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Birdbats
03-05-2007, 07:26 PM
A fellow collector brought three jerseys to my attention today that are being offered in Vintage Authentics' current auction. The Scott Rolen, Jim Edmonds and Jason Isringhausen jerseys are described as being game-used from the TBC game vs. Tampa Bay in 2005. Each is described as exhibiting "single game use." All are graded 9.5 and have -- you guessed it -- Lampson letters.

Here's the problem. All three are retail jerseys. The person who told me about this auction has contacted Vintage, but said, "they don't seem to care." Here's the key: The real gamers have white tags with black lettering next to the Cooperstown tag; the retail jerseys have red lettering. What's more, the real gamers -- which were auctioned online by the Rays and MLB -- are all autographed, most were sold with pants, and they all came with MLB holograms and LOAs from the Rays.

Here's a link to an old eBay auction featuring a legit gamer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180076275929&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D180076275929%26f vi%3D1

Here's the tagging on the retail jerseys, like those offered by Vintage:

http://akamai.edeal.com/images/catalog2660/folder64248/img4387228.jpg

Retail jerseys like those being offered by Vintage are still available at the Team Store at Busch Stadium. I think they sell for $250-300.

kingjammy24
03-05-2007, 07:43 PM
jeff,

is there any way you (or anyone else) can post a pic of the retail version?
maybe someone could swing by the store and snap a pic of the tagging?

anyway, re: "single game usage". assuming all of the jerseys were washed, i have no clue how anyone can tell the difference between a jersey worn in 1 game and one that was never worn at all. it's complete nonsense.

rudy.

Birdbats
03-05-2007, 08:24 PM
Rudy,

If I drove over to Busch and took a photo, it would look just like the photo I posted of the Vintage jersey. I might be heading that way Tuesday; if I do, I'll try to stop in the store. I talked to a friend (and Cardinals employee) this afternoon and he believes they still have the jerseys in stock.

If you click the link to the eBay listing, you can see the gamer version with the black lettering. I also have photos of a real Al Reyes jersey I can e-mail to you if you're interested.

As for "single-game usage," I think that's just code for "shows no real use at all." I've seen TBC jerseys that are just filthy after a single game. Here's one:

http://i3.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/87/09/c7a5_1.JPG

TNTtoys
03-05-2007, 10:59 PM
jeff,

is there any way you (or anyone else) can post a pic of the retail version?
maybe someone could swing by the store and snap a pic of the tagging?

anyway, re: "single game usage". assuming all of the jerseys were washed, i have no clue how anyone can tell the difference between a jersey worn in 1 game and one that was never worn at all. it's complete nonsense.

rudy.

Rudy,

I have a retail version of this jersey. I'll post pics.

Nick

TNTtoys
03-05-2007, 11:05 PM
Photos attached...

Birdbats
03-06-2007, 04:31 PM
jeff,

is there any way you (or anyone else) can post a pic of the retail version?
maybe someone could swing by the store and snap a pic of the tagging?

rudy.

Rudy,

I stopped by the stadium today, but the only throwbacks they have are generic ones. Apparently, the old stuff was cleared out to make room for the World Champions shirts, hats, etc. If you search online, though, you can find ads for the retail '82 TBC jerseys in question. Here are listings for Edmonds, Rolen, Pujols and Mulder:

http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2031953
http://www.distant-replays.com/bscr82rt-27.html
http://www.distant-replays.com/bscr82rt-5.html
http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2031954&cp=1452367.1452899.1502586.1161718&parentPage=family

On some of these sites, you can click to see a larger image -- the red-lettered tag is clearly visible on them.

kingjammy24
03-06-2007, 04:50 PM
nick & jeff,

thanks. previously, i didn't articulate my thoughts very well. what i had meant to ask was if someone could show pics of these tbc jerseys that were undoubtedly acquired specifically as a store model jerseys; hence, showing pics of the tags from such a jersey would confirm (and show details) that these exact jerseys were undoubtedly available as retail shirts. both nick's pictures and your mlb.com links prove that.

i can't even imagine what lampson could possibly say in this case. i imagine something along the lines of "it is not uncommon for retail jerseys to sometimes wind up seeing on-field action" or some such nonsense.

nice work. it seems the ball is in vintage's court.

rudy.

hblakewolf
03-06-2007, 04:59 PM
Rudy/Forum Readers-
I called Vintage owner Steve Jesnen earlier today about a different issue, and brought this subject up. Steve assured me that he has NEVER been asked about these nor has anyone provided the details as outlined here. He indicated he would, of course, pull them from the auction if presented with the facts.

This is not an area of expertise for me, however, maybe Jeff or Rudy could take the next step and contact Steve. He can be reached at 763-377-9552.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

ALWAYS BUYING PHILLIES, PORTLAND BEAVERS AND PORTLAND MAVERICKS JERSEYS

ripkengamers
03-06-2007, 08:05 PM
The real deal:

TNTtoys
03-06-2007, 10:11 PM
After seeing the photos from MLB.com, I just have one thing to say...
Why would anyone pay $325 for a retail jersey????????

suave1477
03-06-2007, 10:37 PM
Tnt because they are Mitchell and Ness Jerseys

Mitchell and Ness is the onlly company licensed by cooperstown to make exact duplicates/close to exact duplicates of old throwback jerseys.

other companies are licensed by cooperstown such as Majestic but are not allowed to make exact duplicates

Example:

Mitchell and Ness made 1985 St Pats day Mets Jerseys to be exact to the originals (Team on the front in twill / name on the back in over lapped in 2 colors orange & white)

Majestic made the same Jersey for half the price (Team name on the front in wool . name on the back only in white)

lund6771
03-06-2007, 10:45 PM
do the majestic ones show "typical one game use"?

TNTtoys
03-07-2007, 10:23 AM
Tnt because they are Mitchell and Ness Jerseys

Mitchell and Ness is the onlly company licensed by cooperstown to make exact duplicates/close to exact duplicates of old throwback jerseys.
other companies are licensed by cooperstown such as Majestic but are not allowed to make exact duplicates
Example:
Mitchell and Ness made 1985 St Pats day Mets Jerseys to be exact to the originals (Team on the front in twill / name on the back in over lapped in 2 colors orange & white)
Majestic made the same Jersey for half the price (Team name on the front in wool . name on the back only in white)
My point was why would anyone pay that much... referring simply to the retail price of the Mitchell and Ness jerseys. I am not debating their quality and authenticity. I do however know of many other ways to obtain the jerseys that possibly many others may not know about. I have roughly 20 M&N jerseys in my closet, and have never paid more than about $175-200 for a single one of them. They are all legitimate jerseys.
If any of you are interested, here is a little bit of information for you:

1. M&N has an "ALL ACCESS" club which is free to join and allows members 50% discounts on a selection of their jerseys. They rotate the jerseys regularly depending on their stock and the season. I picked up a couple of jerseys at $150 very recently this way.

2. Retail stores with contracts with M&N buy from them at much lower prices than the public, and often pass some of the savings on to their customer. Further, they sometimes offer sales (I am on Distant Replays' mailing list, and they are known for discounting these).

3. Locate a wholesaler!! There is an EXCELLENT one on ebay - Goin' Deep Sports. They sell at average prices of $100 per jersey. I bought most of mine this way. I was skeptical at first (how could they charge so low?) and called Mitchell and Ness, and they vouched for them as just about the only licensed wholesaler of their products.

4. If you know your product, buy from other collectors on ebay. These rarely retain their full value in the second market. Many people who want to sell them are usually refocusing their collection, need the cash quickly, etc. Given the value of these jerseys, they are rarely in bad condition -- people tend to take good care of them.

Of course, if you are looking for a bargain, do your homework. There are a lot of fakes out there. Know how to tell the reals from the fakes, and you can save a lot of money.

And don't buy Majestic Cooperstown Collection as an alternative to the real thing!!! These are nice jerseys but generally not even close to the originals (like Jason mentioned, they are not allowed to make an identical version to the original). And if you insist -- Again, do your price shopping -- Retail prices of these jerseys are generally 3X what you can pay for them elsewhere.

Birdbats
03-07-2007, 11:41 AM
I just talked to Steve at Vintage. He'd already contacted the consignor of the retail Cardinals jerseys and has committed to pull them from the auction. He said neither Lou Lampson nor anyone at Vintage was aware that retail jerseys with different tagging were made to replicate the jerseys used in the TBC game. The jerseys in question likely will show up in Vintage's next auction and be identified as retail jerseys.