PDA

View Full Version : 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?



Eric
03-30-2007, 11:26 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen we are truly blessed at this time. The chance to look at not one but two extremely rare jerseys authenticated by the same person, for sale at the same time.

Behold 2 1994 Throwback John Elway Game Worn white Jerseys.

Notes
One is a size 46, one is a size 48
Lampson gives the one in Vintage Authentics 0 points for provenance rarity, so maybe there are more out there!!!

Vintage Authentics
Road white Wilson Denver Broncos throwback style jersey used by Hall of Fame QB John Elway during the NFL's 75th Anniversary season of 1994. The gamer features the ever-popular 75th Anniversary patch in correct position on upper left chest properly zigzag affixed. Single color sleeve numerals and Wilson "W" (left sleeve) in correct white while body numerals and NOB in proper 2-color font sewn on. The sleeve cuffs are ribbed as worn by Elway on TBC jerseys in 1994. Overall the game use evidence is light apropos single game and leads to a final authentic grade of 6.5.

http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=81419365&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=81766075

American Memorabilia
This size "48" Wilson throwback jersey was worn by the Hall of Fame quarterback during the 1994 season. Light quarterback wear, as would be expected from a style used for only a few games, is evident on this timeless gamer. Orange and blue sleeve ends and an orange V-neck accentuate the white mesh body. All of the numerals, which have puckered noticeably, are sewn on in two-color tackle twill. An NFL 75th Anniversary patch is affixed on the left breast. Diamond-shaped inserts are built into the underarms, and a strip of stretch spandex is applied to the sides. "ELWAY" is sewn to a nameplate on the verso. A Wilson tag appears in the tail with a suspended flag designator. Elway signed ("9") the verso numeral in silver paint pen.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956

What my friends are the odds?
Eric

EndzoneSports
03-30-2007, 01:07 PM
As detailed in an article on our website (see "Unique" Elway Jerseys Abound (5/8/05)" at http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm)), Lampson had "authenticated" (for lack of a better term) at least two (unique as identified by differing autos) if not 3 of this exact same style of Elway jersey for American Memorabilia's auctions between 2002 and 2005. As these were all sized 48, the appearance of the one sized at 46 would for sure make for at least 3 "unique" specimens and possibly as many as 5. To account for up to five, this would presume that the unautographed jersey in 2002 was not subsequently autographed and then re-sold in 2004 or '05 and that the current unautographed size 48 is again not the same one previously offered. To Lou's VA's credit, they at least got the description down right, noting that this was for "single game use", whereas AMIs description noted that this style was "used for only a few games". The ONLY game in which this style was worn by the Broncos was on 9/26/94 at Buffalo.

http://endzone.pscoggin.com/Graphics/news/AMIElway.jpg

Also noted in the above referenced article is that Grey Flannel has seperately authenticated three different jerseys of this style in sizes 44, 46 and 48. Additionally, the Pro Football Hall of Fame also lays claim to having this jersey within their collection, it having been donated to them by the team/player. HOF Rep Jason Aikens confirmed that their jersey is also the white, road jersey in a size 44.

Regards,

Eric
03-30-2007, 02:44 PM
Patrick-

Congratulations. You beat the authenticator.
Eric

both-teams-played-hard
03-30-2007, 03:47 PM
What my friends are the odds?

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4411/aslotmachinegj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

EndzoneSports
04-01-2007, 02:55 PM
As a follow-up on this topic, after reviewing graphics of the two listings, I would speculate that the jersey currently at auction by American Memorabilia (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=35956) is the same one that was sold in their 4/7/2005 auction (note autograph on back #7)

http://pscoggin.com/Endzone/Graphics/temp/2005AMI.jpg
2005 (above) and 2007 (below) AMI auction listings
http://pscoggin.com/Endzone/Graphics/temp/2007AMI.jpg

From Lampon, this would total at least four of this single-game style jersey that he has "authenticated": 3 different in size 48 (2002 - no auto, light QB wear, 2004 black auto, awesome QB wear; 2005/'07 silver auto, lightly used) and now a fourth in a 46 currently offered by Vintage Auth.

Regards,

Eric
04-01-2007, 06:10 PM
Patrick provided additional valuable info on the old forum on this very topic.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1111851849/last-1111949488/94+Throwback+Elway+Jerseys+LOA'd+by+Lampson

lund6771
04-01-2007, 09:50 PM
this eally shows how stupid Lampson is...he also authenticated a bunch of Brett Favre throwbacks as well that was worn on Halloween night against the Bears...Lampson would probably say that it's very common for a star player to change jerseys after every play...I can't wait to walk into the post office someday and see a wanted poster of this idiot

EndzoneSports
04-02-2007, 09:08 AM
As we have recently received a number of contacts regarding the 1994 Elway “Thowback” jerseys, I thought it would be best to recap the entire history here.


In Nov 1998, Endzone Sports Charities (ESC) procures a size 48 white, road 1994 “Thowback” jersey authenticated by Grey Flannel (LOA # R.V. 324E, 2/9/1998), presumed to be the authentic jersey worn by QB John Elway on Sep 26. ‘94 at Buffalo—the only game where this style of jersey was worn by the Broncos. ESC jersey subsequently sold in good faith, as we had since procured another sample for our collection.
An October 2000 article in the Denver Rocky Mountain News highlighted several pieces of Broncos memorabilia that were a part of the HOF's collection. One of the items noted was, "John Elway's complete Throwback uniform from the 1994 season." On Aug 27, 2001 Jason Aikens of the Pro Football Hall of Fame, confirmed via e-mail that, “Our Elway throwbacks jersey is white and size 44”, thus initially raising speculation.
ESC contacted Grey Flannel (GF) on 4/28/01 when they offered a 2nd jersey of the same style (in size 44) as Lot #1130 in their 2001 Spring Training auction. The auction closed at $9,300 (including 15% buy. prem.).
Subsequently, in June ’01, we were contacted by another collector who had yet a 3rd Grey Flannel jersey, this one a size 46 (LOA # M.N. 949B, 7/10/1995). On 9/3/01, Andy Imperato of GF was advised of the apparent existence of 4 jerseys—three authenticated/sold by GF, and one at the Pro Football Hall of Fame
In Aug 2002, American Memorabilia (AMI) offers one of this style jersey (size 48, unautographed, described as showing, “light QB wear” by authenticator Lou Lampson). The auction closes on 9/2/02, selling at $4,637, including 15% buy. prem.
In Oct 2004, AMI offers the 2nd Elway jersey of this style (size 48, autographed/pers (To Tom) in black, described as showing, “Awesome quarterback wear--check out the armpits in particular. There's heavy pilling…” by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic). The auction closed on 4/7/05, selling at $6,335, including 15% buy. prem. (See http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=10169 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=10169)). Contacting after the appearance of their 2nd jersey of this style was offered, AMI rep stated that, “we have to go by our authenticator’s opinion”.
In May 2005, ESC posts an article at its web site entitled, “Unique” Elway Jerseys Abound (see http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/newsarch.htm)) speculating that “…at least some of these jerseys may have originated from a lot that was created though a business partnership. In 1995 a Denver-area memorabilia dealer was contacted about purchasing the remaining stock of unused Wilson Throwback jersey blanks. The dealer acquired these jersey blanks—the same exact blanks as those provided to the team—and had the entire lot made up as Elway jerseys with appropriate numbers and nameplates. The dealer entered into an agreement with John Elway whereas, in exchange for his autograph on a number of the jerseys, which the dealer would retain for sale, John would be given a quantity in payment for his services, to do with as he wished. It is suspected that these likely were given away as gifts, donated for charitable functions and the like, with no way of telling exactly how many of these may now be circulating accompanied by "game worn" credentials.”
In Sep 2005, offers the 3rd Elway jersey of this style (size 48, autographed in silver, described as a, “lightly-used garment” by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic). The auction closed on 10/21/04, selling at $2,221, including 15% buy. Prem. (See http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=13525 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=13525)).
It would appear that this same jersey was consigned for AMI’s auction ending 4/26/07 (see lot # 30 at http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956)) and is described by authenticator Lou Lampson dba 100% Authentic, as exhibiting “Light quarterback wear, as would be expected from a style used for only a few games” (sic)
Also, in March 2007, Vintage Authentics offered a similarly styled jersey, this time in a size 46 and also authenticated by Lampson (see http://pics1.edeal.com/images/p2/wl/vintageauth/docs/elway94gujerslou6-50001.jpg (http://pics1.edeal.com/images/p2/wl/vintageauth/docs/elway94gujerslou6-50001.jpg)) who described the evidence of use for this jersey as “light apropos single game” (See http://vintageauthentics.at.truition... unbr=81766075 (http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=81419365&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=81766075))
Regards,

CollectGU
04-02-2007, 11:02 AM
FYI, I contacted AMI and offered them all the information posted, and theyhave agreed to pull this item from the current auction.

Regards,
Dave

Eric
04-02-2007, 11:24 AM
Dave

Thanks for following up on this and for giving us the info. What is more baffling is how mr lampson can keep writing letters on these jerseys if they were only used in 1 game.

I wonder what will happen to the one in vintage authentics...

EndzoneSports
04-02-2007, 05:15 PM
Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires.

Regards,

lund6771
04-02-2007, 06:03 PM
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...unfortunately, even though I hate to admit it, if something really sweet came along I'd probably go after it

everyone makes mistakes once in a while but this is a joke...the auction houses know exactly what's going on...they must have some great connections because 95% of their auctions contain the same garbage as the last one...and their next auction will continue the trend and so on...

by running an honest & ethical business is what will keep you around...I've seen MANY dealers come and go...at first, a lot of them ran a great gig, but unfortunately greed took over...I think that's the problem with today's auctions...GREED!!!!!...I believe that Meigray, without any comparison, runs the best customer-oriented business that I have seen in my 19 years of experience...100% guarentees, they take the time to fully inspect a product, and genuinly strive to make absolute, 100% sure, that they are selling an authentic product...

I believe that this site will be around for a long time, and we'll still be dealing with Meigray....but through historical trends, my money says that most of these auction houses, along with Lampson, won't be around in 5 years

kingjammy24
04-05-2007, 04:34 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." We'll see what transpires."

the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.

kingjammy24
04-05-2007, 04:52 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.

CollectGU
04-05-2007, 07:31 PM
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...unfortunately, even though I hate to admit it, if something really sweet came along I'd probably go after it

everyone makes mistakes once in a while but this is a joke...the auction houses know exactly what's going on...they must have some great connections because 95% of their auctions contain the same garbage as the last one...and their next auction will continue the trend and so on...

by running an honest & ethical business is what will keep you around...I've seen MANY dealers come and go...at first, a lot of them ran a great gig, but unfortunately greed took over...I think that's the problem with today's auctions...GREED!!!!!...I believe that Meigray, without any comparison, runs the best customer-oriented business that I have seen in my 19 years of experience...100% guarentees, they take the time to fully inspect a product, and genuinly strive to make absolute, 100% sure, that they are selling an authentic product...

I believe that this site will be around for a long time, and we'll still be dealing with Meigray....but through historical trends, my money says that most of these auction houses, along with Lampson, won't be around in 5 years


To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave

ChrisCavalier
04-06-2007, 12:13 PM
the elway is still up on VA. bidding is up to $1104. so i guess that's their answer?

both auction houses have lampson authenticate the same jersey and yet one decides to pull it and the other doesn't. it's a little confusing.

rudy.
Hello Everyone,

I'm trying to get caught up on things after having minor surgery last week and I have to say I find this thread fascinating. First of all, to Patrick and everyone who participated on this thread, I really have to say I think you guys have done a tremendous job explaining this situation.

I also have one question. Is it possible that Elway wore more than one jersey in the September 1994 game? Absent that possibility, I'm really trying to figure out how in the world this jersey is still being auctioned after a review of the information that has been presented here. If Elway did wear only one jersey in that game, why has this jersey not been pulled? :confused:

Has there not been enough evidence presented here to show a mistake was likely made when authenticating the jersey? Or, is there not at least enough information to show there are significant questions that need to be answered before a collector spends thousands of dollars on this jersey (the bidding is currently at about $1,700 with the premium with about a week left in the auction)?

Thanks in advance for any additional information that I might be missing.

Sincerely,
Chris

allstarsplus
04-06-2007, 03:24 PM
Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

Originally Posted by CollectGU http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=36819#post36819)
To be fair to the auction houses, we are looking at and complaining about 5- 10 jerseys, often the other 300 don't seem to have problems, and in fact there are some really nice items often offered. No excuse for the 5 -10 wrong, but if auction houses like AMI at least pull them when notified with a problem it means that things are changing for the better in the hobby.

Regards,
Dave
Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

mr.miracle
04-07-2007, 06:45 PM
"Steve J @ VA was also contacted via e-mail and he responded that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him."

actually, i'd like to see how that conversation went.

steve - "lou, there's a bit of a problem with this elway. it was only worn for 1 game and yet you've authenticated four of these. in fact, you authenticated one for AMI and then turned around and authenticated one for us in the same month!"

lou - "trust me victor, you've got THE ONE"

steve - "it's not victor. it's steve. from vintage authentics?"

lou - "vintage what? oh yeah, what's what i meant. steve. you've got it buddy"

steve - "well ok. but lou, the football hall of fame says they have the one"

lou - "football hall of fame?! what the hell do they know? do they have 8000 photos?"

steve - "well....probably. they.."

lou - "have they authenticated for the smithsonian? i'm LOU LAMPSON! do you hear me jensen? LAMPSON!!! the football hall of fame has nothing on me! say it with me steve, LAMPSON!!"

steve - "LAMPSON!!"

lou - "ok good. now don't bother me with these elways any more. pass me some of those 1989 bo jackson home jerseys. geezus i've done so many of these. who's this for again? vintage flannel?".

rudy.


Rudy:

You are hilarious, I cannot stop laughing.

mr.miracle
04-07-2007, 07:06 PM
Re: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?
Dave - Don't seem to have problems???? Just because 5-10 are being scrutinized doesn't mean the other 300 are "assumed" good. Sure, there are some nice items as every auction house needs to highlight their auctions with "nice items" or else we wouldn't open the auction catalog.

After college, I became a licensed CPA. When doing audits, you learn statistical sampling because you have to manage time and can't thouroughly go through every piece of inventory. For example, if 300 was the size of the inventory, you may randomly choose "say" 20% or 60 pieces to audit. Then you would tear through those 60 and figure out how many of those were good or bad. If 10 of the 60 were bad, then you would assume 50 of the entire 300 would be bad.

If we went through the other 300 in a one by one fashion, how many perfectly tagged light use would we find? The light use is sometimes a flip of the coin as the consignor is generally the one who knows if it was really game used or a game-issued that was rolled around in the back yard and washed. They are harder to scrutinize when they are MLB or NBA jerseys. Easier to scrutinize when they are NFL jerseys.

If we went through the other 300 and the auction houses disclosed who the seller was, how many problems would we then find? Many eBay sellers have left to the anonymous cyberspace of the auction houses you speak of. Now they can hide behind their anonymity and feed the auction houses with their junk and hope and pray they receive a LOA and big bids.

We often times also mistake heavy bidding and big prices for credibility too. How many of these auction houses are allowing fake bids and shills that often give an illusion of safety and hence attract legitimate bids.

Note to Chris ---Hope you are feeling better!

Andrew

Andrew:

You are right on with your assessment. Because there is nobody that is truly policing this industry besides this forum and perhaps several others, that take an interest in the items being sold through the auction houses, there is a very real possibility that many, many additional items never get pulled that are questionable at best.

Lets be honest, even with all the members of this forum that collect many different items, not even a fraction of the many many items in the various auctions throughout the year get overly scrutinized and are left to the word of the authenticator. Andrew is correct, if just a small sample is found to have inherent flaws, then if we looked at these auctions as a whole and critiqued each item in them, how many more would we honestly find that were very questionable to outright fraudulent???

I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

EndzoneSports
04-08-2007, 09:54 AM
I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.

Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,

allstarsplus
04-08-2007, 05:16 PM
Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Errors will occur and we have all made them, but when there is a pattern of these errors---is it really an error or perhaps something worse? That is certainly debatable. When there is easily obtainable photos or stats that would contradict a finding, is it an error made when the conclusion just isn't possible or plausible?

Here is Merriam Webster Dictionary definition of an error:

Main Entry: er·ror http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?error001.wav=error'))
Pronunciation: 'er-&r, 'e-r&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English errour, from Anglo-French, from Latin error, from errare
An act that through ignorance, deficiency, or accident departs from or fails to achieve what should be done <an error in judgment>


Originally Posted by Mr. Miracle
I think it is safe to say that almost every member of this forum would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole. It is almost to the point where you would rather not have any type of authentication on the item and do your own due diligence than trust or purchase anything that Lou has authenticated.
I agree with Brett, if it has a Lou Lampson LOA/COA, I'm not buying and agree I would rather have no cert with the item.


Originally Posted by Lund6771
VA, AMI and others that use Lampson must be in this business for the short term...any business that has a good plan would cut off ties with a supplier/vendor immediately if they consistantly screwed up...they must have many upset customers and upset customers are not repeat customers...I know that I'm not and I'm sure there is many more of you out there that feel the same...

Agreed, and reps from those Auction Houses certainly read the Forum. I don't get it.

Andrew

mr.miracle
04-08-2007, 10:27 PM
Brett:

There are indeed flaws in the authentication process, one of the most obvious being that it is not an exact science, but rather one of educated opinions. With this, errors will no doubt be made. We can debate until the fat lady sings about who makes more errors and/or whose mistakes are the most egregious, but the fact that they have made (and will continue to make) mistakes is a given.

Being part of an entity whose mission centers on research, education and historical preservation, I am a staunch advocate of collectors doing their own homework and coming to an educated guess on their own. However, having both utilized and provided authentication services, I am fully aware of the pros and cons on both sides of this issue. I also realize that there is a significant part of our collecting community that is reliant upon, and thus creates a demand for the 3rd party authentication services. This includes those in the business of selling (directly and via consignment), who want to at least give the appearance of staying at arm's length re: claims of authenticity as well as those purchasers, who, either through inexperience or lack of available resources, are reliant upon the opinions of those in the business of 3rd-party authentication.

As long as the demand for these services continues, those brave enough to offer these services will continue to thrive... And due to the nature of the process, mistakes will continue to be made. Comprised of both niche experts and passionate hobbyists, this forum provides an exceptional quality check for the authentication process. When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large as well as to the sellers; hopefully this will always be done in a professional and courteous manner. In kind, it is hoped that this information will be assessed and an appropriate response (via words or actions) given. In a great number of instances, feedback from this forum as resulted in items being pulled from auctions/sales, thus benefiting the hobby as a whole.

Regards,



Patrick:

There is little doubt that as long as there are professional authenticators mistakes will be made by all. We can all reference discussed on this very forum from every authenticator out there that has been questionable at best over the years. However, that being said, the fact that time after time, over and over, item after item after item that is authenticated by Lou Lampson has been proven to be not only questionable but downright erroneous in every sense of the word.

If Lampson has over 8000 photos in his personal collection, perhaps he should add a few more by photographing items he has authenticated. That way when he references them against new items he could at least prevent the current situation with the Elway jersey from happening so that he would not look like a complete buffoon on a repeated basis.

At some point, the reputation of these auction houses that continue to use Lou Lampson's services is going to suffer and perhaps in some cases they already have. As the reputation of this very forum continues to grow and its membership ranks swell, the continuous flow of worthless LOA's that Lampson writes will continue to come up in debate on this forum for all to see. Real or not, authentic or not, as this continues nobody will purchase anything authenticated by Lampson at least if they spend any time reading the weekly comedy routine on this forum that is the Lou Lampson authentication process. Actually, it is more like a greek tragedy as hard working individuals are trusting that this man has done his utmost to ensure that the items he is authenticating are what they are portrayed to be. People are dumping tens of thousands of dollars per item in some cases into items that are complete garbage and as it has been pointed out on this forum before, Lampson is laughing all the way to the bank.

It was pointed out on this forum before that even when AMI or Vintage has contacted Lampson about very, very questionable items and presented to him the issues raised, he has more or less said trust me, it is real. That is some level of reassurance and certainly goes a long way toward clarifying issues surrounding the items.

Nobody is perfect and nobody expects anybody to be perfect however we do expect Mr. Lampson to do his job and do it right. As it stands now, it looks like he is more concerned with quantity over quality and rubber stamping as many items with his seal of approval as he can.

Does anybody know how I can go into the memorabilia authentication industry??? Outside of weathermen I am not sure what other career allows one to make so many mistakes and still retain a job.

EndzoneSports
04-09-2007, 07:46 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not defending the track record of Mr. Lampson. I have been just as critical of mistakes made by Lou, Bernie Gernay, Grey Flannel, etc.--in fact our position is one of being critical of the hobby's reliance upon 3rd-party authentication as a whole.

Our point was simply stating the deficiencies of the process as a whole. Though imperfect, this is a situation where one (in this case the GUU collecting community) must be careful for what they ask for, lest their request be answered. In the early to mid-90s, when our specific genre of collecting really took off, the rapid increase in demand led to an escalation of prices. With the increase in the amount of money involved came the temptation for the less scrupulous to engage in fraud and deceit. In order to combat those who would perpetrate less than forthright dealings, the concept of 3rd-party authentication arose. Unless, as a collecting community, we can find a way to remove the possibility for fraud/deceit in the items that we covet, the need/demand for 3rd-party authentication will remain.

In an arena of such uncertainty, newer, less experienced collectors--who lack the experience/resources to formulate their own educated opinions--must continue to rely upon the opinions of others as they make their purchasing decisions. Likewise, even amongst more experienced veteran collectors, there remains a segment that seems to sleep better at night, knowing that someone else's opinion agrees with their own before laying out what can be the cash equivalent of a quality used car for "someone else’s dirty shirt" (as my wife puts it).

In the face of continued uncertainty, I offer collectors a bit of advice... No item, unless personally removed from the back of the athlete following a sporting event, can be attributed as such with absolute certainty. As we all know, only a miniscule percentage of game worn/used items make it directly into the hands of collectors in this fashion. As such, some amount of faith in the process is required--faith in the nature of the displayed physical characteristics, faith in the provenance, faith in the opinion of an authenticator, faith in the reputation of the seller. At face value, each of these elements should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism, and reconciled to a point of a "comfort level" for each individual purchaser. Where some whom might rely more heavily upon authentication would state that they "would not touch something authenticated by Lampson with a ten foot pole", others would likely just approach such an item as if it had not been authenticated at all, preferring to pass their own judgment on the items' other merits.

How individual collectors/purchasers come to such reconciliation is really a personal matter. I was fortunate enough to have come into this hobby at a time when the items at hand were not the high-dollar commodity that they’ve become today. At the time when I was still an inexperienced newcomer to the hobby, a relative degree of certainty regarding an item’s authenticity was inherent simply by its’ purchase from one of the two or three legitimate dealers who dealt in such obscure collectibles. Fast forward to today, where I feel that my level of knowledge has elevated to a point of being able to almost completely disregard a seller’s unverifiable claims of provenance and/or an authenticator’s opinion, replacing them with my own opinion.

In deference to those collectors caught in between (neither a newcomer nor an expert be), I would again contend that the collective knowledge of the members of this forum is one of the best available resources when uncertainty arises. The fact is that Lou Lampson/MEARS/Grey Flannel/Bernie Gernay/ad infinitum will continue to make mistakes. While some will make fewer than others and some will be better about how those mistakes are rectified, these will still occur. Accepting this, I stand by my assertion that we owe it to the collecting community to share our knowledge and insight.

As a side-bar… In addition to our duty to share information that may be helpful to other collectors, comes the need to share that information responsibly. In my nearly two decades in this hobby’s pursuit, one absolute that I have established is that nearly nothing is sacred. Fonts vary, tagging inconsistencies exist, color variations occur. In offering advice to others, we need to be cautious in the application of absolutes—“always” and “never” are indeed true rarities in this hobby and should be seldom used. About the only absolute in this hobby is that nothing is absolute. Caution should be exercised when pointing out such inconsistencies. Not that such inconsistencies and shouldn't be pointed out as they often discredit an item, however, at times, the existence of these does not necessarily make an item bad/wrong. Often, irresponsible inferences to such "bad/wrong" items can be damaging to otherwise legitimate items.

Regards,

G1X
04-09-2007, 08:35 AM
Patrick's last post is perhaps the best thing ever written in this forum. These words of wisdom should be required reading of everyone involved in this hobby.

Clip it out and keep a copy in your wallet or pin it to your bulletin board. You will never get any better advice about this hobby than what Patrick has just given.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

hiramman
04-09-2007, 10:18 AM
I for one will not buy or bid on an item if it is backed up with a Lou Lampson authentication letter. If he has authenticated it, then I just ignore the auction. If enough people do that, the auction houses will have to respond.

lund6771
04-09-2007, 10:18 PM
anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

EndzoneSports
04-10-2007, 01:12 AM
anyone have any explanation as to why this thing is not pulled yet?????....is Lampson's opinion worth more than a guy who works at the HOF?????...come on!!!!

I sent an email to Steve Jensen of Vinatge Auctions and he responded on 4/2 that he was "going to see Lou later today and will be discussing this with him." Having heard nothing further in a week, I sent a follow-up e-mail to Steve early on the morning of the 9th inquiring as to what came of the conversation; as of this time, I've not yet received a response.

Regards,

lund6771
04-11-2007, 06:14 PM
Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

EndzoneSports
04-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Patrick...any word from VA on this shirt yet?

Rob:

I've not heard anything back, but I would imagine that they must have a great deal of confidence in this being the one legitimate sample since the auction is still open. Even if convinced that their authenticator was right on this occasion, what does that say for his track record regarding the 2 (or 3) that were previously authenticated for AMI?

It's somewhat of a sad state when the auction houses lie in hiding, shielded from culpability behind the "opinion" of their paid authenticators, even in the face of clear evidence that the same authenticator has pulled the wool over the colletive eyes of the hobby on multiple occasions.

Regards,

CollectGU
04-12-2007, 08:34 AM
Given the information, AMI pulled theirs immediately and I am told will no longer offer that style at auction again....

Dave

Eric
04-12-2007, 10:28 AM
I absolutely appreciate American Memorabilia's stance here. It's great that they'll never offer one of these again, even though their authenticator says it's "game used"

It's refreshing that AMI is willing to override the authenticator.

I applaud everyone's efforts here which put all of this in motion.

Perhaps that might mean the end of auction houses saying "Well the authenticator said it's good, then it's good" when actual evidence is offered

Eric

lund6771
04-12-2007, 03:25 PM
I agree that it's great what AMI's stance on this is....but I think it's just a sugar coating because the real problem is Lampson, and as long as they continue to use him they will have many issues...they would be sooo much more respected if they got rid of that guy

VA's stance is absolutely dispicable

Eric
04-13-2007, 08:46 AM
FYI- This ended (not counting the buyer's fee) at $2071.88

EndzoneSports
04-17-2007, 04:48 PM
FYI- This ended (not counting the buyer's fee) at $2071.88

... and without our ever having received a response to our e-mail of 4/9 to Steve Jensen re: his intent to dialog with Lou on this item.

Best regards,

beantown
04-22-2007, 09:47 PM
Hang on...here's another one!

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=707&Lot_No=19921

Eric
03-07-2008, 07:01 PM
The Elway throwback which was listed and pulled off the auction block by AMI at the top of this thread is now available in Vintage Authentics.

Photos from the pulled AMI listing show the autograph and threads surrounding match the current Vintage Authentics listing.

Vintage Authentics
http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=92117034&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=92463744

AMI
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956

Interesting to note that the pulled AMI listing is now headlined "ASK VICTOR Being Sold FOR BOB CASE for this 1994 John Elway Game-Worn, Signed Throwback Broncos Jersey"

Is Bob Case the same Bob Case that's a member of the 100% Authentic Team of authenticators that they use? If so, might that be conflict of interest?

I would ask those questions to the good people at AMI, but they stopped responding to my questions long ago.....

Dave O'Brien, you were incredibly helpful in getting this jersey pulled from the original auction

(see http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=40753&postcount=9 )

Any chance you can find out if Bob Case was the consignor and is a member of the 100% Authentic team? Also, does AMI allow its authenticators to consign items?

Thank you
Eric

lund6771
03-08-2008, 08:45 AM
The Elway throwback which was listed and pulled off the auction block by AMI at the top of this thread is now available in Vintage Authentics.

Photos from the pulled AMI listing show the autograph and threads surrounding match the current Vintage Authentics listing.

Vintage Authentics
http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=92117034&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=92463744

AMI
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=35956

Interesting to note that the pulled AMI listing is now headlined "ASK VICTOR Being Sold FOR BOB CASE for this 1994 John Elway Game-Worn, Signed Throwback Broncos Jersey"

Is Bob Case the same Bob Case that's a member of the 100% Authentic Team of authenticators that they use? If so, might that be conflict of interest?

I would ask those questions to the good people at AMI, but they stopped responding to my questions long ago.....

Dave O'Brien, you were incredibly helpful in getting this jersey pulled from the original auction

(see http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=40753&postcount=9 )

Any chance you can find out if Bob Case was the consignor and is a member of the 100% Authentic team? Also, does AMI allow its authenticators to consign items?

Thank you
Eric


Eric...it is the same Bob Case...

from what I've heard, there are many top items in AMI's auctions that come from their authenticators....ie Case and Lampson

again, this is what I've heard from reliable people...sometimes the items actually sell and sometimes they are just for show to make it look like they have nice items in every auction....these guys are protected from their items selling for less than what they would get rid of them for...

skipcareyisfat
03-08-2008, 11:29 AM
When did Lifetime start making documentaries on "game used" jerseys? That's the sappiest auction I've ever seen.

Eric
03-08-2008, 01:18 PM
American Memorabilia has taken down the information on the Elway that they pulled from auction. But don't worry, that information is still available here...

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:WpPieM9qAtoJ:www.americanmemorabili a.com/Auction_Item.asp%3FAuction_ID%3D35956+%22bob+case% 22+elway&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=safari

Dave O'Brien, I know you're very close with the people at American Memorabilia. Any chance you can get answers to the questions I posed before? I'm sure collectors would appreciate knowing if they allow their authenticators to consign items.

Thanks

CollectGU
03-08-2008, 02:01 PM
I haven't asked but I think that Bob can consign something as long as he doesn't authenticate it. What would be the problem there? I think this is done at many auction houses...

Regards,
Dave

Eric
03-08-2008, 02:54 PM
How do we know who authenticates it? The authenticators are listed as the "100% Authentic team" and he's listed as a member of the team.

Also, on AMI's site, they describe the authentication process
"Standards and Criteria
Each item is examined and handled by our team of experts. First, we have our team sift out any lightly-used or game-issued jerseys. Second, the appropriate authenticator is consulted to examine the jerseys and/or equipment based on their expertise and knowledge in that particular sport. Third, the jersey or equipment must display evidence of acceptable use or have player/team provenance."

Then it says "100% Authentic opinion is not based on only one experts opinion, but rather is a compilation of information through various sources and experts."

How specifically do we know who looks at the items? I would assume then that more than one person puts his/her name on the COA.

If you're saying AMI does not allow consignors to authenticate their own items then that would remove a conflict of interest.

In response to your question- it's not that there's a problem, it's that valuable information about conflicts of interest or lack thereof should be shared with potential buyers.

One more question- why did AMI take down the Elway/Bob Case page i referred to?

Thanks in advance for your help
Eric

lund6771
03-08-2008, 04:20 PM
I haven't asked but I think that Bob can consign something as long as he doesn't authenticate it. What would be the problem there? I think this is done at many auction houses...

Regards,
Dave

Very interesting Dave...Can you tell us who the consignor is of this jersey that was in AMI's last auction?....you only need one guess...

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=41053

nyjetsfan14
03-09-2008, 02:00 PM
The title of the thread: 2 Elway White 94 Throwbacks- What are the odds?

I would think that most if not all experienced NFL collectors would know/understand the odds are obviously pretty good. The amount of "shock" by posters in this thread amazes me to be honest. As a Jets fan I know that there are many more "game worn" Joe Namath jerseys on the market than really is acceptable. Is this because they are fakes? Well I am sure a couple might be but for the most part any knowledgeable Jets/NFL collector understands the Jets made up many Namath jerseys in the locker room for the purposes of Joe or another Jets rep to give away (also a reason why so many have different attributes such as NOB directly on verso, etc...). It also happened when Lott and Boomer joined the Jets as well - you see many of thier pieces floating around. It doesn't suprise me at all to you see multiple Elway throwbacks. Determining which one(s) were game used might be tough considering the limited games used so any buyer would have to really bear down and do some serious research...why leave it to or depend on Lampson or any other authenticator? It stands to reason that many of the older more popular players had extra jerseys made up (in the locker room) for the purpose of meeting demand for giving them away.

Eric
03-09-2008, 05:22 PM
People's shock in this thread was over two jerseys listed as "game used" the style of which was only worn in one game- the jerseys were two different sizes in two different auction houses simultaneously and authenticated by the same person- Lou Lampson.

American Memorabilia did the right thing and took theirs down because of the evidence presented to them.

Lampson has again put his name on the COA of that jersey pulled from AMI and it's now being offered as "game used" in Vintage Authentics. I emailed Steve at Vintage Authentics and will let people know when I hear back.
Eric

mvandor
03-09-2008, 05:45 PM
People's shock in this thread was over two jerseys listed as "game used" the style of which was only worn in one game- the jerseys were two different sizes in two different auction houses simultaneously and authenticated by the same person- Lou Lampson.

American Memorabilia did the right thing and took theirs down because of the evidence presented to them.

Lampson has again put his name on the COA of that jersey pulled from AMI and it's now being offered as "game used" in Vintage Authentics. I emailed Steve at Vintage Authentics and will let people know when I hear back.
Eric
You neglected to add that the actual Elway jersey worn in that ONE game that this style was worn is in Canton in the HOF, thus unless he changed at halftime, not a single one on the market was "game used".

lund6771
03-09-2008, 10:09 PM
I'd also like to know what the trail is from Bob Case to Vintage Authentics...

Eric
03-10-2008, 05:14 PM
Just heard from Steve at Vintage Authentics. Big time credit to them- they have pulled the Elway jersey from their auction.

They did the right thing. I wonder how it got there.
Thanks
Eric

lund6771
03-10-2008, 08:02 PM
Hey Eric...

did he tell you who the consignor was?...or offer any other info?

Eric
03-10-2008, 08:15 PM
He did not say who the consignor is.

lund6771
03-10-2008, 08:40 PM
Thanks Eric...

I guess Dave O'Brien must have suddenly left for vacation since he hasn't responded to the questions posed to him...

CollectGU
03-11-2008, 07:45 AM
Not on vacation Pete, just closed on a new home and am now moving in and it is taking up much of my time.

Regards,
Dave

lund6771
03-11-2008, 10:44 AM
good luck on your move!!!!...

lund6771
03-19-2008, 08:48 PM
Hi Dave..

any chance that you might have found the time to get some answers to the questions posed in this thread?


Thanks!!!

lund6771
03-20-2008, 09:51 PM
Dave...how's the move going?

I've seen that you've "had the time" to post on other threads, but not this one...how come?

mvandor
03-20-2008, 10:23 PM
Dave...how's the move going?

I've seen that you've "had the time" to post on other threads, but not this one...how come?

You know as well as I ole Dave only posts to defend ye olde auction houses. He obviously feels he can't spin adequately on this one.

lund6771
03-20-2008, 10:48 PM
mvandor..that's been obvious for a long time...the minute that there is conclusive evidence, Dave goes on vacation...or he's moving...blah blah blah...

anyone with a heartbeat can see the picture

CollectGU
03-21-2008, 08:05 AM
Dave...how's the move going?

I've seen that you've "had the time" to post on other threads, but not this one...how come?

because this thead was highjacked by you and turned into the normal pissing match where you discredit AMI because you are not allowed to bid in their auctions, ask me for answers to questions I can't answer because I don't work there and then ask me if I have the answers. here goes:

I have no idea who's walter payton jersey it was, but it had to be one of the nicest in the hobby..agree?
They pulled the notes on the Elway from what I understand because that those notes were in their back end and they feared that someone had gotten in their system...
Bob Case will help them from time to time on authentications, and he's pretty well respected by many in the hobby..Agree?

This thread is going nowhere again..So now you can come back and reply and begin the process I discussed above all over again...

Regards,
Dave

lund6771
03-21-2008, 03:41 PM
because this thead was highjacked by you and turned into the normal pissing match where you discredit AMI because you are not allowed to bid in their auctions, ask me for answers to questions I can't answer because I don't work there and then ask me if I have the answers. here goes:

I have no idea who's walter payton jersey it was, but it had to be one of the nicest in the hobby..agree?
They pulled the notes on the Elway from what I understand because that those notes were in their back end and they feared that someone had gotten in their system...
Bob Case will help them from time to time on authentications, and he's pretty well respected by many in the hobby..Agree?

This thread is going nowhere again..So now you can come back and reply and begin the process I discussed above all over again...

Regards,
Dave


Dave..thanks for the reply I guess...

One thing that I would like to make clear to you and I won't bring it up again...I am not upset with AMI because I am not allowed to bid in their auctions...In fact, I'm not upset at all...I wouldn't give them one penny of my money and will laugh when they go bankrupt..but in the mean time I will warn people about them because of the lies and shill bidding...you might call it 'protection"

anyways, this thread took a diversion when Eric asked about AMI's auhenticators' consigning & authenticating their own items...It sure as hell is a conflict of interest and it happens all the time...so how is this hijacking ?...the Payton is a perfect example...it doesn't matter how nice it is, it's still beng consigned and authenticated by the same individual....which is called what?....CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!!!

lund6771
03-22-2008, 10:20 AM
Forgot to add another question in previous post...Since Bob Case is so respected in this hobby, I'd sure like to know why in his colorful resume on Ami's website, his tenure with California Numismatics Investments is excluded...can you please explain this to the collecting community?

Eric
03-22-2008, 10:41 AM
Who is the consignor of the Walter Payton jersey and how do you know?

lund6771
03-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Eric...Bob Case was the consignor of the Payton jersey...I heard that from different sources who don't know each other...he was also self promoting his items before the auction started

34swtns
03-25-2008, 09:35 AM
Regarding the Payton AMI jersey:

I've said it a hundred times already......Walter Payton only ever wore a size 42. From 1975 to 1988. First game to last game.....size 42.
This is fact, straight from the mouths of 2 former Bears equipment staffers and confirmed by a very respected Bears vintage gamer collector.
People who have bought or sold size 44's and 46's can get pissy and defensive all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if it's not a 42.....
IT'S A FAKE. Period.

I stopped alerting buyers/sellers, auction houses to this fact a long time ago. I've seen dozens of Payton "gamers" bought and sold that were nothing more than retail authentics doctored to look like gamers. Keep in mind, the Bears authentics of the 80's were EXACTLY like the gamers in every way. And Payton was the most popular Bear during this period so there are literally thousands of potential "gamers" floating around out there. But nobody wants to hear it. People refuse to believe that they've been had, and that's understandable. But it doesn't change the facts.

Eric
03-25-2008, 10:12 AM
What's your opinion on these? Specifically what about jerseys tagged 42 that measure to 44?

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=41053

High Bid:$8,346
Auction Closed: 02/07/2008
From 100 percent authentic




1985-86 Walter Payton Game-Used Bears Jersey (w/Multiple Team Repairs)

41053

2/7/2008
$8,346



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)
The collector-preferred style of Walter Payton gamer is an early-career, pre-“GSH” sleeve designator. That is, of course, unless it's an ’84-86 GSH version sourced directly from Payton himself. In the late summer of ’86, one of the star's acquaintances waited three hours for Walter to emerge from the Lake Forest locker room. There, from a pillow case type satchel Payton produced this home jersey.
All of the required specs are evident: diagonal shoulder seams; two-color, uniquely fonted numerals and NOB, "GSH" designator, straight-stitch affixed nameplate, and a Wilson size “44” label affixed in black straight stitch. What separates this gem from others is the delicious wear of the label and affixing thread, the smattering of repairs, the upper torso surface wear, numerous disengaged seam threads and the surface wear/fading of the numerals and NOB.
No, it is not destroyed, but the wear is consistent and proven in all respects. Score it a “10” on features and a “10” for ‘80s perseverance and provenance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From 100 percent authentic




1984-86 Walter Payton Game-Worn Bears Jersey w/Team Repairs

27122

4/7/2006
$4,484



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)
Walter Payton didn't dart and dash his way past the incomparable Jim Brown to set the all-time rushing record. No, Sweetness ran through the opposition and dished out just as much as he received. If Payton was near a sideline, he looked to unload on somebody rather than scamper out of bounds. He eventually overtook Brown and is still regarded by many as the best running back to ever take the field. This "42" road jersey was worn by Payton in the mid '80s, when he was chasing Brown and winning the majority of his games. The jersey itself physically measures to a 44, which was the usual size worn by Payton. Great use is shown on the white shirt with two team instituted repairs. The first is located on the right sleeve, while the second is found near the verso "3." A number of hit marks appear on the right side "3" and on the front numerals. All of the identifiers are screened on in heavy plasticized font. What appears to be washed out blood is located on the verso "4"."PAYTON" is screened on to the nameplate. Overall, great use is shown on the jersey. The two repairs and multitude of hits marks equal a winner of a jersey. According to jersey authenticator Lou Lampson, "The jersey shows game wear, consistent for a back like Payton, who averaged 20-30 "touches" per game and was considered an active blocker when he didn't have the ball. There is evidence of turf burns and dings in the arm and shoulder areas as well as team repairs."
-----------------------------------------------------------------




Walter Payton Mid-80’s Game-Worn Bears Jersey

24537

12/9/2005
$3,062



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)

[SIZE=2]Walter Payton battered and bashed his way to the record books and into the hearts of millions with his relentless style. Nobody exemplified the blue-collar city of Chicago like Sweetness did. It didn't matter if the Bears were trailing by 20 points, Payton always gave the game everything he had and left it all on the field. This midnight navy mesh jersey shows tremendous use with deep hit marks in the shoulder area from constant poundings. The [size] "42" shirt has Wilson styled diagonal shoulder seams with the rational sleeve striping and GSH mourning initials screened onto the left sleeve. All of the identifiers, including the NOB, are screened on in unique two-color orange and white. "PAYTON" has been screened onto a nameplate and then applied to the jersey. Heavy scuffing also appears on the verso "A" and two other deep hit marks have made their way onto the nameplate. While the jersey measures to a [size] "44," the Wilson tagging in the tail reads "42." The alpha numeric identifiers have light screening mil depth unlike most exemplars which feature thick mil depth. The jersey shows great wear with two minor team-instituted repairs appear on the shoulder and near the nameplate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game-Worn, Signed Jersey

14696

3/24/2005
$5,509



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)

Besides Michael Jordan, there has been no man who has meant more to the city of Chicago. Walter Payton was a superior being on the football field, but most importantly, he was a quality person. Offered is an absolutely masterful game-used Chicago Bears home jersey worn in the mid-80's by the man with a God-given ability that got the most out of it at every possible chance. This Wilson (size) "44" shirt, exhibiting light but evident wear, has been signed by Walter and inscribed to "Matt," with "Sweetness" in blue ink. All screened-on identifiers, in addition to "GSH" on the sleeve stripe screening, completes this Hall of Fame piece.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



Mid 80's Walter Payton Game Used Jersey, Signed.

13263

12/9/2004
$8,066



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)

Home midnight navy mesh jersey from 84-87 era with GSH inscription screened onto left sleeve stripe pattern. The tail label (Wilson 44) is the plastic variety, not optimal but used by the club on gamers none the less. All identifiers screened on as apropo. Autographed on back numeral. Underarm and rear neckline pulling with two team repairs. The jersey was stained and has glue remnants along shoulders, seams, and sleeves. It's barely noticeable from a short viewing distance but noticeable to the touch.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
1984-86 Walter Payton Bears Game Worn Jersey.

6208

6/17/2004
$3,763



http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingThumb.gif (http://www.100percentauthentic.com/pics/MissingFull.gif)
A Championship-era representation from one of the greatest running backs in the history of the N.F.L. Jersey expert Lou Lampson's highly detailed letter of authenticity explains that all aspects of this rare white road style are correct, from the diagonal front seams extending from the collar to the shoulder seams, to the way the memorial "GSH" is screened on the left sleeve. Payton's name is screened across the shoulders, and his immortal number "34" is screened on chest, back and sleeves. Wear is tremendous, with evidence of various turf burns and dings, and scattered team repairs. "Wilson [size] 42" tagging in tail, though the jersey physically measures to a 44, which was the usual style worn by Payton. A Hall of Fame quality shirt.

Eric
03-25-2008, 11:02 AM
Here's a size 46
sold at heritage for Sold for: $4,182.50
Authenticated by Lou Lampson
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=708&Lot_No=20010&src=pr#
Circa 1986-87 Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> Owned and operated by the inimitable Sweetness during the closing seasons of his Hall of Fame career, this navy mesh Bears gamer rates among the most desirable gamers of the last quarter century. Unmistakable at first glance, the orange and white number "34" and George Halas memorial monogram transport us back to the days of "The Super Bowl Shuffle" when Chicago was the capital of the football world. Rear nameplate, noted as ever so slightly darker than the rest of the jersey, features "Payton" screened in proper white and orange paint. Wear is light, though authenticator Bushing notes "numerous properly placed hit marks on jersey." Tail tagging reads "Wilson [size] 46," not uncommon for Payton when needing extra room inside his jersey for cold weather games. A blue sharpie signature on verso shows some hazing, but provides Payton's own seal of approval. Final grade is A6. LOA from Dave Bushing. LOA from Lou Lampson. LOA from PSA/DNA (autograph). LOA from James Spence Authentication (autograph).</B>

Here's a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $5078.75
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=707&Lot_No=19914&src=pr
Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> When it comes to 1980's football jerseys, it doesn't get much sweeter than Sweetness, who entered the National Football League as the Chicago Bears' first round draft pick in 1975 and left it as the all-time leader in rushing and combined net yards. The jersey that most of us picture in our minds when we think of this sadly departed superstar is the style we present here, the white mesh gamer sported by this rushing legend during the era of "The Super Bowl Shuffle." The number "34" on front, back and sleeves and "Payton" on rear nameplate are screened-on white with orange trim, and the font is unique and correct for a Bears game jersey of the mid 1980's. The "GSH" screened-on designator, which is superimposed on the middle left sleeve stripe, is correct in font size and shape and helps date the jersey to the 1984-86 Bears Championship era, the latter portion of Payton's illustrious career. There are no alterations of any kind to the jersey. Left front tail holds a proper "Wilson [size] 44" label. Buttoned crotch piece and elasticized side panels are in place. Fine wear is evident, with a scattering of small team repairs and a good assortment of nicks and dings on the shoulders. A Hall of Fame caliber shirt, just like the man who wore it. LOA from Lou Lampson.</B>

Here is a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $3346
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=705&Lot_No=19437&src=pr
1984-86 Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> Direct from the "Super Bowl Shuffle" era comes this midnight navy mesh home gamer worn by Sweetness during his most productive years at Soldier Field. The style is Payton's most recognizable, with white and orange screenprinting announcing his immortal number "34" on chest, back and sleeves, and "Payton" screened in similar fashion across rear nameplate. Sleeve striping includes the memorial to George Halas on the left. "Wilson [size] 44" label in tail shows fine wear to match the rather sizeable team repairs present in the chest, shoulder and sleeve areas. Three letters in Payton's name have become slightly disengaged near the top, but not to the point that they inhibit display, and they could certainly be glued back down if desired. Payton's relevance to the sport of football is undeniable, and shortly before his death in 1999 he was ranked number eight on The Sporting News'</B> list of the hundred greatest football players. He was the highest-ranked Chicago Bear (just ahead of Dick Butkus at number nine) and the second-highest rated running back behind Jim Brown. Any game worn jersey from this iconic star is worthy of Canton and the finest football collections. LOA from Lou Lampson

Here is a size 44 which sold at Heritage for $4182.50
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=703&Lot_No=19212&src=pr
Mid-1980's Walter Payton Game Worn Jersey.</I> When it comes to 1980's football jerseys, it doesn't get much sweeter than Sweetness, who entered the National Football League as the Chicago Bears' first round draft pick in 1975 and left it as the all-time leader in rushing and combined net yards. The jersey that most of us picture in our minds when we think of this sadly departed superstar is the style we present here, the navy blue mesh gamer sported by this rushing legend during the era of "The Super Bowl Shuffle." The number "34" on front, back and sleeves and "Payton" on rear nameplate are screened-on white with orange trim, and the font is unique and correct for a Bear's game jersey of the mid 1980's. The "GSH" screened-on designator, which is superimposed on the middle left sleeve stripe, is correct in font size and shape and helps date the jersey to the 1984-86 Bears Championship era, the later portion of Payton's illustrious career. There are no alterations of any kind to the jersey. Left front tail holds a proper "Wilson [size] 44" label. Wear is light but definite. A Hall of Fame caliber shirt, just like the man who wore it. LOA from Lou Lampson.</B>

Here is a size 46 which sold at Heritage for $4899.50
http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=701&Lot_No=19491&src=pr
Walter Payton Mid-1980s Game-Worn Chicago Bears Jersey</I> Prepare to do The Super Bowl Shuffle,</B> as this spectacular representation of "Sweetness"' blue mesh gamer dates directly from the era of that unforgettable Championship season. Considered the most desirable style of all Payton game worn jerseys, this specimen jumps ahead of the rare few that exist today with the offering of tremendous wear, particularly evident in the team repairs to the right sleeve (multiple), left sleeve and chest. Various scuffs and scrapes are particularly centralized around the shoulder area. Number "34" is screened in orange and white to chest, sleeves and back, where "Payton" is screened across a plate on the shoulders. The memorial "GSH" for "Pappa Bear" George Halas is present on the left sleeve. Proper "Wilson [size] 46" tagging appears in the lower left front tail. Finally, a blue sharpie signature rounds out the package on the rear numerals. With a lightly used, and damaged, representation selling for over $9,000 at auction in March of this year, we expect great interest in this far superior example. LOA from Dan Knoll, Dave Bushing & Lou Lampson/SCD Authentic.

Eric
03-25-2008, 11:20 AM
Here is a Walter Payton size 44 which sold at Grey Flannel for $1680
http://www.greyflannelauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=17303
Mild mannered off the field and smooth as butter on the field, the late HOFer Walter "Sweetness" Payton ran away with our hearts. Payton, a nine-time Pro Bowl choice, missed only one game in his career and earned his only Super Bowl ring in 1985. Payton was a versatile back whose runs always ended with him fighting for that extra yard. He accumulated 77 100-yard performances, 21,264 combined rushing/receiving yards and 125 career touchdowns. The right back tail has the "Wilson" manufacturers tag with jersey size "44." On the front, rear, and both sleeves is the player number "34" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. Below the numbers on the left sleeve is "GSH" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. There is a blue name plate on the rear with the name "PAYTON" in white on orange heavy vinyl lettering. The jersey shows little to no wear and appears to have no alterations of any kind.

34swtns
03-25-2008, 01:37 PM
See previous post. ;)

I've seen every one of those you listed. In fact, I keep a database of all Bears Wilson jerseys sold at auction over the last few years and there have been even more Payton "gamers" sold on ebay. Substantially more.
All the wrong size.

Like I said before, I stopped trying to warn people because they don't want to listen. That's fine, it's their money.

And it's not just Payton who gets misrepresented size-wise. Most Bears "gamers" that have been sold at auction over the period of the last 4 years have all been fakes, in my opinion.
I have a size listing for most Bears "star" players from the 1980's and maybe 1 in 10 that comes up for sale is actually the right size for the player. And then there's the issue of game-use evidence. The Bears organization is well known for their (let's call it "frugallity"). Players were generally only given 2 home jerseys and 2 away jerseys per season. That being said, any legitimate Bears gamers would show substantial amounts of wear, including several team repairs. Most recent Bears "gamers" seem to have a lack of any serious wear. That coupled with the sizing issue discounts far more of these recent examples than substantiates them.
Bottom line....there's a whole lotta folks out there paying big money for items that are just simply not legitimate.

34swtns
03-25-2008, 01:44 PM
Oh, and as for your "size 42 that measures closer to a 44" question.........

my guess would be that the tagging has been switched.

I've never, and I repeat never, seen a legitimate Bears Wilson jersey (game used OR retail authentic) in which the size did not match the tag. I can't say unequivocally that they don't exist.......I've just never seen one. And I've had probably around a hundred go through my hands, for what that's worth.

BULBUS
03-25-2008, 01:51 PM
Doesn't all of these "game used" Payton jerseys selling on auction sites (including ebay) raise a red flag to the authenticators? I know that Walter enjoyed a nice career in the NFL, but there can not be that many legitamate gamers out there hitting the market. I feel bad for the buyers shelling out all that cash for a jersey that is not what they thought.

commando
03-25-2008, 02:08 PM
Authenticators unwittingly corner themselves over time... Let's say Authenticator "A" analyzed a 1994 Elway throwback jersey three years ago. At the time, he felt the tags looked good, the game use looked good, etc., so he issued a letter for the jersey. Lo and behold, a year later, another one comes across his path to be authenticated. It is similar to the one he authenticated the year before, so how can he NOT give his blessings on this one? What if THIS one is the real thing, and not the one from a year ago?

At this point he does what he has to do. He writes a letter for the second jersey too.

Of course, the authenticator is praying to Jah above that a third jersey doesn't come his way. He's also praying that at least one of those two jerseys stay tucked away in a private collection for a loooong time.

Ten years ago, scenarios like this would go unnoticed unless someone did a lot of homework on eBay and with auction catalogs. Today, thanks to this forum and other databases from collectors, the gig is up on authenticators who think they can just crank out letters into the great unknown.

both-teams-played-hard
03-25-2008, 02:12 PM
Here is a photo 34swtns posted a while back:
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1849/bearsretailei1.jpg
I also think it is likely a Wilson 42 could measure 22 inches from armpit to armpit, which would be a size 44 to some.

34swtns
03-25-2008, 03:14 PM
Like I said, anything's possible....... I've just never run across one that was tagged incorrectly.

Last year I bought a couple of mid 80's Bears defensive linesman's jerseys from a very prominant member of our forum. The seller he had contracted to sell them had listed both as "size 48 but measure more like a size 50 or 52". I don't know if that guy had a faulty tape measure or what, but both jerseys measured at dead-on 48 inches in the chest. Also, somebody had initially conned our fellow forum member into believeng that both jerseys were "game worn". So not only were they the wrong size for the respective players but they also had no evidence of game use, whatsoever.
Let me repeat......no evidence of game use on a mid 1980's Chicago Bears defensive lineman!
Ridiculous.

lund6771
03-25-2008, 09:38 PM
Regarding the Payton AMI jersey:

I've said it a hundred times already......Walter Payton only ever wore a size 42. From 1975 to 1988. First game to last game.....size 42.
This is fact, straight from the mouths of 2 former Bears equipment staffers and confirmed by a very respected Bears vintage gamer collector.
People who have bought or sold size 44's and 46's can get pissy and defensive all you want but it doesn't change the fact that if it's not a 42.....
IT'S A FAKE. Period.

I stopped alerting buyers/sellers, auction houses to this fact a long time ago. I've seen dozens of Payton "gamers" bought and sold that were nothing more than retail authentics doctored to look like gamers. Keep in mind, the Bears authentics of the 80's were EXACTLY like the gamers in every way. And Payton was the most popular Bear during this period so there are literally thousands of potential "gamers" floating around out there. But nobody wants to hear it. People refuse to believe that they've been had, and that's understandable. But it doesn't change the facts.

it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!

now I'm thouroughly confused about what to think...

A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...

B. AMI has a dramatic discription of Payton carrying a satchel containing a jersey...the jersey is authenticated by the consignor...Lastly it is categorized by Dave O' brien as being one of the best in the hobby

Eric, can you set up a poll for forum members to vote A or B?

RKGIBSON
03-25-2008, 10:01 PM
In the November AMI auction they had a Walter Payton, lot 1, that was originally sourced from Bill Wade. That jersey was a size 44, early jersey. Went and tried to pull it up to look at the specifics it is not in their data base. ?? It had a letter from Wade stating how and when he got it. It is the only jersey I have seen that I thought had any type of provenace.

Roger

CollectGU
03-26-2008, 08:20 AM
it's been said before...the beauty of this forum is that there are so many niche experts...34 has helped me on some Bears items...his knowledge is awesome!!


A. 34swtns says that Payton didn't wear a size 44 until late in his career...



Correction. 34 is stating that Payton never wore a size 44 ever in his career.

lund6771
03-26-2008, 10:23 AM
This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I personally did that myself with the 49'ers in 1991 when I was in college...I bought a Joe Montana and made contact with Bronco Hinkek to show him the jersey and letter...he verified everything for me and I also developed a great contact for years...

My situation is very similar to 34Swtns...I mean, how do you NOT trust the statements from 2 employees and from a connected Bears collector?...were Lampson & Case in the locker room handling the Bears equipment?...Are Bears jerseys their expertise?...How many blounders has Lampson made over the years?

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision

CollectGU
03-26-2008, 10:45 AM
This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I personally did that myself with the 49'ers in 1991 when I was in college...I bought a Joe Montana and made contact with Bronco Hinkek to show him the jersey and letter...he verified everything for me and I also developed a great contact for years...

My situation is very similar to 34Swtns...I mean, how do you NOT trust the statements from 2 employees and from a connected Bears collector?...were Lampson & Case in the locker room handling the Bears equipment?...Are Bears jerseys their expertise?...How many blounders has Lampson made over the years?

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision


I'd like to add that 3 graded 10 Walter payton's from the MEARS database are also 44's so it's not just Lampson as well as the one from Bill Wade that Roger mentioned....

lund6771
03-26-2008, 12:34 PM
Agreed...there obviously are a lot of bad Paytons out there...seems like there's one in every auction...but can they ALL be no good?...is a real Payton that exremely scarce as, say like, Barry Sanders?...there's a ton of bad Sanders jerseys out there, I'd say that 99% bad is fair...in fact, the only 2 that I know are 100% real is Rogers and the one AMI just sold

3Swtns, how many do you know of out there that you know are 100%...I agree that back then there were only a couple of homes and roads worn each year...based on the GSH on the sleeves, and the style of Wilson tag, you can narrow down time periods of probablity...most Paytons out there have the GSH which was only worn 4 years I think...so based on the amount of jerseys that players were given back then, for this 4 year stretch Payton could have worn around 10 homes and 10 roads for the 4 years combined!!!!...I'm sure some probably got discarded or recycled...just in Erics thread we saw more Paytons being sold that ever could have possibley be worn...Hall of Fame has some I'm sure, familiy, maybe some friends...

so I guess a real Payton from this era is as scarce as a real Barry Sanders...a 100% real one should come around only once every 5-10 years...so mathematicall there is no possible way that even a couple of the ones listed in all the auctions above are real, no matter if he did or didn't wear only a 42

34swtns
03-26-2008, 03:11 PM
I can't begin to explain all the wrong sized so-called Payton "gamers" that have changed hands in recent years other than the fact that a guy could very possibly make quite a chunk of change if he could come up with a reasonable facsimile of one. This has been proven time and time again. All I can offer is what I know and what I've been told by more than one very reputable source.
I certainly can't control what people choose to do with their money either but I do know, without a doubt, that any Payton game used jersey I purchase in the future will have to show plenty of visible game use and it will have to be a size 42.

lund6771
03-26-2008, 03:56 PM
swnts...have u ever seen one that has made u 100% certain that it was real?...how many 100% real ones exist, that you know of?

I am honestly somewhat amazed that the last one in AMI's auction is being questioned....from what I have heard, Bob Case has had awesome football coonections over the years and built a nice collection...has to be one of the best collections out there

CollectGU
03-26-2008, 05:56 PM
This is almost a he said/she said kind of a thing with all of the Payton's that AMI has sold...If I was a looking for a Payton, I would talk to the most knowledgeable Bears collectors and attempt to make contacts within the team

I'd personally feel more comfortable with 34's information than info from Lampson and Case...


Easy decision

Pete,

I just got off the phone with the Pro Football Hallof Fame and they confirmed to me that the jersey that Payton gave them directly after he broke Jim Brown's record is a size........44, so i guess it is a fake. But you will spin this info. another direction about the mathematics of the numbers of jerseys which is all conjecture on your part because you have no idea how many jersey were worn by Payton those years. blah,blah,blah

lund6771
03-26-2008, 06:58 PM
Great info Dave!!!!..that was a great idea thinking to call the Hall...I wish more authenticators would come up with ideas like that

you've been around a while, what are your thoughts about how many jerseys a year players wore in this era...realism is still telling me that there is no way even 1/2 of the jerseys that Eric posted could be real...

I'm not singleing out any auction house here, just the total numbers of jerseys that have sold within the last few years is staggering

Again, I trueyl was suprised that there were potential issues brought up with Case's jersey...again from what I've heard he's put together an awesome football collection

Im not spinning anything here and think that you had a great idea calling the Hal of Fame, but reality is telling me that there is no way that they can ALL be real

can we agree on someting for once?....:)

34swtns
03-26-2008, 08:39 PM
Well, then I guess we have a quandry then don't we?

Here's photo of Payton's jersey in the Hall:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i56/34swtns/Bears%20Jerseys/PaytonintheHOF.jpg

Taken by one of our forum members, it's hard to tell what the size is. Assuming it's a size 44, why do you suppose Payton would switch from a 42 to a 44 in 1984 ,(which according to the plaque is when he wore this jersey), and back to a 42 in 1985, (which according to Dennis Grapenthin, vice president of Wilson Sporting Goods, is absolutely the size he wore during the Super Bowl season)? In fact, when Wilson reissued a limited run of Payton jerseys in 1993 and 2000, they were reissued in only one available size; the size Payton wore.......size 42.

Believe who you want, but I'm sticking with size 42. I've had too many good and reputable people tell me the same exact thing to deny it. Is it possible that all these people are wrong? Sure, anything's possible. But, speaking for myself, my money will only be spent on a size 42 Walter Payton jersey.

CollectGU
03-26-2008, 08:48 PM
Im not spinning anything here and think that you had a great idea calling the Hal of Fame, but reality is telling me that there is no way that they can ALL be real

can we agree on someting for once?....:)

Now your asking for the impossible...Seriously, I am not that naive to believe that all of them are real. I will say that I did like Bob case's.

Dave

lund6771
07-09-2008, 08:11 PM
around and around we go again...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1994-Broncos-7-John-Elway-Game-Worn-Jersey_W0QQitemZ320272585074QQihZ011QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Lokee
07-09-2008, 10:10 PM
around and around we go again...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1994-Broncos-7-John-Elway-Game-Worn-Jersey_W0QQitemZ320272585074QQihZ011QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

:)

34swtns
07-13-2008, 07:02 PM
Dontcha' just love auction descriptions that waste your time with a lot of useless and irrelevant information that has almost nothing to do with the item up for sale? :rolleyes:

EndzoneSports
07-13-2008, 07:55 PM
around and around we go again...

http://cgi.ebay.com/1994-Broncos-7-John-Elway-Game-Worn-Jersey_W0QQitemZ320272585074QQihZ011QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Not a new one, but a recycle of one sold previously. This is that same jersey that last sold via Vintage Authentics in Apr '07.

While the appearance of the white "road" jerseys seem to be somewhat more prolific (7 different known at present count), there are also a number of the orange "home" jerseys which have made the rounds though the auction/authentication circuit (3 different that we are aware of). A number of these have also been offered/sold multiple times, such as the one currently available from American Memorabilia (see http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=44698), which is now up for a third go-around.




While I've made several posts on this jersey style previously in this thread, I thought that we might be better served if I compiled all the data into a single resource. As such, I have created a single document, bringing together auction descriptions and/or authentication text, graphics and other relevant data. Will will post a link to this at our web site (at www.EndzoneSportsCharities.org (http://www.EndzoneSportsCharities.org)) at our next site update, but for now, you can download this document directly from the following link:
http://endzonesportscharities.org/PDFs/94ElwayTB.pdfIf anyone has any additional relevant information to share, please pass it along at I will update this document as appropriate.

Best regards,

lund6771
07-14-2008, 04:12 PM
Pat...that is great database composition

don't these authenticators have one?...how can dealers sell these over and over again?

either they have no morals or they are complete idiots and shouldn't be running a business anywas...I'll vote for #1

thing is you keep seeing the same people sell the same trash overr and over again

EndzoneSports
07-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Pat...that is great database composition

don't these authenticators have one?...how can dealers sell these over and over again?

either they have no morals or they are complete idiots and shouldn't be running a business anywas...I'll vote for #1

thing is you keep seeing the same people sell the same trash overr and over again

When we initially addressed this issue back in 2001, Grey Flannel had, by that time, authenticated 3 different of the white “road” jerseys—1 ea. in size 44, 46 and 48 (See jersey #s 1, 2 & 3). More recent information indicates that there were at least four—a second in size ‘46’ also carries a GF letter “M.S. 603C” dated from 1996 (see jersey #7). Upon being made aware of this, Andy I. had stated that, due to the information we’d provided, they would no longer consider authenticating any jerseys of this style. To their word, and to the best of my knowledge, they have not authenticated one since, the last being Jersey #3 , offered in May of ’01.

Contacted in 2005 regarding the 3rd sale of similarly-styled jerseys (see Jersey #s 4, 5 & 6 offered in 2002, 2004 and 2005, respectively), the folks at American Memorabilia (AMI) seemed a bit less concerned regarding the “coincidence” and Victor M’s polite, but brief response was (paraphrased), “We can only go by the opinion of our authenticator”.

From a business stand-point, I can understand this sentiment (without agreeing with it) as one of the reasons that the people from the business side hire 3rd-party authenticators is to insulate themselves from liability regarding authenticity concerns. From a practical standpoint, however, the auction houses are still free to offer or choose not to offer anything that that desire, irrespective of 3rd-party opinions, be they supportive or otherwise. As an example, AMI’s own policies state that, “American Memorabilia reserves the right to refuse any item that comes from any authentication company. American Memorabilia will have the final say if an item will go into auction.”

Without knocking the business practices of either the sellers (ie auction houses) or authenticators, I can only offer a personal opinion as to my position. As someone who has performed paid authentication, I can state that I keep detailed records of each and every examination that I perform. Such records act as both a record of the jerseys for which I’ve offered opinions as well as a reference for comparison to any similarly-styled jerseys which may be presented subsequently. If the occasion were to arise where I was presented with a unique 1-game style jersey, I would perform due diligence to come to an opinion regarding the authenticity of the item in question. Presuming I concluded that, in my professional opinion, this jersey was authentic, if, at some later date, I were presented with a similarly-styled, albeit obviously different jersey, the positive opinion rendered on the first jersey examined, whether right or wrong, would prevent me from offering a similar supportive opinion on the second. In my judgment, this could be the only correct course of action, both from the standpoints of ethics and common sense. While I’ve never acted in the capacity of a professional dealer, I think that the same standard of ethics and common sense would apply, were I in this position.

Stepping back and taking a broader view, I must also offer a (limited) defense of the practices of the authenticators/sellers. At some point, both Grey Flannel and Lou Lampson were presented with one of these jerseys for the first time; at that point, having no prior history to draw from, one must presume that these were simply compared to a “reasonable standard” in order to draw their opinion. When presented with a second (presuming that records were retained of the first) a decision was required that would compel them to either 1) use the first as a standard for comparison; or 2) disregard the first and compare the second to the same “reasonable standard” used to judge the first. In practice, it would appear that both Grey Flannel and Lou Lampson have taken the second approach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach in situations where it would be possible/plausible and even, in some case, likely that multiple similarly-styled jerseys would have been worn by a given player. Such is the case with Elway’s Russell Athletic jerseys from the mid- to late-1980s. These were somewhat of a generic commodity with one seasons’ jerseys being nearly indiscernible from the next; over a 5-year period, one could argue that there are likely a dozen or more legitimate gamers in existence. In my opinion, however, this approach should not be applied in the case of more unique styles.
As to the sellers… As previously mentioned, Grey Flannel, to the best of our knowledge, has neither authenticated nor sold a jersey of this style since 2001. While one could argue that, by that time, the damage was done and that they should have had internal controls in place to act as a check; thus, at least causing pause before 2nd, 3rd and 4th successive authentications, it would appear that at least they’ve suspended this practice once made aware of it. For this I commend them. Also as previously mentioned, I understand, but respectfully do not agree with, the stance of sellers such as American Memorabilia, who sidestep responsibility for the authenticity of the items that they offer, by placing the brunt of liability on their paid authenticators. There are several faults with this policy, most of which have been covered here and elsewhere ad nauseaum. My primary issue with such a policy is that, it unfairly insulates the seller from liability, passing this instead to the authenticator, who is simultaneously insulated in the fact that, said authentications are essential nothing more than their professional opinions. In the case of selling items of more or less questionable authenticity, neither the seller nor the authenticator would be held accountable.

As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )

Best regards,

lund6771
07-20-2008, 11:50 AM
As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )

Best regards,

great post again Pat....I'm gonna dissagree with you that "we" created this mess...my opinion is that where there are dollar signs, scumbags follow....the crooks created the mess, so the authentication business evolved...Lampson has been discussed so many times here, and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse..but if you look at the whole hobby from an outside perspective, Lampson is a terrible cancer to this hobby as an authentcator.....when a guy authentiactes a ton of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game, it shows that he has no business being in the authenticating business......HE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!!


I' not sure if there ever was a time line for game used colecting, but here is my perspective...

the game used hobby seemed like it started to explode in the mid to later 80's....and with that the value of the "real stuff" sky rocketed

bring in the scumbags who saw $$$$ and here we go...first it was good replicas being sold as real...then it went to another level...faking wear

one of the reasons I've always loved football jerseys is the wear, but of course the art of creating fakes went to another level in the early 90's with fake tears, field paint, and repair marks

1992 was detrimental to the hobby when Champion was selling pretty much the exact stuff that was worn on the court and on the field...

ever since then it has been so hard to tell what is legit and what isn't for all sports

I think it's gong to take some major intervention so that the collector has some security again...dealers like AMI will continue to make the same comments about the authenticator, even when there is blatent evidence such as a one game style...who's gonna stop them?

I think there needs to be an overall hobby sweep and get a lot of these crooks out of here so that collecting can be fun again...it would be great to buy items from people who actually care about what they are selling...isn't that why we all started collecting to begin with?

G1X
07-21-2008, 01:22 AM
Just my humble opinion, but I agree 100% with Patrick's last paragraph. From my view of the hobby as both a collector and dealer, I think that it is perhaps the truest thing anyone has ever written in this Forum about the subject.

I see it and hear it nearly every day, especially from the dealer side of the fence. I could tell many an amazing tale on the subject, but there is not enough time or space.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

trsent
07-21-2008, 07:45 AM
great post again Pat....I'm gonna dissagree with you that "we" created this mess...my opinion is that where there are dollar signs, scumbags follow....the crooks created the mess, so the authentication business evolved...Lampson has been discussed so many times here, and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse..but if you look at the whole hobby from an outside perspective, Lampson is a terrible cancer to this hobby as an authentcator.....when a guy authentiactes a ton of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game, it shows that he has no business being in the authenticating business......HE NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN!!!!!!!

How do you "SHUT DOWN" a man? Sounds pretty harsh.

lund6771
07-21-2008, 12:13 PM
when I say shut down...I mean his authentication business...this would be a slap on the wrist...many would consider what he is doing fraud...there are so many "newbies" that have gotten into collecting and they solely rely on his letter...

sure we sit here and talk about doing our own homework...but why do we say this?...cuz we've all been burned and still see it continuosly happening every day on e-bay and auctions...most of us have on this site have been around the block, but how is the newbie protected?...by a guy who has authenticated handfulls of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game?

trsent
07-21-2008, 01:38 PM
when I say shut down...I mean his authentication business...this would be a slap on the wrist...many would consider what he is doing fraud...there are so many "newbies" that have gotten into collecting and they solely rely on his letter...

sure we sit here and talk about doing our own homework...but why do we say this?...cuz we've all been burned and still see it continuously happening every day on e-bay and auctions...most of us have on this site have been around the block, but how is the newbie protected?...by a guy who has authenticated handfulls of Elways and Favres that were only worn for one game?

I understand, but the issue is no one has ever come on this forum and shown that Lou Lampson, the authenticator you said should be shut down, has intentionally committed fraud. I do not personally like his methods, I do not like the fact that letters are written and no contact information is listed to stand behind them and I do not like a lot of examples of his work, but no one has ever shown proof that he has intentionally authenticated an item as genuine to commit fraud.

I have spoke to his associates and friends over the years, and they feel he is an honest man who may work too quickly and make mistakes. It is not how I would run my business, not how other respected authenticators run their business, but it is how he runs his business.

mvandor
07-21-2008, 07:06 PM
I believe the correct legal term is "gross negligence".

lund6771
07-21-2008, 07:19 PM
I have spoke to his associates and friends over the years, and they feel he is an honest man who may work too quickly and make mistakes. It is not how I would run my business, not how other respected authenticators run their business, but it is how he runs his business.

If I was a new to collecting and saw how Lampson is glorified in ebay descriptions and all that Smithsonian mumbo jumbo...I'd be awefully impressed with his resume...

THen let's say I would want a Lebron James game used jersey and did a google search...Of course Vintage Authentics would probably pop up because it seems like they sell 400 of them a year...Sweet!!!! It comes with a Lampson letter!!!...So I bought it for $1,200.00!!!!...Seems like a great deal for such a Superstar!!!...(Isn't that about what the last 400 they've sold went for?)...Now I'm on Vintages list and their next auction comes around and heres 3 more...Next auction theres a few more...Hmmm, red flags start going up...start doing some more searching on the internet about Lampson and come up to this site...

OH SHIT!!!!!...I JUST GOT BURNED!!!!!!!

I don't think that this story is any sort of a stretch...how would you feel about Lampson?...Would you give a shit that he's a nice guy and that he works to quickly and makes mistakes?

Hell no!!!...he just cost me $1,200!!!!!

you've just learned gotten your first taste of the current state of the game used memorabilia market...where you have to do all the reasearch yourself and Lampson is worthless..so it was a $1,200.00 lesson that should have NEVER occurred in the first place

lund6771
07-21-2008, 07:33 PM
or in a nut-shell

would you care how nice Lampson is if you bought an Elway or Favre throwback and came across this thread?

G1X
07-22-2008, 02:05 PM
I think that most who have been in the sports memorabilia hobby for any length of time understand that there are problems with the hobby - just as there are in any other hobby and in life in general. I have been collecting game-used uniforms since 1974, and I can state that the evils in the hobby are really no different than it was back then other than it is a different set of characters and some of the methods have changed.

A few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation? Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems.

The bottom line is this - whether it's this hobby or any other hobby - it's caveat emptor. It is the first and most important thing one should learn before embarking into any hobby. Some will argue the point endlessly, but it's a fact - period.

Shouting about all the bad guys will not really change a thing as there will always be other bad guys to take their place. It's been that way since the beginning of time. Trying to police a hobby is near impossible.

There is only one thing any collector can do, and that's the usual mantra that we have all said and heard a million time before - do your homework and become your own expert in the items you collect. Protect yourself with knowledge. It takes a lot of time and effort, and is not something that can be acquired overnight.

It is easy to blame ebay, lazy sellers, SCD, evil dealers, auction houses, authenticating services, any and all ripoff artists, etc., etc., etc. . . In my humble opinion, at the end of the day, there is no one to blame but ourselves when we don't take on the responsibility of becoming well-educated in what we collect.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Nathan
07-23-2008, 01:10 AM
To point the finger solely at one side or the other is oversimplifying a complex issue (and no, I'm not accusing Mark or anyone else; his just happens to be the post above mine).

Here are the problems that we face on a daily basis:
1) Negligent authenticators
2) Uneducated collectors
3) Third parties (i.e. auction houses and a couple of dealers) that would rather protect their friends and wallet than do the right thing

This forum exists to aid in all three. We share information to help collectors become educated, we blow the whistle on items that are improperly deemed authentic, and we keep an eye and report on the third parties that behave in an unscrupulous manner.

In an ideal world, every person that's ever looked at buying a game jersey would be an educated member of our forum. But when you find an eBay auction that ends in 10 minutes for an iffy item at a great price, a lot of that goes out the window. It would be wonderful if everyone had the requisite knowledge already in their head, but it doesn't work that way. In this hobby, timing is a big part of being able to pick up a great item. I have missed out on numerous terrific items by seeing them five minutes too late, and at the same time have benefited by picking up a couple of items almost immediately after being posted for sale. Doing homework goes out the window in that scenario.

Here's the part about dealers/authenticators that fries me. In hockey (my primary collecting sport), we are fortunate to have Barry Meisel and Milt Byron. Both are longtime dealers, both are longtime authenticators, and both have lifetime money-back guarantees if they erroneously authenticate something that isn't good. Do baseball or football dealers offer the same thing? The simple fact is that hockey in the last 10 years has advanced into the modern era, while I look at baseball (especially) as being in the Stone Age.

Authenticators owe it to the hobby to be able to sit down and diligently research every item they see. Auction houses owe it to the hobby to oversee those authenticators and not pull the "we take their word" card out of their (not "hat", but something that sounds similar). And collectors owe it to the hobby to expand their base of knowledge so we can help ourselves, help each other, and keep a check on the unscrupulous.

And that's all I have to say about that.

trsent
07-23-2008, 08:51 AM
Looking for Duane Kuiper home run baseballs

I am just wondering - If a guy has one career home run, aren't you looking for a "baseball" and not the plural?

EndzoneSports
07-23-2008, 05:53 PM
I had a sinking feeling after my last post that my response was likely to (re)open any number of cans of worm. My apologies to all if for inadvertently initiated a hijacking of this thread’s original purpose. Now that the damage is done, I might as well clarify/expound on a few thoughts.

The “we” to which I referred is the hobby in total, not just at the collector end of the food chain. This “we” includes the hobbyist collectors, dealers/auction houses, and the 3rd-party service providers that we’ve (intentionally or otherwise) invited into our little fracas. As Mark H. pointed out the hobby is fraught with ills from all levels… From the uneducated and/or ill-informed collectors who would foolishly plunk down four digits worth of grocery funds on a LaBron jersey, blindly accepting the opinion of an authenticator, to the “professional” authenticator who is more interested in the quantity rather than the quality of the work to which he signs his name, to the seller who, motivated by profit (which all businesses must be), acts with near complete disregard as to the integrity of the items which they are peddling. Lund6771 is absolutely correct in his “scumbags-following-dollar-signs theory”, but guess what? Those “scumbags” are prevalent in all levels of the hobby. To arrogantly point the finger at any one single element as the embodiment of the anti-Christ lies somewhere between oversimplification and ignorance of reality.

Can we sweep out all of the crooks and shut down the authenticators? Absolutely; the solution is simple. Stop buying! As stated previously, whether it be an auction house or paid authenticator, these business have arisen in order to meet the demand for a need. That demand being the result of a huge surge of interest in sports memorabilia. If we as collectors no longer have a need for a particular service, it will cease to exist as the demand for that service diminishes. As crass as it may sound, all entities are in business to make money. When the cash flow dries up, and these businesses can no longer make payroll and pay the leasehold, they will go the way of the dodo. So what are we waiting for?!? The reality is that, this is not going to happen, at least not in the short term. But rest assured, this, like all things will pass. At some time in the future, our somewhat juvenile diversion of hoarding other people’s sweaty laundry will turn en mass to other endeavors. With this change in interests, the support structure will fold up tent behind it. But again, that is somewhere over the horizon.

In the reality of the present, there will continue to be some within the hobby who will exhibit less than exemplary behavior, just as there will be many in the hobby readily standing by to vehemently vilify such behaviors. As Mark pointed out, these same elements were in existence in the days long before the boom, and they will continue to be present long after the surge has subsided. Such is our nature.

As much as we want to disparage the auction houses for their offering of questionable items, they do indeed serve a useful purpose in the hobby—that of acting as a marketplace; bringing together memorabilia from a multitude of sellers across a wide geographic range and making them available to interested buyers. For all of the items questioned (some of them unfairly so), by and by, the vast majority of the items offered are legitimate, unquestioned and sell to satisfied buyers.

The same goes for the authenticators. With few exceptions (no names to be mentioned), I seriously doubt that anyone who puts up a shingle as a paid authenticator would intentionally go out with the intent of committing fraud. While several examples of authentication provided by (insert name of any authenticator) can be shown to have been careless, sloppy, or just plain worthless, I seriously doubt that the intent was there to have these acts considered as fraudulent. For all of their well-publicized gaffes, these folks utilize what can generally be considered a vast wealth of experience and knowledge to do a thankless job for relatively little compensation. And while we can continue to bash them all we want, this is another case of we got what we asked for. At the onset of the hobby’s explosion, buyers collectively lambasted the auction houses/dealers for providing their own LOAs—an egregious conflict of interest we said (never mind the fact that many of the old timers had been doing this for years/decades prior to said swell in interest). From our outcry for unbiased opinions came the professional authenticator—paid by the auction houses, albeit via revenues derived from seller/buyer commissions (and we dare be to be insulted by the rise in these fees). We cry foul when any of these authentications don’t meet our standards, and scream at the top of our lungs about their not providing contact information or being accountable for their misdeeds, but keep in mind the nature or their relationship. Having been hired by the seller/auction house, these authenticators act in an agency relationship for the sellers. As such, they are really accountable only to these sellers and owe us—the lowly collector—very little if anything at all. While an ugly prospect, such is an undeniable truth. Want to correct this? Stop buying or bidding on anything with a 3rd-party authentication. When we collectively send a strong enough message that we do not want nor are willing to pay for this service, the sellers will cease to offer it and the authenticators will move on to pursue other opportunities.

As to collectors, we must collectively look into the mirror and ‘fes up to our own faults as well. Any “novice” collector who goes out and plunks down $1,200 for a jersey without knowing his ash from his elbow pad, probably deserves to get burned… It’s called natural selection, and in the long-run it’s probably better for the hobby in general. The same goes for the dupe who finds that bargain of a deal on that Mecca of high-quality memorabilia called eBay and throws all caution to the wind to land that too-good-to-be-true deal. Chances are, (if he’s lucky) he got exactly what he paid for, and deserved it.

Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos. Unless there is a collective movement to transform the infrastructure of our marketplace, little is likely to change in short order. As Mark H. stated, what were going through now is not much different than what was transpiring 30+ years ago; only (some) the names and faces have changed.

(P.S. Apologies up front for any and all unchecked cynicism)

Best regards,

aeneas01
07-24-2008, 08:07 AM
"A few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation? Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems."

forum members that "post endlessly... on the ills in our hobby" and those that continue to express their concerns have done a great deal to rectify the situation imo - such members have created an increasingly loud voice that reaches more and more ears every day. and imo the impact of this collective voice has been quite evident, quite real. further, while it's true that most forum members may be well aware of the problems within the hobby, there are many, many new visitors to the forum each day that are not; and i for one learn something new every time i visit.

"It is easy to blame ebay, lazy sellers, SCD, evil dealers, auction houses, authenticating services, any and all ripoff artists, etc., etc., etc. . . In my humble opinion, at the end of the day, there is no one to blame but ourselves when we don't take on the responsibility of becoming well-educated in what we collect."

Hunt Auctions:
Hunt Auction prides itself as a company to be among the finest vintage sports memorabilia auctions in the country. We exercise great care in our selection of consignment and purchase materials to ensure the highest quality merchandise is made available to our bidders.

Heritage Auctions:
Our knowledgeable staff of over 100 experts and 300 additional service-oriented professionals, and our suite of services, help our customers develop the best collections possible.

American Memoarabilia:
American Memorabilia strives to lead the memorabilia industry by creating memories for generations, while providing the highest quality authentic memorabilia, client satisfaction, industry integrity & trust while sharing a portion of our success back to the community.

Grey Flannel Auctions:
You can rest assured that each and every lot in this auction is genuine and authentic in all respects. Our commitment to authentication for over a decade has earned us the reputation as "The Standard of the Industry."

Mastro Auctions:
Leading Industry Experts With the foremost experts in the hobby, Mastro Auctions clients benefit from hundreds of years of collective experience. Nowhere is there more collectibles knowledge under one roof - see the expert biographies for details.

to suggest that collectors have no one to blame but themselves if the item they receive from a high profile auction house or experienced dealer proves not to be authentic strikes me as stunningly ridiculous and, quite honestly, is very maddening. as can be seen above, auction houses clearly and in no uncertain terms present themselves as having the required expertise to determine whether or not an item is indeed authentic - an expertise for which the buyer is charged a handsome premium. to imply that these type of auction houses should be let off the hook because a bidder does not possess the esoteric information found at game used universe and, by extension, deserve what they get because the required "homework" was not done is utterly outrageous imho.

should a bidder be required to know that a herschel walker game used georgia helmet listed at auction is bunk if the six digit date code stamped into the interior of the helmet is followed by a letter? a bidder has no business bidding on such an item if not equipped with this sort of esoteric info? is a bidder a stooge because he/she believes that a reputable auction house knows to check this sort of info, because the auction house states: "our knowledgeable staff of over 100 experts and 300 additional service-oriented professionals, and our suite of services, help our customers develop the best collections possible."?

"As I’ve previously stated both on this forum and elsewhere, the hobby itself has created this mess, and like it or not, we’re now forced to live with the monster we’ve created, warts and all. For a multitude of reasons, collectively we (the hobby in general) have demanded 3rd-party authentication; individuals and/or business have risen to the demand and we’ve been given what we’ve asked for (albeit with a less than perfect system, and aside from minor tweaking, with few options for anything better); and now we expend much of our time thrashing the system for its flaws. Chalk it up to human nature to want to gripe and moan about all that’s wrong in the world… I know I do. : )"

i don't believe that the hobby is a mess and i certainly don't believe that collectors have played a part in creating a mess. nor do i believe that there is anything complex or complicated about the state of the hobby. imho it's really as simple as this - the hobby is comprised of honest folks and, unfortunately, dishonest honest folks. navigating between the two is the challenge.

further, i don't believe that the hobby has ever demanded third-party authentication nor do i believe authenticators are a product of auction houses attempting to limit their liability - i believe that auction houses simply and correctly determined that authenticators could increase the value/price of their lots and, through the years, they have become the norm. frankly, it seems, any piece of paper will suffice these days.

again, imho there is really nothing complicated about the hobby nor do i feel the hobby is a mess - like anything else where money is involved you will find crooks. but because of places like this, such crooks will be exposed and so will questionable business practices.

and posting concerns here works - every major auction house reads this site and many, many, many collectors come here for info even if they don't register and become active members. i know, i get emails all of the time from helmet collectors that were pointed to the forum, found my email address and have contacted me.

as far as i'm concerned publicly airing out shenanigans within this hobby does not constitute "whining" nor does it hurt the hobby. it makes the hobby better, safer and, most importantly, it works.

mvandor
07-24-2008, 05:38 PM
Folks lets face it, this is a HOBBY. The federal government is not going to step in and provide oversight and regulation of our little corner of chaos.

Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

EndzoneSports
07-24-2008, 07:02 PM
Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

No disrespect taken. We all are likely to have differing opinions; these differences only embellish the fabric of our endeavor.

A big business indeed and certainly no disagreement there. My prior post noted that, the folks who are doing this professionally are out to make money; by definition that's what being in business is about. With this, however, also comes the responsibility to conduct business in an ethical manner, and yes, there will be some who push the limits on this front.

My point of emphasizing the "hobby" aspect is that of reminding us all that, from a collector's standpoint, this is supposed to be something that we have fun doing. So many take this hobby (and themselves) way too seriously. If this is not something that one finds enjoyable, maybe they should consider stamp collection or taking up cross-stitch. While we do have our share of crooks and scoundrel amongt us, this will remain, to a greater or lesser degree, until the cows come home. In the mean time, we must all try to continue educating ourselves, aid where possible in educating others, and most of all have fun!

Best regards,

aeneas01
07-24-2008, 07:22 PM
Ah, completely wrong, with all due respect. To a consumer, it is a hobby, to those making a living at it, it is a career, a job, a profession. In fact, collectively, it is an industry subject to the same scrutiny and standards all industries should be held to. It is, in fact, big business when you look at the millions of dollars passing through.

you are precisely right mvandor - further, auction houses are indeed heavily regulated and do not enjoy the same "safe harbor" protection as ebay. but in order for regulations to be enforced, consumers must lodge complaints, i.e. regulating bodies need to be made aware of problems (usually again and again). regulating bodies, whether state or federal, generally do not go after businesses randomly - they generally go after businesses in response to consumer complaints. also, the media (local & national) is a good avenue for lodging complaints, for sharing your story - when media outlets are contacted enough times with like stories an investigative report can follow.

and for those that appreciate a little bit of irony with their beer....

Heritage Auction house, based in Dallas, says the negative publicity of auctioning questionable Hollywood memorabilia has damaged its multi-million dollar reputation. It is now suing the company that provided the items for sale. Heritage is the third largest auction house in the world. It sold more than 20 items that it advertised as having once belonged to Hollywood stars. Those pieces were provided by a company called LA Prop. Heritage says LA Prop knowingly made false representations about the authenticity of the items...

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_heritage.c0999080.html

kingjammy24
07-27-2008, 09:20 PM
patrick:
you fail to make any distinction between the general concept of third-party authentication (which is what collectors initially demanded) and the reality of how authenticating is actually currently practiced (which is what collectors are currently bitching about). what was demanded is not what's been received. what's been received is a pitiful system designed exclusively by the auction houses/authenticators to maximize profits by gaming the system at the cost of the collector.

secondly, while the collecting community may have demanded third-party authentication as a general concept, they had virtually no role in determining its specific execution. you can blame collectors for the advent of the concept but not for the reality of how authentication is currently being performed. exploitation was a foreseen risk but awareness of risk doesn't equate to culpability. we all want air travel, for example, and we all realize hijackings are a risk but i hardly think passengers are to blame when their plane is hijacked.

you seem to fault the entire concept simply because it's been twisted and exploited, as if everything in life can't be twisted and exploited. in the instances where we've been given ethical, diligent experts performing genuine authentications there haven't been many complaints. if lampson is proof that authentication is a broken concept, then are you proof that it isn't? concepts rise or fall on their own inherant merits, not on individual personalities.

"Having been hired by the seller/auction house, these authenticators act in an agency relationship for the sellers. As such, they are really accountable only to these sellers and owe us—the lowly collector—very little if anything at all. While an ugly prospect, such is an undeniable truth."

i don't believe it's the truth in the least. in your world then, individuals are only accountable to the person who signs their paycheck? they aren't accountable to a set of ethics, morals, and standards? at a minimum, they aren't accountable to state and federal laws against negligence and malfeasance? if a realtor tells you that a home has a pool when it doesn't, a judge isn't going to give a shit that their commission comes from the seller.

mark h:
"few Forum members post endlessly in this Forum expressing a lot of passion on the ills in our hobby. If I may ask, what are any of you who express these concerns doing to rectify the situation?"

i'll let patrick answer you; "When errors occur, I believe that as a responsible community we have an obligation to bring this information to the attention of both the community at large".

"Posting in this Forum is fine, but as stated in my opening sentence, I would think that most of the folks in this Forum are aware of most of the hobby's problems."

your assumption then is that no new hobbyists join the forum and/or that the forum attracts no new members; that the hobby is made up of a fixed group of veteran collectors who are all aware of the same things.

re: caveat emptor

i agree but it also seems like a wonderful way to let auction houses and authenticators off the hook and place the blame entirely on the buyers. there are laws against negligence, fraud, misrepresenation, malfeasance, and false advertising because it isn't simply caveat emptor at the end of the day. caveat emptor may be the best practical solution to the problem but it does nothing to address responsibility for the problem.

rudy.

EndzoneSports
07-28-2008, 06:18 PM
Rudy:

It’s certainly not that I failed to note the disparity between the ideal and reality re: 3rd party authentication; it was simply an editorial battle that I chose to avoid. I think that most are aware that the current situation is far from ideal, being fraught with its own set of conflicts of interest. In a utopian world, any/all authenticators would be infallible, being blessed with the knowledge of all things sporting. In such a world, they would be readily willing to offer this service and their wealth of expertise for free, thus removing all of the financial pitfalls associated with performing such a service for hire. However, in the real world… Well, no sense rehashing that, you’ve pretty well summed it up perfectly! I also have my own deep-seeded opinions of both dealers/auction houses and several authenticators, but prefer to leave those opinions to the side.

Ours is a hobby that is, in large part based upon varying levels of uncertainty; tempered by faith. Absolute authenticity is indeed a true rarity. Because of this, all of the tools that we employ such as historical research, photo-documentation/analysis, and the seeking of 3rd-party opinions are simply an effort to close the uncertainty gap to a point where one have sufficient faith in their items’ authenticity so as to allow them to sleep at night.

I certainly don’t believe that any one participant can be demonized at the root of all the hobby’s evils. All play a part. Nor do I believe that there is a magic bullet that will cure all that ails us. As someone pointed out previously, this is a complex issue.

When I emphatically referred to our endeavor as a hobby, another was quick to point out that it is a multi-million dollar a year business. Even from a collector’s standpoint, ours is by no means an inexpensive hobby. When the “cheap stuff” often carries asking prices in the triple digits (and for the premium items, the sky’s the limit), this is not a venture for the faint of heart or weak of wallet. It is for this reason that I stand by the caveat emptor position. Not because I believe that the sellers and authenticators should be let off the hook, but because ultimately, it is the collector that has to determine his/her own comfort level in an arena of uncertainly.

All of the photo-matching, provenance and professional opinions in the world don’t make an item any more authentic, these only serve to mitigate an item’s inherent uncertainly. And just as the others shouldn’t be let off the hook, nor should the consumers. When a deal goes awry after the fact, many are quick to point the finger at some other element in the equation in order to place blame, often without shouldering any themselves for those things that they might or should have done differently to abate the situation in the first place. So often I’ve seen collectors wander waist deep into dangerous waters, devoid of any semblance of common sense and then scream bloody-murder at having been snake bit. The risks are fairly obvious; the warning signs are posted, yet so many fail to heed the warnings.

Respectfully,