Criticism of this forum

[Eric]

Hello everyone-

I read some things today on mearsonline, which I thought were incorrect characterizations of the discussions on this forum.

In a discussion based on the Game Used Forum questions about the grading of a Manny Ramirez jersey, a reader on mearsonline asked who brought up the questions about the jersey.

Dave Miedema, who's work I usually enjoy, replied that the questions came from "Another game-used chat site that specializes in negativity and bomb-throwing...often with the protection of a user ID (although, to be fair, this poster did identify himself, rather than hiding his identity)."

I posted on their board a message (which I posted previously when Dave Bushing made similar claims) that the suggestion that people make can posts anonymously is factually incorrect. People must register for the forum and Game Used Universe with a valid first and last name and email address and that information is available in a searchable database.

I did not even respond to Mr Miedema's "specializing in negativity and bomb-throwing" comment.

It was followed up by a comment by Joel Alpert, agreeing with Mr Miedema's statement. Mr. Alpert says he doesn't read the forum because there is too much negativity. He said "the concept of debate is not accepted there."

That statement is also incorrect. People are allowed to debate. There are rules on how to do it responsibly and intelligently. Too often, legitimate debates turn into name calling. That's when the moderators are forced to remove comments which have no value in the conversation.

Perhaps that creates the impression that debate is not accepted here, but that is not the intention. People should debate. It's a great way to share information and learn from each other.

Anyway, those misconceptions got me going a bit and I just wanted to address them here.

Eric

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
Interesting how Alpert indicates he does not read the Forum (similar to the many auction houses). Although this is a bit hard to believe, I for one grew extremely tired of his constant shi* stirring on this site and could not be more pleased that he no longer contributes.

In my opinion, the site has improved 10-fold since his departure.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[sammy]

Amend Howard!

I Second That Motion.

[kingjammy24]

"Dave Miedema, who's work I usually enjoy, replied that the questions came from "Another game-used chat site that specializes in negativity and bomb-throwing...often with the protection of a user ID (although, to be fair, this poster did identify himself, rather than hiding his identity)."

1. there is no anonymity on the internet. "the protection of a user ID" is a fallacy only believed by luddites. i could post under the name "scrappy doo" and thanks to the magic of IP address and ISP records, within a few hours, the admins of this site would be able to find my full name and billing address. a user ID offers no protection whatsoever. anyone who believes it does needs to acquaint themselves with this thing we call the "internet".
at any rate, eric is correct. both he and chris cavalier have repeatedly stated, on the mears site no less, that full names and verifiable email addresses are required to post. unfortunately, some people seem unable to grasp things no matter how many times you pound it into them.

2. had dave o'brien posted under the name "chief wahoo", would that have changed any of the facts about the esm manny ramirez jersey? no.
while i abide by the rules of this forum, i personally fail to see the real value of using either a real name or a pseudonym in terms of the information being conveyed. as i've said before, all manner of legal and law enforcement agencies happily accept and act upon anonymous tips. the notion that information only has value if the full identity of the person providing it is disclosed is nonsense. it's the last resort of a person trying to discredit something when they haven't the ability to do so genuinely.

in terms of accountability, as i said before, the real identities of people can easily be surmised whether they use a real name or pseudonym. those that can't grasp that concept shouldn't be online.

at any rate, the comment didn't come from troy. troy actually seemed glad to have received the help. i find it insane that the members of this site actually helped MEARS fix their error and rather than a hearty thank you, the best dave miedema could muster was an insult and an inaccurate one at that.

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

I posted on their board a message (which I posted previously when Dave Bushing made similar claims) that the suggestion that people make can posts anonymously is factually incorrect. People must register for the forum and Game Used Universe with a valid first and last name and email address and that information is available in a searchable database.

I did not even respond to Mr Miedema's "specializing in negativity and bomb-throwing" comment.

It was followed up by a comment by Joel Alpert, agreeing with Mr Miedema's statement. Mr. Alpert says he doesn't read the forum because there is too much negativity. He said "the concept of debate is not accepted there."


Anyway, those misconceptions got me going a bit and I just wanted to address them here.

EricEric - Thanks for the Post. I think the Forum is like a Buffet as you can pick and choose what you want to read and respond to.

My read on the Forum is that the petty negativity is "way down" from when Joel last posted on here. Read some of Joel's old comments and he seemed to jump in the middle of many Posts with counterpoints that did create negativity.

Some of the hot Posts come with point/counterpoint debates on analysis on the many fakes in the industry. Some may view it as negativity and some as educational and some as both. We all know how opinions sometimes go. Read it, don't read it.

Last I looked, it was voluntary to Post on the site and anyone can read Posts on the site. The time that some people take out of their day to do analysis and posts to help others is a good thing---most of the time!

Andrew

[skipcareyisfat]

Alpert grossly overestimated - and probably still does - his relevance to the hobby. I don't recall ever reading anything helpful or insightful posted by him. His concept of debate is laughable. I might already be violation of the rules here, so I'll end with that. The dark clouds that once hung above the forum haven't been around in quite a while. Wonder why?

[bscott]

i joined this forum about two months ago, and like most members, i probably read more than i post.

i've been a baseball fan and memorabilia collector for almost twenty years, and although i currently can't afford to add any new pieces to a much depleted collection, i think this is a great and invaluable forum.
plus it's a lot of fun.

what's not to like?

i think the collective posts in this forum offer keen insight into the minutia of the sports collecting world.

there's basically a free education to be had on this forum. for example, i thought i knew a decent amount about game used baseball bats and jerseys until i started reading through the posts on this forum.
the members here clearly know their stuff, and they are willing to take the time to write about it.

there's honest dialogue. maybe it's the anonymous nature of the online forum that frees people to really speak their minds, but either way, it's a great privilege to have a pool of people who are willing to share their extensive knowledge about all sorts of sports items.

further, it is good to see that many threads on this forum seem to deal with the "self-policing" of the buying and selling of rare or unique items. it's no secret that so many variables contribute to the value (or lack thereof) of a particular game used item, but this forum is a great place to go if one needs help figuring out what they own or want to buy. this is especially true regarding ebay auctions, which seem generally fair but need "policing" every so often.

what i think is great about this forum is that it can really help prevent buyers from heartache. i think a bigger disappointment than losing money is finding out you got taken or bought a "fake" item. the value of game used items lie in the fact that they tie the collector to the athlete and to the game, and without that connection, what's the point of spending all this money? we all might as well do our shopping at The Sports Authority.

(of course, the inverse is true as well: sellers of game used items need to be fair to their customers or their customers will find other sellers to buy from. this forum seems to help keep it all in check.)


i am happy this forum exists. i think it contributes to a better hobby.

thanks to all. it is with continued pleasure that i read your thoughts, insights and ideas.

-b.scott.

[ChrisCavalier]

I did not even respond to Mr Miedema's "specializing in negativity and bomb-throwing" comment.

It was followed up by a comment by Joel Alpert, agreeing with Mr Miedema's statement. Mr. Alpert says he doesn't read the forum because there is too much negativity. He said "the concept of debate is not accepted there."
Let me begin by saying I always speak with great pride when I tell others about the people who contribute to this forum. Contrary to the statements above, you are helping to change the hobby for the better in ways that no one dared image even a few short years ago. I receive calls and emails all the time from people who say they think what we are doing is the greatest thing that has ever happened to this hobby. Think about it, among other things, through this site collectors now have open access to previously undisclosed information, suspect merchandise is being identified through the diligent research efforts and knowledge of this site’s members, liberties that have been taken in calling items legitimate in the past are being revealed, and scammers now are looking over their shoulders.

I want to encourage everyone to please take the “high road” when people try to put you down. Throughout history, those who have created change have often been unjustly criticized by those who stand to lose from that change. Personally, I consider it part of the process, knowing it won’t stop us from making the hobby better for everyone.

At the same time, I have to say when you look at the comments from Mr. Miedema and Mr. Alpert objectively, it is hard not to find them both ironic and amusing. That is, isn’t the accusation that our site is one “specializing in negativity and bomb-throwing” a negative and bomb-throwing comment itself? In addition, aren’t the comments of the person claiming there is too much negativity on our site loaded with their own negativity? And, given the rules on our site, I think it is the ultimate irony that the comments by Mr. Miedema and Mr. Alpert would likely have been removed or edited from this site if they were posted here.

At the end of the day, I can tell you the collecting community finally has a true advocate. That advocate comes in the form of the people participating on this site. Thus, rather than hearing unwarranted accusations, I think you all deserve a heartfelt “Thank you!” for all you are doing for this hobby.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO – Game Used Universe

[bigtime59]

I don't know about you guys, but I miss our former member...you know, the one with the Woodstock avatar. It was always amusing to be regaled with ribald tales of playing Texas Hold 'Em at 4 a.m. w/ 5 Playmates, King Kong and the poker playing dogs...
Every neighborhood should have at least one guy who lives in a sub-spec glass house and has a large rock collection and too much time on his hands!
I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting a little wet around the eyes right now...:o

[3arod13]

"Dave Miedema, who's work I usually enjoy, replied that the questions came from "Another game-used chat site that specializes in negativity and bomb-throwing...often with the protection of a user ID (although, to be fair, this poster did identify himself, rather than hiding his identity)."

1. there is no anonymity on the internet. "the protection of a user ID" is a fallacy only believed by luddites. i could post under the name "scrappy doo" and thanks to the magic of IP address and ISP records, within a few hours, the admins of this site would be able to find my full name and billing address. a user ID offers no protection whatsoever. anyone who believes it does needs to acquaint themselves with this thing we call the "internet".
at any rate, eric is correct. both he and chris cavalier have repeatedly stated, on the mears site no less, that full names and verifiable email addresses are required to post. unfortunately, some people seem unable to grasp things no matter how many times you pound it into them.

2. had dave o'brien posted under the name "chief wahoo", would that have changed any of the facts about the esm manny ramirez jersey? no.
while i abide by the rules of this forum, i personally fail to see the real value of using either a real name or a pseudonym in terms of the information being conveyed. as i've said before, all manner of legal and law enforcement agencies happily accept and act upon anonymous tips. the notion that information only has value if the full identity of the person providing it is disclosed is nonsense. it's the last resort of a person trying to discredit something when they haven't the ability to do so genuinely.

in terms of accountability, as i said before, the real identities of people can easily be surmised whether they use a real name or pseudonym. those that can't grasp that concept shouldn't be online.

at any rate, the comment didn't come from troy. troy actually seemed glad to have received the help. i find it insane that the members of this site actually helped MEARS fix their error and rather than a hearty thank you, the best dave miedema could muster was an insult and an inaccurate one at that.

rudy.

Rudy, I enjoy reading your comments. At first when I joined this forum, you seemed to honest and sometime very hard in your responses. However, over time, I realized that you are a knowledgeable, intelligent individual who not only comes across as a very fair and honest person in your comments and responses., but has no problem admitting if you may be wrong. Even when you questioned my two arod bats (which acutally helped me in correcting the LOA's for the years of the bats), you even came back afterwards and expressed that you could be wrong. Not many are willing to do that.

At times, as I read responses to threads in this forum, I think some enjoy more going out of there way to prove others wrong, than to be more positive and helpful. Many collectors don't know what their doing. Many don't have the knowledage that many in this forum do, so they are looking for help, not road blocks. I belive many collectors are good. It's the many sellers we have to watch out for.

Anyway, thanks to all in this forum who share the knowledge, and most of all, take the time to help others.



Tony

[camarokids]

I don't know about you guys, but I miss our former member...you know, the one with the Woodstock avatar. It was always amusing to wind him up by inquiring about all those superstar jerseys he would offer for sale on eBay, and the surprising lack of commons in his inventory...
Or to be regaled with ribald tales of playing Texas Hold 'Em at 4 a.m. w/ 5 Playmates, King Kong and the poker playing dogs...
Every neighborhood should have at least one guy who lives in a sub-spec glass house and "has a large rock collection" and too much time on his hands!
I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting a little wet around the eyes right now...:o


the guy collects rocks? :confused:

[suave1477]

Well I am not going to say anything about Mr. Alpert I think everyone here already knows the wars we been through and how I feel about him and I will leave it at that.

I am disaapointed with Mr. Medeimas as to the best of my knowledge he is respected in most circles of this hobby ( I could be wrong) / and and dont know why he would put down a related hobby site trying to educate????

[topekabob]

This forum has numerous - and I mean - numerous times - exposed questionable and sometimes outright fake jerseys being sold on ebay, and most egregiously, at the major auction houses. Amazingly, after forum members point out problems/inconsistencies/problems with jerseys that are being sold for sometimes THOUSANDS of dollars, auction houses often ignore them or blow them off or disregard them. Also amazingly, jerseys are "authenticated" by "professionals" who write letters of authenticity based on no provenence or evidence of game use and write "shows evidence of game use" (explain that one to me).

This forum is great, it's enjoyable to read and sometimes interact with people who are interested and knowledgeable about the hobby, and if the auction houses are mad it probably means the forum is catching them too often in their shoddy research.

I still miss James Rast, though.

[allstarsplus]

This forum has numerous - and I mean - numerous times - exposed questionable and sometimes outright fake jerseys being sold on ebay, and most egregiously, at the major auction houses. Amazingly, after forum members point out problems/inconsistencies/problems with jerseys that are being sold for sometimes THOUSANDS of dollars, auction houses often ignore them or blow them off or disregard them. Also amazingly, jerseys are "authenticated" by "professionals" who write letters of authenticity based on no provenence or evidence of game use and write "shows evidence of game use" (explain that one to me).

This forum is great, it's enjoyable to read and sometimes interact with people who are interested and knowledgeable about the hobby, and if the auction houses are mad it probably means the forum is catching them too often in their shoddy research.

I still miss James Rast, though.Topekabob - Don't forget the Forum has also surfaced blatant conflicts of interest.

It would be in some's best interest to discredit much of the analysis done here so some of the crooks could go on with their business of ripping off people.

If just one additional person is educated here and saved time, money, and embarassment from buying a fake---then mission accomplished.

I also commend people like Bob Malandro of Steiner and Barry Meisel of MeiGray who have contributed in a big way on improving the systems out there and have come on the Forum to Post. I would encourage more people to step up and do the same.

Andrew

[sylbry]

It was because of this forum's help, and especially Mike Specht that I was able to win my paypal case against someone who sold me a "Tony Oliva game use bat" that really wasn't a Tony Oliva game used bat.

And it is because of this forum I know have enough knowledge to not make that same mistake again.

As far as I am concerned if you take shots at the overall credibility of this forum then you have something to hide. Yes, there may be a few problems or imperfections here and there but it is impossible to ignore all of the good in order to point out the bad.

Bryan

[TNTtoys]

I have read through this thread with great interest, because it shows the passion that the folks here have towards this hobby and doing whatever it takes to make it a better hobby. It gives me a warm feeling and a real assurance that it is a place I am happy to belong to and want to be going forward.

I don't want to belabor the points previously made by other forum members, because I have basically the same feelings, but I would like to single out one posting within this thread -- the narrative from bscott. This was well thought out and a pleasure to read. I'd like to see more from this guy in future...

[stkmtimo]

I don't know about you guys, but I miss our former member...you know, the one with the Woodstock avatar. It was always amusing to wind him up by inquiring about all those superstar jerseys he would offer for sale on eBay, and the surprising lack of commons in his inventory...
Or to be regaled with ribald tales of playing Texas Hold 'Em at 4 a.m. w/ 5 Playmates, King Kong and the poker playing dogs...
Every neighborhood should have at least one guy who lives in a sub-spec glass house and has a large rock collection and too much time on his hands!
I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting a little wet around the eyes right now...:o

Mark,

This may be one of the funniest things I have read in a long, long time.

Tim

[ham1963]

So that is what happened to our favorite:p :p little bird friend. I thought that Snoopy ate him:D

[earlywynnfan]

As far as "anonymous" goes, the majority of the regulars on this site sign their name on the bottom, and even some who don't are quick to identify themselves when asked.

Ken

[stlbats]

One thing that needs to change here is the email addresses. Some people even post want ads and dont put their email address.

If a person cannott post responsibly enough to add their email address, then maybe they shouldnt post



We need to get email addys back on here

Thanks
Jason
ripken8@bellsouth.net