Vernon Wells question

[geoff]

What size jersey did Vernon Wells wear in 2002 if anyone knows.Thanks in advance.Geoff

[Snowbird]

Hi,

I had a Vernon Wells Jersey from 2002 and it was a size 50. Hope this helps.

[kingjammy24]

geoff,

i'm assuming you're asking in reference to this jersey:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140091771050

i'm not 100% certain but i believe wells wore either a 48 or 50 in 2002. he wore a 50 in 2003.

personally, the asi wells leaves a bad taste in my mouth. i don't like the high set number or the lack of jays documentation. i know the jury is still out on high set numbers actually being used, but here are my thoughts:
i believe set 20 is the highest set anyone's seen on any jersey. as such, this set 20 wells has been previously discussed at length. personally, i find it odd that there's an apparent lack of set 9-19 jerseys for wells. that is, the jays themselves have offered wells jerseys (from the past few seasons) that ranged from set 1 to set 8. here we have a set 20. if wells truly used this set 20, then why were sets 9-19 missing from the jays offerings? additionally, i've never seen sets 9-19 surface in the market.
that's 10 jerseys from a popular player and yet they've never surfaced. odd isn't it? so where are these missing sets? i don't believe they exist. furthermore, why, when perusing the jays offerings of thousands of jerseys, are there no set numbers higher than 10 for any player? there were bigger stars on the team than wells yet he ordered double the number of jerseys than any other player?

i believe wells may be one of these players who ordered jerseys solely for the sake of selling them. player-ordered as opposed to team ordered. a while back, there was a discussion about the large amount of "set 3", non-meigray arod jerseys on the market. here is the discussion paraphrased:

reid fontaine - ""I was told that Arod ordered and sold boxes of them, literally. The HAMMERED Arod jerseys that MeiGray obtained were the ones from the team (all Set 1 and Set 2 jerseys)... I know there were a lot (A LOT) of Set 3 jerseys that were bought by AROD himself for his own "distribution"

me - "my questions:
- i don't understand how or why all of these jerseys are specifically set 3's. the inventory tagged, set 1s and 2s were obviously ordered by the team but if arod was purchasing jerseys on his own then wouldn't that constitute a separate purchase order? all of the rangers-ordered jerseys are inventory tagged and yet arods are not so i doubt arod was piggybacking on the rangers order. (had he been piggybacking, the sets would make sense. sets 1 and 2 to the rangers and set 3 to arod only makes sense in a single order). arod's orders would be separate from the rangers' and so i don't see how they would legitimately be assigned a set 3 unlessarod specifically requested they be labeled "set 3" which he could likely do. if that's the case, why would he specifically request "set 3" on boxes and boxes worth of jerseys? is it because he knew his all of his set 1 and 2 jerseys were with the rangers and tagged and so set 3 would seem legit to buyers?

- why are tons of non-inventory tagged, arod-ordered jerseys all labeled set 3? how do you have 50 set 3 jerseys? as i understand it, sets may be relative to a specific purchase order. thus - order 1 includes set 1, 2 and 3. order 2 includes set 1, 2 and 3 as well. i have no idea how you legitimately wind up with nothing but 50 set 3's and no untagged, set 2's or 4's or 5's, unless, like i said, arod specifically ordered dozens of jerseys to be specifically labeled "set 3" and i have to wonder why he did that.

reid - "Good question - one that I asked myself a few years back when I noticed this tagging distinction and investigated the issue. I was told that this decision was made at the manufacturer level to distinguish jerseys that were team-ordered/purchased from those that were player-ordered/purchased. Players could order any number of "game-tagged" jerseys they wanted, but they were all set 3s, regardless of the number ordered. You should add Pudge to this list. I won't touch set 3 Pudge, ARod, or Palmeiro jerseys from their Texas years. Before I start getting crazy or angry responses to this post of mine, I should say up front that if the source of your rebuttal information is ASI, I will not even bother responding to you. My source was someone who knows MeiGray well and has purchased from them; he has also purchased directly from ARod for many years; he has also had regular communications with major manufacturers such as Rawlings, Wilson, Majestic, and Russell over the years in order to clarify jersey/uniform questions."

in the same vein as the arod shirts, perhaps assigning a ridiculously high "set 20" was how the manufacturer differentiated a player-ordered shirt from a team-ordered shirt.

if i had seen the jays offer set 9-19 set shirts for wells, then i wouldn't be overly concerned about a set 20 being legit. however the fact that they never did and that sets 9-19 have never surfaced, i really have to wonder why they're absent.

while it's substantially more expensive, i'm far more fond of mike quick's 2003 wells:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280076442813

rudy.

[geoff]

Rudy that is great info even if i don't understand it fully.Are you saying that he may have ordered 20 jerseys is that what s20 means.I don't collect game used jerseys but might have an interest in this one if it is really game used because i like the player.Is this game used do you think.Thanks Geoff

[kingjammy24]

geoff,

the "s20" on the tagging refers to "set 20". unless anyone can show otherwise, i believe this is the highest set number seen on a jersey from any team, any player. here is a primer on what set numbers mean:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=22712&postcount=8

my point in this thread is that for this set 20 to be legit, there would have to be 11 other 2002 wells jerseys out there that are tagged with set numbers 9-19. i have seen a legit vernon wells set 8 jersey offered by the jays. to me, this means that sets 1-7 are out there and are legit. therefore, i wouldn't have an issue with sets 1-8. however, according to this set 20 jersey, there must be 11 others out there tagged set 9-19. these weren't offered by the jays and i have never seen them surface in the market. they're mysteriously absent and they shouldn't be. this leads me to believe that they possibly don't exist and that "set 20" may simply be an arbitrary way that the manufacturer indicates a player-ordered shirt as opposed to a team-ordered shirt. personally, i would avoid player-ordered shirts.

in terms of whether or not this particular wells jersey is game-used, it's difficult to be conclusive. personally, i would not feel good with it in my collection for the reasons i outlined previously. prior to 2000, jays jerseys were very difficult to obtain, much like yankees shirts. if one were purchasing a jays jersey from any time period, i'd want to see some solid provenance; either a team loa, player provenance or some sort of solid connection beyond "an impeccable source". if a person didn't purchase the jersey from the team or directly from a player, then there are very few other options left. all of them should be verifiable in some way. asi is claiming they received this jersey directly from wells. they may very well have, which is why i suggested the possibility that wells may be one of those players that deliberately inflates the supply of his jerseys solely for the purpose of reselling them.

if you're genuinely interested in obtaining a vernon wells jays gamer, i would pick up mike quick's wells that he currently has on ebay or i would contact the jays and buy one directly from them. their prices are in canadian dollars so it ends up being somewhat reasonable. last i checked, they had these 2 wells game-used jerseys:

- 2003, Set 2, Size 50, Grey
- 2003, Set 2, Size 50, White Alt

i'd feel 100% confident with either of those jerseys in my collection. both would come with a Jays loa stating they were game worn. the provenance is far superior to ASI as is the set #. (#2 beats #20 any day).

to purchase those jerseys directly from the jays and to see what else they have for sale contact michael andrejek at michael.andrejek@bluejays.com

the prices from the jays would likely be cheaper than what mike quick is asking. either way, i'd feel 100% confident in those 2 from the jays or the one that mike quick is offering on ebay. i have very little confidence in the set 20 on ebay.

rudy.

[geoff]

Rudy thanks for all in the info and help on this jersey as you just taught me alot about game used jerseys as i collect game used bats and know about them but not about jerseys.The seller did tell me he owned 10 different Wells jerseys so i will ask him what numbers where on those jerseys and i will post a reply from him if he gives me one.I will also try and contact the jays soon and see what they have to offer.Thanks Geoff

[geoff]

Reply from seller.They have been from 1-20 in sets.The jersey up for auction i have never seen another from that year so not sure what the set depicts.I have seen other years not this year in home white anywhere.What do you think

[kingjammy24]

"They have been from 1-20 in sets.The jersey up for auction i have never seen another from that year so not sure what the set depicts. I have seen other years not this year in home white anywhere."

geoff, try as i might, i have absolutely no idea what any of that means.

in terms of acquiring a wells jersey that would enable you to sleep soundly at night, my previous advice stands.

if it helps, if i were in the market for a wells jersey, i would just go straight to the jays or i would wait for one with jays provenance to pop up. i just don't see any reason to acquire this ebay jersey when there are far better wells gamers out there.
in my experience, in this hobby it's worth waiting for a quality piece rather than settling for an "odd" piece.

rudy.

[geoff]

Rudy thanks for the help and advice as i will wait for the right one to come around.Geoff