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earlywynnfan
01-28-2016, 09:48 PM
Anyone see the Mastro shill bid list that was just released? I'm not sure how exactly they identified the actual shilling, but man, some well-known names on there!

Ken

gorilla777
01-28-2016, 10:52 PM
For sure, quite a read...

ndevlin
01-28-2016, 11:47 PM
Recognized quite a few names on there. A fair number on this board.

What a shame...

bravesfanjd
01-29-2016, 02:12 AM
It was interesting to see the names of the shill bidders as well as Who's auctions in terms of cosigners they were shilling

Quite sad

spartakid
01-29-2016, 11:53 AM
Can you guys provide a link, I couldn't find an article with a list. Thanks!

admin_old
01-29-2016, 02:01 PM
Game Used Universe is aware of the list involving Mastro bidders, which mentions bidders, consignors, and winning bidders, and was offered up by Doug Allen prior to his sentencing. In cooperation with the forum rules, specifically in regard to accusations of wrong doing (rule 16) and unnecessarily discrediting others (rule 17), we ask that the list not be posted to our forum. Thank you for understanding.


Doug Reiser
Administrator

kellsox
01-29-2016, 05:24 PM
Google mastro shill list. Certainly some notable names and an interesting read.

GoTigers
01-29-2016, 05:36 PM
Wow, read the list last night... Very frustrated.

Personally I don't see how this list is in violation of either rule posted previously. It's neither an accusation (accepted documentation from a major court case), or "unnecessarily discrediting". This list help put some people away that were very bad for the industry. I don't see that as unnecessary at all.

Trublubrucru
01-29-2016, 05:43 PM
Out of the shadows and into the light.

earlywynnfan
01-29-2016, 05:54 PM
Interesting take...

Sure, every word of this document might not be 100% proven, but this was from the court itself. Even as a point of discussion, it has some VERY well-known names. It lists several members of PSA. It probably list several forum members, if not more.

I'm a bit surprised: 6 posts, including one from an admin saying "Shh." Yet another, mostly vintage card forum, has over 370 posts and a very lively discussion. I feel this trial and the beginnings of the fallout are by far going to be the biggest story of the year in our hobby.

If it's not against forum rules, anyone who's interested can send over a message or email and I'll point you in the direction of the list.

Ken

kellsox
01-29-2016, 06:05 PM
Please send me the address of the forum with the discussion on this topic since it doesn't look like it can be talked about too openly here. I'm interested in what others are saying/thinking.
Thanks
K
Kelspeck @ gmail . com

GMEN92
01-29-2016, 06:10 PM
I don't understand why the list can't be posted.. As stated it shows several forum members as well as the forum owner, and head of goldin auctions..

Which makes me very concerned..

And actually nobody has been proven guilty in my Eli case but yet that's OK when my name and the topic can be discussed on this forum .

And Ken is very quick to respond to questions and ask that any concerns be brought to his attention.. So I'm sure many are concerned like me and would be nice for Ken to respond about it..

Is it because his auction is live that we can't bring attention to it?

Has this become a one way street??

Thanks..

GoTigers
01-29-2016, 06:12 PM
I saw the lengthy discussion on another forum. It is frustrating that members feel like this cannot be discussed here. Wasn't this forum created to protect collectors?

This large court document has been made public, and admin here says it cannot be posted. Does this protect collectors, or does this protect people named in the document?

earlywynnfan
01-29-2016, 06:13 PM
For sure, quite a read...

Gorilla, you have a bat collection that's nearly unmatched. I know I cringe, then drool when I see you post. This is only a couple-year window into Mastro's shenanigans. Have you purchased through them? I'm hoping you didn't get directly ripped off. (We all were indirectly ripped off, which is why I'm amazed at the crickets here.)

Ken

GoTigers
01-29-2016, 06:28 PM
Wow, read the list last night... Very frustrated.

Personally I don't see how this list is in violation of either rule posted previously. It's neither an accusation (accepted documentation from a major court case), or "unnecessarily discrediting". This list help put some people away that were very bad for the industry. I don't see that as unnecessary at all.

TwinLakesPark
01-29-2016, 06:38 PM
I would love to see this list, could someone please email it to me:

wesholden at gmail dot com

metsbats
01-29-2016, 06:41 PM
Game Used Universe is aware of the list involving Mastro bidders, which mentions bidders, consignors, and winning bidders, and was offered up by Doug Allen prior to his sentencing. In cooperation with the forum rules, specifically in regard to accusations of wrong doing (rule 16) and unnecessarily discrediting others (rule 17), we ask that the list not be posted to our forum. Thank you for understanding.


Doug Reiser
Administrator


Please note we asked that the list not be posted in the forum.

Samets
01-29-2016, 06:46 PM
I've seen this topic discussed on other forums and some of the reasons why those individuals were shilling are interesting to say the least...

yanks12025
01-29-2016, 06:47 PM
Please note we asked that the list not be posted in the forum.


If its allowed to be discussed, how come some posts by other members have been deleted when it didn't show the list.

bravesfanjd
01-29-2016, 06:54 PM
I feel the list should be on every collector website there is this allows collectors a chance to see how auction houses and cosigners have operated and allows collectors to decided who they want to do business with in the future

Is it sad that many industry heavyweights are involved of course it is, there where names on the list that I was shocked to see but it's out there and I think now collectors can use that list to protect themselves and learn from it.

The industry can hide from the list or allow it to be used as a teaching and learning tool for the new wave of collectors and hopefully continue to try and clean up the industry

TwinLakesPark
01-29-2016, 07:53 PM
I have never seen so many moderators watching and moderating a thread before....

metsbats
01-29-2016, 08:14 PM
If its allowed to be discussed, how come some posts by other members have been deleted when it didn't show the list.


Those posts contained references to the list and names.

bravesfanjd
01-30-2016, 12:25 AM
It's sad this board has become so political and that the interests of few are more important then the whole guu community.

Just like in politics follow the money

earlywynnfan
01-30-2016, 09:04 AM
If nothing else, the sheer amount of times "Mastro Auctions" consigned items, bid on items, and won items makes me want to puke.

kellsox
01-30-2016, 09:06 AM
Auction houses are kinda like baseball players in the steroid era- you have to assume everyone is doing something they shouldn't be. The list is further evidence. The moderation and censoring of posts in this thread has been shameful. All to protect the "stakeholders" in the hobby.

1929tudor
01-30-2016, 10:41 AM
Everyone in the hobby wants it to be clean and truthful as possible and when there is a list of guys on the list involved with Mastro in one way or another it should be posted so people can decide for themselves if they want to continue to do business with them if they own auction house or a business. Why is it so secretive on here? It makes everything sound more shady and definitely one sided by not letting collectors know who's on the list. Just my view

metsbats
01-30-2016, 11:01 AM
This list is readily available. When I saw this thread while on my commute home on the bus last night I was able to download it to my iPhone within 10 minutes of searching online. All is being asked that this list not be posted on this thread/site at this point.

Please do not rush to judgement here. The fact that this thread is still opened and was not immediately closed last night should be a positive.

ndevlin
01-30-2016, 11:04 AM
I see both sides- knowing that all of us want to see who was connected with shilling, but one reason I believe it isn't on this thread is to protect those names who were innocent bidders.

Eric
01-30-2016, 01:43 PM
Here is the NY Daily News story about the shill bidding court document
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/yankees-owner-victim-mastro-auctions-shill-bidding-article-1.2514664

jbean023
01-30-2016, 06:08 PM
This was for sure an interesting read, sad to see what some say is the guy with the best overall Chicago Cubs collection on there many times. Didn't name any names, could be any of them!

Don't I remember a post of someone actually reading the full policy of one of the auction houses and it said if we feel an item is undervalued that we may bid or something of that nature? I'm certain I seen that on here awhile ago on a post.

I'm wondering when someone is going to start looking into mlb auctions!!!

earlywynnfan
01-30-2016, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE
Don't I remember a post of someone actually reading the full policy of one of the auction houses and it said if we feel an item is undervalued that we may bid or something of that nature? I'm certain I seen that on here awhile ago on a post. [/QUOTE]

That was Heritage

jbean023
01-30-2016, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE
Don't I remember a post of someone actually reading the full policy of one of the auction houses and it said if we feel an item is undervalued that we may bid or something of that nature? I'm certain I seen that on here awhile ago on a post.

That was Heritage[/QUOTE]

So if every auction house puts that in their policy, that voids out schilling correct?

esigs
01-30-2016, 08:49 PM
Read item #13 from Heritage's Terms & Conditions:

http://sports.ha.com/c/ref/terms-and-conditions.zx?view=terms

emann
01-31-2016, 01:11 AM
That was Heritage

So if every auction house puts that in their policy, that voids out schilling correct?[/QUOTE]

This is a law which applies to Texas only I believe . . . It isn't just the policy of the auctioneer, it is allowed by law in that state.

Regarding the list: I'm assuming there are more than a few of the people listed multiple times in the victim category that could now pursue civil claims—has this been discussed yet? I haven't followed this case closely as I never bid with the auction houses run by Mastro/etc.

jbean023
01-31-2016, 01:16 AM
What is mind boggling to me is that on some other forums, mostly the card collecting forums this discussion is 50 some pages long. I thought card collecting was dying out, then at a couple shows I watched card collectors grab unopened boxes of cards and open them like they are eating their first meal in months and with this shows me they still out number game used collectors by a large margin.

metsbats
01-31-2016, 08:53 AM
What is mind boggling to me is that on some other forums, mostly the card collecting forums this discussion is 50 some pages long. I thought card collecting was dying out, then at a couple shows I watched card collectors grab unopened boxes of cards and open them like they are eating their first meal in months and with this shows me they still out number game used collectors by a large margin.

These are vintage card collectors. Think high end cards like the Wagner tobacco cards, 52 topps Mantle, vintage complete sets, etc all professionally graded. These types of cards are auctioned off like game used items and were very much exposed to the shill bidding. Mastro did a lot of cards more so than game used which is why this affects cards and game used auctions hence the equal concern from card forums.

gingi79
01-31-2016, 11:06 PM
I wish I would have researched all of this 24 hours ago.

bravesfanjd
01-31-2016, 11:31 PM
I wish I would have researched all of this 24 hours ago.

I know what you mean unfortunately I feel guu made a huge mistake and chose not to look out for our community.

I know it's a hard job to moderate and run fourms but I always felt this website and net54 were created to protect the collectors not the kingmakers

I hope at some point the questions a lot of us have are answered

Josh

GMEN92
02-01-2016, 03:09 PM
Yea im a little shocked that something has not been said about it already...

You would think people involved would rather comment on the situation rather than letting people assume what they read is correct,
I find it interesting that because it's in house that nobody has said anything about it.. But just my opinion.. And would like to hear what has to be said..

Guess waiting for the dust to settle...??

staindsox
02-01-2016, 05:21 PM
Yea im a little shocked that something has not been said about it already...

You would think people involved would rather comment on the situation rather than letting people assume what they read is correct,
I find it interesting that because it's in house that nobody has said anything about it.. But just my opinion.. And would like to hear what has to be said..

Guess waiting for the dust to settle...??

Not only are there many large names/auction houses on this list, they are also CURRENTLY ACTIVE AND SELLING in the hobby. I know if I were falsely accused or named in a scandal like this, I would not remain silent. I keep waiting for these people to chime in. If they can't even bother to comment on why their names have appeared in this document, I can only assume there is some level of guilt.

metsbats
02-01-2016, 06:01 PM
Some words of wisdom from Yoda:cool:

kellsox
02-01-2016, 06:18 PM
It is easy for the site/forum that is a significant vehicle of advertising for an auction house to preach patience while auctions were running/concluding.

ChrisCavalier
02-01-2016, 06:49 PM
I am aware, as is Ken, that his name appears as a consignor on the list made public by Doug Allen as part of his attempt to reduce his jail sentence. Ken will not be discussing this matter on any public forum, a matter that is over eight years old and references when he was a private collector five years before Goldin Auctions was formed. However, if it is important for you to hear from him, he will discuss this matter personally with you and has done so with a number of members already. His email address is Ken@GoldinAuctions.com.

I also want to ensure our friends, consignors, bidders and business partners that this list has nothing to do with the current business of Goldin Auctions. When founded in the summer of 2012, Goldin Auctions was built with the interests of bidders and consignors in mind. From its beginning, it was explained to me that Goldin Auctions has implemented extensive ethics, rules and compliance safeguards built in to protect bidders and consignors including:

1. Goldin Auction employees do not have access to maximum bids. Our auction software provider has turned off, at our request, our ability to see your proxy/ceiling bids. A maximum bid placed online will never be known or seen by us in order to hold our auction process to the highest industry standards. This is for both bidder and consignor protection.

2. Goldin does not have access to passwords. While that can often cause an inconvenience when someone forgets their password, it gives bidders the assurance that their account is safe.

3. Goldin has a reserve system. We state the rules on reserves, and they are posted online. This avoids issues of hidden reserves or using shill bidding to meet a hidden reserve.

4. We use the highest authenticity procedures in the business. We will not sell non-authenticated items; we do not issue our own LOAs; we rely on the most respected industry experts for all authentications. In addition, as many of you know, even with these procedures in place we will still routinely pull items during an auction if there is a third-party authenticator error. Further, as many of you have experienced, when concern over an item is brought to our attention we are extremely responsive to any questions.

5. We implement limited credits for any new bidders. We do not give new bidders unlimited bidding rights with us when they register. We restrict them with a strict bidding limit until they have been proven to be credit worthy and legitimate users. Even with other auction references, we still place limits on most bidders initially to protect all other auction bidders and consignors.

For a complete list of our compliance rules, you can click the link below:

https://www.goldinauctions.com/rules.aspx

When I joined Goldin Auctions in February 2013, I researched the way the company was established and made a post as to why I was joining Goldin Auctions. As you know from my creating Game Used Universe in 2005, the credibility of the industry is of utmost importance to me and I will only associate with an entity I believe is committed to consistently doing what is right. I do not feel anything has changed with regard to Goldin Auctions. If it did, I would not continue in my position with them.

Sincerely,
Chris

Guttapercha
02-01-2016, 07:32 PM
If I may give my opinion. I have met both Chris and Ken over the years as a consigner and seller. The people at Goldin auctions have gone above and beyond in helping with my collecting quest. I have never had a problem. Ken has gone way above his time and professionalism to help in teaching, discussing, and guiding me with game used items, many of which were not even in his auctions!
He works his butt off in promoting your items and gets top dollar for doing so.

5toolplayer
02-01-2016, 09:18 PM
Just my 2 cents in looking over this really quick, Case is over 8+ years old and Doug Allen would have thrown Shoeless Joe Jackson's name into the list if that is what his legal team advised him to do to help reduce his sentence.

I'm only going to go off of my dealings with both Ken & Chris & the Goldin Auctions staff. Nothing but professionalism and respect each and every time I've done business with them. Ken has gone above and beyond more then once to make sure I'm taken care of even when its over a small error in the listing or something in that nature.

They have been top notch since the first day I consigned item #1 with them and I'll continue to support them because I have no reason not to.

bravesfanjd
02-01-2016, 11:11 PM
Just my 2 cents in looking over this really quick, Case is over 8+ years old and Doug Allen would have thrown Shoeless Joe Jackson's name into the list if that is what his legal team advised him to do to help reduce his sentence.

From what I understand it was a list put together by the FBI based on records that where not destroyed

My biggest issue with the list is that you see repeatedly the cosigners using the same shillers over a series of different auctions which shows me that it wasn't just a one time helping a buddy not lose money it was a calculated effort to make the item sell for more.

Maybe shilling is just part of the accepted idea of bidding for items in Auction houses and in general but the truth is collectors as a whole need to say enough

Josh

metsbats
02-02-2016, 08:25 AM
From what I understand it was a list put together by the FBI based on records that where not destroyed

My biggest issue with the list is that you see repeatedly the cosigners using the same shillers over a series of different auctions which shows me that it wasn't just a one time helping a buddy not lose money it was a calculated effort to make the item sell for more.

Maybe shilling is just part of the accepted idea of bidding for items in Auction houses and in general but the truth is collectors as a whole need to say enough

Josh

Actually the list was compiled and presented to the courts by the Allen's attorneys not the FBI.

From the NY Daily news:
Documents filed in Chicago federal court by attorneys for a sports memorabilia executive charged with fraud suggest now-defunct Mastro Auctions stole more than $30,000 from Yankee general managing partner Hal Steinbrenner through shill bidding.

According to the documents filed by lawyers for former Mastro president Doug Allen, the Yankee owner was gouged by Mastro Auctions as he bid on more than a dozen lots in 2007 and 2008. The court papers do not identify the items Steinbrenner bid on or purchased from Mastro Auctions, which offered vintage baseball cards and other sports memorabilia to affluent collectors before it went out of business in 2009, but a review of Mastro Auctions catalogues indicates the Yankee boss spent thousands of dollars on unopened packs of late ‘60s and early ‘70s Topps baseball cards.

bravesfanjd
02-02-2016, 11:24 AM
Actually the list was compiled and presented to the courts by the Allen's attorneys not the FBI.

From the NY Daily news:
Documents filed in Chicago federal court by attorneys for a sports memorabilia executive charged with fraud suggest now-defunct Mastro Auctions stole more than $30,000 from Yankee general managing partner Hal Steinbrenner through shill bidding.

According to the documents filed by lawyers for former Mastro president Doug Allen, the Yankee owner was gouged by Mastro Auctions as he bid on more than a dozen lots in 2007 and 2008. The court papers do not identify the items Steinbrenner bid on or purchased from Mastro Auctions, which offered vintage baseball cards and other sports memorabilia to affluent collectors before it went out of business in 2009, but a review of Mastro Auctions catalogues indicates the Yankee boss spent thousands of dollars on unopened packs of late ‘60s and early ‘70s Topps baseball cards.

Thank you for the correction I had read many different things that made it out to be a govt list. I apologize for posting misinformation

Eric
02-03-2016, 04:40 PM
From NY Daily News...

Prosecutors seek four-year prison term for ex-Mastro Auctions president Doug Allen

Sports memorabilia executive Doug Allen is learning that it is not a good idea to piss off the Justice Department.

Prosecutors filed papers in Chicago federal court Monday asking a judge to sentence Allen, who pleaded guilty to wire fraud in 2014, to 57 months in prison because of the former Mastro Auctions president's "outright contempt" for law enforcement.

The feds say the stiff sentence — nearly three times longer than the 20 months co-defendant Bill Mastro is now serving — is warranted because Allen attempted to obstruct an FBI investigation into fraud in sports memorabilia and continued to participate in the shill bidding scheme that was the downfall of what was once the industry's most prominent auction house even after he learned the Illinois company was under investigation.

"Defendant's participation in the instant fraud scheme for seven years demonstrates he has disrespect for the law," Assistant U.S. Attorneys Derek Owens and Steven J. Dollear wrote. "During that time, defendant had multiple opportunities to end the fraud but did not. Instead of stopping after he learned about the FBI investigation in 2007, defendant continued with the fraud scheme - which demonstrates little respect for the law."

Allen also continued to shill bid even after the Daily News reported in 2007 that Mastro Auctions was the target of an FBI investigation into fraud in the sports memorabilia industry, according to the filing.

Allen is scheduled to appear for sentencing Feb. 8 before U.S. District Judge Ronald Guzman in Chicago.

Defense attorneys filed papers last week asking Guzman to sentence Allen to 18 months in prison, arguing that Mastro, the founder and chief executive of the company, was the mastermind of the shill bidding scheme. But the government's response says Allen wasn't just a Mastro underling, but an active participant in the fraud.

Prosecutors said at Allen's 2014 plea hearing that they would ask Guzman to send the Mastro Auctions president to prison for more than 12 years because he attempted to obstruct the FBI investigation. The government said Allen, who had promised to cooperate with investigators in exchange for leniency, warned business associate John Rogers — also under investigation — that he would be wearing a wire for the FBI. Rogers later told the government that Allen had told him about the wire, which the feds say put agents who executed a search warrant at Rogers' home at risk.

The filing also says Allen deserves the stiffer sentence because Allen, not Mastro, contacted collectors to sell what he purported to be an 1860 Cincinnati Red Stockings trophy ball and Elvis Presley after the items had been returned to the auction house because they had been proven to be fakes. Allen also instructed a card restorer to alter a rare and valuable T206 Eddie Plank card without notifying bidders. Altering cards is considered an egregious violation of hobby practices.

The filing estimates the loss due to Allen's crimes is more than $550,000 but less than $1.5 million. But the real damage will never be known because Mastro ordered an employee to destroy company records in 2003.

As the Daily News first reported this weekend, the victims of Mastro's shill bidding include Yankee general managing partner Hal Steinbrenner and former ESPN and MSNBC broadcaster Keith Olbermann.

Mastro Auctions was the leading sports memorabilia auction house for most of the 1990s and 2000s, and it led the way as the company evolved from a mom-and-pop hobby into a sophisticated industry. The company went out of business in 2009 in the wake of the investigation led by the Chicago FBI.

Allen and Theotikos founded Legendary Auctions when Mastro Auctions became defunct. Mastro, Allen and Theotikos were named as defendants in an indictment returned by a Chicago grand jury in 2012.

Mastro, the brother of former New York City deputy mayor Randy Mastro, acknowledge in court that he had altered the world's most expensive baseball card, the T206 Honus Wagner once owned by NHL legend Wayne Gretzky.

As two Daily News reporters wrote in their book "The Card," the alteration increased the card's value significantly and helped spark the sports memorabilia boom of the 1990s. The Wagner currently belongs to Arizona Diamondbacks owner Ken Kendrick, who paid a record $2.8 million for it in 2007.

nickacs
02-08-2016, 10:17 PM
Doug Allen sentenced today to 57 months:
http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/doug-allen-sentenced-to-57-months/

earlywynnfan
02-08-2016, 10:40 PM
Doug Allen sentenced today to 57 months:
http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/doug-allen-sentenced-to-57-months/

I don't think anybody here cares.

Samets
02-09-2016, 07:05 AM
I don't think anybody here cares.

That's quiet a blanket statement.

I bought stuff from these clowns! I care.

G1X
02-10-2016, 02:43 AM
I don't think anybody here cares.

I care, and most sports memorabilia collectors should care. Certainly anyone in the hobby who has ever been burned should care. Not only should they care, they should be rejoicing that something is being done to prosecute those who choose to profit in this hobby through criminal activity.

It is blatantly dishonest and criminal actions such as this that continue to drag the hobby through the sludge at the bottom of the outhouse. Having seen many a fox guard the hen house during my 41 years in the game-used hobby, it is a refreshing site to see the involvement of law enforcement and prosecution of those who are guilty of crimes. Perhaps things won't be "business as usual" now that some of the foxes have gone to jail.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

earlywynnfan
02-13-2016, 12:26 PM
I don't think anybody here cares.

I hereby apologize to Mark and Samets. I will amend my post: I don't think anybody here cares, other than three of us.

Dewey2007
02-13-2016, 02:14 PM
Count me in as someone who cares too. I don't post on here much anymore but still check out the site often. I think you just have a different type of collector demographic here as opposed to the Net54 site among other things so that's why this thread is not getting the same type of responses. I don't think it's from a lack of caring though. I think most everyone wants to see our hobby thrive.

I still bid in auctions every once in awhile and I sure in the hell don't want to get shilled so I'm glad that something is finally being done to address this practice and let's hope that the message it sends is a strong one.

gingi79
02-13-2016, 11:34 PM
I hereby apologize to Mark and Samets. I will amend my post: I don't think anybody here cares, other than three of us.

I'm willing to bet quite a few folks on this site; and so many others, care quite a lot.

"The list" casts shade on quite a wide range of people within our very small population of hobb(ies).

It's my sincerest hope the truth comes out and vindicates those who were swindled versus those who propagated fraud, dishonesty and corruption.