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View Full Version : How do you feel about the NY Yankees retiring numbers of non 'Legends' and NON HOFers?



KGoldin
05-29-2015, 12:26 PM
I love Bernie Williams. I used to do marketing deals for him when I handled marketing for Scott Boras from 98-2002.
However, he is not ever going to make the hall of fame, and his number was retired by the Yankees
Posada will be next to have his number retired then Pettitte.

I don't think any of the 3 of them will make the HOF, they all get numbers retired, they all get plaques. (pettitte MIGHT have statistical numbers to get in, but admitting to HGH use will likely prevent it)

Do you think this is right (that players of this caliber should have numbers retired and get plaques in monument park)
do you feel, like I do, that it cheapens the Yankee tradition and level of greatness originally established with the Yankees monument park with Ruth Gehrig DiMaggio and Mantle?
and, if the Yankees keep this up, when will they start with the 3 digit numbers?

CHIME IN

dangerzone79
05-29-2015, 01:07 PM
Very good question. My immediate thought is that it's ok for them to do it. I'm a die hard Red Sox fan too. I think that the importance of what those guys meant to that club during that time can't be overlooked. They were such a dominant force when those guys were all playing together. HOF or not they were a major part of making the Yankee fan base what it remains to be today. HOF'ers & future HOF'ers like Jeter for instance are also in there because of who was around them. The guys that inspire you to be great, the winning that feeds your greatness, the offense that gives Mariano Rivera a lead in the 9th paving the way for his HOF induction eventually. That is why to me it's fine to retire those guys numbers. Because their importance to that team is greater than their importance to the HOF voters.

godwulf
05-29-2015, 01:10 PM
Speaking generally, and not just about the Yankees, I think the tendency to want to make more of a player than he might objectively deserve in terms of honors and so forth - and retiring somebody's number would certainly be included in that - simply because he was very popular with the fans and perhaps contributed to some of a team's great and memorable moments, is pretty universal.

People - and most Baseball fans would qualify as such - always want to think of themselves as living at the center of the universe and at the most important moment in history. A lot of people get a bit antsy or even angry when only a couple of players are selected for the Hall of Fame in a given year - because that means a lot of their favorite players, the ones they watched and appreciated, were passed over. Just as the number of fans who claim to have been present when so-and-so pitched a perfect game usually exceeds by a factor of at least five the seating capacity of the ballpark where it took place, people tend to want to grab some reflected glory by seeing their favorite players honored in as many ways as possible.

Does it cheapen the whole idea of that particular honor, perhaps even show some disrespect to the true giants of the game? I think it absolutely does.

dougiedshow
05-29-2015, 01:14 PM
I think Bernie is the most deserving of the three from a character and contribution standpoint. I think it's a joke that Pettitte gets a pass for his admitted "handfull" of PED uses, let alone to be honored. Posada's numbers and contribution just doesn't justify it. When you line some of the names up side by side, it just doesn't make sense to me.

jsage
05-29-2015, 01:16 PM
Ken -
Yes I agree with you. Monument Park in Yankee Stadium was a special place for legends. With the addition of many other non super star players it will become less meaningful and not have the same impact.
Jerry Sage

camarokids
05-29-2015, 01:23 PM
I agree Mr. Goldin. Kinda cheapens the other players who have had their numbers retired.

It is very difficult, if not impossible, to compare these modern players to the greatest of the great NY Yankees of yesterday.

yankees506
05-29-2015, 01:40 PM
As a 25 year old yankee fan I can honestly say I love what the yankees are doing. While I can remember going to the original yankee stadium and seeing all the retired numbers and plaques. As a kid it was amazing to see ruth and all the legends out there, and while I started my memories shortly after donnie stopped playing I appreciated what was out there. Now as a young man I can have my own legends, the ones who provided me a childhood with such incredible baseball that I truly believed at one point that the yankees where unbeatable. These same teams tought me the agony of defeat in the 2001 ws. I cant see the problem in honoring the core members of yankee teams that won 4 out of 5 tittles and set wins records. The core players on said teams may not all get into the hall of fame, but that's not what monument park is. Monument park is a testament to the best players and managers who have represented what the yankees are: a winning tradition.

danesei@yahoo.com
05-29-2015, 02:22 PM
Williams being added to Monument Park and having his #51 retired follows in a tradition of Yankees retiring the numbers of players who will likely never make the HOF:

Ron Guidry #49
Elston Howard #32
Roger Maris #9
Billy Martin #1
Don Mattingly #23
Thurmon Munson #15

I can't say that history will look upon Williams' career as one of legend (MVP, 4x WS Champ), but fans do tend to remember the positives of one's career.

My concern is that, with Jeter assured of having his number retired (since Williams and Rivera have now had theirs), the Yankees will have no jersey numbers between 1-10 available for use.

KGoldin
05-29-2015, 02:32 PM
Jeters number was retired when he was still active....did it his last home stand


Williams being added to Monument Park and having his #51 retired follows in a tradition of Yankees retiring the numbers of players who will likely never make the HOF:

Ron Guidry #49
Elston Howard #32
Roger Maris #9
Billy Martin #1
Don Mattingly #23
Thurmon Munson #15

I can't say that history will look upon Williams' career as one of legend (MVP, 4x WS Champ), but fans do tend to remember the positives of one's career.

My concern is that, with Jeter assured of having his number retired (since Williams and Rivera have now had theirs), the Yankees will have no jersey numbers between 1-10 available for use.

kobak8
05-29-2015, 02:48 PM
KGoldin - #2 is not currently retired by the New York Yankees. http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/history/retired_numbers.jsp

KGoldin
05-29-2015, 02:58 PM
KGoldin - #2 is not currently retired by the New York Yankees. http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/history/retired_numbers.jsp

I was at his last game
I thought they made an announcement that no Yankee will ever wear #2 again
so they HAVE retired his number, however I guess they want to have a derek jeter day for ticket sales and tv ratings to have a formal ceremony

Roady
05-29-2015, 04:06 PM
Didn't they put a plaque up for Nelson Mandela?

godwulf
05-29-2015, 04:12 PM
And away we go! :D

sox83cubs84
05-29-2015, 09:40 PM
To a lesser degree, we have the same thing here with the White Sox. Several non-HOFers have retired numbers, including Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, and Paul Konerko all hve retired numbers, plus Harold Baines had his number retired after the first time he was traded from the White Sox (1989), and played for over a decade afterwards. On the other hand, the Cubs did not retire Andre Dawson's #8 for the Cubs because he didn't go into the Hall of Fame as a Cub. He wanted to, but Copperstown overruled him and he's as a result enshrined as an Expo.

Dave Miedema

volunteer
05-30-2015, 12:41 AM
I would put Paul O'Neill and Mike Mussina ahead of a lot of those other guys.

bgold
05-30-2015, 07:22 AM
Guys like Bernie and Andy are enshrined because all of the kids who watched them play are now professionals/married and will come out to the stadium with THEIR kids and spend $$$. The Yankees aren't drawing as well as they have in the past (even on the road) and enshrining someone like Guidry (however deserving), does nothing for their bottom line.

It's a shame that Monument Park and retired numbers have been reduced to a marketing ploy.

At the end of the day, it's a business. We all love sports, but this is an industry that is driven by profit, not the "right thing".

And speaking of the right thing, the fact that the Mets only retire HOF players makes me sick. Handing out Keith's #17 (for example) to anyone with a pair of cleats is an injustice to his time as a Met.

So there! I make no sense and am happy to play both sides.

Cheers

coxfan
05-30-2015, 07:49 AM
I've felt for a long time that teams in general should honor names and numbers through plaques, etc. but not retire numbers. The system's front-loaded, in that later players may be less likely in time to get their numbers retired, because the team's running short of numbers! That problem has actually occurred with some college football teams. Recently the ESPN baseball commentators were half-jokingly suggest that the Yankees might have to go to square roots, Pi, fractions, etc. for future numbers.

a couple of years ago in a similar thread,I pointed out an historical analogy. After the Romans renamed July and August for Julius Carsar and Augustus Caesar, they faced an awkward dilemma: they had to offer the next month to the next emperor. Fortunately Tiberius refused, saying they'd run out of months before they'd run out of emperors! So September through December were left unchanged. ( Source: Will Durant's volume " Caesar and Christ")

That historical analogy points out an additional problem: Once standards are lowered for anyone, it becomes awkward to raise them again in future.

KGoldin
05-30-2015, 07:58 AM
Last two posts hit my thoughts on the head
Standards being lowered to appeal to a younger audience or for marketing hurts the significance of the achievement
and I'm serious
At this rate they will have to go to triple digits on uniforms

Buccaneer Madden
05-30-2015, 10:07 AM
To me the Yankees can do whatever they want. If the Mariners wanted to retire Jay Buhner or Edgar Martinez's numbers that would be fine with me and neither of them are going to the HOF but they meant a LOT to the team and the city.

gingi79
05-30-2015, 08:45 PM
The Yankees are going to have 21 numbers retired for 23 players. (Mo and Robinson #42 and Dickey and Berra #8) Just to compare, the "Yanks of the NHL", the Montreal Canadiens have only 14 numbers retired.

Also the other teams with a double digit number of retired numbers in MLB are the Giants and Dodgers with only 10 each!

My only two thoughts are that they did win 25 titles in their first 100 seasons (27 total now) Conversely, people seem to forget how many Yankee greats were cherry picked off of other, smaller market teams.

metsbats
05-30-2015, 09:00 PM
Didn't they put a plaque up too for Nelson Mandela?


http://m.yankees.mlb.com/news/article/64505028/

That's actually true:eek:

(was going to delete this post but saw this article)

metsbats
05-30-2015, 09:09 PM
http://m.yankees.mlb.com/news/article/64505028/

That's actually true:eek:

(was going to delete this post but saw this article)

Personally don't think Williams, Ped-it, or Posada should have a plaque in Monument Park and it should be reserved for the all time greats like Mantle, Dimaggio, Berra, Jeter, and Rivera. It cheapens the accomplishments of these all time greats. Plaques and statues should be reserved for HOF-ers IMHO. I think David and Ben hit it on the head: these plaques will help sell more tickets in the future. Typical Yanke$$ marketing ploy.

Masimen
05-30-2015, 10:31 PM
The Yankees are going to have 21 numbers retired for 23 players. (Mo and Robinson #42 and Dickey and Berra #8) Just to compare, the "Yanks of the NHL", the Montreal Canadiens have only 14 numbers retired.

Also the other teams with a double digit number of retired numbers in MLB are the Giants and Dodgers with only 10 each!

My only two thoughts are that they did win 25 titles in their first 100 seasons (27 total now) Conversely, people seem to forget how many Yankee greats were cherry picked off of other, smaller market teams.

Gingi, how many Yankee greats were cherry picked? Of all the retired Yankee numbers you have 1 that was signed as a free agent (Jackson), 1 that was purchased (Ruth) and 1 that was acquired in a trade (Maris). The rest are all guys that came to the big leagues with the Yankees. So if you kick the 2 that are strictly in as managers and include the 2 that will be retired later this year that leaves you with 19 players and of those 19 there are 2 you could say were bought. It's fine to hate a team but the argument that their greats were cherry picked does not fly.

Roady
05-31-2015, 09:06 AM
http://m.yankees.mlb.com/news/article/64505028/

That's actually true:eek:

(was going to delete this post but saw this article)
I appreciate you leaving the post up. Wish you had left it the way I worded it though. ;) That part you deleted was true too.

BRONXBOMBERS1
08-11-2015, 07:51 AM
Hi Guys!! ok Look grant it they were great players and I am a huge Yankees fan!! But how do you not retire Paul O'Neill #21 the number is not used among the up coming Yankee players!! but no one can wear it as well it was taken out of circulation from what I read the last player that attempted to wear it was approached by both Jeter and Mo and said its not worth the aggravation now also here is a player that played hurt!! gave it his all!! No PEDS!! and was named by the boss The Warrior!!!
Seriously next year I would retire his number 21 then Jeter number 2
So that from beginning to end the Yankees retired numbers was started with a captain Gehrig number 4 and ends with another captain Jeters number 2
I'm surprised that the number 21 is not retired throughout all of baseball like Jackie Robinson #42 after all Roberto Clemente was the first recognized Latino to break into the majors why not!! Oh besides that's why Paul O'Neill wore 21 after Clemente
One more quick note Google Paul O'Neill there is a photo of him as a boy at a Reds vs Pirates game in the photo in the outfield is Roberto Clemente how surreal is that one that in years to come not only you would wear 21 in the majors but play right field as well cool true facts!!

Chris78
08-11-2015, 08:23 AM
Every year the Phillies induct someone into the Wall of Fame, which has a plaque like the Yankees. This year, Pat Burrell, was the inductee. Some Phillies fans had mentioned that he was not worthy of induction to this, which has similarities to this topic.

I personally believe that Pettitte, Posada, and Bernie Williams are all worthy of the Wall of Fame idea (they probably were all better than Pat Burrell), but having their numbers retired is going to far. Maybe the Yankees need to rethink the retiring of numbers and focus on this approach instead. Not sure if any of the earlier comments mentioned this idea or not.

gingi79
08-11-2015, 10:43 PM
You are correct Steve, I misspoke in my final comment about the Yanks history of cherry picking players from other teams. I was wrong in that assertion and had my facts wrong. Sorry about that.

What I meant to say was that from the days prior to Babe Ruth until free agency and the MLB Draft (instituted to give teams parity), players chose which ball club to sign with. The best players signed with the best teams. The Yanks have always been winners and therefore signed the best talent.

Like you said, Maris was traded for, Ruth was purchased and Reggie was a FA. In the age where players picked their teams, Gehrig, Mantle, Berra, Ford, Dickey, DiMaggio, Rizzuto, et al chose to be Yankees because they wanted to continue to win.

coxfan
08-12-2015, 07:51 AM
MLB history has never provided a level playing field. The Red Sox secretly shopped around Ruth, and the Yankees' huge bid was made to outdo everyone else. MLB in general delayed expansion and diversification of cities, partly because small-market clubs had to sell ( not trade) their best prospects to balance the budget even in reserve-rule days. That was especially true of two- team cities before the 1950's, such as Boston ( Braves and Red Sox), Philadelphia (A's and Phillies) and St. Louis (Browns and Cards.)

In the 1950's, the Kansas City A's ownership had a blatant conflict of interest with the Yanks, resulting in a number of one-sided trades. At one point, three of the Yanks's eight starting position players (Maris, Clete Boyer, Lopez) were recent A's. Boyer had been traded to the Yanks In Circumvention of an understanding that he wouldn't be, by the team that traded him to the A's initially.

The Yanks always had the advantage that they could promise World Series money to new signees, at a time when the $12,000 WS winning share was double a rookie's salary.

Swoboda4
08-12-2015, 04:54 PM
As I watch the Dodgers last night I'm amazed how they don't retire numbers like the Yankees. Number 14 is still being used (Hodges) as they argue for him to be in the Hall of Fame.