Cal Ripken Fielders Glove Bought for a "Song" on eBay

[ripkengamers]

Well, looks like I was late to pick up on this deal! Someone picked up, what I believe, is a very legit game used fielders glove of Cal Ripken Jr off of eBay today............I only wish I could have spotted it first. Based upon my conversations with Denny Esken, it think this is the real deal! This could be a museum piece and would probably sell in a major auction house for 3x the $3k it sold for!

http://cgi.ebay.com/CAL-RIPKEN-JR-8-ORIOLES-GAME-USED-GLOVE-AUTO-HOF_W0QQitemZ220109154959QQihZ012QQcategoryZ60597Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Anyone on the forum know the buyer djob001?

[mr.miracle]

Dan:

That ebay name seems very familiar but not sure. I cannot believe that price. I did not see this item at all, too bad it ended at that because assuming this is real, as you said, this person got a real steal.

[CollectGU]

Guys,

I bought the glove.

Regards,
Dave

[mr.miracle]

Guys,

I bought the glove.

Regards,
Dave


Nice find Dave, looks like a heck of a piece at an incredible price based on what Ripken gloves go for. Don't know how I missed it on ebay but congratulations. I thought I recongnized the user name somewhere.

[thomecollector]

That's awesome. If it is indeed real. Great pick up. Any one know how I can contact Danny Eskin ? I have a Thome glove I want to ask him about. Thanks in advance. Roger

[Carlevv]

I have a simular Ripken glove but it isnt signed. What do Cal's gloves go for these days?

[ripkengamers]

Carlevv,

Please post photos of your glove; thumb, palm, heal, back, etc. so the forum members can assess whether you have a potential legitimate glove before you get too excited about its value!

[Carlevv]

Ripken Gamers, I dont have a camera at the time to take photo's but its the real deal. It has about the same use as the one i saw on ebay. Its not signed. Pro-6hf as usual, but one thing... There is white fur where the top of Cal's hand goes. It measures about a quarter inch wide and goes along the whole area where his had was. I think this is one of JR's customizing traits right? Thanks. I put it up against my AROD glove and if you look through the index finger hole on Cal's glove there is stitching where a pad is put in. Not on AROD's pro-6hf. Interesting.

[Carlevv]

Also, on the outside of the pinky finger where it reads gold glove series, the one i have doesnt have it and the one on Ebay does. Weird. Not sure what year my glove is from, if i had to guess i'd say mid 90's.

[ripkengamers]

Carlevv,

Without photo's there's not much I can comment on. Mine also has fur under the wrist strap but the comment you made about not have the "Golden Glove Series" has me very suspicious. I'm not a glove expert but I don't recall not seeing this inscription on his gloves. Generally there is a series of dots below this verbiage with indicates the year of manufacture. I've seen a few variations of the Pro-6HF he has used. If you really want more definitive comments I'd borrow a digital camera and send some photos!

[Carlevv]

Dan, thanks for responding back. The glove on Ebay had no fur and thats interesting. As far as the "suspicious" pinky that doesnt have gold glove series im not worried about that. Considering i aquired the glove in a major league clubhouse im not worried about it being a fake or a store bought glove. I was just asking how much these gloves are selling for, thats all. Thanks for your info though.

[Carlevv]

FYI, i looked at getty images and found a lot of pictures of Cal Ripken with gloves that dont have that writing on the pinky. Dan, do you have pading on the inside underneath the index finger hole? Thanks.

[mr.miracle]

I have a simular Ripken glove but it isnt signed. What do Cal's gloves go for these days?


Carlevv:

I too would be interested in seeing pics of this glove. As an avid Ripken collector I am always looking for photos and pieces to add to my collection. On a side note, I am in need of a Ripken glove so if someone can produce a legit glove and is looking to sell at a reasonable price I would be most interested in taking a look.

Thanks

[Carlevv]

Brett, what is a reasonable price? For various reasons i dont want to post pics of the glove in a public fourm. I would however share the pics if i get an offer.

[Carlevv]

Carlevv:

I too would be interested in seeing pics of this glove. As an avid Ripken collector I am always looking for photos and pieces to add to my collection. On a side note, I am in need of a Ripken glove so if someone can produce a legit glove and is looking to sell at a reasonable price I would be most interested in taking a look.

ThanksBrett, i also have a cracked P72 with major use and its signed. I have a pair of Rip-8 batting gloves unsigned and an Orioles line up card that is signed as well. Let me know if your collection can use any of these itmes.

[mr.miracle]

Brett, what is a reasonable price? For various reasons i dont want to post pics of the glove in a public fourm. I would however share the pics if i get an offer.


If you are able to email pics when you have a working camera to my email address listed on each post that would be great. I have only seen two Ripken gloves sold over the past three or four years on any auction format. One was the glove just purchased by a forum member that is referenced in this post on ebay. The other was sold through I believe AMI a couple of years ago for a rather ridiculous price. If you can email me privately, I will discuss this is further detail.

What year or years is the P72 from??? or labeling period if you know? In terms of the batting gloves, are they White Franklins with Black, Black with white or Black with Orange and what year or time period are they from if you know?

Thanks

[mr.miracle]

Brett, i also have a cracked P72 with major use and its signed. I have a pair of Rip-8 batting gloves unsigned and an Orioles line up card that is signed as well. Let me know if your collection can use any of these itmes.


I am assuming the batting gloves are the black with orange trim that Cal used I believe around 94-95 until the end of his career. Let me know on that one.

What finish is your bat as well, forgot to ask that one?

thanks

[RobSteinmetz]

It is my understanding that the glove purchased on eBay by Dave O'Brien was recently rejected by Dennis Esken. Apparently the glove has the wrong lining...information that was confirmed with the Rawlings employee who actually made gloves for Cal Ripken, Jr. I'm not sure if Dave was able to get a refund on the glove from the eBay seller, but hopefully the glove isn't sold to another unsuspecting collector as a Ripken gamer.

Rob

[CollectGU]

Hi Rob,

This is news to me, and certainly not good news. I haven't heard anything back one way or the other yet but was waiting to hear. So far I have only compared it to photos of another forum member's glove and everything seems to match up. Who provided this info to you? What exactly was the problem?

Thanks,
Dave

[RobSteinmetz]

Dave,

I was told that the lining of the glove is made of the wrong material, as was confirmed by both Denny Esken and the Rawlings employee who made Ripken's gloves. You might want to check with Victor at AMI, as I believe the glove was in his possession when Denny Esken shared this information with him last week.

Rob

[Carlevv]

Wow, thats crazy. When you say lining, do you mean the fur on the inside where the top of his hand goes?

[RobSteinmetz]

No, the actual leather that lines the entire inside of the glove.

Rob

[ironmanfan]

Why is anyone surprised by any of this?? Sounds like its time to ship this to Lou............

[allstarsplus]

Here is a non-gamer on the new Morphy's auction.


http://www.morphyauctions.com/ironclad/ironclad1/059_1.jpg

[allstarsplus]

I only wish I could have spotted it first. Based upon my conversations with Denny Esken, it think this is the real deal! This could be a museum piece and would probably sell in a major auction house for 3x the $3k it sold for!

http://cgi.ebay.com/CAL-RIPKEN-JR-8-ORIOLES-GAME-USED-GLOVE-AUTO-HOF_W0QQitemZ220109154959QQihZ012QQcategoryZ60597Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you spoke to Denny Esken about this glove and he said it was OK,
It is my understanding that the glove purchased on eBay by Dave O'Brien was recently rejected by Dennis Esken. Apparently the glove has the wrong lining...information that was confirmed with the Rawlings employee who actually made gloves for Cal Ripken, Jr. I'm not sure if Dave was able to get a refund on the glove from the eBay seller, but hopefully the glove isn't sold to another unsuspecting collector as a Ripken gamer.

Rob then which glove is Rob talking about that Esken is saying "NO" about????

http://i14.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/9d/06/4c8d_2.JPG

[RobSteinmetz]

I think Dan is referring to conversations he had with Denny in the past about Ripken gloves in general...the information from which led him to believe the glove Dave purchased on eBay was good. I don't think Dan had a specific conversation with Denny about the glove Dave O'Brien purchased. Before Denny saw what kind of lining the Ripken glove had, he did not comment (even to me) on whether the glove was good or bad.

Perhaps Dan can confirm this theory.

Rob

[allstarsplus]

Dave,

I was told that the lining of the glove is made of the wrong material, as was confirmed by both Denny Esken and the Rawlings employee who made Ripken's gloves. You might want to check with Victor at AMI, as I believe the glove was in his possession when Denny Esken shared this information with him last week.

Rob Wow. This glove travels fast. Sold the first week of May to Dave O'Brien and the following week in the hands of Victor at AMI


Hi Rob,

This is news to me, and certainly not good news. I haven't heard anything back one way or the other yet but was waiting to hear. So far I have only compared it to photos of another forum member's glove and everything seems to match up. Who provided this info to you? What exactly was the problem?

Thanks,
Dave

and Victor hasn't called Dave who provides complimentary editing services to AMI with a heads up that there are issues with the glove, but Rob knows because he spoke to.........

ironmanfan

Why is anyone surprised by any of this?? Sounds like its time to ship this to Lou............Today 06:02 PM

Ironmanfan has a great suggestion for Dave O'Brien to get that 2nd opinion.....Andrew

[mr.miracle]

Perhaps Ironmanfan or another person knowlegeable about this could post a response. How many game used gloves do you think actually exist from Cal's playing days? On average or perhaps specifically if anyone knows, how many gloves would Cal have used in a given season 1, 2? Any ideas at all? Given the fact that you never see these in circulation but once in a blue moon and the ones that you do see seem questionable, I would venture to say that we are easily looking at less than 50 total gloves in a 21 year career. If anyone could shed light on this it would be helpful.

Thanks

[Carlevv]

I once saw a glove in Cal's locker that had hand written years on it. I believe it read 95, 96, 97. Well it was for sure in 95 so it actually could have read 93, 94, 95 as well but you catch my drift. Cal actually labeled the glove for the years he used it. Has anyone here seen that glove? Thats gotta be the coolest glove IMO that Cal would have ever used. Also, at one point he did stop using that same glove but not sure when he stopped. It wasnt long after i saw it because i would have saw more years on it. As far as how many gloves Cal used in his 21 years? I would'nt have a clue on a number but whatever that number is its not getting any bigger. His gloves are tough to find, at least legit ones im finding out.

[ripkengamers]

I think Dan is referring to conversations he had with Denny in the past about Ripken gloves in general...the information from which led him to believe the glove Dave purchased on eBay was good. I don't think Dan had a specific conversation with Denny about the glove Dave O'Brien purchased. Before Denny saw what kind of lining the Ripken glove had, he did not comment (even to me) on whether the glove was good or bad.

Perhaps Dan can confirm this theory.

Rob

Rob,
You are correct. I did not speak to Denny relative to Dave's glove. I was speaking in regards to a past conversation I had with Denny regarding Cal's gloves. I trust and highly regard Denny's opinions and I'm surprise that he said Dave's glove is not legit although I only saw the photos everyone else saw on eBay. The general overall fading of the leather and heavily oiled palm are indeed traits of Cal's gamers. Cal only oiled the palms of his gloves and most quality GU gloves are faded from the sun. I'm curious to hear exactly what about the inside leather that Denny was objecting to. If anyone finds out more please post in the forum. Hopefully Dave can provide the details.

[hblakewolf]

Dave O'Brien-

Can you possibly comment on the photo below?

5932


It is from the September 14, 2007 Heritage Auction catalog ad in SCD that shows the exact same glove as the one in this thread! After speaking with Chris Ivy at Heritage, he confirms that the glove is the exact same glove as the one you purchased on ebay! Right down to the hologram from Online Authentics that was mentioned in the Ebay listing!

When I questioned you less than an hour ago on this glove, you replied ,Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 366


http://www.gameuseduniverse.net/vb_forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Derek Jeter 2002 Jersey/pants For Sale
Howard,

I would think that a pair of home white pinstripes with Yankee/Steiner provenance regardless of year would bring more than a pair of road grey no provenance. I thought I would point it out to you, no need to get defensive and try and switch subjects! No update for you on the glove, but stay tuned.

Regards,
Dave


According to Chris Ivy, he will investigate and take appropriate action.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[CollectGU]

Howard,

It is the same glove, and I can simply tell you that it has been confirmed by Bob Clevenhagen, the actual maker of these gloves, that there is not a problem with the lining as was originally noted on the forum.

Regards,

Dave

[3arod13]

Wow, this is amazing. It's getting to the point if you don't have a video of the player actually handing you the GU item and stating information about it, then it's always going to be questionable.

Opinions aren't as solid as they were in the past with the many errors even made by some of the more knowledgeable experts lately (not to say that's the case in this matter).

Truly, truly sad.

Regards, Tony

[kingjammy24]

while i don't know a thing about gloves, there's something in all of this that's a little worrisome: the fact that ripken has come out and stated he "has all of his fielding gloves except one "backup gamer" that he gave to a little kid and one that was stolen in Kansas City." ( http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9795 )

given ripken's admission, i can't understand how a buyer could have any serious confidence without a photomatch or rock-solid provenance. until ripken's shown to have either lied or been mistaken, i have to think he's probably the best authority on the supply of his legit gamers. esken or clevenhagen can opine on whether a glove matches ripken's specs but that's only half the equation. all it does is confirm that the glove was made to ripken's specs, which isn't the same thing as saying it was made specifically for ripken. it's even further away from saying it was used by ripken. when you've got a handful of people out there claiming to have a ripken game-used glove and ripken himself stating he has all of them except one, then something's amiss.

anyway, dave i have to admit i'm curious why you chose to consign the glove to heritage instead of AMI, given that you have a relationship with the latter?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

It's getting to the point if you don't have a video of the player actually handing you the GU item and stating information about it, then it's always going to be questionable.

to an extent, yes. however i think this case is unique because ripken has stated he has all of his gamers except for one, yet there are a handful of people out there claiming to have ripken game-used gloves.

you rarely get players publically discussing what they have and what they don't. if you do though, i have to think it's valuable information that should be considered. in lieu of this information though, all you can do is go with what you have.

i don't have a video, for example, of roberto kelly handing me his 1992 all-star game shirt. from all aspects though, the shirt appears to be his 1992 all-star game shirt so that's what i'm going to believe. however, if kelly himself stated that he has his 1992 all-star game shirt, then i'm probably going to think that he's right. until that time though, all of the evidence points to it being the one so that's what seems logical for me to believe.

rudy.

[BaseballGM]

I once had the opportunity to speak with a prominent MLB player about his game used gloves. He admitted to giving away gloves to family friends etc that were sent to him by various manufacturers; however he could tell by looks whether he used a particular glove or not. In his locker that day was the one he used in games and one he was breaking in during BP.

[mr.miracle]

Rudy has hit the nail right on the head here. According to Ripken two total game used gloves or at least game ready gloves of his or presently not in his possession. Right from Cal's own mouth and I quote, "The only thing that I am currently not in control of is two gloves. One was my backup gamer that I gave to a kid; the other glove was stolen from me while playing in Kansas City." We obviously do not know if his backup gamer ever saw any game use so it could be it was a game issued but never used in an actual game. In any case here is one potential problem. I am presently aware of four individuals who are claiming to have Cal Ripken Jr. game used gloves. There is the one that Dan Derleth has been advertising for sale on this forum over the past two months. There is an additional glove that another forum member presently claims to have in his own possession that is a Ripken game used glove. Dave O'Brien also has or had a glove in his possession which is now apparently consigned for sale through Heritage. Additionally, another very prominent Ripken collector reportedly has one in his collection as well.

As it was pointed out when this story first came out, it is impossible for Cal Ripken to say that he has everything game used that was ever worn or used by him in his possession except for these two gloves. Obviously if that was the case, all of the bats that are currently out there would have to be fakes. However, gloves are another story based upon evidence that suggests that Cal might have only used a dozen gloves or less during his playing career.

Although I am comfortable purchasing various Ripken game used bats and select other memorabilia considering the source, I would not touch any of these gloves with a ten foot pole. If Cal is correct on this issue and I have every reason to believe that he is at least in respect to his game used gloves, then at least two of the four gloves that I am aware of are fakes and who knows how many other gloves that are reportedly game used by Cal are out there that nobody knows about.

My understanding in relation to the question for Dave O'Brien and why he consigned this glove to Heritage is due to the questions raised by Denny Eskin regarding this gloves authenticity. I would speculate that since Denny gave it a thumbs down, Victor was not comfortable placing it in the auction. If that is in fact true, somebody should have sent it over to Lou Lampson as I am sure he would have taken one look at it and signed off on its authenticity. Perhaps Dave can shed some additional light on that issue.

Thanks

[ironmanfan]

In case anyone was curious if Cal had suffered any long term memory loss since his playing career ended (relative to his comments in a recent Beckett), I suggest all interested parties refer to a July 1997 interview that Beckett also did with Cal...(page 104). You'll note that his commnets are strangely consistent.

Beckett: Do you try to collect memorabilia from your career?

Ripken: I have been very particular about my gloves and certain things that I wear. To me, it's like your glove is what you worked with. I try to keep control of that. I try not to let too much of that get out. Somebody stole a glove of mine between Kansas City and Baltimore or something. It got taken out of a bag. Thats the only glove that's unaccounted for. It was my game glove.

The glove in the auction is garbage though I have to admit that sticker on it looks way neato...:p

[allstarsplus]

Although I am comfortable purchasing various Ripken game used bats and select other memorabilia considering the source, I would not touch any of these gloves with a ten foot pole. If Cal is correct on this issue and I have every reason to believe that he is at least in respect to his game used gloves, then at least two of the four gloves that I am aware of are fakes and who knows how many other gloves that are reportedly game used by Cal are out there that nobody knows about.

There are dozens of dedicated Ripken high-end collections and I know another with an identical looking Ripken glove (not autographed). I wonder where all these gloves came from and who owns the real Kansas City swiped glove. By the way, Cal always had a good backup mitt in his possession and knows those whereabouts too except the legitimate one he gave to a kid.

So who is telling the truth here? I believe Cal is.

I agree 100% with Brett's posting except I would buy the glove if it was characterized correctly as a factory game model and priced accordingly. It is still a great glove---but not for $2,999.

I can tell you with almost the highest probability that Cal also would never sign one of his gloves (except an unused glove) unless it came directly from him (and according to Cal that has never happened yet). He would recognize immediately if someone brought to him the Kansas City "missing" glove.

The glove Dave O'Brien purchased was autographed at the National in 2002.

http://oa-images.onlineauthentics.com/sm/OA-7307695.jpg

So within the last 5 years since this glove was autographed it probably changed hands several times and my guess is someone worked it up as a game used glove.


According to Chris Ivy, he will investigate and take appropriate action.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

This should be interesting what Chris Ivy does. Andrew

[mvandor]

Alot of bubbles get burst around here, don't they? :(

[mr.miracle]

There are dozens of dedicated Ripken high-end collections and I know another with an identical looking Ripken glove (not autographed). I wonder where all these gloves came from and who owns the real Kansas City swiped glove. By the way, Cal always had a good backup mitt in his possession and knows those whereabouts too except the legitimate one he gave to a kid.

So who is telling the truth here? I believe Cal is.

I agree 100% with Brett's posting except I would buy the glove if it was characterized correctly as a factory game model and priced accordingly. It is still a great glove---but not for $2,999.

I can tell you with almost the highest probability that Cal also would never sign one of his gloves (except an unused glove) unless it came directly from him (and according to Cal that has never happened yet). He would recognize immediately if someone brought to him the Kansas City "missing" glove.

The glove Dave O'Brien purchased was autographed at the National in 2002.

http://oa-images.onlineauthentics.com/sm/OA-7307695.jpg

So within the last 5 years since this glove was autographed it probably changed hands several times and my guess is someone worked it up as a game used glove.



This should be interesting what Chris Ivy does. Andrew


Great post Andrew:

One other missing piece that I forgot about, AMI sold what was generally regarded as a genuine Ripken game used glove several years ago. I belive it was examined by Denny Eskin and had an LOA from him. I will see if I can post the link if I can find it for examiniation purposes. That glove sold for I believe somewhere above $17 grand. Unless that glove is one of the four that I am familiar with, then that is at least a fifth glove out there and you mentioned another so that is six. If as you say the glove is labled correctly as a game issued then it would be a great piece to have. The problem is that when I spoke to Bob at Rawlings several months back he mentioned to me that Ripken gloves were reproduced as exact replicas that are so difficult to tell from the real thing that only the very foremost experts can tell them apart. That being said, Bob also said that anyone who had access to these gloves could take them to an adult twi-light league and instantly you have a Ripken game used glove.

Here is the info. from AMI on the Ripken glove from several years back. It would be interesting to know when that glove was stolen in KC or when Cal gave out the other one based on the date that this glove is reportedly from. I wonder if this could be one of those two. IF it is the real deal which several sources have told me it is, then it certainly must be one of those two gloves.

Lot 279: 1996-97 Cal Ripken Jr. Game-Worn Glove (Please read description)

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/images/PLFirst.gif (javascript:previousPage()) Go Back (javascript:previousPage()) | Read Description (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22608#ReadDesc) Bids: 25
Acct No: 591
High Bid: $19,707
Auction Closed: 09/29/2005
[/URL]
[URL="javascript:;"]http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/images/WatchListAdd.gif (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22608#ReadDesc)
Click Image to Enlarge
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/22608_dt.jpg (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/pics/22608_lg.jpg)
1996-97 Cal Ripken Jr. Game-Worn Glove (Please read description)

Cal Ripken Jr. has done pretty much everything during his extraordinary 21-year career. He holds the consecutive games streak that won't be beat in our lifetime, our children's lifetime or even our grandkids. He wasted no time when he entered the league in 1982 and won AL Rookie of the Year, won MVP in 1983 and 1991. Ripken also captured two Gold Glove awards while wearing this exact style glove. As do most players, Ripken took his time when breaking in a fielder's mitt. That's more than likely what stage this used Cal Ripken Jr. "Rawlings PRO-6 HF" glove was in. Heavy dirt but fairly stiff leather is exhibited on this 12" tan shortstop-third baseman "Heart of the Hide" treasure made from Horween leather. The "Gold Glove Series" piece features a 12" fastback and "Ripken" embroidered in black thread on the thumb.
Authenticators

100% Authentic/Denny Esken (Read Details) (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22608#)
100% Authentic Team (Read Details) (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=22608#)

[ironmanfan]

It's not the missing glove because Cal told me that this happened in the mid 1980's, well before names were stitched on gloves.

[allstarsplus]

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52022898.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F8518A8D414812464FA072F75BABAABF

A pic of the real inside of one of Cal's gloves. There should also be some substantial sweat staining/discoloration on the outside of the glove where his 4th finger was.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52022898.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F8518A8D414812464FA072F75BABAABF

[ironmanfan]

If anyone is serious in seeing what a real game used Ripken glove looks like, there is one on display at the Sports Legends Museum next to Camden Yards. This picture is only of the overall Ripken display (from their web site) but perhaps I (or another member) will get a better picture to post the next time I (or they) head down to a game.

[yankees159]

Howard,

It is the same glove, and I can simply tell you that it has been confirmed by Bob Clevenhagen, the actual maker of these gloves, that there is not a problem with the lining as was originally noted on the forum.

Regards,

Dave

Hi Dave:

If this is the case did Mr. Clevenhagen write a letter on this glove indicating that it is Game Used? This response does not answer the question of the glove being game used, it only speaks of the lining.

I look forward to your response.


Best regards,

Todd

[hblakewolf]

Hi Dave:

If this is the case did Mr. Clevenhagen write a letter on this glove indicating that it is Game Used? This response does not answer the question of the glove being game used, it only speaks of the lining.

I look forward to your response.


Best regards,

Todd

Todd-
I'd like to see the written exchange between Dave O'Brien and Mr. Clevenhagen. At this point, who actually knows what was asked of Clevenhagen and what it was based on? If an exterior shot was forwarded to Rawlings, for all we know Clevenhagen could have said it looks good.

It's my understanding that a few of the readers on this site have communicated and still communicate with Mr. Clevenhagen and Denny Eskin. In a previous post, it was noted that Eskin felt the glove was not correct for a Ripken gamer. Is it possible for one of you who speaks with these experts to make a call and provide additional insight about this particular glove?

At this point, this has turned into a "he said, she said" exchange with Historic Auctions wondering what they actually have in their hands. Based on the other posts, it appears it's not a game used glove, as Ripken can account for all of them, except 2, and this is not one of them. Is it even a Ripken issued glove, or is there a problem with the lining, as previously noted and was never intended or made for Ripken's use?

Dave, several questions have been asked of you, yet no answers provided.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[3arod13]

Todd-
I'd like to see the written exchange between Dave O'Brien and Mr. Clevenhagen. At this point, who actually knows what was asked of Clevenhagen and what it was based on? If an exterior shot was forwarded to Rawlings, for all we know Clevenhagen could have said it looks good.

It's my understanding that a few of the readers on this site have communicated and still communicate with Mr. Clevenhagen and Denny Eskin. In a previous post, it was noted that Eskin felt the glove was not correct for a Ripken gamer. Is it possible for one of you who speaks with these experts to make a call and provide additional insight about this particular glove?

At this point, this has turned into a "he said, she said" exchange with Historic Auctions wondering what they actually have in their hands. Based on the other posts, it appears it's not a game used glove, as Ripken can account for all of them, except 2, and this is not one of them. Is it even a Ripken issued glove, or is there a problem with the lining, as previously noted and was never intended or made for Ripken's use?

Dave, several questions have been asked of you, yet no answers provided.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

I'm sure by now Denny Eskin is aware of this thread, however, I will forward it to him to be sure.

This has been interesting reading and I really hope this comes to a solid conclusion.

Regards, Tony

[CollectGU]

Todd,

Bob explained that he cannot verify the path it took after it left him, and for that matter nobody can on many pieces of game used equipment, but that it was made for Cal Ripken by him. Similiar to bat records, I was able to verify it was made for the player. It would be up to collector's to judge wear characteristics, what cal has said in interviews, etc.., and make a decision on their comfort level...

Regards,
Dave

[allstarsplus]

At this point, this has turned into a "he said, she said" exchange with Historic Auctions wondering what they actually have in their hands.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Is that a typo? Is it Historic or Heritage that has the glove?

thanks. Andrew

[CollectGU]

Howard,

I am not about to take a person's private e-mails and post it on this forum without permission.

By the way, since we are on gloves, with regards to the jeter glove you sold some time back with mastro for 10k, did you ever find any evidence that shows Jeter using a Mizuno glove during an actual game. I spoke with Denny about that glove some time ago, and he told me it was no good as well.

Regards,
Dave

Todd-
I'd like to see the written exchange between Dave O'Brien and Mr. Clevenhagen. At this point, who actually knows what was asked of Clevenhagen and what it was based on? If an exterior shot was forwarded to Rawlings, for all we know Clevenhagen could have said it looks good.

It's my understanding that a few of the readers on this site have communicated and still communicate with Mr. Clevenhagen and Denny Eskin. In a previous post, it was noted that Eskin felt the glove was not correct for a Ripken gamer. Is it possible for one of you who speaks with these experts to make a call and provide additional insight about this particular glove?

At this point, this has turned into a "he said, she said" exchange with Historic Auctions wondering what they actually have in their hands. Based on the other posts, it appears it's not a game used glove, as Ripken can account for all of them, except 2, and this is not one of them. Is it even a Ripken issued glove, or is there a problem with the lining, as previously noted and was never intended or made for Ripken's use?

Dave, several questions have been asked of you, yet no answers provided.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[hblakewolf]

Dave-I'm sure if you contact Mr. Clevenhagen and seek his permission to post his findings, he will allow it to be posted.

Dave-As noted to you in your other requests about this particular glove, Dave Bushing was comfortable providing the LOA on it for the Mastro auction. It's my understanding that tremendous research is conducted before they issue their LOA's on game used equipment. Dave and Troy may be able to put your concerns to rest, and provide you with the answers you so desperatley continue to seek. They can be contacted directly at: http://www.mearsonline.com/contact/ (http://www.mearsonline.com/contact/)

Did Denny supposedly disclose that this Jeter glove was "no good" during the same conversation he had with you when he informed you that YOUR RIPKEN GLOVE was not being included in the American Memorabila auction, because it had the incorrect lining, and was not possibly a Ripken game used glove? As a side note, didn't Mr. Eskin also indicate your glove was fake, yet Mr. Clevenhagen at Rawlings disputes this? Possibly you should locate a similar individual with Mizuno, and you'll learn that the Jeter glove that continues to trouble you was properly identified by Dave Bushing and sold correctly by Mastro.

All the best,
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[CollectGU]

Howard,
Denny did confirm that the Jeter glove you sold was in his opinion no good about one year ago. Your response when i ask you about this all time the time and ask for evidence that he used a Mizuno glove in game cation is always - "MEARS said it was good so it must have been good". This is coming from a person who advises to always do your own homework...

Bob Clevenhagen disputed that the lining was incorrect and confirmed to me that this glove was made for Cal Ripken.


Regards,
Dave


Dave-I'm sure if you contact Mr. Clevenhagen and seek his permission to post his findings, he will allow it to be posted.

Dave-As noted to you in your other requests about this particular glove, Dave Bushing was comfortable providing the LOA on it for the Mastro auction. It's my understanding that tremendous research is conducted before they issue their LOA's on game used equipment. Dave and Troy may be able to put your concerns to rest, and provide you with the answers you so desperatley continue to seek. They can be contacted directly at: http://www.mearsonline.com/contact/ (http://www.mearsonline.com/contact/)

Did Denny supposedly disclose that this Jeter glove was "no good" during the same conversation he had with you when he informed you that YOUR RIPKEN GLOVE was not being included in the American Memorabila auction, because it had the incorrect lining, and was not possibly a Ripken game used glove? As a side note, didn't Mr. Eskin also indicate your glove was fake, yet Mr. Clevenhagen at Rawlings disputes this? Possibly you should locate a similar individual with Mizuno, and you'll learn that the Jeter glove that continues to trouble you was properly identified by Dave Bushing and sold correctly by Mastro.

All the best,
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[yankees159]

Hi Dave:


Thanks for the response. Let me be more clear to the previous question I asked, and has not been addressed. Did Mr. Clevenger state in writing that this is the exact same type of Glove that Cal Ripken used in major league games?


Thanks,


Todd

[hblakewolf]

Hi Dave:


Thanks for the response. Let me be more clear to the previous question I asked, and has not been addressed. Did Mr. Clevenger state in writing that this is the exact same type of Glove that Cal Ripken used in major league games?


Thanks,


Todd

Todd-
It's pretty well known that Bob Clevenhagen will write letters on game used gloves from time to time...in fact, I think AMI recently sold a Luis Tiant glove with a Clevenhagen letter. With that said, and to expand on on your previous question, can Dave answer if a letter exist on Rawlings letterhead from Bob Clevenhagen that states he made the glove for Ripken? If not, why doesn't the Ripken glove in the Hertiage auction have a letter from Clevenhagen?

Assuming Bob told Dave that he made this glove for Ripken...is it possible that Bob was emailed photos of the glove and initially believed it was a glove he made for Ripken, but later discovered a detail about the glove that led him to believe otherwise? Bob's a busy man, and also human...so it's possible his initial reaction to the glove was inaccurate. The fact that there isn't a Rawlings LOA (or any hard documentation from Bob) with this glove tells me that somewhere along the line he likely changed his tune.

Just my thoughts.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[XPFO]

Has anyone ever thought of bringing the items in question to the actual players and not worrying about what authenticators say. Most MLB'ers outside of Bonds can be approached at the ballpark, the team hotel, through team reps etc.... Why when something is this important don't you go to the source. I had questions about a Magglio Ordonez item twice and both times I got responses from Maggs, once at the ballpark in Detroit and once at their hotel in Toronto. Don't keep guessing and basing the validity of the item on an authenticator...take some initiative and go to the source. These people tour all around the country, they are not on the other side of the world and they are far from unaproachable.

I purchased a Curtis Granderson game worn jersey from the tigers but it had no strip tagging on it so they couldn't verify when it was used, so what did I do...went to Curtis when the gates opened at an afternoon Tigers game, jersey in hand and talked it over with him and he told me exactly what it was, his 2004 call-up jersey.

If someone is trying to sell a fake very expensive game used item and you explain this to the athlete or to their rep or agent or member of the team, they will help you in determining its validity...it is definitley worth a shot, instead of playing the he said she said game....isn't it???

[CollectGU]

Howard,

Your assumptions are incorrect. In the meantime, let me know what kind of evidence you have that Jeter wore a Mizuno glove during a game...You seem to have no problem accepting MEARS findings when it comes to your items. Please let us see your photographice evidence for the Jeter glove, and stop hiding behind "MEARS said it was good so it must be" defense...If someone has access to Bob Malandro at Steiner, perhaps he can inquire from Derek and get an answer on the forum's behalf...

Regards,
Dave

[CollectGU]

Yes Todd. In an e-mail after seeing about 12 photos of all the glove characteristics including the lining.

Thnaks,
Dave


Hi Dave:


Thanks for the response. Let me be more clear to the previous question I asked, and has not been addressed. Did Mr. Clevenger state in writing that this is the exact same type of Glove that Cal Ripken used in major league games?


Thanks,


Todd

[XPFO]

I will be happy to go to the source on the Jeter issue. My best friend is the head concierge at the Yankees hotel when they stay in Toronto. I am allowed free rooms anytime, so I will make a day out of it with my family and take in the game while I'm there. I personally will sit in the lobby prior to the team leaving for the game and/or after the game (the majority of the team eats at the steakhouse across from the hotel anyways so they don't venture to far) and personally ask Mr. Jeter plain and simple has he ever used a Mizuno glove in a game. I know nothing of this glove, have never seen it, but would love to know the answer to this one. If someone can give me some more details (ie... colour etc...) I won't feel so stupid when I approach him.

[XPFO]

September 11-13 they are in town... so this is two weeks away, the more details the better.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I have read through this thread and think it is time for a process check. It seems to me this thread was created to help collectors understand more about the Cal Ripken Jr. glove currently in Heritage's auction. However, I noticed another item (the Derek Jeter glove) was brought up midstream. While it seems that the Jeter glove question may have educational value to collectors, I would like to remind everyone of the following forum rule:

No Topic Changing. Please do not derail threads because you do not agree with their content. If you do not like what you read, find or start a different thread.

Therefore, if anyone would like to continue a discussion of the Derek Jeter glove (which may very well have value for collectors), please create a new thread to discuss it. Discussing it in this thread is making it very confusing as things seem to keep changing from one topic to another.

As for the Ripken glove, given the lack of a letter from Mr. Clevenhagen, it seems to me that this thread has questioned whether or not Mr. Clevenhagen is completely aware of all aspects of the glove and whether or not he will fully support it as a glove used by Ripken (I am assuming that is how it is being sold). If there is some question around a potential misunderstanding of the glove, it would seem to me that it could be easily answered by contacting Mr. Clevenhagen directly. Am I off-base in that assumption?

Sincerely,
Chris

[yankees159]

In my opinion, this post shows me that dealers and auction houses aren't the only entities that possibly engage in questionable ethical dealings in order to make $$$. It's sad what this industry has become. THINGS MUST CHANGE!

[mvandor]

Clearly something personal is going on here in this war of words beteen two members, I assume there is some history there.

It seems to me there are collectors, and there are profiteers. Someone that scores an item at a below market price then immediately moves to flip it falls into the latter category in my book. So, if the Ripken is real then Dave scores a cool profit flipping it; if it is not, then he overpaid and will take a loss unless he moves it to someone else less discriminating. Accordingly, he has a significant interest in defending its legitimacy. At least one other person questions same, thus threatening the profiteering venture.

Is that about it?

[3arod13]

Clearly something personal is going on here in this war of words beteen two members, I assume there is some history there.

It seems to me there are collectors, and there are profiteers. Someone that scores an item at a below market price then immediately moves to flip it falls into the latter category in my book. So, if the Ripken is real then Dave scores a cool profit flipping it; if it is not, then he overpaid and will take a loss unless he moves it to someone else less discriminating. Accordingly, he has a significant interest in defending its legitimacy. At least one other person questions same, thus threatening the profiteering venture.

Is that about it?

What I find troublesome is when someone buys something believing it's authentic...finds out after they receive it's not...then turns around and sells it as authetic, when they now know it's not. I'm not saying in this case it happens, but we all know some people do.

Regards, Tony

[allstarsplus]

What was the quote from the movie that Jack Nicholson as Colonel Jessup made famous--You can't handle the truth!

Collecting gloves is as tough as it gets due to the extreme scarcity of the real glove. I thought I had purchased Moises Alou's glove used in the famous Bartman playoff game (Marlins vs. Cubs) and what I got was his backup glove.

When doing my research, I found a great article that discusses GLOVES.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/cs-030712baseballglove,0,46066.story?page=1

Cal Ripken played 21 seasons in the Majors. He didn't use many gloves. He has said on more than 1 occassion the status of his gloves. That glove is not the missing Kansas City glove. You would think that everyone would take Cal's word on it and move on. Cal is an honorable guy. The bigger question to me is whether it is a glove that was made for Cal which makes it rare. Bob Clevenhagen can certainly answer that. If it was made for Cal, than there is huge value in the glove. We all know that there were Ripken gloves with his name sewn on that Rawlings made for promotional and autograph purposes. You can buy a game model off of Ironclad's site now for $495 with an autograph and Gold Glove inscription!!!!
5958



So, if the Ripken is real then Dave scores a cool profit flipping it; if it is not, then he overpaid and will take a loss unless he moves it to someone else less discriminating. Accordingly, he has a significant interest in defending its legitimacy. At least one other person questions same, thus threatening the profiteering venture.

Is that about it? Nothing personal here, but there are several people questioning it. Brett has detailed many that claim they have the glove!

Look at Cal's real gloves and see the real oil patterns and use patterns and let that be your proof.

Andrew

[lund6771]

so typical...there will ALWAYS be at least one auction house that will take out the trash

[camarokids]

I am sure everyone remembers the supposed find of game used gloves at a used sporting goods store in California . Wasn't it determined the AROD glove was a promotional glove due to the period at the end of his name (where it is sewn in)??

Well wouldn't the same apply here w/ Ripkens gloves? If so . It would be an easy way to tell the difference between player issued and promo???

[mr.miracle]

I am sure everyone remembers the supposed find of game used gloves at a used sporting goods store in California . Wasn't it determined the AROD glove was a promotional glove due to the period at the end of his name (where it is sewn in)??

Well wouldn't the same apply here w/ Ripkens gloves? If so . It would be an easy way to tell the difference between player issued and promo???

My understanding from speaking with Bob Clevenhagen at Rawlings who made Cal's gloves throughout his career is that Cal's gloves were reproduced right down to the last stitch on the glove and in some cases are identical to his real gloves to the point that even Bob has a difficult time discerning the difference between the two. If the guy who made his gloves can't tell the difference then the general collecting public is going to be in for some trouble.

For whatever reason this identical gloves were shipped in mass quantities to Japan and used by either the Japenese league stars or up and coming people in their minor league system. These gloves have then made their way back into the US as Ripken game used gloves. My understanding is that there is not and never has been the distinguishing dot system in place at least not for the reproduced models. This is just one element of this whole ball of wax but unfortunately, it happens to have occured with Ripken game gloves which are already probably the most difficult find of any major star or hof player in the past 40 years to find.

[camarokids]

That does suck about the promo Ripken gloves being exactly as the real deal !

I feel very bad for the people who have spent thousands and now have to doubt what they own as legit .

For there is no reason not to believe what Cal says about keeping his gloves .

I would love to see the baseball collection Cal Ripken has ! If he saved almost all of his fielding gloves , He must have saved a lot of other stuff too! Then on top of that , I bet other players game him stuff or exchanges stuff ????

[Carlevv]

XPFO, if you go to the hotel i dont think you will get close to Derek. Go to a restraunt name Muse. Its where Derek, Posada and others go after the game. Its a bar/eatery and its pretty dead all the time. They have dinner there every night after the games in Toronto. Ill be there myself at muse on the night of the off day, and the following two nights. See ya there!

[sportscentury]

Just curious as to whether Heritage is auctioning the Ripken glove and, if so, would someone please provide me with the link to it (I cannot find it)?

Thank you.

[ironmanfan]

I did notice that they have pulled an image of it from their most recent auction preview advertisement in SCD...Hopefully they'll have a shred of character and not auction it...

[hblakewolf]

As an update to my previous post on this subject......

After speaking with Chris Ivie at Heritage, I understand that the glove in question was forwarded to Mr. Clevenhagen at Rawlings, in order to determine its authenticity, or lack of.

According to Chris, Mr. Clevenhagen has provided written confirmation that the glove was indeed made for Cal Ripken Jr. and shipped to him or his agent for his use on the field. Chris indicated he did not have the letter in front of him, however, provided the above summary. Likewise, he said it will be relisted for their upcoming auction, and Mr. Clevenhagen's information included.

This entire thread leaves me extremely confused. From the previous posts, one is led to believe that Dave O'Brien's glove is completely fake. Note, according to the posts, it was purchased off of Ebay as a game used glove, however, Victor at AMI would not include it in his auction, based upon glove expert Denny Eskin's opinion that it was not manufactured to Ripken's specifications, i.e, the interior lining was not correct. Dave indicated that he had since sent it to Clevenhagen, who confirmed it to be legit. After a second examination, Mr. Clevenhagen again has stated, in writing, that the glove is legit. No faults were noted.

It appears Dave O'Brien has done his homework, received written confirmation from Rawlings as to the authenticity, and is in receipt of a nice Ripken glove.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[allstarsplus]

As an update to my previous post on this subject......


It appears Dave O'Brien has done his homework, received written confirmation from Rawlings as to the authenticity, and is in receipt of a nice Ripken glove.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard - Thanks for the Post. That should define this glove in its worse case as "game issued" so congrats to Dave!

I for one still have doubts that Cal ever used it on the field of play due to the oil patterns, but the news is encouraging!

Andrew

[ripkengamers]

If someone could provide me Mr. Clevenhagen's contact information privately, I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks!

[allstarsplus]

If you go to HA.com you can now view the Ripken Glove on auction which is LIVE online.

Here is the link:

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658

Opening Bidhttp://sports.ha.com/common/images/Questionmark.gif: $3,000 ($3,585.00 w/Buyer's Premium (BP) http://sports.ha.com/common/images/Questionmark.gif)

HA made this a Platinum item. The description is very strong with no mention of any of the caveats mentioned on the this thread although the Clevenhagen COA seems to 100% state this was a real Ripken glove.

The question is whether the photos of the outside and inside of the glove are consistent with a Ripken "game used" and whether anyone believes Ripken's own statements about his own inventory of his gloves and the "missing" glove.

Description:

1990's Cal Ripken, Jr. Game Used Fielder's Glove. For the serious game used equipment collector, the fielder's glove is considered the ultimate prize. That love affair is born of the great scarcity of available models, and the tremendously personal aspect of them. While jerseys, caps, bats and batting gloves come and go, fielder's gloves tend to see action day after day, month after month without end, much like the man who once guarded the six hole with this special Rawlings. So we are thrilled to have the opportunity to place upon the auction block one of the few Cal Ripken, Jr. game used fielder's gloves to enter the hobby. A letter from Bob Clevenhagen, Rawlings' lead glove designer, states succinctly, "Upon receiving this glove [for review], I find that it is a glove I made for Cal Ripken, Jr. in the 90's. When this glove was made, it was either shipped straight to the player or a Rawlings representative would have hand delivered it to the player." So make no mistake--this is no mere store model. The specifics of the "PRO-6HF" place this glove upon the left hand of this newest Hall of Famer and no one else. Ripken's name is embroidered upon the exterior thumb in black thread, with a 10/10 black sharpie signature from the man himself at the ten o'clock position. Nice use is evident, with Ripken's trademark oiled palm in clear effect.

While Ripken will be remembered in baseball history first for his Streak, and second for his bat, one must remember that Cal may well have been the greatest infielder to wear an Orioles uniform since Brooks Robinson. Ripken's two Gold Gloves in the intensely competitive shortstop position date to the early 1990's, a period in which this glove may have seen action. A truly special piece worthy of Cooperstown, and the finest of private collections. LOA from Bob Clevenhagen. LOA from Joe Phillips. LOA from PSA/DNA (autograph). LOA from James Spence Authentication (autograph).</B> Guide Value or Estimate: $6,000 - $8,000.

[hblakewolf]

I'm still extremely confused.

When the glove was initially posted on this site, we learned that glove expert Denny Eskin did not give it a passsing grade, based upon the materials it was constructed with. Likewise, we were also led to believe that Bob Clevenger at Rawlings came to the same conclusion. Those familiar with game used gloves, and Ripken's equipment, voiced their concern, and indicated it would be removed from the Historic auction.

According to the current auction listing, not only did Clevenger indicate he made the glove for Ripken's use, he further notes that it was "shipped to Ripken or his rep". A letter from Clevenger is included, with an additional letter from glove expert Joe Phillips.

Can someone please explain what are we missing, here?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[cjclong]

I received the Heritage catalog and I'm confused also. In a recent article didn't Ripken indicate he had all but two of his gloves, one of which was stolen. If the article was accurate and this is a Ripken glove which of the two missing ones is it supposed to be?

[Carlevv]

Guys i have a question, do you really think Cal kept track of every glove Rawlings ever made for him? Did Brinks drop them off for Cal and he signed for them? No chance Cal can keep track of this. I worked in a major league clubhouse for many years and players would get tons of stuff shipped to them. Equipement guys would open boxes and take whatever they wanted before a player even knew he had gloves shipped to them. I know Cal said only two gloves that he knows of are missing but think of all the stuff Cal never even knew he had. Its the nature of working in the clubhouse that you can get whatever you want. Im not saying i ever took anything............ but it definitely happens in every clubhouse. Trust me.

[hblakewolf]

Guys i have a question, do you really think Cal kept track of every glove Rawlings ever made for him? Did Brinks drop them off for Cal and he signed for them? No chance Cal can keep track of this. I worked in a major league clubhouse for many years and players would get tons of stuff shipped to them. Equipement guys would open boxes and take whatever they wanted before a player even knew he had gloves shipped to them. I know Cal said only two gloves that he knows of are missing but think of all the stuff Cal never even knew he had. Its the nature of working in the clubhouse that you can get whatever you want. Im not saying i ever took anything............ but it definitely happens in every clubhouse. Trust me.


Carlevv-
I echo your post! Well said an how true

The Rawlings "Guru" Mr. Clevenhagen himself has endorsed the glove, as well as glove expert Joe Phillips, however, the doubters continue to call this glove fake. Why?



Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

Guys i have a question, do you really think Cal kept track of every glove Rawlings ever made for him? Did Brinks drop them off for Cal and he signed for them? No chance Cal can keep track of this. I worked in a major league clubhouse for many years and players would get tons of stuff shipped to them. Equipement guys would open boxes and take whatever they wanted before a player even knew he had gloves shipped to them. I know Cal said only two gloves that he knows of are missing but think of all the stuff Cal never even knew he had. Its the nature of working in the clubhouse that you can get whatever you want. Im not saying i ever took anything............ but it definitely happens in every clubhouse. Trust me.

ripken never said he has all but 2 of the gloves ever sent to him. he said he has all but 2 he ever used. i agree that he probably didn't keep track of all the stuff that was sent to him but the debate isn't whether this glove really was sent to him or not. it's whether he actually used it. a part of me thinks that while cal has no idea about all the stuff sent to him, he has a decent idea of the gloves he actually used.

i have no idea why esken rejected it but clevenhagen positively identified it.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

The Rawlings "Guru" Mr. Clevenhagen himself has endorsed the glove, as well as glove expert Joe Phillips, however, the doubters continue to call this glove fake. Why?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

hey howard

i thought the question was whether ripken USED it or not. clevenhagen only said he issued it to cal. i don't think there's any doubt that it was sent to ripken. it's a legit "game issued glove". however, it's not being sold simply as a "game issued" glove. clevenhagen would have no clue whatsoever as to whether ripken used it (unless ripken told him specifically). it's being sold as "game used" and given that ripken has said he has all but 2 of his game-used gloves, it presents a bit of a problem.

rudy.

[sportscentury]

Guys,

I've been trying to follow this thread. When Dave first won the glove, I thought it was good and that he had snagged a great piece at an incredible price. I really have little idea as to what the truth is at this point. But, it does seem clear that there are several critical questions that have yet to be fully answered.

First, as I understand it, Denny Esken evaluated the glove and said it is not authentic because it has the wrong lining. One question is: Does Denny's evaluation that the glove is not authentic mean that it is not even a real game issued Ripken glove because it has the wrong lining? Or, does Denny's evaluation that it is not authentic mean that it was not game used by Ripken because, although the glove may have been made for Cal, Cal would never have used it because it has the wrong lining? This, I believe, is an important distinction. Perhaps Dave has a real Ripken game issued (but not game worn) glove - - and, to take it a step further, perhaps Ripken did use it briefly to try out a glove with the unusual lining. Denny's knowledge of such things is incomparable, in my opinion, so clarifying the game issued/game used ambiguity would seem to be essential.

Second, I've never heard of anyone ignoring Esken's evaluation of a glove in light of a different evaluation provided by Clevenhagen or any other glove authenticator. It seems clear that Heritage knew of Esken's rejection of the glove. Was Clevenhagen ever notified of Esken's evaluation? If not, why didn't anyone (including Heritage) inform him? If so, did Clevenhagen discuss the glove with Esken? I would think that Clevenhagen would discuss the glove with Esken if he was asked to evaluate a glove that he knew Esken had rejected (although maybe this is a bad assumption). My understanding is that these guys have known each other for a long time.

Third, does Clevenhagen's letter mention that Esken rejected the glove? If so, does it state how and why Clevenhagen came to a different conclusion? If not, does Heritage (who clearly is aware of Esken's evaluation) include this information as part of full disclosure in the auction description? Certainly, there must be an ethical duty to include this information on Heritage's part, no? I would hate to think that this is a case of shopping around until you find an "authenticator" who will pass the item in question. [As an aside, I never realized Clevenhagen authenticated gloves until this Ripken glove appeared in Heritage Auctions - at least I've never before seen a Clevenhagen authentication letter.]

Answers to these questions may be very helpful.

Reid

[CollectGU]

Reid,

Bob knew Denny's opinion on the glove about the lining and came to his own conclusion after inspecting it. Bob made the gloves for Rawlings at that time and said the lining and everything else about the glove was correct and if the guy making them says this why is there a need for any further disclosure?

Regards,
Dave

[sportscentury]

To Dave:

You stand to make a lot on the glove, and I realize that adding the information I suggested may get in the way of this. So while I appreciate your assessment that it is not ethically necessary to provide full disclosure, I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out your obvious conflict of interest. If Heritage does not want to fully disclose the expert evaluations of the glove, then good for them and good for you. I was just raising what I thought was a clear ethical issue for folks to consider. Clearly, Heritage and you are 100% satisfied with the opinions of Clevenhagen and Philips, and that is up to your personal preference. Others may not be so easily satisfied, though.

To everyone:

After my last post, I got an email from Denny Esken asking me to call him. I hadn't talked to Denny in several months, mostly because I don't collect all that much any longer and Denny and I have had less to discuss. But it was good to talk with him. He wanted to clarify some of the issues that folks have raised in this thread. What I am about to state is based on statements of fact that Denny shared with me. Denny stated that:

1) The glove was made to Ripken's specifications but it is unlikely that Ripken ever saw it.

2) The glove can only be from 1999 because it (a) has four dots, (b) has the traditional Rawlings label (circle R) without the registration mark, (c) has the deer-tan cowhide with butterscotch lining (which Ripken found to be too soft and did not like), and (d) has the late 1990s embroidery font. Denny said that this is not his opinion, but rather a fact, based on this combination of factors.

3) He rejected the glove because (a) he has seen many of these from 1999 and doesn't believe that Ripken used any of them, never mind most or all of them, and (b) it doesn't have any of the typical signs of Ripken's game use (specifically, the web is very tight, the pocket has grease and not traditional oil, and overall game use is not typical of Ripken's game used gloves).

According to Denny, he has shared all of this information with several of the parties mentioned in this thread. He asked me to post this information to clear things up, and in the interest of providing this information to GUF readers (and in the interest of doing Denny a favor, as he has been great to me and many other collectors over the years), I told him that I would oblige.

Please understand that I am not a glove expert by any means, but am only passing along this information. I know that there are people who will find this post helpful, and others who will attack the contents of the post. Please excuse me if I refrain from getting into arguments and debates about this glove as I have no interest in doing so. Forum moderators can contact Denny to confirm his evaluation if they like.

Best,
Reid

[CollectGU]

To Dave:

To everyone:

1) The glove was made to Ripken's specifications but it is unlikely that Ripken ever saw it.

2) The glove can only be from 1999 because it (a) has four dots, (b) has the traditional Rawlings label (circle R) without the registration mark, (c) has the deer-tan cowhide with butterscotch lining (which Ripken found to be too soft and did not like), and (d) has the late 1990s embroidery font. Denny said that this is not his opinion, but rather a fact, based on this combination of factors.

3) He rejected the glove because (a) he has seen many of these from 1999 and doesn't believe that Ripken used any of them, never mind most or all of them, and (b) it doesn't have any of the typical signs of Ripken's game use (specifically, the web is very tight, the pocket has grease and not traditional oil, and overall game use is not typical of Ripken's game used gloves).


Best,
Reid

Reid,

Denny never had this glove in his hands physically. He gave his opinion over the phone. He never touched this glove, so I don't understand how he can ascertain that it is grease and not traditional oil and that the web is very tight...

Regards,
Dave

[allstarsplus]

Reid,

Bob knew Denny's opinion on the glove about the lining and came to his own conclusion after inspecting it. Bob made the gloves for Rawlings at that time and said the lining and everything else about the glove was correct and if the guy making them says this why is there a need for any further disclosure?

Regards,
Dave

I think Dave has done excellent due dilligence and he purchased the glove in the shape it is in.

I think the Clevenhagen letter should be enough to say it is at the least "game issued".

The only question I believe is whether Cal put the oil on the glove and can it be photomatched.

I am not a glove expert, but the outside of the glove looks clean---maybe too clean and the inside has the one area of oil and the webbing is clean with little wear on the leather. The leather looks stiff but maybe that is just the pictures.

You be the judge:

6570

6571

[sportscentury]

Dave,

If what you say is true, then you should ask Denny this question directly, although he told me that he already explained all of the issues with the glove to you on the phone. I'm not sure how well you know Denny or how familiar you are with the depth of his expertise, but I imagine that there is a lot that Denny can tell from photos (he has provided me with amazingly detailed, completely correct evaluations of gloves based solely on scans/photos in the past).

Best,
Reid

[RobSteinmetz]

For what it's worth, I was with Denny at this year's National in Cleveland and I did see him examine the glove at Heritage's booth. Perhaps that is where he was able to get a good enough look to ascertain that the glove had grease in the palm and not oil (and a tight web). On a side note, I've always been amazed at Denny's ability to rattle off characteristics of game used gloves over the phone that he can't see (that I'm holding in my hand) from memory. Often times, he describes the entire glove to me before I even have a chance to open my mouth. I think that comes from a combination of a near photographic memory and a lifetime of studying game used gloves like no one else on earth. He's the man.

Best,

Rob

[allstarsplus]

he was able to get a good enough look to ascertain that the glove had grease in the palm and not oil (and a tight web).

Grease????? This is getting more bizarre by the minute.

Here is what Heritage states on their website:

Heritage Auction Galleries: Our Mission ...
To be the world's most trusted and efficient marketplace and information resource serving owners of fine art, collectibles, and other objects of enduring value.


Our Values ...
Integrity — Honesty and fairness must define every facet of our business.
Transparency — We embrace clarity and freedom of information, so that our clients, partners and coworkers can make informed, confident decisions.
Teamwork — We collaborate with coworkers on important tasks and projects, and freely share credit for our successes among all who contribute their efforts and ideas.
Respect — We foster a culture of mutual respect for each other, our business partners and our clients.
Efficiency — As tangible demonstration of that respect, we seek every opportunity to help our clients, partners and coworkers save valuable time and resources.
Passion — We know that through our focus and dedication, Heritage's services, products and innovations will someday enrich the lives of millions of people, both financially and psychologically.
Excellence — We understand our assignments and goals, and deliver them accurately, on time, within budget, and exceeding expectations, while setting the bar ever higher to accelerate improvement.
Expertise — We cherish knowledge and never stop studying and learning, because our success depends upon providing the best possible advice to our clients.
Innovation — We continually invent ways to make our services and products more accessible and useful to clients, even when we render our successful products obsolete by creating better ones.
Flexibility — We are creative and flexible when helping clients, coworkers and partners address unusual problems and needs.
Client-First Mentality — We create positive experiences for every internal and external client we serve.
Inclusion — We champion the value of each individual's knowledge, skills, abilities and ideas.
Long-Term Perspective — We strive to make careful decisions and win-win agreements with clients and partners, knowing that any sustainable relationship must benefit all of its participants.

[Carlevv]

Wow you guys are putting in some work on this one. Great stuff all around.

[ChrisCavalier]

1) The glove was made to Ripken's specifications but it is unlikely that Ripken ever saw it.

3) He rejected the glove because (a) he has seen many of these from 1999 and doesn't believe that Ripken used any of them, never mind most or all of them, and (b) it doesn't have any of the typical signs of Ripken's game use (specifically, the web is very tight, the pocket has grease and not traditional oil, and overall game use is not typical of Ripken's game used gloves).

According to Denny, he has shared all of this information with several of the parties mentioned in this thread. He asked me to post this information to clear things up, and in the interest of providing this information to GUF readers (and in the interest of doing Denny a favor, as he has been great to me and many other collectors over the years), I told him that I would oblige.
Hello Reid,

I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to post this information for collectors to consider. I think those that know Denny, myself included, view him as the leading authority on game used gloves. However, at the end of the day, people will have to make up their own minds about the item in question.

Thanks again for sharing this information. I will also say that I do believe, given Denny's proven expertise, if Denny rejected the glove, and did not think it is game used, that is pertinent information that should be disclosed to potential bidders.

Sincerely,
Chris

[sportscentury]

Chris,

I believe you're correct. Not only do Rob, you, and I know that Denny is the man, but a fellow GUF reader reminded me of this informative post by Joe Phillips himself (from the old Game Used Forum), which echoes a similar sentiment. I have provided the link so that GUF readers can verify the accuracy of what I have pasted below (and I have highlighted what I consider to be some important passages):

http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1122499840/ (http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1122499840/)

______________________________________
thanks for your inquiry

July 27 2005 at 5:30 PMJoe Phillips (glovecol@earthlink.net) (Login glovecollector (http://www.network54.com/Profile/glovecollector))
Response to Original Topic (http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/message/1122475908/Original+Topic)

My specialty of interest has been in store issued gloves and that's where most of our Glove Collector Newsletter is focused, though we do carry articles on the players and their gloves and game used gloves from time. My little glove collection is very humble. Only one gamer and that's an old coacher of Harry Craft that I lucked into. As a Reds fan I've put together a pretty decent collection of store Reds player models, plus just a lot of gloves that I like to play catch with.

I've been fortunate to have seen and handled gamer gloves from Gehrig to Griffey Jr. My information on these is very limited. I'm better with the older gloves than the more modern ones. Denny Esken is the man on the game gloves of the past 50 years. Bob Clevenhagen at Rawlings now covers a regular Q&A column on Rawlings gloves in our Newsletter and Bob will also be glad to help you out as well on Rawlings gloves. Any time you would like to see a copy of our newsletter or any of our stuff, I'll be glad to help out.

My email accompanies this post so contact me that way if you desire.

Thanks again...Joe
_____________________________________

I was happy to be reminded that Joe Phillips shares in our respect for Denny's knowledge and expertise. Chris, as always, thanks to Eric and you (and other moderators) for providing this forum for discussion.

Best,
Reid

[sportscentury]

Forum readers,

Tonight I received scans of the letters of authenticity from Bob Clevenhagen and Joe Phillips for the Ripken "game used" glove currently offerd by Heritage. These letters raise a handful of questions, but perhaps most confusing is that neither letter states that the glove is game used or game worn. In fact, neither letter makes any mention of game use or game wear. So, how is it that Heritage states in the title and listing that this was Ripken's game used glove (see the Heritage auction at http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658)?

Here are the scans of the LOAs:

[cjclong]

If anyone had a way to contact Cal Ripken he could probably answer the question and settle the matter one way or the other. Has anyone tried?

[CollectGU]

Forum readers,

Tonight I received scans of the letters of authenticity from Bob Clevenhagen and Joe Phillips for the Ripken "game used" glove currently offerd by Heritage. These letters raise a handful of questions, but perhaps most confusing is that neither letter states that the glove is game used or game worn. In fact, neither letter makes any mention of game use or game wear. So, how is it that Heritage states in the title and listing that this was Ripken's game used glove (see the Heritage auction at http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658)?

Here are the scans of the LOAs:

Reid it shows signs of definite game use so maybe they should call it a game issued Ripken glove showing signs of game use? Is that sufficient for you? It is then up to individuals who are interested in purchasing to decide their comfort level.

Regards,
Dave

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers,

Tonight I received scans of the letters of authenticity from Bob Clevenhagen and Joe Phillips for the Ripken "game used" glove currently offerd by Heritage. These letters raise a handful of questions, but perhaps most confusing is that neither letter states that the glove is game used or game worn. In fact, neither letter makes any mention of game use or game wear. So, how is it that Heritage states in the title and listing that this was Ripken's game used glove (see the Heritage auction at http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658)?

Here are the scans of the LOAs:

Reid-
After reading both letters, I'm having a difficult time understanding a few issues:

1. Why is it that Denny Eskin can pinpoint the glove to a specific year, however, Clevenhagen and Phillips make no mention, rather, it's from the "1990's"???? Does it seem odd that the man in charge of Rawlings professional glove manufacturing can't even determine when the glove was manufactured? Rawlings gloves, including this glove, have a date code. If the year can't be determined by Clevenhagen, how much credibility can this letter, or his opinion hold? Phillips summary of Clevenhagens LOA, in my opinion, is worthless. He provides no insight to the glove, rather, just a summary of Clevenhagen's findings. As noted on another post, Phillps expertise is retail gloves, not game used pro gloves. From the information provided in his LOA, I suggest he continue his focus on the retail products.

2. Although neither LOA makes mention of it being game used by Ripken (or as Phillips notes, Ripkan), Heritage is offering it as game used? Eskin has been extremely clear that the "use characteristics" are not consistent with Ripken's game traits.

3. Is it possible to have Eskin comment on this glove via a post or an email to another GUU reader that can possibly put these various issues to rest?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[sportscentury]

Reid it shows signs of definite game use so maybe they should call it a game issued Ripken glove showing signs of game use? Is that sufficient for you? It is then up to individuals who are interested in purchasing to decide their comfort level.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Opinions from THREE experts have been sought (only one is truly an expert in my and many other people's opinion: Denny Esken). Esken told you and many others (myself included) point blank that it is highly unlikely that Ripken used the glove. Clevenhagen and Phillips very carefully worded their letters and clearly declined to even mention any possibility of game use. You say that the glove "shows signs of definite game use" and you are certainly entitled to your opinion (though the conflict of interest is obvious). What I am trying to understand is why Heritage is so insistent in their assertion that this is a Ripken game used glove when, despite your/their incredible efforts, there is no "expert" who has been willing to support such a claim.

Chris Ivy from Heritage is a member of Game Used Universe and I am surprised that he has not commented here. I know that he has commented on GUF in the past. Chris, can you help us to understand how, in light of all of the expert opinions, you remain so confident that the glove was used by Ripken?

Reid

[3arod13]

If anyone had a way to contact Cal Ripken he could probably answer the question and settle the matter one way or the other. Has anyone tried?

If you all recall the issue with the Arod gloves that were purchased at a sportings good store and were questioned about their authenticity, the owner contacted the media, the yankees, etc., and the issue was addressed by many.

I believe in this case, the Baltimore Orioles should be contact about this matter and see if they can verify the authenticity through Cal Ripken Jr.

With the amount of money involved, and the glove being questioned as authentic, I don't see them not wanting to help.

This would put an end to this thread.

Regards, Tony

[hblakewolf]

If you all recall the issue with the Arod gloves that were purchased at a sportings good store and were questioned about their authenticity, the owner contacted the media, the yankees, etc., and the issue was addressed by many.

I believe in this case, the Baltimore Orioles should be contact about this matter and see if they can verify the authenticity through Cal Ripken Jr.

With the amount of money involved, and the glove being questioned as authentic, I don't see them not wanting to help.

This would put an end to this thread.

Regards, Tony

Tony-

In a perfect world, the Orioles would be willing to assist you and may even try to get Ripken himself, involved. In this case, however, do you honestly believe the Orioles have any interest, or anything to gain by getting involved?

Denny Eskin has voiced his concern about this glove, based on his vast knowledge and experience with game used gloves, and game used Ripken gloves. Based in his rejection that Ripken used this glove, combined with issues relating to the actual materials used in the construction, it's pretty clear that this is not a glove used by the great Cal Ripken Jr.

At this point, what more could one ask to Cal, the Orioles, Clevenhagen or Eskin?

Howard wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[3arod13]

Tony-

In a perfect world, the Orioles would be willing to assist you and may even try to get Ripken himself, involved. In this case, however, do you honestly believe the Orioles have any interest, or anything to gain by getting involved?

Denny Eskin has voiced his concern about this glove, based on his vast knowledge and experience with game used gloves, and game used Ripken gloves. Based in his rejection that Ripken used this glove, combined with issues relating to the actual materials used in the construction, it's pretty clear that this is not a glove used by the great Cal Ripken Jr.

At this point, what more could one ask to Cal, the Orioles, Clevenhagen or Eskin?

Howard wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard,

Just curious, do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments.

Yes, I like to believe that people are willing to help without having to gain from it.

Contacting the Orioles and getting it straight from Cal himself would be better than anyone else's opinion, no matter who they are. I have talked to Denny numerous times and am aware of his knowledge. My point was, this will continue to go on and on. With that said, coming from Cal Jr. would end this...period.

Yes, this would be a good thing to do and/or attempt.

Regards, Tony

[CollectGU]

Tony-


. Based in his rejection that Ripken used this glove, combined with issues relating to the actual materials used in the construction, it's pretty clear that this is not a glove used by the great Cal Ripken Jr.

At this point, what more could one ask to Cal, the Orioles, Clevenhagen or Eskin?

Howard wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard,

There are no problems or issues with the construction or lining of the glove as per the guy that made the glove, so this is an incorrect and unfair statement.

[lund6771]

I agree with Tony that is at LEAST worth the attempt...

some of the best team contacts I ever established came about EXACTLY by this course...so why not try...what do you have to lose?

The people that really should be making this attempt are the consignor and the auction house...it seems like they will attempt to keep a closed eye from all theses facts, hoping that it wil sell and also not end up in an article in the New Yoor papers

Dave with your strong ties to AMI, can you explain why the glove was not consigned in their auction?...is it by chance that he glove was declined by Denny, so Victor didnt want to run it?..and as a result you dumped it off at the next willing auction house?

[sportscentury]

Howard,

Just curious, do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments.

Regards, Tony

Tony,

I appreciate all of your posts, and all of the positive contributions that you've made to GUF. But I must ask: Is there really a need to make a personal attack on Howard? And to do so in such a completely baseless manner? Honestly, it's irresponsibe, if not downright silly. Do you have any idea how many people Howard has publicly helped with Phillies, Mariners, Orioles, Trailblazers, etc., etc., items on GUF? And how many times has Howard been quick to hop on here and provide good words in support of a dealer or collector (as recently as a few days ago when he praised Joe Esposito of B&E Collectibles). I understand that you are upset that Howard believes that your suggestion is unrealistic, but let's be reasonable (and civil).

As for your suggestion, I, for one, would love it if Ripken himself were to comment on this glove. However, I don't believe that this would resolve all issues (for example, the issue of how Heritage has repeatedly asserted that the glove is a Ripken game used glove in light of all of the expert opinions that do not support this claim; certainly, this issue cannot be resolved by Cal Ripken Jr., as it has nothing to do with him). But, again, I'm all for Ripken commenting on this glove (if someone actually has the know-how and power to make this happen).

It would also be helpful if Chris Ivy would comment. Again, I am surprised that he has not offered an explanation.

Best,

Reid

[hblakewolf]

Howard,

Just curious, do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments.

Yes, I like to believe that people are willing to help without having to gain from it.

Contacting the Orioles and getting it straight from Cal himself would be better than anyone else's opinion, no matter who they are. I have talked to Denny numerous times and am aware of his knowledge. My point was, this will continue to go on and on. With that said, coming from Cal Jr. would end this...period.

Yes, this would be a good thing to do and/or attempt.

Regards, Tony

Tony-

Let me address your post:

do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments

I make quite a few "positive" posts on this Forum, and often provide insight and assistance to fellow collectors on an array of subjects, i.e, tagging, patches, etc. I'm not sure if I "pounce" on people, rather, point out incorrect information posted in error and related.

Contacting the Orioles and getting it straight from Cal himself would be better than anyone else's opinion, no matter who they are. Yes, this would be a good thing to do and/or attempt

Tony, that's a grand idea! Since you surfaced this, please advise what success you have once you make the calls or emails to Cal and the Orioles.

I look forward to your update on this issue.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[3arod13]

Tony,

I appreciate all of your posts, and all of the positive contributions that you've made to GUF. But I must ask: Is there really a need to make a personal attack on Howard? And to do so in such a completely baseless manner? Honestly, it's irresponsibe, if not downright silly. Do you have any idea how many people Howard has publicly helped with Phillies, Mariners, Orioles, Trailblazers, etc., etc., items on GUF? And how many times has Howard been quick to hop on here and provide good words in support of a dealer or collector (as recently as a few days ago when he praised Joe Esposito of B&E Collectibles). I understand that you are upset that Howard believes that your suggestion is unrealistic, but let's be reasonable (and civil).

As for your suggestion, I, for one, would love it if Ripken himself were to comment on this glove. However, I don't believe that this would resolve all issues (for example, the issue of how Heritage has repeatedly asserted that the glove is a Ripken game used glove in light of all of the expert opinions that do not support this claim; certainly, this issue cannot be resolved by Cal Ripken Jr., as it has nothing to do with him). But, again, I'm all for Ripken commenting on this glove (if someone actually has the know-how and power to make this happen).

It would also be helpful if Chris Ivy would comment. Again, I am surprised that he has not offered an explanation.

Best,

Reid

Reid,

It doesn't bother me at all whether Howard agrees or disagrees with my comments. That's not an issue at all.

To say that it wouldn't do any good to contact the Orioles for help because they wouldn't have an interest it in, or to say Cal Jr. can't offer and or say anything more than what others has said, to me is negative and actually not true. I've done this many times, and teams and players were willing to help. From what I know, Cal Ripken Jr. is a great guy and if he was aware of all this, I'm sure he would help.

You're correct in that I didn't need to be so direct in my statement. However, I have made posts and/or responded to posts and he has made comments that I felt were harsh and rude. I could go back to earlier posts where I even stated that in the past.

Sometimes, just like with email, it's difficult to tell attitude and tone.

No harm intended.

Regards, Tony

[mr.miracle]

Howard,

Just curious, do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments.

Yes, I like to believe that people are willing to help without having to gain from it.

Contacting the Orioles and getting it straight from Cal himself would be better than anyone else's opinion, no matter who they are. I have talked to Denny numerous times and am aware of his knowledge. My point was, this will continue to go on and on. With that said, coming from Cal Jr. would end this...period.

Yes, this would be a good thing to do and/or attempt.

Regards, Tony


If anyone is able to contact the Orioles and is sucssesful at accomplishing anything please let us know. I do happen to have Asst. VP of Operations Jim Duquette's cell phone number and have talked to him on several occassions but he was not with the team when Cal was there. He could perhaps point me to someone who was however I am going to try to contact someone I know who was an Orioles bat boy and club house attendant during Cal's final season's in Baltimore. Maybe if he takes a look at the glove he will have an idea since he is very well versed in Cal's game used bats. I will let everyone know if and when I find out anything.

[3arod13]

Tony-

Let me address your post:

do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments

I make quite a few "positive" posts on this Forum, and often provide insight and assistance to fellow collectors on an array of subjects, i.e, tagging, patches, etc. I'm not sure if I "pounce" on people, rather, point out incorrect information posted in error and related.

Contacting the Orioles and getting it straight from Cal himself would be better than anyone else's opinion, no matter who they are. Yes, this would be a good thing to do and/or attempt

Tony, that's a grand idea! Since you surfaced this, please advise what success you have once you make the calls or emails to Cal and the Orioles.

I look forward to your update on this issue.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard,

Not my place to make that call. It's not my glove. However, if the owner makes the effort, I'm sure it will be successful.

I realize you provide many positives to this forum, however, you do at times come across harsh.

Nothing personal. Just didn't see anything positive you were adding with your response. Mainly negative, that's all.

I do take back "do you ever have anything positive to say than just pounce on people with your negative comments." Meant only on occassion.

Don't want a war of words. With that said,

Regards, Tony

[allstarsplus]

Last week I contacted a key person within Cal's organization and got this message:

Unfortunately, with Cal working the NLCS for TBS and his preparation for his China trip at the end of the month, I don't anticipate myself speaking with him before this particular auction concludes.

The email then gave this gentleman's opinion which was insightful. I asked if I could Post the email on the Forum and got this email:

Good Morning Andrew:

Since the information I provided was more of a result of my own personal knowledge and has little or nothing to do with the work I do at XXXXXXXXXX, I don't want anyone to incorrectly assume that it's their (or Ripken Baseball's) position as well.

If you found any passage in my previous email that you found useful, let me know & perhaps I'll just add it to the thread under my name.

Thanks for asking, XXXXXXXX

[sportscentury]

Dave with your strong ties to AMI, can you explain why the glove was not consigned in their auction?...is it by chance that he glove was declined by Denny, so Victor didnt want to run it?..and as a result you dumped it off at the next willing auction house?

Lund,

I don't know if Dave will answer your questions, though I would be interested in his responses. I can tell you that, unless AMI wanted to use a different glove "expert" (as Heritage has chosen to do) or use no glove authenticator at all, they would not be able to list the Ripken glove in any capacity. The reason? Denny flat-out rejected it. He is adamant that Ripken never used it, and he believes that it is highly unlikely that it ever even made it to Ripken for him to look at. I don't know how decision making at AMI is done (in fact, it has perplexed me for years), but I know that Denny rejects a lot of gloves that are submitted to AMI, and I believe that AMI, based on these rejections, simply refuses to list them (which is to their credit). Folks here know that I would never again do business with AMI, for a multitude of reasons, but I have always acknowledged their strength in the glove authentication department (i.e., Denny). AMI knows that if Denny says a glove is not good (and Denny rejects a lot of bad gloves), then it needs to be sent back to the consignor. If I am wrong about this, someone from the AMI inner circle is welcome to correct me, but this is my confident belief based on my conversations with Denny.

Best,
Reid

[mvandor]

Great debate. So, is this it in a nutshell:

- Maker of glove confirms it IS one he made for Cal (perhaps qualifying it as game issue)

- Most reputable expert on game used gloves gave it a thumbs down as a Cal game used glove as it lacked use characteristics of game used Cal gloves.

- Cal himself in interviews claims all or nearly all of his game used gloves (of which there were few) remain in his possession or the HOF's.

That about it, or did I miss an episode? :o

[kingjammy24]

it essentially seems to be boiling down to a clevenhagen vs. esken issue. if clevenhagen is correct, then the glove is at a minimum, a legit game-issued glove that was specifically intended to be given to ripken for game use. if esken is correct, then the glove is not even a game-issue or ripken-spec model. given that i've never spoken to either, it's difficult to know whose opinion carries more weight. on one hand, clevenhagen made the thing. i'm not sure how you improve on that. of course, this entirely depends on clevenhagen having an excellent memory and being an upstanding, diligent, detail-driven guy. if he is, then i really fail to see how his opinion doesn't trump eskens'. clevenhagen is the one who personally speaks directly to ripken about his gloves. he's the one who gets all of the details from the players first hand. he's the one who knows what's going on in the rawlings glove dept. in other words, all of clevenhagen's knowledge is first-hand. it isn't derived from interpreting things, second-hand knowledge, data, etc. let's say, hypothetically, that esken said the lining is "wrong". does that conclusively mean it's bad or could it be that on that particular glove ripken called clevenhagen and told him he wanted to try a new lining or clevenhagen ran out of a certain material on that day and just substituted it with a comparable material. would esken have been privy to any of that? was esken privy to the private conversations between ripken and clevenhagen? does esken know that, if indeed the lining is wrong, that the substitution wasn't intentionally done by clevenhagen?

of course, if on the other hand clevenhagen is absent-minded, careless, and forgetful, then i can see why his opinion wouldn't carry weight even if he did make it. i don't know clevenhagen so i don't know how much weight his opinion carries. either he's more knowledgeable than esken given that he personally discusses these gloves with the players and he, not esken, knows exactly what goes on every single day in that room at rawlings. or, depending on his personality traits, he can barely be depended on for even the most basic of glove info.

reid's said that "only one is truly an expert in my and many other people's opinion: Denny Esken". reid, you must have some inside knowledge about clevenhagen to have excluded him from your list of "true experts". i'm curious, what is it about clevenhagen that prevents him from being a "true expert" on the gloves he makes?

"Heritage has repeatedly asserted that the glove is a Ripken game used glove in light of all of the expert opinions that do not support this claim"

simply because clevenhagen refrained from commenting on possible game use shouldn't be interpreted as an opinion from him on the matter either way. he didn't support the claim but he also didn't deny it. in fact, the letter simply never addressed it. to further assume the reasons why clevenhagen didn't address the issue of game use is nothing but conjecture.

for the most part, when things are called "game used" it's simply a matter of the specs matching up and use being evident. clevenhagen says the specs match up. anyone can see there's use. whether it's legit use or contrived is apparently an issue. regardless, i'm guessing that's why heritage is calling it game used. whether the specs match up or not is really a question that only clevenhagen can answer. i don't believe esken can say because, as i said, he has no idea if ripken called up clevenhagen and asked him for some modifications. has esken discussed this particular glove with ripken? maybe the glove doesn't match up to ripken's typical gamers (although if ripken himself claims he has all of his gloves except 2, i'd be curious to know how esken became so intimately familiar with ripken's gloves), but it isn't rare for players to request small changes. it's difficult to believe that esken has been privy to all of the changes that players have discussed with clevenhagen. if ripken calls up clevenhagen and asks for a "hot pink fun fur" inside lining, does esken know about that? or does he automatically assume the glove with the pink fun fur lining is wrong?

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Lund,

I don't know if Dave will answer your questions, though I would be interested in his responses. I can tell you that, unless AMI wanted to use a different glove "expert" (as Heritage has chosen to do) or use no glove authenticator at all, they would not be able to list the Ripken glove in any capacity. The reason? Denny flat-out rejected it. He is adamant that Ripken never used it, and he believes that it is highly unlikely that it ever even made it to Ripken for him to look at. I don't know how decision making at AMI is done (in fact, it has perplexed me for years), but I know that Denny rejects a lot of gloves that are submitted to AMI, and I believe that AMI, based on these rejections, simply refuses to list them (which is to their credit). Folks here know that I would never again do business with AMI, for a multitude of reasons, but I have always acknowledged their strength in the glove authentication department (i.e., Denny). AMI knows that if Denny says a glove is not good (and Denny rejects a lot of bad gloves), then it needs to be sent back to the consignor. If I am wrong about this, someone from the AMI inner circle is welcome to correct me, but this is my confident belief based on my conversations with Denny.

Best,
Reid

Reid,

I chose not to put AMI in an uncomfortable position by asking them to run with a Celevenhagen letter since Denny didn't like it, and that's who they use. I don't know if they would or wouldn't run with it because I never asked...I instead chose to use the auction house that uses Clevenhagen and has done so in the past. Isn't this getting a bit monotonous with you everyday explaining that Denny doesn't like it, you value his opinion, you don't value you Clevenhagen's blah..blah..blahh...We understand where you stand, can we move on from the broken record yet...

[camarokids]

The glove has been listed on ebay , link below..........

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28270&viewitem=&item=170159249676&_trksid=p3907.m29

[TNTtoys]

The glove has been listed on ebay , link below..........

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28270&viewitem=&item=170159249676&_trksid=p3907.m29

HA is just broadening their channels for their high end items... listing on ebay as well as their own auction site means more potential bidders -- it is common practice with them.

[ripkengamers]

The glove has been listed on ebay , link below..........

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=28270&viewitem=&item=170159249676&_trksid=p3907.m29

Did anyone take a gander at the buyer premium !!!!

22.5% :eek:

[CollectGU]

it essentially seems to be boiling down to a clevenhagen vs. esken issue. if clevenhagen is correct, then the glove is at a minimum, a legit game-issued glove that was specifically intended to be given to ripken for game use. if esken is correct, then the glove is not even a game-issue or ripken-spec model. given that i've never spoken to either, it's difficult to know whose opinion carries more weight. on one hand, clevenhagen made the thing. i'm not sure how you improve on that. of course, this entirely depends on clevenhagen having an excellent memory and being an upstanding, diligent, detail-driven guy. if he is, then i really fail to see how his opinion doesn't trump eskens'. clevenhagen is the one who personally speaks directly to ripken about his gloves. he's the one who gets all of the details from the players first hand. he's the one who knows what's going on in the rawlings glove dept. in other words, all of clevenhagen's knowledge is first-hand. it isn't derived from interpreting things, second-hand knowledge, data, etc. let's say, hypothetically, that esken said the lining is "wrong". does that conclusively mean it's bad or could it be that on that particular glove ripken called clevenhagen and told him he wanted to try a new lining or clevenhagen ran out of a certain material on that day and just substituted it with a comparable material. would esken have been privy to any of that? was esken privy to the private conversations between ripken and clevenhagen? does esken know that, if indeed the lining is wrong, that the substitution wasn't intentionally done by clevenhagen?

of course, if on the other hand clevenhagen is absent-minded, careless, and forgetful, then i can see why his opinion wouldn't carry weight even if he did make it. i don't know clevenhagen so i don't know how much weight his opinion carries. either he's more knowledgeable than esken given that he personally discusses these gloves with the players and he, not esken, knows exactly what goes on every single day in that room at rawlings. or, depending on his personality traits, he can barely be depended on for even the most basic of glove info.

reid's said that "only one is truly an expert in my and many other people's opinion: Denny Esken". reid, you must have some inside knowledge about clevenhagen to have excluded him from your list of "true experts". i'm curious, what is it about clevenhagen that prevents him from being a "true expert" on the gloves he makes?

"Heritage has repeatedly asserted that the glove is a Ripken game used glove in light of all of the expert opinions that do not support this claim"

simply because clevenhagen refrained from commenting on possible game use shouldn't be interpreted as an opinion from him on the matter either way. he didn't support the claim but he also didn't deny it. in fact, the letter simply never addressed it. to further assume the reasons why clevenhagen didn't address the issue of game use is nothing but conjecture.

for the most part, when things are called "game used" it's simply a matter of the specs matching up and use being evident. clevenhagen says the specs match up. anyone can see there's use. whether it's legit use or contrived is apparently an issue. regardless, i'm guessing that's why heritage is calling it game used. whether the specs match up or not is really a question that only clevenhagen can answer. i don't believe esken can say because, as i said, he has no idea if ripken called up clevenhagen and asked him for some modifications. has esken discussed this particular glove with ripken? maybe the glove doesn't match up to ripken's typical gamers (although if ripken himself claims he has all of his gloves except 2, i'd be curious to know how esken became so intimately familiar with ripken's gloves), but it isn't rare for players to request small changes. it's difficult to believe that esken has been privy to all of the changes that players have discussed with clevenhagen. if ripken calls up clevenhagen and asks for a "hot pink fun fur" inside lining, does esken know about that? or does he automatically assume the glove with the pink fun fur lining is wrong?

rudy.

Rudy,

I think that this was the most objective post so far.

[CollectGU]

Dave,

Two of your posts have already been edited in this thread (one of them was completely removed) for ONCE AGAIN violating GUF rules. Clearly, you have no respect for this forum, its members, or its moderators.

Try as you might, though, this thread will not be derailed onto another topic. It will remain on topic: the Ripken glove sham. It is not a matter of one authenticator versus another. NO authenticator that Heritage or you can find will say that this glove was game used by Ripken, yet Heritage continues to say that it is Ripken's game used glove. Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. Your responses are bordering on desparation at this point. I'm willing to take this as far as you like. I look forward to your response and I thank you for helping to bring as much attention to this issue as possible (seriously, your posts are a terrific help!).

Best,
Reid

Reid,

It's obvious to all readers here that you are not objective on this glove(as evidenced by your not recognizing the maker of the glove as an expert or that the fact that the glove shows obvious signs of wear including the oiled palm trait of Cal's). I am also not objective as I am the owner. The most objective post on this subject ahs been Rudy's and Mvandor's.

[content edited]

Regards,
Dave

[ChrisCavalier]

Please keep in mind the following forum rule when making posts:

It is expected that all posts are to be created with a sincere attempt to benefit the hobby. Any posts which the Administrator deems as a personal attack or an attempt to unnecessarily discredit others will be subject to the administrative rules of the forum.

The objective of the forum is to help educate each other in a positive environment. I understand there are some differences of opinion here but please make sure the forum rules are observed when posting.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Chris

[CollectGU]

Reid,

I am no longer going to discuss the glove with you on the forum as this back and forth childish bickering is bringing no value to the collecting community and it's obvious we both lack objectivity. We both seem to be regurgitating the same arguments overe and over. The readers know where we stand ad nauseum. This will be my last post to you on this subject. I believe that Rudy's post covers the subject objectively and will leave it at that:

it essentially seems to be boiling down to a clevenhagen vs. esken issue. if clevenhagen is correct, then the glove is at a minimum, a legit game-issued glove that was specifically intended to be given to ripken for game use. if esken is correct, then the glove is not even a game-issue or ripken-spec model. given that i've never spoken to either, it's difficult to know whose opinion carries more weight. on one hand, clevenhagen made the thing. i'm not sure how you improve on that. of course, this entirely depends on clevenhagen having an excellent memory and being an upstanding, diligent, detail-driven guy. if he is, then i really fail to see how his opinion doesn't trump eskens'. clevenhagen is the one who personally speaks directly to ripken about his gloves. he's the one who gets all of the details from the players first hand. he's the one who knows what's going on in the rawlings glove dept. in other words, all of clevenhagen's knowledge is first-hand. it isn't derived from interpreting things, second-hand knowledge, data, etc. let's say, hypothetically, that esken said the lining is "wrong". does that conclusively mean it's bad or could it be that on that particular glove ripken called clevenhagen and told him he wanted to try a new lining or clevenhagen ran out of a certain material on that day and just substituted it with a comparable material. would esken have been privy to any of that? was esken privy to the private conversations between ripken and clevenhagen? does esken know that, if indeed the lining is wrong, that the substitution wasn't intentionally done by clevenhagen?

of course, if on the other hand clevenhagen is absent-minded, careless, and forgetful, then i can see why his opinion wouldn't carry weight even if he did make it. i don't know clevenhagen so i don't know how much weight his opinion carries. either he's more knowledgeable than esken given that he personally discusses these gloves with the players and he, not esken, knows exactly what goes on every single day in that room at rawlings. or, depending on his personality traits, he can barely be depended on for even the most basic of glove info.

reid's said that "only one is truly an expert in my and many other people's opinion: Denny Esken". reid, you must have some inside knowledge about clevenhagen to have excluded him from your list of "true experts". i'm curious, what is it about clevenhagen that prevents him from being a "true expert" on the gloves he makes?

"Heritage has repeatedly asserted that the glove is a Ripken game used glove in light of all of the expert opinions that do not support this claim"

simply because clevenhagen refrained from commenting on possible game use shouldn't be interpreted as an opinion from him on the matter either way. he didn't support the claim but he also didn't deny it. in fact, the letter simply never addressed it. to further assume the reasons why clevenhagen didn't address the issue of game use is nothing but conjecture.

for the most part, when things are called "game used" it's simply a matter of the specs matching up and use being evident. clevenhagen says the specs match up. anyone can see there's use. whether it's legit use or contrived is apparently an issue. regardless, i'm guessing that's why heritage is calling it game used. whether the specs match up or not is really a question that only clevenhagen can answer. i don't believe esken can say because, as i said, he has no idea if ripken called up clevenhagen and asked him for some modifications. has esken discussed this particular glove with ripken? maybe the glove doesn't match up to ripken's typical gamers (although if ripken himself claims he has all of his gloves except 2, i'd be curious to know how esken became so intimately familiar with ripken's gloves), but it isn't rare for players to request small changes. it's difficult to believe that esken has been privy to all of the changes that players have discussed with clevenhagen. if ripken calls up clevenhagen and asks for a "hot pink fun fur" inside lining, does esken know about that? or does he automatically assume the glove with the pink fun fur lining is wrong?

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Reid,

It's obvious to all readers here that you are not objective on this glove(as evidenced by your not recognizing the maker of the glove as an expert or that the fact that the glove shows obvious signs of wear including the oiled palm trait of Cal's). I am also not objective as I am the owner. The most objective post on this subject ahs been Rudy's and Mvandor's.

[content edited]

Regards,
Dave

Dave - I was going to "side" with you until you wrote what I highlighted in red. Read Rob's post that Esken said the oil was grease and who says the obvious signs of wear are authentic???? Have you seen a "real" Ripken gamer? How can you compare your oil/grease markings to the ones pictured from Getty and other sites? How can you explain the firm leather in the webbing which doesn't seem consistent with the other signs of wear?

Cal is now aware of this glove. Let's hope we get his spokesperson to Post.

Have you looked at the auction? No bidders on the HA.com website for this "Platinum" item.

I personally put the bulk of the blame on Heritage for not stating all the facts.

I now add Heritage to the list of auction houses that I have serious doubts about. Not to divert, but read about the Jordan 1992 jersey.

Andrew

[sportscentury]

Dave,

As I began to type my response to you, Denny Esken called me again. You have said that I'm not objective (which is an unfair statement on your part, but what is new?). So, I'd like to offer the following objective & factual commentary, based on tonight's conversation with Denny:

1) It is not a battle of authenticators as to the issue of game use. No authenticator that has been solicited thus far (though you can keep on trying) has been willing to say that Ripken used the glove.

2) The glove was manufactured in 1999, which is a fact, based on the four dots and the other model characteristics. Ripken moved to a larger glove prior to the beginning of the 2000 season (and used the larger glove during the 2000 and 2001 seasons), so the only possible season that the glove could have been worn is 1999. Denny has seen a multitude of this model glove, though Ripken played only 86 games in 1999. How many of these 4-dot gloves could he have used in 86 games?

3) Denny stated that the use characteristics of your glove are "nothing" like Ripken's typical use characteristics, including "grease" in the palm and a tight web.

4) Glove experts Clevenhagen and Phillips were unable to date the glove to 1999, but rather chose "1990s." (though, to their credit, they were able to pinpoint the decade in which the glove was manufactured).

5) Denny has talked with Clevenhagen about the glove. Both agree that the substance in the palm is not oil. They both insist that it is the synthetic grease that bonds the palm of the glove to the lining to "give the glove feel."

I think you should call Clevenhagen, Denny, or Joe, and ask them point blank: "What do you think the chances are that Ripken used this glove?" Let us know the results (as it's a real mystery).

Best,
Reid

[camarokids]

Did anyone take a gander at the buyer premium !!!!

22.5% :eek:



I saw that as well . I think that is a good reason why I have never bid in an auction that has a buyers premium . Probably never will .............

[skipcareyisfat]

I saw that as well . I think that is a good reason why I have never bid in an auction that has a buyers premium . Probably never will .............

C'mon you bunch of lilies! You're getting a rarely offered g/u (insert here), plus a Lou Lampson letter. What's to complain about? :p

[3arod13]

Cal is now aware of this glove. Let's hope we get his spokesperson to Post. Andrew

If this is true, I hope someone from Cal's side comes forward. I would hate to see someone pay that amount of money for this glove that still has many questions of its authenticity.

Cal...if you're out there and are aware of this matter, please come forward and solve it immediately.

Regards, Tony

[kingjammy24]

here are some photos of cal in 1999.

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/5011/ripkenei0.jpg

given that bob and denny have spoken to each other about this glove, i'm very surprised there's no news about the entire issue of the lining. they must've discussed it right? did they agree to disagree? if so, how did that conversation go?

bob - "denny, as i said in the letter, i remember making this glove for ripken. i remember stitching it together with my bare hands".

denny - "no you didn't".

something like that? seriously, i kid. it's just very surprising that, with clevenhagen saying the lining is good and esken saying it isn't and them speaking to each other, they weren't able to resolve the issue.

anyway, maybe the lining is "wrong" and maybe it doesn't conform to ripken's typical use characteristics, however as reid fontaine said earlier "perhaps Ripken did use it briefly to try out a glove with the unusual lining." maybe it really was sent to ripken to try after trying it out and hating it, he gave it away. maybe that might explain the "tight web"? (ie: very brief use). maybe after it was given away, it was doctored up to show more use than it really had. maybe it's a perfect replica that clevenhagen himself can't tell apart from a gamer. ripken's own words don't exactly put it in a positive light.

while i agree that it'd be good for heritage to mention esken's opinion, i'm unsure about the protocol of it all. that is, they didn't solicit his opinion or pay him for it so can they still issue it? his opinion was issued for another auction house. i'm unsure if heritage can go ahead and use it for their purposes. when GFC and subsequently Historic sold that garbage "87 mcgriff" jersey, i railed on and on about it. neither of them chose to include my opinion in their ads. to quote david brent "and that's the tragedy".

rudy.

[sportscentury]

given that bob and denny have spoken to each other about this glove, i'm very surprised there's no news about the entire issue of the lining. they must've discussed it right? did they agree to disagree? if so, how did that conversation go?

bob - "denny, as i said in the letter, i remember making this glove for ripken. i remember stitching it together with my bare hands".

denny - "no you didn't".

something like that? seriously, i kid. it's just very surprising that, with clevenhagen saying the lining is good and esken saying it isn't and them speaking to each other, they weren't able to resolve the issue.

anyway, maybe the lining is "wrong" and maybe it doesn't conform to ripken's typical use characteristics, however as reid fontaine said earlier "perhaps Ripken did use it briefly to try out a glove with the unusual lining." maybe it really was sent to ripken to try after trying it out and hating it, he gave it away. maybe that might explain the "tight web"? (ie: very brief use). maybe after it was given away, it was doctored up to show more use than it really had. maybe it's a perfect replica that clevenhagen himself can't tell apart from a gamer. ripken's own words don't exactly put it in a positive light.

Hi, Rudy -

I can offer the following, per my conversations with Denny. Denny and Bob do not disagree that Bob made the glove. Also, they do not disagree that it's a pro glove made to Cal's specifications, with the exception of the lining. Denny told me that the lining was an option that became available to the players earlier in the 1990s and that some players did not like it (including Ripken, Ozzie, and a few other stars) because it was "too soft." I did not have this information prior to my earlier post that you quoted above. I actually had planned to not post about this situation again, though I did want to explain my earlier post, since it was quoted.

As for the glove, Heritage has listed it as they fit. Dave and I disagree about many things, but I agree with him that at this point it is up to the bidder/buyer as to his comfort level with the item. As such, I intend this to be my last post on the topic.

Best,
Reid

[3arod13]

Dave and I disagree about many things, but I agree with him that at this point it is up to the bidder/buyer as to his comfort level with the item.
Best,
Reid

I would agree if all bidders are aware of this thread. Then, they could decide on bidding with their confort level.

Regards, Tony

[allstarsplus]

I would agree if all bidders are aware of this thread. Then, they could decide on bidding with their confort level.

Regards, Tony

I wouldn't expect Heritage to alert "Potential Bidders" to read this Thread before bidding so unless they are regulars here or do their own substantial due dillegence I wouldn't expect they can bid with any comfort level.


As for the glove, Heritage has listed it as they fit. Dave and I disagree about many things, but I agree with him that at this point it is up to the bidder/buyer as to his comfort level with the item.


We will see where all this ends after the auction is over I guess.

Andrew

[mvandor]

Hi, Rudy -

I can offer the following, per my conversations with Denny. Denny and Bob do not disagree that Bob made the glove. Also, they do not disagree that it's a pro glove made to Cal's specifications, with the exception of the lining. Denny told me that the lining was an option that became available to the players earlier in the 1990s and that some players did not like it (including Ripken, Ozzie, and a few other stars) because it was "too soft." I did not have this information prior to my earlier post that you quoted above. I actually had planned to not post about this situation again, though I did want to explain my earlier post, since it was quoted.

As for the glove, Heritage has listed it as they fit. Dave and I disagree about many things, but I agree with him that at this point it is up to the bidder/buyer as to his comfort level with the item. As such, I intend this to be my last post on the topic.

Best,
Reid

It occurs to me that it is POSSIBLE given the foregoing that the glove was made for Cal, he tried it in practice, perhaps even a game or two, didn't like the lining, and dumped it quickly before it accumulated the typical characteristics. In fact, if he dumped it quickly, he might not even have memory of it. It seems possible players are often asked to try new gear and simply don't like certain pieces and either end up not using them, or only using them very briefly.

[allstarsplus]

It occurs to me that it is POSSIBLE given the foregoing that the glove was made for Cal, he tried it in practice, perhaps even a game or two, didn't like the lining, and dumped it quickly before it accumulated the typical characteristics. In fact, if he dumped it quickly, he might not even have memory of it. It seems possible players are often asked to try new gear and simply don't like certain pieces and either end up not using them, or only using them very briefly.

MVANDOR - You can certainly come up with an infinite amount of possible scenarios such as the one you came up with.

I just don't buy into your alternate theory (highlighted above in red) of any loss of memory on this one as it would pertain to Cal. Cal has stated before that he even knows all the whereabouts of his backup gloves.

Andrew

[Carlevv]

I'll dissagree with that one. Not knowing how good Cal's memory actually is i'd have to challenge Cal on that. Players get many gloves and will only give a few a shot. In spring training i'd have to guess that Cal gave 5 to 8 gloves a shot before choosing two for the season. Most players do this. If you are saying after using all those gloves he knows where they went i'd have to say you are reaching. Im not going to hijack this thread but i own a Cal Ripken glove. If Cal says he only had one glove stolen and only gave one away in his career then i have one of those right? No, mine isnt the one that was stolen or the one he says he gave away. This thread will live on forever because there are SO MANY people saying they are experts and remember every glove that was ever made for Cal and somehow they can say what glove Cal has ever used. Comical if you ask me.

[allstarsplus]

In spring training i'd have to guess that Cal gave 5 to 8 gloves a shot before choosing two for the season.

Cal has been retired since 2001 and you are saying you remember his count of gloves used during Spring Training?

You have quite a memory too.

How can you justify those numbers?

Andrew

[Carlevv]

Andrew, if you read what you quoted me saying, i said if i had to GUESS Cal gave 5 to 8 gloves a shot before choosing two for the season. As far as you asking me how i can justify those numbers....... I said most players practice this. Im grouping Cal in with most of the infielders in the game. What else would you like me to explain further?

[allstarsplus]

Andrew, if you read what you quoted me saying, i said if i had to GUESS Cal gave 5 to 8 gloves a shot before choosing two for the season. As far as you asking me how i can justify those numbers....... I said most players practice this. Im grouping Cal in with most of the infielders in the game. What else would you like me to explain further?

Carl - I was making sure your "guess" wasn't based on you personally following Cal through Spring Training or your own visual observations of his locker.

I now understand your "guess" as having nothing to do with Cal, but with infielders in general. Speculating on "most" players would be acceptable if we were talking about a Brendan Harris, but Cal Ripken certainly never followed that practice.

One of my favorite articles about the new Rawlings Primo glove had a statement about Cal Ripken in there. I highlighted that portion in orange below as well as some other good portions.

I forwarded a letter from one of Cal's executive employees to Rob Steinmetz which stated this employee's opinions towards the glove. He doesn't dispute Clevenhagen's claim which bodes well to also say this is probably a "game issued" glove with a real autograph, but his personal opinion also questions the authenticity of "game use".

Carl, I am not an expert, but have read what the experts have said and none of the experts will say Cal actually used the glove. That is the issue here.

Andrew

Luxury baseball: The $400 glove

Rawlings has introduced the world's fanciest baseball glove. But can major leaguers be persuaded to use it?


By Matthew Boyle (mboyle@fortunemail.com), Fortune writer
August 24 2007: 4:30 PM EDT


(Fortune Magazine) -- When Yogi Berra was a kid growing up in St. Louis, he asked his father for a baseball glove for Christmas. He got a pair of trousers instead.

Luckily for the game of baseball and for fans of malapropisms worldwide, Berra eventually got his own mitt, which he cherished. "There's nothing more personal than your own baseball glove," he wrote in the foreword to "Glove Affairs," a book by Noah Liberman.

http://i.cnn.net/money/2007/08/23/news/funny/100202648.fortune/glove.03.jpgThe Primo, made of Italian leather, costs $400.

St. Louis is as good a place as any to begin this glove story, as it is the home of Rawlings, currently in its 120th year as a supplier of all manner of baseball equipment. In 1920, Rawlings introduced the first glove to feature laces between the thumb and forefinger (previous mitts were no more than padded workmen's gloves).

That glove, called the Bill Doak, began an evolutionary process that today culminates in the Rawlings Primo, the most expensive baseball glove ever made. It costs $400. Yes, $400 - that's a little over a week's pay for a typical Wal-Mart employee. (At least that employee won't be tempted to blow his wages, as you'll never find the Primo on Wal-Mart's shelves.)

Two years in development, the Primo features Italian leather hand-sewn into an advanced three-layer design that, Rawlings claims, can be broken in to suit specific positions. In a season dominated by batting achievements (Barry Bonds' record*, Alex Rodriguez's 500th homer), Rawlings hopes the Primo will reestablish its status as the preeminent glove-design house, a position that is under threat from rivals like Wilson, Mizuno, Easton and Nike (http://money.cnn.com/quote/quote.html?symb=NKE&source=story_quote_link) (Charts (http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/chart.html?symb=NKE&source=story_charts_link), Fortune 500 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2007/snapshots/945.html?source=story_f500_link)).

The battle for bragging rights has gotten fierce. Japanese rival Mizuno claims that its $300 Mizuno Pro with so-called 4D Technology, designed using pressure sensors attached to players' hands, is actually the "world's best ball glove."

Rawlings says that 38 percent of all Major League Baseball players are wearing its gloves this season, making them the pros' most popular. That percentage has declined in recent years, though, as competitors dangle big money in front of star players to get them to wear their gloves and to endorse kids' models. The Pittsburgh Pirates' All-Star outfielder Jason Bay, for one, defected to Easton this year.

But this is not the usual tale of celebrity endorsement. Rawlings, unlike the makers of, say, trendy cell phones, faces a unique business challenge as it attempts to get the Primo into the hands of MLB stars - and consequently on the little fingers of young players who idolize them.
The issue is not sticker shock. Parents these days think hardly anything of buying their 11-year-old Little Leaguer a glove with a three-digit pricetag, especially if he's playing more than 100 games a year across the country, as some elite traveling squads do. No, the problem is persuading big-league baseball players to part with their well-worn, perfectly broken-in gloves.

High-wattage Rawlings clients - among them Derek Jeter and A-Rod of the New York Yankees, Jose Reyes of the crosstown Mets and Albert Pujols of the St. Louis Cardinals - all have so far declined to use the Primo in games, despite its apparently superior design. San Diego Padres shortstop Khalil Greene has one in his locker but to date has not switched.

The Primo so far has found love only from the Padres' Jake Peavy, the San Francisco Giants' Barry Zito, and the Seattle Mariners' Horacio Ramirez. All of them are pitchers, who are traditionally the least attached to their gloves.

But even the fickle hurlers are not totally sold on the Primo. Peavy - whose stellar year on the mound has put him on the cusp of superstardom - asked Rawlings to apply the Primo's Italian leather to his old glove's design.

Rawlings, in other words, has come up with the most lavish glove ever but has yet to persuade any everyday players to use it. Some have grumbled that it is too heavy; others just think it's bad karma to switch.

Ted Sizemore, a former Dodger who is now Rawlings's chief liaison with MLB players, is doing his best to address this. One of his tactics is to persuade minor-league prospects, not yet set in their ways, to wear the Primo during spring training. "You get them to like the color and the feel and the weight of the glove," he says. "A few start using it, and word of mouth spreads."

But as a former player, Sizemore understands the Sisyphean nature of his task. "It's very hard to get a player to change from something he really loves," he says.

While bats break all the time and balls are a dime a dozen, the bond between a player and his mitt is akin to a marriage. Former Oakland A's and Atlanta Braves shortstop Walt Weiss's glove, aptly dubbed "the Creature" for both its look and its smell, stayed with him for more than a decade. Indeed, the attention and devotion a player showers on his glove can outweigh that shown to his spouse.

The methods and materials for breaking in a glove vary widely and over the years have included hot water, cold water, hot air, tobacco, shaving cream, spit, scissors, bats, knives and mallets, according to Liberman's book. Berra wrapped balls in the pocket of his Rawlings catcher's mitt with rubber bands, put it in a sauna, then stuck it in a clothes dryer for two days.

Some players don't care so much - Rickey Henderson once had a Rawlings salesman break in his glove for him. But as a rule, a major leaguer will keep close watch over his game glove (dubbed a "gamer," it is never used for practice). Some players hide them in secret compartments in their lockers.

Oriole Hall of Famer Cal Ripken is just one of many players who would not let anyone touch his gamer, under any circumstances.

Such an intense relationship can end badly, of course. Former St. Louis Cardinals third baseman Kenny Reitz, nicknamed "the Zamboni Machine" for his defensive prowess, once set his glove on fire in the clubhouse after making a couple of errors in a game, shouting, "You're no good anymore!"
Given such attachment between a man and his leather, the folks at Rawlings have their work cut out for them. "Innovating is cool as long as you keep in mind that current gloves are not broken," says Matt Arndt, a senior VP at Easton. "They are there for a reason."

The inspiration for the most expensive glove ever made came from a bat. So-called double-walled bats have a barrel made of two layers (think of a tube within a tube), which can flex more than a single layer and create a sort of trampoline effect.

A few years ago two Rawlings product managers were talking shop when one said, "Hey, why not multiple walls for a glove?" The idea soon became Rawlings's top development project, under the direction of R&D chief Art Chou and Denny Whiteside, the company's head designer.

The best baseball gloves come from the heart of a cow's hide - that is, along the backbone. There's less stretching there, as a cow grows mainly in its belly region. (Not coincidentally, one of Rawlings's most popular gloves is called Heart of the Hide.) About four gloves can be made from each half of a hide.

Traditional gloves consist of two main layers - the palm (outside) and the lining (inside). The Primo includes a third layer in the middle called the inner palm, which has shapes and channels cut into the material, allowing a pocket to be formed in the area that best suits each position.


As with other gloves, the Primo comes in two varieties - one for infielders and a longer, wider and deeper one for outfielders. The inner palm of an infielder's Primo is designed to enhance the scooping action used to field ground balls. The outfielder's inner palm is designed to enhance the closing action preferred for fly balls.

Each Primo takes two days to make, and Rawlings made only 3,000 this year. They are available through specialty-equipment retailers like Baseball Express in San Antonio.

But as good as the Primo claims to be, the challenge to make it a gamer persists. And the frantic pace of innovation in today's glove world could soon make the Primo a relic, like the 1920 Doak model. "To stay on top, we continually have to come up with better gloves," says Sizemore. Rawlings is looking at $200-plus weather-resistant gloves made from polymers and is working on machines that will break in gloves before they're sold.

There's little doubt that high-tech gloves will succeed - kids will love them as fiercely as their fathers loved the old Heart of the Hides. No matter how fancy they get, gloves will remain personal.

Longtime baseball executive Peter Bavasi, whose father, Buzzie, ran the Dodgers in the 1950s, says that he was once asked which Dodger great was his favorite player. Was it Duke Snider? Jackie Robinson? Nope, he said - it was Bill Antonello, an outfielder who played one season for the Dodgers in 1953, batted .163, and never made it back to the bigs.
Why Antonello?

"Because," Bavasi recalls, "when I was 11, he gave me a glove." http://i.cnn.net/money/images/bug.gif (http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/23/news/funny/100202648.fortune/index.htm#TOP)

[Carlevv]

Well, i agree that Cal just like any other player guard their game gloves with high regard. A back up glove is way different. Thats what im saying here. The glove in question this whole time is no way a gamer or something Cal used for more than a week. And yes i group Cal in with ANY other player when it comes to back up gloves. They get attention until they arent used in BP or in any games. I didnt read that whole story you posted but working for a Major league team in the clubhouse for more than a decade leads me to believe i know what im talking about when it comes to players habits.

[Carlevv]

Also, for the record i have handled Cal's gloves for many years and know all about his locker, his equipement and his habits.

[05whitesox]

their is another cal ripken ame used fielding glove on ebay the item number is 170159249676 i dont know what kind of auction it is i never seen it before.;)

[3arod13]

their is another cal ripken ame used fielding glove on ebay the item number is 170159249676 i dont know what kind of auction it is i never seen it before.;)

this is the glove this thread is about

[3arod13]

Ended auction early. Guess there wasn't any interest.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120171727867&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=002

[3arod13]

disregard. Haven't had my coffee yet. Got my auctions mixed up. However, I doubt there will be any interest in the Ripken glove anyway.

[hblakewolf]

disregard. Haven't had my coffee yet. Got my auctions mixed up. However, I doubt there will be any interest in the Ripken glove anyway.

What do you base this statement on? With an opening bid amount of only$1,500, that's an extremely attractive price for a signed Cal Ripken Jr. professional issued glove.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[3arod13]

disregard. Haven't had my coffee yet. Got my auctions mixed up. However, I doubt there will be any interest in the Ripken glove anyway.

What do you base this statement on? With an opening bid amount of only$1,500, that's an extremely attractive price for a signed Cal Ripken Jr. professional issued glove.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Simple...my opinion!

[3arod13]

disregard. Haven't had my coffee yet. Got my auctions mixed up. However, I doubt there will be any interest in the Ripken glove anyway.

What do you base this statement on? With an opening bid amount of only$1,500, that's an extremely attractive price for a signed Cal Ripken Jr. professional issued glove.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Opening bid is $3,000

[camarokids]

[quote=hblakewolf;57700]

Opening bid is $3,000

Both of you were/are correct . opening bid was $1500.00 then changed to $3K

[3arod13]

[quote=3arod13;57706]

Both of you were/are correct . opening bid was $1500.00 then changed to $3K

Thanks!

[3arod13]

Cal Ripken Jr. glove sold for $2,900

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170159249676&rd=1

[allstarsplus]

Strange $ amount when the auction said $3,000 starting bid. Does anyone have the background? Bidders: 0

Bidders:http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif0 Total Bids:http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif1 Time Ended:http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifOct-27-07 12:00:04 PDT
http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconInfo_16x16.gifhttp://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif This item has ended.

[RobSteinmetz]

Check again guys. If you are following the live auction on Heritage's site, it pretty clearly states that the glove did not sell. There is an option to buy the glove now for $3500 and change.

Rob

[allstarsplus]

Check again guys. If you are following the live auction on Heritage's site, it pretty clearly states that the glove did not sell. There is an option to buy the glove now for $3500 and change.

Rob

Rob - It shows as sold. $3,000 + 19.5% BUYER'S PREMIUM

Lot: 19658
Auction: 708 (http://sports.ha.com/common/auction/catalog.php?SaleNo=708) 1990's Cal Ripken, Jr. Game Used Fielder's Glove. For the serious game used equipment collector, the fielder's glove is con...

http://sports.ha.com/common/images/clear.gif

http://images.ha.com/lf?source%3Durl%5Bfile%3Aimages%2FInetPub%2FNewNam es/300/1/0/6/1/1061479.jpg%5D%2Cname%5Bitem%5D%26scale%3Dsize%5B1 46x200%5D%26blank%3Dwidth%5B%28item.width%20%2B%20 10%29%5D%2Cheight%5B%28item.height%20%2B%2010%29%5 D%26draw%3Dpoints%5B10%2C10%20item.width%2C%20item .height%5D%2Cprimitive%5Brectangle%5D%2Cfill%5Bbla ck%5D%26blur%3Dradius%5B20%5D%2Csigma%5B5%5D%26com posite%3Dimage%5Bitem%5D%26sink%3Dquality%5B90%5D (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658&src=pr#Photo)


View Larger Image (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658&src=pr#Photo) http://sports.ha.com/common/images/DownArrow.gif (http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=19658&src=pr#Photo)
http://sports.ha.com/common/images/bid_lose.gifSold for: $3,585.00 (includes BPhttp://sports.ha.com/common/images/Questionmark.gif)


Bid Source: N/A


Ended:Oct 26, 2007


Buyer's Premium:19.5% of the successful bid (minimum $9.00 per lot)


Auction Name:2007 October Signature Sports Collectibles Auction - Session II #708