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View Full Version : Do you ever Wonder?.?.?.?......



JimCaravello
01-20-2007, 09:51 PM
OK - so we all collect game used bats and jerseys and many of you have great stuff in your collection. Do you ever wonder though - is your bat and jersey legitimate? Was it used in a game? Was it doctored or really ever used in a game?

I primarily collect game used bats and have always tried to collect bats with player attributes - Killebrew handles with heavy tar; Yaz tape on the handle and "Game" on the knob; Murcer pad on the handle, or remnants of pad on the handle; Maris tar on the upper handle, etc., etc...........I guess I could go on and on. I feel that if you can find a piece like this - unless the player gave it directly to you, this is the next best thing - Forget the COA or grade - DOES IT HAVE PLAYER ATTRIBUTES????

Sometimes it amazes me as to how much stuff is in the hobby and is authenticated - but is it really game used? Isn't that what we are trying to collect - an item that is game used by the player???

I have joked at previous COAs on bats by leading authenticators that grade bats because they are just made of wood - that's all - they get overgraded and sometimes just graded because they are made of wood - BUT WERE THEY USED??? AND BY THE PLAYER??? Broad topic I know, but as a collector, comfort in what you buy is Confidence in the fact that the player actually touched the item and hopefully used it......sorry, if many of you don't want to talk about this - "I'd rather not - I don't want to really know".......well, you should really know........

I sometimes wonder when I see some of the items along with certificates in the hobby..........just an observation........Would love to hear thoughts of others...........it seems that "Game Used" has become to mean " maybe - could be - I don't know - probably not - ok, looks like a "gamer".................Jim

suave1477
01-20-2007, 09:59 PM
Jim great topic with all my items I always look for the tell tale signs of the players aatributes to use on the Game Used items.

Especially being a big Strawberry collector I see a lot of fakes out there, when I regard to fake I mean the term loosley. Meaning there can be a Game Used out there with too much pine tar on it or not enough, sure it could have been used by Strawberry but its not common he used that much or that little. So why buy it if its something not common to his uses?????

kylehess10
01-20-2007, 10:29 PM
I sometimes wonder the same thing. I don't ever worry about my jersey's though since I only buy them if they show the correct tagging, show game use, and I sometimes only buy from reputable dealers.

For bats I only usually buy if they have blue imprint marks (since it's not like someone is going to go out and buy a dozen baseballs just to fake a bat) Plus I always try to figure out what characteristics the player uses on their bat, like tape,pine tar,certain marks,etc.....also I ofcoarse check to see if that player used the same model bat. I'm pretty confortable with the authenticity on all my bats & jerseys.

jessicawinters
01-21-2007, 10:13 AM
Jim, my dear, this is the GAME USED FORUM. So yeahhhh, that's what we wonder about. I think the title is pretty self explanatory. I can probably say that that's 97% of all that we wonder about. That's why we are here. That's why we have photomatches. That's why we share our knowledge with one another.

"Do you ever wonder?.?.? Was it doctored or really ever used in a game?"

Nahhh. Nice bat, made outa wood. Got a COA. I'm good, Jim.


The guys at Microsoft, "Hmmm, software... do you ever wonder if we could sell them..."

33bird
01-21-2007, 11:37 AM
That won't always work-players characteristics. I'm a Red's collector and I have many, many photos of Joe Morgan from the 70's. Sometimes he used a little pinetar, sometimes quite a bit, but sometimes NONE at all. Even Johnny Bench, who usually used a lot of pine tar, I have photos where you can't see any! Now, the bats I bought of them: Rose, Morgan, Bench, all have pinetar-quite a bit actually, but I'm just saying you can't say they ALWAYS should have lots of tar on the handle, etc. Photos prove this.
G.Todd

metsbats
01-21-2007, 06:30 PM
That won't always work-players characteristics. I'm a Red's collector and I have many, many photos of Joe Morgan from the 70's. Sometimes he used a little pinetar, sometimes quite a bit, but sometimes NONE at all. Even Johnny Bench, who usually used a lot of pine tar, I have photos where you can't see any! Now, the bats I bought of them: Rose, Morgan, Bench, all have pinetar-quite a bit actually, but I'm just saying you can't say they ALWAYS should have lots of tar on the handle, etc. Photos prove this.
G.Todd

I have to disagree with this because what you are mentioning is precisely the problem with photo matching. Photos are taken at different points of the season and it takes time for pine tar to accumulate with use on a bat. A bat in the photo may have just made it out of the box. Take a photo of the player using this same bat a month later and there will be pine tar caked up on it if the player is known to use tons of tar (ex. Wade Boggs, Craig Biggio)

Usually a player who uses pine tar will alway use tar as baseball players especially when it comes to bats I believe are creatures of habit. They will most of the time do what works best for them.

So I think player characteristics is the most important part of guessing whether a player whose's name is on the bat and is one of the things which makes me confortable about a bat I own.

David

33bird
01-21-2007, 08:36 PM
"It takes pinetar time to accumulate?"
Don't get it. If anything pinetar diminshes with use. I agree, that generally, the player's characteristics will be the same overtime, but you can't say, "It's not his because this bat has no pinetar." Trust me. When it comes to the Reds' in the 70's I have tons of books and photos and cards, videos, etc. and they didn't ALWAYS do the same thing with their bats. You say players are, "Creatures of habit". That's a pretty general statement. Saying all players are the same. I don't agree. On the otherhand, SOME players are superstituous. So a player goes into a hitting slump. Blames his bat. Grabs a new one, not pinetar ready, gets a hit, and off he goes! He uses that lucky bat until another slump comes along or he cracks it. Another example is Dale Murphy. Some bats have lots of tar, others have some, and some bats have absolutely none, but still show signs of good use. All I'm saying is be careful about sayings ALWAYS about players. Because I KNOW that the ones I've researched would prove those general statements false. Just my 2 cents.
G.Todd

kellsox
01-21-2007, 08:57 PM
I sometimes wonder the same thing. I don't ever worry about my jersey's though since I only buy them if they show the correct tagging, show game use, and I sometimes only buy from reputable dealers.

For bats I only usually buy if they have blue imprint marks (since it's not like someone is going to go out and buy a dozen baseballs just to fake a bat) Plus I always try to figure out what characteristics the player uses on their bat, like tape,pine tar,certain marks,etc.....also I ofcoarse check to see if that player used the same model bat. I'm pretty confortable with the authenticity on all my bats & jerseys.
I think its wrong to think that there aren't people out there who doctor bats to show "game use". How tough can it be to obtain a player issued bat and add your own game use.(wasn't there a thread a while ago that linked an ebay member buying A J. Damon issued bat then selling a "game used" Damon bat with similar markings to the issued bat?) Unless you get it from the athlete's hands or have a definitive photo match, there will always be a small percentage chance that the bat may not have been used by that particular player.
You " sometimes only buy from reputable dealers"??????

10thMan
01-21-2007, 09:05 PM
Jim, Good one here...
I don`t wonder about one Bat I have...
Brought a "game used" Bat to Tony Gwynn, last Monday on MLK. Watched some B.P. (& Practice drills) & when the time was right, handed it to him in the Dugout. I asked what he thought about the use Traits etc...He swung it around, looked at it & said "it may be my Bat, but I didn`t swing it" I got smoked on this one...

I have more than a Few Gwynn Gamers...One came from a Family Friend, DIRECTLY from Gwynn. Another From "CJ`S" I also have a Signed `98 Game Issued Bat, with tape job, Tar & markings...Full PSA Letter etc...

Sometimes Sellers (being positive here) dont INTENTIONALLY pass fake Bats. I bought a High-end Glaus Gamer & Sosa 170b From the same guy. The Glaus Gamer is impressive.

Tony has been more than nice to me & I respect his Opinion & his request to "not sell this as his bat"

This Bat has other Characteristics I discussed w/Gwynn, I find them interesting. This Bat & it`s Characteristics, were Extremely well Planned, markings dont include any other numbers etc...The Ball marks are from National League Balls & the Barrel & Knob Markings are similar to others I have & have seen on Internet etc...

I was Chatting w/the Guy that sold me this, until I told him Gwynn was gonna sign it, which he did. That was my Clue right there...

Live & Learn I guess,

Sean

metsbats
01-21-2007, 09:37 PM
"It takes pinetar time to accumulate?"
Don't get it. If anything pinetar diminshes with use. I agree, that generally, the player's characteristics will be the same overtime, but you can't say, "It's not his because this bat has no pinetar." Trust me. When it comes to the Reds' in the 70's I have tons of books and photos and cards, videos, etc. and they didn't ALWAYS do the same thing with their bats. You say players are, "Creatures of habit". That's a pretty general statement. Saying all players are the same. I don't agree. On the otherhand, SOME players are superstituous. So a player goes into a hitting slump. Blames his bat. Grabs a new one, not pinetar ready, gets a hit, and off he goes! He uses that lucky bat until another slump comes along or he cracks it. Another example is Dale Murphy. Some bats have lots of tar, others have some, and some bats have absolutely none, but still show signs of good use. All I'm saying is be careful about sayings ALWAYS about players. Because I KNOW that the ones I've researched would prove those general statements false. Just my 2 cents.
G.Todd


Regarding the pine tar I'm referring it takes pine tar time to get that nice caked on appearance. If the the pine tar is fresh you won't see the layers
covered with dirt,etc. That's the increase i'm referring to. Sorry for being not explaining it well. Just to clarify i'm not saying "all players always" but given the characteristics of certain players they may "always" have certain usage patterns. Again that may not have been clear. But I do agree with you that just because a players bat does not have the typical characteristics such as lots of pine tar that does not mean the player could not have used the bat. However given what we know about the characteristic traits of a player like criss-cross tape on Duke Snider or Griffey JR bats, taped knob on Sosa and Shefield bats, typical locations of pine tar on certain spots on a bat, etc we can be more comfortable without having see the player use it or hand it to us that the bat may have been used by the player.

I happen to like to collect bats with lots of use therefore look for the typical charactistics of traits of a heavyly used bat. Other folks like for a clean uncracked bat and still consider it game used. To each its own and this is what make out hobby great.

David

staindsox
01-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Another great topic Jim! I agree with you that use characteristics are one of the best ways to differentiate genuine items from the fakes. Although never full-proof, by knowing a player's use characteristics, you can weed out a lot of forgeries. I think provenance is the other big thing. It has to go beyond the old, "I have an anonymous connection in the Red Sox clubhouse." For example, I think your odds improve if you buy it right from the team store or their charity auction. There really isn't a sure-fire way to know that your item is genuine unless you are lucky enough to make a photomatch. Otherwise, use characteristics and provenance are the next best things. I'm really enjoying this thread, keep posting!!!

Chris