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View Full Version : Bradshaw Helmet -Magic Trick!



beantown
04-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Watch this Terry Bradshaw Game Used Helmet in Heritage Auctions via Ebay....the facemask clips magically change from "black" to "clear"......priceless ;)

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170103243301&rd=1,1

otismalibu
04-25-2007, 05:53 PM
So Terry Bradshaw, Kellen Winslow and Lou Lampson walk into a bar...

beantown
04-25-2007, 06:46 PM
I couldn't match this helmet "EXACTLY" to any photos I referenced, even Bradshaw's helmet in the Steelers Hall of Fame at Heinz Field. Here are the issues I've found....

#1 font appears to be different than in the attached photos...notice the slant on the top part of #1. Can't tell about the #2, since there isn't a clear shot from the front.

The Steelers decal is placed to high on the helmet....the Steelers traditionally have their decal just above the ear hole. Also, the decal appears to be placed in the inside of this helmet (clear shell)...some of the photos I've referenced of Bradshaw show wear on the decal, which indicates that the decal is on the outside of the helmet..

Any thought about this Steelers collectors?

ChrisCavalier
04-25-2007, 09:09 PM
Watch this Terry Bradshaw Game Used Helmet in Heritage Auctions via Ebay....the facemask clips magically change from "black" to "clear"......priceless ;)

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170103243301&rd=1,1
Hello beantown,

Has Heritage been asked about the last image on the right of the five having clear facemask clips while the four other images in the sequence have black ones? It justs seems very strange for that to be listed as it is and, rather than anyone speculating as to why, I think the appropriate thing would be to allow Heritage to clear this up for everyone (sorry for the pun).

Please let us know if you have contacted Heritage (or will contact them) or if someone else needs to take the lead in doing so.

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,
Chris

beantown
04-25-2007, 10:23 PM
Chris,

Hello...I have emailed them to ask them about the helmet's provenance, however, I did not mention the difference in the clips. I will email them on that and post when I receive a response...

ChrisCavalier
04-25-2007, 11:35 PM
Chris,

Hello...I have emailed them to ask them about the helmet's provenance, however, I did not mention the difference in the clips. I will email them on that and post when I receive a response...
Thank you so much for handling this.

-Chris

beantown
04-26-2007, 06:11 PM
Thank you so much for handling this.

-Chris


Chris,

I still haven't heard back from Heritage on this....if I hear from them, I will let you know. Maybe if you ask they'd respond to you quicker....

ChrisCavalier
04-26-2007, 07:02 PM
Chris,

I still haven't heard back from Heritage on this....if I hear from them, I will let you know. Maybe if you ask they'd respond to you quicker....
Hello beantown,

Are my eyes playing tricks on me or is the fifth image in the sequence now different than it was before? I don't think its the same image although you can still see the clear facemask clips if you look closely.

Am I mistaken? If not, I'm beginning to wonder if David Copperfield may have something to do with this :)

Sincerely,
Chris

otismalibu
04-26-2007, 07:11 PM
Yeah, it looks like it's been changed. Are the first pics a little darker now too?

I suggest people immediately save pics, print screen & paste, etc. when you first spot something.

CollectGU
04-26-2007, 07:20 PM
I tried to call them right now, but got voicemail. I am going to try something different, and call them tomorrow, identify myself on the phone and ask for an explanation. I find phone conversations to be easier and less impersonal. I will tell you that this appears to be another switch much like the Winslow helmet and doesn't bode well for these auction houses or for Lou...I will post my findings tomorrow.

Regards,
Dave

both-teams-played-hard
04-26-2007, 08:02 PM
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8936/doughenningpittsz0.jpg

mvandor
04-26-2007, 08:13 PM
Hello beantown,

Are my eyes playing tricks on me or is the fifth image in the sequence now different than it was before? I don't think its the same image although you can still see the clear facemask clips if you look closely.

Am I mistaken? If not, I'm beginning to wonder if David Copperfield may have something to do with this :)

Sincerely,
Chris
Nope, last image WAS changed. However, for another clear clip image. Go figure.:confused:

beantown
04-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Hello beantown,

Are my eyes playing tricks on me or is the fifth image in the sequence now different than it was before? I don't think its the same image although you can still see the clear facemask clips if you look closely.

Am I mistaken? If not, I'm beginning to wonder if David Copperfield may have something to do with this :)

Sincerely,
Chris


Hello...I have the pictures saved from when it was intially posted by Heritage...here they are and they appear to be the same that's in the listing now...

otismalibu
04-26-2007, 08:19 PM
I'm not seeing that last pic in the auction at this time.

I'll check again :confused:

beantown
04-26-2007, 08:28 PM
I'm not seeing that last pic in the auction at this time.

I'll check again :confused:


I just checked this link and it's there for now :cool:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=007&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=170103243301&rd=1,1

otismalibu
04-26-2007, 08:34 PM
Well, in my world the last photo from post #13 is not visible in the auction when I click on that link. The last 2 photos at the auction, show the helmet upside down.

beantown
04-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Well, in my world the last photo from post #13 is not visible in the auction when I click on that link. The last 2 photos at the auction, show the helmet upside down.


That's odd...how can that be????

otismalibu
04-26-2007, 08:50 PM
I dunno.

One of us is obviously suffering Merril Hoge type symptoms.

If you click refresh at the auction page, does anything change?

Eric
04-26-2007, 08:53 PM
They're upside down on mine too

Here's the same shot with the facemask facing the right. Clips are black here, they were clear in the other shot. Marks on the helmet were the same.

4143

beantown
04-26-2007, 08:55 PM
I dunno.

One of us is obviously suffering Merril Hoge type symptoms.

If you click refresh at the auction page, does anything change?


Yes it does! Now I see what you see and the last picture is of the helmet upside down, but you can still see the clear facemask clips. Heritage is obviously aware of the first picture with the clear facemask clips either from me contacting them or them reading this forum. It's a shame that they switched pictures around and never responded to my questions....

otismalibu
04-26-2007, 08:59 PM
It's a shame that they switched pictures around and never responded to my questions....

A shame, but not a surprise.

beantown
04-27-2007, 10:30 PM
A response from Heritage Auctions on the Bradshaw helmet.....

Thank you for your inquiry. As any vintage helmet expert will tell you, face mask clips become incredibly brittle over time, and eventual breakage is all but assured. Such was the case with the Bradshaw helmet, and when the original black clips were broken, our consignor replaced them with clear clips. This is how we received the helmet, and how it was originally imaged for the auction. At the time of consignment, he asked if we could locate some original period black clips for the helmet, which we did. The helmet was then re-imaged with the black clips. Both images remained on our site and this seems to have caused some confusion. Rest assured that there is only one Bradshaw helmet, and that it now features the rare and proper period clips.
Just to be clear, the original Dan Marino game worn helmet face mask clips were broken as well. It was consigned with clear clips (as it is imaged in the catalog), then upon locating the proper period clips, they were exchanged. The online images (www.HA.com (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/www.HA.com)) feature the vintage replacement clips. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or if I can be of any further assistance.
Regards,
Jonathan Scheier

Sounds plausible too me as I have had vintage helmets and the clips do break easily....

Eric
04-27-2007, 10:44 PM
Does it mention in the item description that the clips have been replaced? That's a fairly important fact for the buyer, is it not?

Eric

beantown
04-27-2007, 10:57 PM
Does it mention in the item description that the clips have been replaced? That's a fairly important fact for the buyer, is it not?

Eric


Eric,

Although not explicit in the response, I believe this quote means, yes, the helmet has had the facemask clips replaced.... "

At the time of consignment, he asked if we could locate some original period black clips for the helmet, which we did. The helmet was then re-imaged with the black clips. Both images remained on our site and this seems to have caused some confusion. Rest assured that there is only one Bradshaw helmet, and that it now features the rare and proper period clips".

CollectGU
04-28-2007, 12:36 AM
How incredibaly

CollectGU
04-28-2007, 12:47 AM
A response from Heritage Auctions on the Bradshaw helmet.....


Sounds plausible too me as I have had vintage helmets and the clips do break easily....



It's not plausible or acceptable. Changing any piece of memorabilia, NO LONGER Makes it original, and should be disclosed the same way a resoration on a jersey is disclosed. So, the original clips on this helmet where clear which matches no known photos from that period, to black which matches photos....sad...I'm going to go out on a limb and bet Heritage was aware of all of this from the moment they were given the helmet.

Dave

DrJ
04-28-2007, 08:30 AM
I think it makes sense. Most helmet collectors know the clear clips are replacements and understand why. Probably best to mention new black ones were added since the fact they are new won't stand out in the pictures like clear ones would, but I personally don't think it's a big deal if it's not. I've had several old helmets shipped to me with colored clips and about half have broken during transit, I don't complain to the seller because they've broken when I've shipped them too. If they don't break during shipment they will within a few years if the helmet is handled at all. By the way - anyone can buy virtually any color replacements for $25 for a set of 4, but I think the buyer will be happier to receive the helmet in one piece and not have to purchase their own replacement clips and have to wait on them to be shipped and then have to install them. Just my 2 cents....

mvandor
04-28-2007, 09:06 AM
I think it makes sense. Most helmet collectors know the clear clips are replacements and understand why. Probably best to mention new black ones were added since the fact they are new won't stand out in the pictures like clear ones would, but I personally don't think it's a big deal if it's not. I've had several old helmets shipped to me with colored clips and about half have broken during transit, I don't complain to the seller because they've broken when I've shipped them too. If they don't break during shipment they will within a few years if the helmet is handled at all. By the way - anyone can buy virtually any color replacements for $25 for a set of 4, but I think the buyer will be happier to receive the helmet in one piece and not have to purchase their own replacement clips and have to wait on them to be shipped and then have to install them. Just my 2 cents....
I believe it is a question of disclosure. I too would prefer the helmet with the black clips, HOWEVER, the orig clear clips DO cast some doubt on authenticity and a lack of disclosure IS misleading the public and a concealment of vital info.

Eric
04-28-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and bet Heritage was aware of all of this from the moment they were given the helmet.

Dave

We should deal in fact here, and not guesses. I'm not sure you can say that. You have no proof of that...
Eric

ChrisCavalier
04-28-2007, 02:30 PM
We should deal in fact here, and not guesses. I'm not sure you can say that. You have no proof of that...
Eric
I agree with Eric. We are trying to share information based on facts and not conjecture. This is especially important if such theories can create a negative opinion of an entity if accepted.

While everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, please make sure that anything posted on the forums can be substantiated. As a reminder, we have created the following forum rules to try to ensure posts are not based on any speculation that, while maybe not intending to do so, have the potential to discredit others:

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, it is expected that the poster clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, it is expected that the poster questioning an item will attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item.

It is expected that all posts are to be created with a sincere attempt to benefit the hobby. Any posts which the Administrator deems as a personal attack or an attempt to unnecessarily discredit others will be subject to the administrative rules of the forum.

Thanks again for everyone's cooperation in this area.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

bucephalus
04-07-2009, 02:17 AM
If the clips for the Bradshaw helmet are of the period, and that's the only discrepancy for it not being 100% game worn ... that's fine. The mask itself, would be a problem ... but clips? If they're the right type from that era, that's not even deception. It's a favor.

Vintagedeputy
04-07-2009, 07:54 AM
If the clips for the Bradshaw helmet are of the period, and that's the only discrepancy for it not being 100% game worn ... that's fine. The mask itself, would be a problem ... but clips? If they're the right type from that era, that's not even deception. It's a favor.

2 years! wow, that some good thread CPR! :)