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gorilla777
12-19-2016, 08:35 PM
About 15% of the total votes tallied, it's been tracking with Raines and Bagwell being ahead solidly thus far, Pudge close behind, then Hoffman and Vladdy.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!7731&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AE2Lu5P1f92OW8o

A jump forward for Mussina and most surprising, the move up for Bonds and Clemens. It's early and likely the "yes" voters come forward first, but still...

Chris78
12-20-2016, 08:26 PM
I have been watching this daily as well. It looks real good for Bagwell and Raines, and I-Rod may make it as well. If Trevor Hoffman would have kept more of his supporters from last year, he would have a better chance. With Selig being inducted, it is not surprising that Clemens and Bonds are seeing a major boost. Edgar Martinez and Mike Mussina are seeing good numbers as well and so is Vlad.

To me the biggest surprise is Manny Ramirez at 35% of the vote at this time (17% of the vote in), where Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, and Rafael Palmiero have either fallen off the ballot or almost have fallen off the ballot. I thought all 3 of these players were better than Ramirez, and Manny also failed two drug tests as well.

Game Used Bats
12-20-2016, 09:26 PM
You think Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro were better than Manny Ramirez? No offense, but they are not even in close. Manny could be be a top 10 right hand hitter of all time, steroids aside.

Chris78
12-21-2016, 09:09 AM
You think Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro were better than Manny Ramirez? No offense, but they are not even in close. Manny could be be a top 10 right hand hitter of all time, steroids aside.

I reviewed the stats and I am not seeing it. Manny even had the least home runs of the 4. I view Manny as even being more tainted as well with multiple failed drug tests. Just because he played with Boston does not mean he should be treated any differently. Manny is more similar to those 3 then Clemens, Bonds as well.

sorklora
12-21-2016, 11:51 AM
You think Sosa, McGwire and Palmeiro were better than Manny Ramirez? No offense, but they are not even in close. Manny could be be a top 10 right hand hitter of all time, steroids aside.

If we're putting steroids aside, then Palmeiro suroasses them all without a doubt as he's one of only 5 players in MLB history with 500+ homers and 3,000+ hits and say what you want about steroids, but that didn't get him those hits and homers, his sweet swing did.

gorilla777
12-21-2016, 09:43 PM
I think there has been an increase in new voters the past few years, so the overlooked guys (Raines, Edgar) and then Bonds/Clemens getting higher totals via that angle. The generations look at the PED angle and the advanced metrics tools very differently in their assessments.

KGoldin
12-22-2016, 02:41 PM
I think Bagwell, and Raines are a LOCK
Irod actually doing extremely well, although with the past rumors of his PED use (via Canseco) I would be surprised if there wasn't a big silent block not revealing ballots who will NOT let him in first time.
every year new voters come on and old go out.
If Bonds and Clemens can creep up above 60%, it will look very good for both of them
I cannot imagine a HOF without Barry Bonds. greatest hitter I ever saw. end of story

Nnunnari
12-22-2016, 05:43 PM
I reviewed the stats and I am not seeing it. Manny even had the least home runs of the 4. I view Manny as even being more tainted as well with multiple failed drug tests. Just because he played with Boston does not mean he should be treated any differently. Manny is more similar to those 3 then Clemens, Bonds as well.

Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

Chris78
12-22-2016, 09:34 PM
Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

Your view of Manny is way too extreme. One thing that needs to be considered is that his stats would not be as good without the use of PED's. If he hit 450 home runs without PED's, would he be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I do not think so.

I like your view of McGriff though. He has the highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated to PED use that is not already in the Hall of Fame. I have always felt that in order for some of the PED guys to get in such as Manny, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc., McGriff needs to be inducted first. He would be my 10th ballot selection if I voted for 10 people on this year's ballot. Are any of those guys better than McGriff without the PED use? I feel that is something that people need to consider, and truth be told, may be the best way for these PED guys to get inducted at some point.

KGoldin
12-23-2016, 08:49 AM
Manny was amazing .
Seriously
And love able
Not like a McGwire or Sosa where it was a home run or a K
Look at his OBP
Almost Williams and Bonds like
Multiple failed tests a big problem though, however all late in his career

Juicyfruit66
12-23-2016, 09:47 AM
If the ped guys don't count as cheaters, why is rose still banned? Taking enhancing drugs to play better than those. Who follow the rules is pretty low in my opinion, bad role models and bad exanples to young players

BirdsOnBat
12-23-2016, 10:35 AM
Manny was amazing .
Seriously
And love able
Not like a McGwire or Sosa where it was a home run or a K
Look at his OBP


McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

nevrdiez34
12-23-2016, 10:53 AM
McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

Sosa also had more Hits, Runs, Home Runs, RBI, Doubles, Triples, stolen bases and a higher Batting Average

STLHAMMER32
12-23-2016, 11:57 AM
Dude, Manny might be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I don't think he'll ever get in because of the multiple failed tests but he was incredible.
Once Pudge gets in, the rest of the non-failed test steroid guys need to get in. Pudge clearly used, Bagwell most likely used, all these guys still belong in the Hall (along with Barry, Roger, Sosa etc). A Rod, Manny and Palmeiro won't get in because of the failed tests.

Its amazing the lack of love for McGriff, the Crime Dog was a no-doubt HOFer.

Pujols>Ramirez

No doubt manny is one of the best from the right side however.

KGoldin
12-23-2016, 12:02 PM
McGwire was not of the same offensive profile as Sosa, his career OBP% is .400, he took walks and had a great batting eye. Sosa's career OBP% is about 50 points lower. They may have both chased the HR record one season, but they were far different at the plate.

IMO- Mark McGwire should be in the HOF for making people CARE about baseball again!
Ripken may have 'saved' baseball after the 1994 strike, however McGwire pushed it back to the spot as America's pastime in 1998

I hate these self righteous voters...if it wasn't against the rules at the time, and wasn't banned, and if no positive tests.....if they are worthy let them in....
(than again I think Rose SHOULD be in as well, put a note on his plaque that he was banned from MLB Baseball (but not the hall of fame)

BirdsOnBat
12-23-2016, 12:51 PM
Sosa also had more Hits, Runs, Home Runs, RBI, Doubles, Triples, stolen bases and a higher Batting Average

Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

Nnunnari
12-23-2016, 12:54 PM
I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

BirdsOnBat
12-23-2016, 12:59 PM
The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

This has likely been a direct result of chronic foot injuries. Compensation.

BirdsOnBat
12-23-2016, 01:26 PM
Since I can no longer edit this, I'll just reply.

My apologies if my response came off in poor tone as that is not my intent. If someone wishes to punish McGwire for not staying healthy, that is certainly understandable and a part of the equation for sure.

Happy holidays.


Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

KGoldin
12-23-2016, 01:31 PM
Since we have the mutual admiration society going, I will say this is extremely well thought out and exactly how I feel.
If there is a drug that can help you hit 45 Hrs, while striking out 41 times, and walking more than 6 out of 10 times up at the plate (while batting .362) let me have it!


I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

STLHAMMER32
12-23-2016, 02:30 PM
I agree with Ken on Manny and McGwire.
If you are a student of the game, the art of hitting, the mechanics of the swing, then you recognize that Manny is a top 3 right handed hitter of all time. He had the picture perfect swing for power and average i.e. Bonds from the left side.
(Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time btw).

Regarding Pujols. Pujols was probably the greatest right handed hitter of all time during his time in St. Louis but his decline when switching to the AL was incredible. The mechanics of his swing completely fell apart and he literally has been the 4th-5th best hitter on a weak Angels teams since he arrived. He guesses fastball, sits and spins on everything. You can't be in the argument for best hitter when you hit .270 over an extended time. Albert's offseason training never evolved as he got older which has resulted in reduced bat speed, less strength and frankly, a really poor swing. Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

If there are 4 players besides Mike Trout that are better than Albert on the angels I haven't seen them. Genuinely curious as to who you're referring to?

Albert picks and chooses when to "guess" and I've seen him sit on soft stuff just as much as fastballs.... Still never strikes out 100 times in a season. The reduced workout and more rest has been primarily due to forced rest by injury. His plantar fascia has been a lingering issue that's progressively gotten worse. Most players surrounding Albert will tell you that with the injuries he has dealt with few would even play let alone produce. He still adjusts his game and produces 30/100 currently and will have hit 3,000 hits and 600 hrs very shortly for his career.

Bonds is the best hitter I've ever seen. Left, Right....it doesn't matter. Best hitter of all-time.

Chris78
12-23-2016, 04:11 PM
Albert Pujols is clearly a better player than Manny Ramirez....Not even a discussion there.

nevrdiez34
12-23-2016, 06:32 PM
Counting stats are cool. The SLG% and OPS aren't even close. McGwire amassed a higher career WAR in 500 less games, while playing a position that will not aid your wins above replacement from a defensive standpoint. 500.

I respect your opinion, but counting stats are a part of baseball. They were both on steroids for a significant stretch of their careers, but playing alongside Jose Canseco from the get go, I couldn't tell you if Mark played a clean game in his career. Steroids also tend to play a role in a lot of injuries. To me, Sosa was more of a complete player than McGwire, though I am admittedly based being a Cubs fan. I just don't see why Sosa gets such low voting percentages even among the steroid guys.

GoCrazyFolks76
12-24-2016, 12:07 PM
Someone like A Rod, ramped up his offseason training as he got older and was able to maintain great mechanics aside from battling injuries.

I don't think using ARod is a great example as he clearly juiced in order to "ramp up his offseason training". One of the best things about steroids is they help you help you heal faster.

It's hard to fault Pujols for struggling with injuries becaus he doesn't juice.

I'm pretty sure that none of these guys we're discussing would have had the longevity they had and continued production had it not been for steroids.

earlywynnfan
12-25-2016, 11:10 PM
Your view of Manny is way too extreme. One thing that needs to be considered is that his stats would not be as good without the use of PED's. If he hit 450 home runs without PED's, would he be the greatest right handed hitter of all time. I do not think so.

I like your view of McGriff though. He has the highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated to PED use that is not already in the Hall of Fame. I have always felt that in order for some of the PED guys to get in such as Manny, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc., McGriff needs to be inducted first. He would be my 10th ballot selection if I voted for 10 people on this year's ballot. Are any of those guys better than McGriff without the PED use? I feel that is something that people need to consider, and truth be told, may be the best way for these PED guys to get inducted at some point.

Not disagreeing with you in any way, but your McGriff argument (off the cuff one sentence) is no good. If they induct him, then the next "highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated with PED use" is Carlos Delgado, why by the way has 20 less homers than McGriff in 1500 less at-bats. You have just fallen down a slippery slope!

Chris78
12-26-2016, 09:35 AM
Not disagreeing with you in any way, but your McGriff argument (off the cuff one sentence) is no good. If they induct him, then the next "highest amount of home runs for anyone not associated with PED use" is Carlos Delgado, why by the way has 20 less homers than McGriff in 1500 less at-bats. You have just fallen down a slippery slope!

McGriff had more than 400 hits than Delgado. He was also a 5 x All Star. McGriff was a better player than Delgado, although I can see your comparison.

The point you are missing is that I view McGriff as a non steroid user. Some of these other players have used steroids and their stats were inflated as a result. Would their stats be any better than McGriff as a result? Is it fair to induct someone with better inflated stats as a result? Using Delgado as a comparison does not work then because he is not as good as McGriff, and McGriff is on the fringe area.

truvalue123
12-26-2016, 03:10 PM
Obviously Victor Conte made it...

KGoldin
12-26-2016, 04:33 PM
one thing I notice about this years voting so far is it appears to me that 2018 induction will include Edgar Martinez

If you factor in the fact that McGriff lost a prime season due to strike, he is a 500 Home run club member. If you take the no steroid use at face value as fact, there has never been a 500 horn run club non steroid tainted member not in the hall. I also looked at his stats again today and he really was a model of consistency. I believe he will get in the hall of fame by veterans committee but not by writers.

gorilla777
01-07-2017, 04:40 PM
Here's the new link:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!8063&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AAAsz3uDsmqy_Vw

gorilla777
01-18-2017, 06:13 PM
Raines, Bagwell and Pudge

Bummed that Vladdy just missed out this year

Nnunnari
01-18-2017, 06:51 PM
Pretty shocking that Vlad missed out. I believe his lack of an attempt to learn English and engage with the media probably cost him the few votes he needed to get over the hump.
Pudge and Bagwell, definite steroid guys are in, which is exciting, the rest of the guys should be following.

3arod13
01-18-2017, 07:04 PM
Pretty shocking that Vlad missed out. I believe his lack of an attempt to learn English and engage with the media probably cost him the few votes he needed to get over the hump.
Pudge and Bagwell, definite steroid guys are in, which is exciting, the rest of the guys should be following.

I knew about Pudge. Wasn't aware about Bagwell. In an interview in 2009, after Pudge had a little steroids in his urine, he was asked did he do it. His reply was "only God knows."

Bondsgloves
01-18-2017, 09:11 PM
2 steroid users and a player who admitted using cocaine during games.:rolleyes:

STLHAMMER32
01-18-2017, 09:37 PM
Ok, now the precedent has been set.....let all the big sluggers from the steroid era in.

emann
01-18-2017, 10:21 PM
I knew about Pudge. Wasn't aware about Bagwell. In an interview in 2009, after Pudge had a little steroids in his urine, he was asked did he do it. His reply was "only God knows."

Just a quick correction for you: he didn't have steroids in his urine. Canseco said he injected him and later when a reporter asked if his name would appear on the leaked 2003 anonymous testing list—his response was "only God knows."

Thrilled for Raines, surprised by Rodriguez . . . Clemens/Bonds should already be in and Manny should be right after them.

3arod13
01-19-2017, 06:32 AM
Just a quick correction for you: he didn't have steroids in his urine. Canseco said he injected him and later when a reporter asked if his name would appear on the leaked 2003 anonymous testing list—his response was "only God knows."

My error. Thanks!