GAI Certed Mickey Mantle Forgery

[sammy]

In viewing the current Premier Auctions website, I came across a Mickey Mantle "autographed jersey".

In viewing the autograph, I had doubts that it was authentic. So I did some verification.

I wanted to let anyone interested in the Mickey Mantle "autographed" jersey currently in Premier Auctions to be aware that it is a definite forgery.

The M&N tag at the bottom was not used on M&N jerseys until 2001, and Mick died in 1995. I confirmed this with M&N and their confirmation is shown below.

This jersey has been certified by Global Authentication (GAI), and they are undisputedly wrong on this one.

If GAI is going to certify an autograph as authentic, they should make sure the autographed item was actually manufactured during the player's lifetime.

Here is the auction link.

http://www.premierauctionsonline.net/process.cfm?lID=7522 (http://www.premierauctionsonline.net/process.cfm?lID=7522)


Here is the e-mail from M&N, and my inquiry.


Subj: RE: Tagging Question
Date: 2/14/2007 8:42:56 AM Central Standard Time
From: basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com
To:
CC: info@mitchellandness.com

Hey,

Thank you for your interest in Mitchell and Ness. We have been using that tag for all of our MLB throwbacks since 2001. Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns.

Thank you,


Andrew Basenfelder
Mitchell and Ness
E-Commerce
Toll Free: 866-879-6485
Direct Line: 215-279-9899
Email: basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com



From:
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:48 PM
To: Trademark; Info
Subject: Tagging Question

Hello,

Could you please tell me what year(s) this tag was used on your baseball jerseys?

Thank you,


http://www.premierauctionsonline.net/assets/images/lot_photos/18/subs/7522_4.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:window.close())

[suave1477]

Sammy I agree with what yor saying especially with the evidence you provied about the tag.

But you got to admit thats a dam good forgery especially with the Uniform # inscription, I mean even that was forged good!!! It looks just like how Mantle wrote it.

[sammy]

I posted this exact thread in the Autograph Forum this morning. It has now been removed.

[content removed]

Being as GAI sure blows their own horn when someone may do an article or show touting their expertise, they should not be afraid to admit when they authenticated a forgery.

[content removed]

[suave1477]

I have to back up Sammy on that one [content removed]

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Sammy,

I just put in a call to Justin to get a clarification on the situation. With that said, I did not see the original post you made but it may have been deleted if the forum rules we not followed. Here is the forum rule regarding questioning items:

In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, it is expected that the poster clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, it is expected that the poster questioning an item will attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item.

Please clarify whether or not you contacted the seller and waited for a reply before posting. In addition, until a reply is given, I think it is unfair to accuse anyone of being "unethical".

Once again, I will post a reply as soon as I hear back from Justin.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[sammy]

Hi Chris,

The seller was notified via e-mail. Being as the auction ends tomorrow, I thought to warn potential bidders before the auction ended.

To the truth of the matter, this is not about the seller as this is a consignment item. This is about GAI authenticating a forgery.

As you can see from my factual statements above, the autograph is a forgery. This is not based on my opinion, but on the fact, confirmed by the manufacturer, that the jersey in question was not manufactured until 2001, and Mantle died in 1995.

As per the forum rule quoted above, Mr. Priddy did not inquire as to whether I followed that rule, as you did.

[content removed]

[sammy]

The Mitchell & Ness representative who confirmed when the jersey was manufactured, based on the tagging, is show in the original posting.

His name, e-mail, and direct phone number are shown in case anyone desires to confirm what I have stated.

I will also post his e-mail confirming this information again.


Subj: RE: Tagging Question
Date: 2/14/2007 8:42:56 AM Central Standard Time
From: basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com (basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com)
To:
CC: info@mitchellandness.com (info@mitchellandness.com)

Hey,

Thank you for your interest in Mitchell and Ness.

We have been using that tag for all of our MLB throwbacks since 2001.

Please feel free to contact us with any additional questions or concerns.

Thank you,

Andrew Basenfelder
Mitchell and Ness
E-Commerce
Toll Free: 866-879-6485
Direct Line: 215-279-9899
Email: basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com (basenfeldera@mitchellandness.com)

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Sammy,

I just got off the phone with Justin who just spoke with Premier Auctions. It seems your email was sent to Premier this morning and Premier had not yet had the opportunity to verify the information or respond. Thus, given the claims in the post, it was deleted until a clarification could be made.

Notably, the item has been removed from the auction. When I spoke to Justin he assured me they have no intention of having collectors purchase suspect merchandise nor are they trying to conceal anything. They just needed an opportunity to evaluate your claims. As a result of the information you provided, they pulled the item to make sure it wasn't sold given the potential issues. And, once their research is completed, they will be the first to admit if they made a mistake in the authentication.

Fortunately, your research has prevented a potentially bogus item from making it to a collector. For that, I think you deserve a big "thank you". BTW, Justin mentioned he appreciated this as well.

Please feel free to let me know if you have any other questions.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[sammy]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the update, and you and Mr. Priddy are welcome.

Glad to see the jersey was pulled, and I was able to save someone 2000 to 3000 on that forgery.

As with all things related to this "hobby", don't just depend on someone's COA, regardless of how respected that company/person's expertise may be.

All the major authenticators and auction companies in this business make mistakes, as has been pointed out numerous times on this forum.

[JRocker49]

the problem really is watch out for mantle signed balls. if the gy could do th ejersey like that whats to stop him from buying the old bobby brown baseballs and forge those. it would be damn near impossible to tell if he is passing global.

[suave1477]

Hello Chris,

I am a little confused about something you removed my opinion I am not trying to make a big stink about this but why would you do it?

It was an opinion of how I felt since when is that against forum rules.
It was also noted as my opinion!!!

I am just trying to understand the rules, that were not allowed to advertise yet we have a For Sale section, if someone was reprinting photos from Getty and selling them thats illegal yet half the jerseys being sold on here, were brought here by making it out the back door - so that should be illegal too, and now I learned were not allowed to have opinions.

So I am just curious where the line starts and ends??????

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Chris,

I am a little confused about something you removed my opinion I am not trying to make a big stink about this but why would you do it?

It was an opinion of how I felt since when is that against forum rules.
It was also noted as my opinion!!!

I am just trying to understand the rules, that were not allowed to advertise yet we have a For Sale section, if someone was reprinting photos from Getty and selling them that's illegal yet half the jerseys being sold on here, were brought here by making it out the back door - so that should be illegal too, and now I learned were not allowed to have opinions.

So I am just curious where the line starts and ends??????
Hello Jason,

The part of your comment that was removed involved an unsubstantiated claim regarding someone's ethics. While you are certainly entitled to your opinions, we have made it very clear that this is a not a forum where posts that have the potential to damage one's reputation and livelihood will be allowed without proof. It would be the same if someone accused you of being unethical which could damage your livelihood. Unless the claim could be substantiated, we would not allow that either.

As for your comments about Getty Images, I hope it is a clear that the unauthorized selling of a licensed product is not something we want to be liable for on our site. If you would like to facilitate such transactions and accept the liability please feel free to do so. As for the products being offered, we have no proof of any wrongdoing on the part of the sellers. If someone contacted us with proof that someone was trying to sell stolen merchandise on the site then those items would indeed be removed.

I am hope that answers your question. Please feel free to let me know if it does.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[sammy]

Hi Chris,

It's been eight days since you stated the jersey was pulled for further research as quoted below and here: "And, once their research is completed, they will be the first to admit if they made a mistake in the authentication."

A week should have been more then sufficient to verify my assertion, as I did it in one day.

Has GAI or Justin Priddy admitted they made a mistake in the certification of that forgery?

I have not received any e-mails concerning this, nor have I seen any mention of it on the forum boards, or on the Premier Auctions website?


As quoted in your reply:

Notably, the item has been removed from the auction. When I spoke to Justin he assured me they have no intention of having collectors purchase suspect merchandise nor are they trying to conceal anything. They just needed an opportunity to evaluate your claims. As a result of the information you provided, they pulled the item to make sure it wasn't sold given the potential issues. And, once their research is completed, they will be the first to admit if they made a mistake in the authentication.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Sammy,

I will be attending a show this weekend in San Francisco and I believe Justin will be there representing Global Authentication. If I see him there I will get an update and pass it on via the forum.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[David]

My opinion is that the jersey was removed from the auction, and that is the main objective of pointing out a fake. Would it be nice for authenticating companies to talk about their mistakes?-- Sure, but many don't do that. PSA, for example, is loathe to publicly talk about their mistakes-- and that may have something to do with what their lawyers and insurers tell them. Also there is an auction company and consignor, GAI may not feel their position is to act as PR director for the auction company that hired them.

Also note that Justin is an employee of GAI, and he may or may not have the power to speak for the company in these matters.

[David]

I wish to add that all people and all authenticating companies make mistakes-- the key is how frequent are the mistakes and how they respond to the mistakes when they are pointed out.

In this case, a problem was pointed out on a chatboard, the authenticator contacted and the lot was removed from auction before there was a sale. This should be seen as a good reflection of the company.

As I said before, would be be nice for the company to talk about their mistakes? Yes. However, very few if any authenticating companies talk about these types issues on a chatboard.

[camarokids]

the bottom line here is the certifying company made a BAD BOOBOO!

THE FIRST step in authenicating an autographed item is to verify what is signed (official MLB, jersey , etc) Bobby Brown ball vs. Coleman, was the player alive when such an item was even produced.

I learned this like WAY back when I was a novice, this is kindergarten level stuff to look out for .

So one wonders how did GAI make such a bad mistake , in too much of a hurry , trying to authenicate too many items at once or just didn't do their homework and follow the rules of authenicating an autograph( the FIRST step)....

Or who know's , only GAI knows what happened and why ......

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Sammy,

Justin was not at the show in San Francisco this past weekend. I will try to reach him or Steve Rocchi this week to get a clarification. Once again, I will post any update if I receive one.

Sincerely,
Chris

[3arod13]

Hello Sammy,

Justin was not at the show in San Francisco this past weekend. I will try to reach him or Steve Rocchi this week to get a clarification. Once again, I will post any update if I receive one.

Sincerely,
Chris

After reading this entire thread, I'm not sure what more is expected. There's no question a mistake was made. Is it expected to have Justin actually make a reply on this site apologizing for the error? It's obvious, yet unfortunate.

[sammy]

Hi Chris,

I appreciate your attempts to get a reply from GAI and/or Mr. Priddy concerning this forgery that they certified as authentic.

There isn't any need to make any future requests.

Being as neither has taken the time to address this publicly, or privately, their silence speaks loud enough. It is an affirmation that I am correct in my assertion.

Being as this thread and the one on the Autograph Forum have had over 1250+ views and climbing, I believe the word has been spread far and wide.

I'm fairly certain this thread has made quite a few take another look at anything they may have certified by GAI, and will be a little more wary in the future concerning this authenticator and company.

Before this venue became available, there was really no way to inform many others about the garbage in this hobby. Most things were hidden, denied, or swept under the rug.

That is in the past, and myself and others will continue to make it known when any dubious, dishonest, and/or incompetent businesses and/or individuals need to have a light shined on their practices.

Shine on my fellow collectors.

[camarokids]

Hi Chris,

I appreciate your attempts to get a reply from GAI and/or Mr. Priddy concerning this forgery that they certified as authentic.

There isn't any need to make any future requests.

Being as neither has taken the time to address this publicly, or privately, their silence speaks loud enough. It is an affirmation that I am correct in my assertion.

Being as this thread and the one on the Autograph Forum have had over 1250+ views and climbing, I believe the word has been spread far and wide.

I'm fairly certain this thread has made quite a few take another look at anything they may have certified by GAI, and will be a little more wary in the future concerning this authenticator and company.

Before this venue became available, there was really no way to inform many others about the garbage in this hobby. Most things were hidden, denied, or swept under the rug.

That is in the past, and myself and others will continue to make it known when any dubious, dishonest, and/or incompetent businesses and/or individuals need to have a light shined on their practices.

Shine on my fellow collectors.


Man , that is very well written there Sammy , great work :cool:!

You are so right about the silence , sometimes silence is golden , but not in this situation......

When I started collecting autographs in the early 1990's I bought some books from Sports Collectors Digest ,the old adage buy the book first . I got The Guide to Collecting Baseball Memorabilia I & II and Collecting Team Baseballs and others .

The books tell you (in english:eek:) THE first thing in authenticating auto's is TO veryify the item that was signed ...

......I've said this earlier in the thread but wanted to elaborate more :cool:.....

I am not even a so-called expert on autographs and that has always stuck with me (the 1st thing to look for), yet what is amazing is that you have an expert :rolleyes:,who failed on the first step !!!!!!!??????

[David]

As an autograph collector, I can say that GAI has a good reputation in the autograph hobby.

Everyone makes mistakes, including dumb mistakes, from time to time-- even the experts. To me, the lesson here for all of us, is that when a dumb mistake is made the best thing is to admit it. People will may joke at you a bit, but they understand we're all human. Most will let bygones be bygones if you're upfront about it. Also, by being upfront, people will then consider you an honest person who's word is trustyworthy. In the future you'll say, "I know his word can be trusted, as he's the type of guy to admit his mistakes even when it's embarassing." However, especially when everyone is aware of the mistake, the worst is not say anything-- as collectors will wonder about your honesty and charecter. Not saying anything is being your own worst enemy.

[camarokids]

As an autograph collector, I can say that GAI has a good reputation in the autograph hobby.

Everyone makes mistakes, including dumb mistakes, from time to time-- even the experts. To me, the lesson here for all of us, is that when a dumb mistake is made the best thing is to admit it. People will may joke at you a bit, but they understand we're all human. Most will let bygones be bygones if you're upfront about it. Also, by being upfront, people will then consider you an honest person who's word is trustyworthy. In the future you'll say, "I know his word can be trusted, as he's the type of guy to admit his mistakes even when it's embarassing." However, especially when everyone is aware of the mistake, the worst is not say anything-- as collectors will wonder about your honesty and charecter. Not saying anything is being your own worst enemy.

very well said I agree .......nothing needed to add except I would like to say the way that GAI handled situation was/is un-professional (just admit you made a mistake) and just as you said "collectors will wonder". Especially the informed ones...........

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I spoke with Steve Rocchi (the President of Global Authentications) directly about the Mantle jersey. He said that they were able to confirm that a mistake was made in the authentication process and that is why the jersey was pulled and not put back up for sale.

At the moment, Steve is out of town attending to some personal matters and he asked me to make this post for him. He told me to tell everyone thank you for helping identify the issue and also let everyone know Global is committed to doing the right thing when a mistake is made.

Please feel free to post any other questions you may have and I hope you will join me in thanking Steve for getting back to us with an update.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[3arod13]

Hello Everyone,

I spoke with Steve Rocchi (the President of Global Authentications) directly about the Mantle jersey. He said that they were able to confirm that a mistake was made in the authentication process and that is why the jersey was pulled and not put back up for sale.

At the moment, Steve is out of town attending to some personal matters and he asked me to make this post for him. He told me to tell everyone thank you for helping identify the issue and also let everyone know Global is committed to doing the right thing when a mistake is made.

Please feel free to post any other questions you may have and I hope you will join me in thanking Steve for getting back to us with an update.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

Kudos to Steve and GAI. As unfortuante as this was, there's no question this was an error and not intentional. Mistakes happen, and they have acknowledged and taken responsibility for this error, where many don't.

Are any of us perfect in our jobs? Do we make mistakes? Yes!

Again Kudos to GAI! I believe they have a good standing in the authentication world and are still considered one of the top authentication services.

[David]

From my point of view the case is closed. GAI has a good reputation for autograph examination, and I don't think one should hang a company over a single error. It should also be noted that the auction house pulled the lot when the error was pointed out to them.

[David]

I should add for clarity's sake that I believe when they realized the error GAI contacted the auction house which subsequently removed the jersey before the auction ended. So, as far as potential bidders bidding their $$ on the lot, GAI did originally act well.

[sammy]

Hi David,

For "clarity's sake", I contacted the auction house about the jersey before GAI even had a clue. The jersey was removed after I also informed GAI about this.

The bidding was up to 1800+ when pulled and would have closed that night for I believe substantially more.

Opinions vary on autographs, but this was based on manufacturing data which anyone could request.

Just glad someone doesn't have this hanging on their wall, or passing it on to someone else.

[David]

Sammy, you were the one who discovered the error and contacted, so you deserve most of the credit. It would seem if it weren't for you, the error would have gone unnoticed.