports
04-10-2007, 01:12 AM
anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

I sent an email to Steve Jensen of Vinatge Auctions and he responded on 4/2 that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." Having heard nothing further in a week, I sent a follow-up e-mail to Steve early on the morning of the 9th inquiring as to what came of the conversation; as of this time, I've not yet received a response.

Regards,

lund6771
04-11-2007, 06:14 PM
Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

EndzoneSports
04-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

Rob:

I've not heard anything back, but I would imagine that they must have a great deal of confidence in this being the one legitimate sample since the auction is still open. Even if convinced that their authenticator was right on this occasion, what does that say for his track record regarding the 2 (or 3) that were previously authenticated for AMI?

It's somewhat of a sad state when the auction houses lie in hiding, shielded from culpability behind the "opinion" of their paid authenticators, even in the face of clear evidence that the same authenticator has pulled the wool over the colletive eyes of the hobby on multiple occasions.

Regards,

CollectGU
04-12-2007, 08:34 AM
Given the information, AMI pulled theirs immediately and I am told will no longer offer that style at auction again....

Dave

Eric
04-12-2007, 10:28 AM
I absolutely appreciate American Memorabilia's stance here. It's great that they'll never offer one of these again, even though their authenticator says it's "game used"

It's refreshing that AMI is willing to override the authenticator.

I applaud everyone's efforts here which put all of this in motion.

Perhaps that might mean the end of auction houses saying "Well the authenticator said it's good, then it's good" when actual evidence is offered

Eric

lund6771
04-12-2007, 03:25 PM
I agree that it's great what AMI's stance on this is....but I think it's just a sugar coating because the real problem is Lampson, and as long as they continue to use him they will have many issues...they would be sooo much more respected if they got rid of that guy

VA's stance is absolutely dispicable

Eric
04-13-2007, 08:46 AM
FYI- This ended (not counting the buyer's fee) at $2071.88

EndzoneSports
04-17-2007, 04:48 PM
FYI- This ended (not counting the buyer's fee) at $2071.88

... and without our ever having received a response to our e-mail of 4/9 to Steve Jensen re: his intent to dialog with Lou on this item.

Best regards,

beantown
04-22-2007, 09:47 PM
Hang on...here's another one!

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=707&Lot_No=19921