Fraudulent Game Used Football on eBay

[sprint23]

I was recently in contact with a seller on eBay (usrub_vkwjmozkr) about the Game-Used Steelers ball linked below.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=231786446439&alt=web

During our messaging he claimed he was told by the person that gave him the ball it was from the 2015 Steelers vs. 49ers game. Looking at pics from the game the markings seemed similar and he had come down to a reasonable price so I was considering a purchase to use for some autographs. Then I discovered this ended listing.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=381418430952&alt=web

This ball was advertised and sold as a practice ball. Analyzing the photos it is a clear 100% match (every white spot, the scratch in the word football, perfect match). The only exception is the referee markings that have "suddenly" appeared on the ball.

I don't know if the seller makes a habit of this fraudulent behavior but I have messaged him my findings and am awaiting a response (not holding my breath though)

[Jags Fan Dan]

Better check out the thread in the Game Used Memorabilia Discussion area. For some reason I can't copy and paste a link to it, but suffice to say the seller is in serious doubt.

[sprint23]

Just found it. It's a shame eBay doesn't bother to do anything about this stuff.

[AKSaint]

It may not help much but please report the fraudulent item using the ebay "report seller" feature. List the item number for the original real item and then the fraudulent item from <usrub>.

All it lets you do is report the item numbers with no description of what is wrong, but the more of us that can report these sellers, the more ebay will at least "be aware of" them... Glad you found out sooner than later.

Bob

[punter96]

I sent the seller a message calling out the practice ball...I am sure I will not get a response...will post if I do...

[punter96]

Momtoluis purchased both...big shocker...

[AKSaint]

Just sent a message to the seller of the original Steelers ball to let him know what is going on. Don't really expect him to do anything but at least he should know... Included a link to the GUU thread on <usrub> and <momto> for his reading pleasure;)

[AKSaint]

I sent the seller a message calling out the practice ball...I am sure I will not get a response...will post if I do...

Ooops, you beat me to the punch!

[AKSaint]

<jsgolfwin> did respond to the message and he may report the seller. So at least the volume of reports is growing... come on ebay, man up;)

[Phil316]

I was thinking about calling the El Paso Texas police about this seller. This is getting crazy.

[Phil316]

Does anyone have his name and address? Or do I have to buy some chocolate eggs to get it?

[AKSaint]

Does anyone have his name and address? Or do I have to buy some chocolate eggs to get it?

<momto> name is Wanda Yvette Camacho and her I have her personal email. I purchased a GU Saints ball back in 2014 and of course after all the recent posts, I can easily assume that it is a fake. The ball that was shipped to me was shipped from CA but when I was condensing stuff a few months ago (before the fake Brees presentation game ball surfaced) I tossed out the box with the return address... sigh.

Anyway, here is a copy of the text from the email that she sent in response to my queries about the ball I purchased. If fraudulent, things could become interesting.

>>>>>>>>>>

New message from: momtoluisandkati (1144Red Star)

Good morning. I just verified the address on the paypal address and it matches the address you provided. That is awesome news. I help 20 teams in the NFL find Service Members to hold the giant American Flags during the National Anthem, find Service Members that have singing abilities to sing the National Anthem, help find Service Members returning from deployments to "surprise" their families at games during half time and also find the Service Members to do the Color Guard during the National Anthem. It is really not as hard as you might think. I have my points of contacts with different Branches, Active Duty and Reserves. Service Members want to do this. They get a chance to get on the field of the NFL stadiums and stay for the games afterwards. At first I started with the 49ers, the following year I was helping the Raiders and the Chargers, and for the past 7 years I now help many teams. I mainly serve as a liaison. It is voluntary and I enjoy it. At first I was like "How am I going to do this, where am I going to find the Service Members". I get offered tickets to attend the games. I obviously can not attend games in Seattle for example living in CA. So I ask my point of contacts with the teams to give me game footballs. Before I would give the footballs to family members, then the novelty wore off and they no longer think it's cool to get the footballs. Plus I can't take my 2 1/2 year old daughter to the games, it's not a conducive environment for a toddler. Before I would never ask what games the footballs were used in. But I found that I would get the question "What game is the football from" of course my answer would be "I don't know". But, I started asking them when I received the footballs to please let me know what games they were from. And now I know because they tell me what game it is from when they give them to me. Sorry for the long message. But it is a long explanation.
k/r

>>>>>
So for those of you following this thread, thought you might enjoy this. Even if she does have contacts, the blatant falsification of NFL products would likely not be tolerated very well by Goodell and the NFL's legal department.

If any of you have any contacts with the 49ers, Raiders, or Chargers or any contacts with the NFLs Salute to Service program, her statements should be pretty easy to verify as far as obtaining the balls in the first place.

After doing a cursory search I was able to find their address in El Paso and it looks like <usrub> lives at the house as well as the ebay handle seems to match with the person who lives in the house.

If you send me an personal email <Phil316> I can share the personal contact information for them and we can see what we can do as I am incredibly tired of them... goatb at mtaonline dot com. I would love to post all the info here but that is probably not too smart:)

The internet is an amazing place indeed. I would like some chocolate eggs though!!!

[sprint23]

I had also contacted bith urub and the original seller without a response from either. I am glad the original seller responded to you. In the past I have reported item after item and even called several times, shared all item numbers, got a verbal agreement for fraud from rep, but eBay rarely seems to do anything about it. Of course, I will continue to do so.

[sprint23]

For what it's worth I'd love to see it reported to the local police. Even just the hint of law enforcement involvement may be a wake-up call. The ball auction ended on time, if he relists I will post the link so maybe we can all report it. Thanks guys.

[Phil316]

AK Saint what is your email?

[punter96]

I have an ebay account that I no longer use. I am the high bidder on 2 of the 'game used' footballs....going to have a little fun with this....

[AKSaint]

AK Saint what is your email?

Phil, my email is listed near the end of the post that I responded in earlier. It is written out.

[RMoody]

Can someone get me some photos and evidence emailed to me, im friends with a few former NFL players.

RyanMoody 21 Gmail

[sprint23]

If you go to the links I posted you can get the photos of both balls.

[yanks12025]

Whoever is contacting teams, please send me an email. I have a contact with one team that you can let them know and maybe they will do something

boblee89@yahoo.com

[punter96]

I won both...too bad I might forget to pay....

[sprint23]

I won both...too bad I might forget to pay....

Be interesting to see how he handles that "forgetfulness". Hope he brings eBay into it and draws attention to his wonderfully authentic items.

[punter96]

I think I am going to wait a few days, maybe for the unpaid notice to come and then respond with something along the lines that I saw a thread on GUU and I don't believe the items are real and will not be paying for them...

[Juicyfruit66]

Why not call the local police and report it as fraud? With the items being shipped all over the country doesn't it become a federal offence? I'd say especially since they are using military sympathies to peddle their fake story they deserve to be busted. Or call a local news team so they can do an exposé on a local fraud artist.....if it's left to just eBay handling it they won't do anything, eBay makes tons of money in seller fees of all the fraudulent sales.

[patsfan]

I bid on a couple of this guys fake footballs not knowing they were fake. He seemed to have an endless supply so I questioned him and here is his exact reply .....Good evening. I hope you are well. Thank you for your interest. I am lucky to know some front office personnel on some of the teams. I have to be careful. It is not top secret information or anything silly like that. I get similar questions like often. I told somebody the name of a trainer that provides me with footballs to an interested person. I did not want to tell them any name or team. The interested person kept borderline stalking me "not really", but asking me about 10 times a day. I am not exaggerating. I finally just told them the name. That individual kept sending the organization emails and calling them asking them for free items. Anything that the team could give him. I received a text to please never do that again.
When you think about it. All the teams have the names, emails and phone numbers of the organization staff. So since that day, I never disclose names. I learned my lesson. I also have a network of collectors that we exchange items from one team or another. Some of my collector friends like game used jersey, I know one that loves game used cleats (seems weird to me), our little circle of collector friends know that if we come across some respectable players game used cleat, he is always interested. We just know each other by emails, text messages and phone calls. We all live in different parts of the States and one lives in Baja, relaxing on the beach. He goes to San Diego about twice a month, checks his box at the post office and picks up his packages.
It has just been years of collecting and I just have way too much stuff and I feel like it is time to part with some of it. Some of my collector friends will send me their items they want me to sell for them. I am retired, many of them have jobs and do not have the time or do not want to dedicate the time to sell their items on ebay. I say that I am parting with items, today I traded for a Lions ball. I am retired and just do this to keep myself busy.
Sorry for the long message.
k/r

[Juicyfruit66]

He rambles like a suspect trying to cover up lies with new lies.

[punter96]

Far different than the military story several of us were told....

[punter96]

Be interesting to see how he handles that "forgetfulness". Hope he brings eBay into it and draws attention to his wonderfully authentic items.

Received this:

Good afternoon. I hope you are well. Thank You for your interest and congratulations on your winning bid. I have not heard anything from you regarding the payment.I just wanted to let you know that I will be sending "second chance offers" to the other bidders. If they pay before you I will simply cancel this transaction. Have a pleasant day and I hope to hear from you soon.
k/r

Seller Information:
Ruben Camacho
San Ysidro, CA 92143 United States

[punter96]

My response:

Hi – after doing some research, I will not be purchasing this football. I have seen several instances of where you purchased a ball (Steelers ball & Cowboys balls specifically) and then relisted it with “referee markings”. Also, a year ago I asked your other id (momtoluis) how the balls were obtained; which is now different than what you recently told another user. Word travels fast in the collectors space. While I cannot say with certainty that this ball has been altered, there are too many red flags and I refuse to pay for an item that I will always be wondering if it is real or fake. Good luck with the second chance offers, I hope the others do a little due diligence before deciding to accept the purchase.

[patsfan]

I used to like ebays old format where not only could you contact the seller but you could also contact the bidders.... I considered myself an ebay cop because I would check items out and contact bidders to tell them what they were bidding on were fake and what to look for pertaining to what is a legitimate company .........way too many fakes out there

[Phil316]

Sounds like too many sociopaths as well.

[yanks12025]

You should have asked if you could send a money order. Then we could know the address and name.

[yanks12025]

Never mind. Saw it was included already.

[yanks12025]

Did a quick google search for his name and town and it brought up this person.

Ruben G Camacho
2346 Smythe Ave
San Ysidro, CA 92173

619-571-0572

[patsfan]

this guy has another one up on ebay ....a buy it now patriots Denver game used ....about the fifth one of these I've seen http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-England-Patriots-Denver-Broncos-Game-Used-Football-Tom-Brady-Peyton-Manning-/331743207729?hash=item4d3d6fa131:g:hqQAAOSwSdZWe0x h

[punter96]

this guy has another one up on ebay ....a buy it now patriots Denver game used ....about the fifth one of these I've seen http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-England-Patriots-Denver-Broncos-Game-Used-Football-Tom-Brady-Peyton-Manning-/331743207729?hash=item4d3d6fa131:g:hqQAAOSwSdZWe0x h
That's the one I 'bought'...never responded to my message, just relisted it.

[patsfan]

That's the one I 'bought'...never responded to my message, just relisted it.

too funny ... I just contacted him and asked if it had a certificate to verify its authenticity and am awaiting a reply ...and now that I see his phone number listed on a recent post I just may give him a call

[Juicyfruit66]

Those chocolate eggs...he'll have to rely on all those eggs for income now

[Phil316]

Those chocolate eggs...he'll have to rely on all those eggs for income now

I wonder if those chocolate eggs are authentic?

[sprint23]

So if he doesn't file a non-paying bidder alert when the bidder calls him out but doesn't pay, does he just eat the final value fees?

[Jags Fan Dan]

I wonder if those chocolate eggs are authentic?

Probably just mud made to look like an egg.

[Juicyfruit66]

I asked about authenticity , got this :
Good afternoon. I hope you are well. It was a Christmas gift from my brother. He said he actually bought it online. It is from a storage locker the belonged to Terry Glenn that had a lot of his personal items in it. I appreciate your interest and your time.

[bgakladd]

I asked about authenticity , got this :
Good afternoon. I hope you are well. It was a Christmas gift from my brother. He said he actually bought it online. It is from a storage locker the belonged to Terry Glenn that had a lot of his personal items in it. I appreciate your interest and your time.

The Terry Glenn storage unit auction was held in August of 2014 in Columbus, Ohio. I think this one is real. Original purchaser lived in Columbus, Ohio and sold some of Glenn's items on Ebay.

[bgakladd]

Here is the current listing...

[patsfan]

I bought a couple of items from the original seller of terry glenn storage locker items including practice shorts , lightweight nylon practice pullover with pats emblem and glens #88 on the front and a pair of practice worn zubaz.... remember the zubaz :) they ran around in occasionally....all very cool items , For some reason I always thought presentation game balls were all paint ... not stickers ...unless modern ones use stickers

[AKSaint]

That is one of the problems with these sellers. I know for a fact that they do sell some authentic game balls as I have watched them win several eBay auctions, jack up the price, and then attempt to resell. On the other hand, they have also altered several of the game balls they have purchased and then attempted to sell them for ridiculous prices.

I know it is a pain but if we can keep documenting their indiscretions in this thread it can likely be used against them, when someone gets fed up enough to go through the effort of contacting the authorities...

[Krsoneus]

There are several threads about this seller modifying footballs on ebay.
I just came across the original listing of one of the footballs they currently have listed.

Looks like they added the #1 to the football... I can't see the left side of the ball, they may have added the ref # 132 also.

AFTER :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Orleans-Saints-Oakland-Raiders-Game-Used-Football-Signed-Drew-Brees-JSA-COA-/232263715428?hash=item3613ff0a64:g:nQwAAOSwA3dYNOb G


BEFORE :

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-game-used-football-1835104250

[AKSaint]

Thanks for the post Kevin. I just sent off an email to JSA's 2 locations just to inform them that their JSA card is being included on a questionable football. Not sure they will care but thought I would bring this topic out in the open a little more...

>>>>>
Dear JSA Sports,

I am sending this email to you to inform you of an ebay seller in Texas (actually 2 related sellers) who routinely buy generic NFL issued footballs or presentation footballs of lesser players and forge them to fake Game Used footballs by adding Referee markings or changing out the player names to high profile players on Presentation Footballs. The ebay handles for these sellers are: usrub_vkwjmozkr (274 ) and momtoluisandkati (1385 ). There are several extensive threads on Game Used Universe about these two sellers with photos of the before and after balls.

While they do seem to sell some legitimate balls, several are reworked or forged and sold for very high prices up to $2000. The most current ball in question was purchased by this reseller and is seen in the link below. It includes your JSA Certification card. It is a New Orleans Saints ball that was double signed by Drew Brees and initially sold without Referee markings. Markings have been added and now they are selling it as a GU ball with these fraudulent markings. I do realize that your card is only certifying the signature, but thought that you might be interested that unscrupulous sellers are profiting off your reputation as a signature authentication service and selling fraudulent balls.

If you are not familiar with these threads, please take a few minutes to look over them. Some of the posts demonstrate very conclusive examples of the modifications to previously purchased balls and some are just more speculation.

Any recommendations on how to proceed to assist in stopping these 2 sellers for defrauding buyers and promoting a very bad name for the game used collecting community as well as your reputation would be appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,


Bob Gengler
AK Saint

>>>>>
Original ebay listing Brees double signed ball:
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-game-used-football-1835104250

Current Forged Listing Brees double signed ball:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Orleans-Saints-Oakland-Raiders-Game-Used-Football-Signed-Drew-Brees-JSA-COA-/232263715428?hash=item3613ff0a64:g:nQwAAOSwA3dYNOb G

Here is a link to one of the Game Used Universe threads about these sellers:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=66508

[AKSaint]

Just thought I would pull some of the older threads about <usrub> and <momto> together in one place:

>>>>>
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=69286

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=65692

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=65828

[yanks12025]

We should also save before and after photos of the balls here. Because eventually they will disappear off eBay. That saints ball is a joke

[yanks12025]

Photos of after

[yanks12025]

Before

[yanks12025]

AK Saint,

I changed your message little and sent it to a current NFL ref who is also a lawyer, maybe he knows someone in the NFL that would actually care.

[Briggsd719]

I thought about buying the ball because if you look at Getty images you see a td catch by Travis Cadet using a number 1 ball. A little more research I found that the markings on the ball were actually on the right side of real ball not the left. He screwed up. Thank goodness I didn't buy. I sent seller an email got the whole good day, glad to see you are doing well but then said he got from a trusted dealer but knew all about refs and markings.
On the plus side I used money I was gonna use on this ball and bought a patriots ball which by all accounts checks out from seller thechamp33 he didn't seem to know a lot about his balls said he got from his cousin who works for a team. He told me ball was used in 2013 or 2014 I did a little research based off location he's from and found all his balls matched up to refs to colts games. They date anywhere between 2009 through 2012. If anybody is a Ravens fan I found out that the Ravens ball is from 2009 playoffs against the colts. The niners ball was used in 4 games Up til November 1 2009 against colts. The packers ball was used in preseason 2011 against colts. Some cool stuff which I'm 99% sure is legit. Not fans of those teams otherwise I would purchase.