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Birdbats
03-04-2015, 02:10 PM
So, out of curiosity and boredom I purchased 2 of these "Game Used Greats" boxes. Produced by Just Minors with a run of just 68 boxes. The checklist looks pretty good and I've heard of the company before so I went for it.. Hey arrived today and I proud to announce that I recieved what appears to be one of the "chase items".

Here is the item being sold.

http://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/2014-just-minors-game-used-greats-baseball-hobby-box#details

what bat did you get?!

I'll post pictures soon.. Just want to let the anticipation build. But anyone who is thinking of purchasing a box may want to hold off..

100% Genuine Albert Pujols Game Used Bat!! Compltete with Minor League ball marks, Heavy Tar, Very Poorly repaired crack/break, and evidence of Tape removal!!!!!!!

Honestly, it looks a whole lot better in the pictures. I'll try to post some better ones tonight. The one time I get a "hit".. it ends up being this. I'm trying to laugh about it, but this is a freaking disgrace. Does anyone know if this LOA is from a banned forum member?

More of this Gem..

If it's from around 2005. Wouldn't it have MLB ball marks not minor league ball marks???

I will give you $50 for it and you can keep the LOA. :D


I saw this also and after seeing the "chase" list -- it is a huge gamble -- so I passed.

Wow. Just, wow. Have you told them you'd rather have a Pujols game-used bat. :D


More of this Gem..

Jimmy,

Can you please point out the differences between these 2 Pujols bats?

So, On top of warning my wife that she may see "Just Minors" in our search history, I have to send out a slew of negative emails tonight... Awesome chase item!

Thanks for the response ZenithSports. I have a lot of questions myself, there are so many red flags with this bat it appears to be more than just a mistake or a difference of opinion.

I don't feel like I'm the only who's been taken here, I'm sure Just Minors purchased this as a Game Used Albert Pujols bat, and Dacardworld has advertised it as such. The product which contained this bat has been de-valued for both of those companies.

Offering my $230 back doesn't quite cut it. That's the equivalent of a major card company offering a Babe Ruth autograph as a chase item. Then if the item is proven to be non-authentic they offer to reimburse the "winner" the price of a pack of cards.

The other bat is a 2008 Billy Butler. It has a Just Minors LOA and appears to be legit. I'll try to get some images up tonight

Here is the Butler.. I dont really have any concerns with it..

Just to follow up and let everyone know, I emailed ZenithSports at the email they provided in the earlier post.

I told them an Authentic Albert Pujols Game Used Bat would fix the situation since that's what was advertised and sold to the other companies. I feel like simply reimbursing the $230 falls short.

I'll update this thread if/when, I hear anything back.
Thanks,

That's fine if that's what you think the law would decide.. But personally I don't give a damn if all they'd give me was 230. I'm beyond sick and tired of these companies selling crap and then giving a simple apology and doing the minimum (if anything). They can step up to the plate and try to make things right.. Or we can all say enough is enough. Email Leaf, Just Minors, and the BBB and shut these guys down. They have yet to email me or anything. I'm over it. I don't want their damn money. I'll donate it to whoever you guys want me to. Just once.. Just one time.. I'd like to see someone come out and say.. I screwed up, I'm sorry, I'll make it right. Instead they post on here.. Don't give a personal name.. And an info@email. A faceless company with no responsibility.

If they came in here and said.. "I'm sorry, this sucks, but I can't do a Pujols game used bat, I can't afford it, etc".. If there was a shred of responsibility I'd let it go and settle for questions answered. Instead we get.. "If you're not satisfied, here's money go away".. I see it all day long and I'm tired of it.

I was aware of that site before, but did not know they were providing bats in this product. I feel like we're getting off track here..

It's adding to my frustration that everywhere else on the forum, they post as GameUsedBat. and now that we're questioning the authenticity of this bat, they post under ZenithSports and can't sign it as Ryan or whoever else.. Am I alone on this??

This bat would instantly fail authentication by any legitimate 3rd party. I don't really think we should open it up to speculation that Pujols may have swung it once or twice and then donated it. You could honestly say that about any prostock bat found on eBay, goodwill, etc.

I'll be taking the next steps at some point today and update the thread. They have not returned my email at this point.

JDF5244- I'd like to hear more about the bats you recieved from this product. What were the players you recieved? Did they have a Just Minors LOA or a letter like I recieved with the Pujols bat?

If settle for questionable.. Its fraudulent I have a problem with.

Should say "I'd settle for questionable". I can't type on my phone

I dont believe the item was doctored.. but I believe 100% GameUsedBat.com knew the bat was not used by Pujols and deceived the dealer and hoped to deceive me. I cant believe this is what we're discussing on this thread.. Fraudulent vs. Not as advertised.

These guys are selling bogus items.. I've shown proof.. they've not commented.. and it appears nobody really cares. Does anyone here think that if you hold yourself in high enough regard to write LOAs and sell to top companies.. then you couldnt tell by glancing at this item that it is not an Albert Pujols Game Used Bat??

I'm going the distance with this. You can all look the other way if you want.

I'm becoming pretty disappointed in the reaction on this site. A fellow forum member has been caught selling a bogus item to a major memorabilia company. They have not posted any explanations, and they advertise that they also sell "game used" memorabilia to Topps and Leaf.

For all the talk about authenticity/integrity, etc on this site, I thought this would raise more of a stir..

Chris/Moderators, I would ask that you ban Ryan Hilberth, GameUsedBat (aka ZenithSports) from this forum.

Thanks Nate, I'm in the process of reaching out to DACardworld, Just Minors, as well as Topps and Leaf. Not so much to be reimbursed on any level, but to let them know one of their vendors has been found to sell non-authentic game used items. I'm also planning on taking steps beyond that.

I'm not trying to be smart.. but name something on this bat, and its wrong.. The ball marks, the location of marks, the pine tar, the amount of use, the evidence of tape on the handle. There is honestly nothing that points to pujols on this bat. Thats why I feel that this is not a mistake or a difference of opinion, but intentional.

So, I've emailed Topps, Leaf, Just Minors, and DACardWorld outlining what has happened. Mainly to inform DACardWorld that their product line may contain more bogus items, and to alert Just Minors, Topps, and Leaf that a vendor they used has been found selling a non authentic item to include in retail product. I've also told them I'll be discussing this with legal council and notifying the FBI.

If/when I don't get a response from these companies, I'll follow up with phone calls and more emails. I'd encourage anyone who reads this and cares about this hobby to email any or all of the companies below. Please let them know you are aware of the situation and expect it to be resolved/addressed, if they value their reputation as a company who values authenticity


Just Minors- info@justminors.com

DACardWorld- service@dacardworld.com

Topps Trading Cards- support@topps.com

Leaf Trading Cards- CS@LeafTradingCards.com

I will continue to update this thread and as I reach higher in each company, I will provide more email addresses where you can help voice your concerns.

And in addition to this, I'll be posting on card forums in the near future with an outline of the situation. I'll provide emails to the various companies and let those collectors know that these large companies used Ryan Hilberth as a vendor in their product lines as well.

With all due respect..This is a ridiculous attempt at an excuse. Your basically saying they could have given me a Tee Ball bat with Pujols written on the barrel in magic marker and I'd have no repercussions as long as it was used in a game.. Albeit a tee ball game.

In this world/situation you're creating, do you realize the amount of small print that would be necessary with every single transaction you make daily? Imagine the book you'd have to sign when buying a tank of gas..

And I disagree bc they did not provide what was advertised and accounted for in the LOA.. It clearly states this bat was used by Pujols circa 2005 with the Cardinals..

You're also saying everyone busted in Operation Bullpen could've gotten off if they were selling retail items that were used while the owners were playing a game of rock paper scissors... It's just not true.

This is a little overdue but I wanted to give a quick update on the Pujols bat. DACardworld reached out to me and was very helpful. I also recieved a call from Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf. He offered to forward images of the bat to Pujols and see if we could get confirmation directly from him. I sent images and reasons for my concern, but we haven't heard from Pujols yet. I'm extremely impressed with Brian and his offer. This bat didn't come from his company but he was willing to reach out and help.

I've been in contact with Just Minors and also sent them images and reasons I don't feel this bat is legit. They discussed my concerns with the "authenticator" but at this point they are standing by the bat and LOA. Just Minors is aware that Pujols may weigh in, but we both agreed to go ahead and send it to PSA since we may not hear back from Pujols. Right now thats where it stands. Ill update this thread with the PSA Loa and let you guys know if Pujols comments and if a resolution is reached.

Thanks for the update.


This is a little overdue but I wanted to give a quick update on the Pujols bat. DACardworld reached out to me and was very helpful. I also recieved a call from Brian Gray, the owner of Leaf. He offered to forward images of the bat to Pujols and see if we could get confirmation directly from him. I sent images and reasons for my concern, but we haven't heard from Pujols yet. I'm extremely impressed with Brian and his offer. This bat didn't come from his company but he was willing to reach out and help.

I've been in contact with Just Minors and also sent them images and reasons I don't feel this bat is legit. They discussed my concerns with the "authenticator" but at this point they are standing by the bat and LOA. Just Minors is aware that Pujols may weigh in, but we both agreed to go ahead and send it to PSA since we may not hear back from Pujols. Right now thats where it stands. Ill update this thread with the PSA Loa and let you guys know if Pujols comments and if a resolution is reached.

Jimmy, why didn't you make this comment on the original thread? Now there are two threads going on the same issue (maybe admin can combine these two and delete this comment I just made, leaving the following).

So DACardworld "reached out and was very helpful"? In what way? Have they figured out a way to wave Tinkerbells pixie-stick and turn the bat into a real Pujols gamer? And Brian Gray's offer, albeit helpful, is a day late and a dollar short. These types of things should be done prior to putting the item out there as something it's not. If you don't know what you're selling, then don't sell it. Now that you've been called to the mat, take the responsibility for your mistake. Again, Jimmy, I would take their offer and ask for your money back. The bat is garbage.

I seriously doubt Pujols will comment. Why would he want to get involved in this controversy? Even if he does, it will likely be a generic comment that will not shed any concrete evidence on the bat. He's probably pissed given the fact a bat he gifted to someone, or worse yet was stolen from him, has now appeared in the market as a Pujols game-used bat someone is trying to profit from.

And we wonder why athletes get crotchety and treat fans indifferently at times? When they're always wondering if someone is trying to pull a fast one on them, how can we blame them?

I don't know how Brain Gray from Leaf would have been involved previously since it's not his deal. He had nothing to do with it.

ndevlin
03-04-2015, 05:42 PM
That's unfortunate. Ryan is a member on here, and I believe his biz partner is too? Maybe they could give you a refund.:)

marino13
03-04-2015, 05:56 PM
So, On top of warning my wife that she may see "Just Minors" in our search history, I have to send out a slew of negative emails tonight... Awesome chase item!


Time to clear history with "Just Minors" ... :eek:

staindsox
03-04-2015, 06:27 PM
That's unfortunate. Ryan is a member on here, and I believe his biz partner is too? Maybe they could give you a refund.:)

+1. If he wrote a COA for the bat, he should stand behind it.

zenithsports
03-04-2015, 06:44 PM
Hi everyone. Just saw this thread for the first time, sorry for the delayed response. If you are unhappy we would absolutely refund your purchase price of $229 that you paid for the Just Minors mystery box. Don't hesitate to contact us at anytime at info@gameusedbat.com.

sportsnbikes
03-04-2015, 06:52 PM
Hi everyone. Just saw this thread for the first time, sorry for the delayed response. If you are unhappy we would absolutely refund your purchase price of $229 that you paid for the Just Minors mystery box. Don't hesitate to contact us at anytime at info@gameusedbat.com.

I'd prefer to hear an explanation on how this bat was placed in your stock if it's not legit.

seanbaseball
03-04-2015, 07:14 PM
Thanks for the response ZenithSports. I have a lot of questions myself, there are so many red flags with this bat it appears to be more than just a mistake or a difference of opinion.

I don't feel like I'm the only who's been taken here, I'm sure Just Minors purchased this as a Game Used Albert Pujols bat, and Dacardworld has advertised it as such. The product which contained this bat has been de-valued for both of those companies.

Offering my $230 back doesn't quite cut it. That's the equivalent of a major card company offering a Babe Ruth autograph as a chase item. Then if the item is proven to be non-authentic they offer to reimburse the "winner" the price of a pack of cards.

I agree. Offering a refund is not even close to fair.

Chris78
03-04-2015, 07:31 PM
So, out of curiosity and boredom I purchased 2 of these "Game Used Greats" boxes. Produced by Just Minors with a run of just 68 boxes. The checklist looks pretty good and I've heard of the company before so I went for it.. Hey arrived today and I proud to announce that I recieved what appears to be one of the "chase items".

Here is the item being sold.

http://www.dacardworld.com/sports-cards/2014-just-minors-game-used-greats-baseball-hobby-box#details


What was the other "Game Used Greats" bat you got?

Yeah, it appears you got a game used minor league bat with Albert Pujols on it. At least you got one of the better "named" bats. Wonder what the Henderson, Alomar, and Yount bats looked like...

Chris

CampWest
03-04-2015, 07:41 PM
:rolleyes:

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About Game Used Bat.com

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CampWest
03-04-2015, 07:43 PM
The other bat is a 2008 Billy Butler. It has a Just Minors LOA and appears to be legit. I'll try to get some images up tonight

Billy did have an exclusive deal with JM to sell his game used from 2005 until recently. I've not seen a JM authenticated Butler bat that did not pass my test. Should be pretty safe on that one.

sportsnbikes
03-04-2015, 08:09 PM
The other bat is a 2008 Billy Butler. It has a Just Minors LOA and appears to be legit. I'll try to get some images up tonight

Is the Butler for sale? I have been looking for one. It's 1 of the last 2 I need to complete the starting lineup of the 2014 Royals team.

Phil316
03-04-2015, 09:05 PM
Personally I think the laws would rule in favor of the 230 refunded as that would make it whole as the 230 is all you spent.

Seriously though I have you come to a solution that both of you can live with.

CampWest
03-04-2015, 09:08 PM
yeah, its a good Butler. He did not use a lot of ash in his career, almost entirely maple, but he did use ash part-time for a brief period when the "maple bat controversy" (caused by all the two piece, spear shaped breaks) was at its peak in 2008.

ndevlin
03-04-2015, 09:29 PM
That's fine if that's what you think the law would decide.. But personally I don't give a damn if all they'd give me was 230. I'm beyond sick and tired of these companies selling crap and then giving a simple apology and doing the minimum (if anything). They can step up to the plate and try to make things right.. Or we can all say enough is enough. Email Leaf, Just Minors, and the BBB and shut these guys down. They have yet to email me or anything. I'm over it. I don't want their damn money. I'll donate it to whoever you guys want me to. Just once.. Just one time.. I'd like to see someone come out and say.. I screwed up, I'm sorry, I'll make it right. Instead they post on here.. Don't give a personal name.. And an info@email. A faceless company with no responsibility.

It's Ryan(on the COA) and...

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=13810&highlight=Gameusedbat.com

Did you know of this "company" before or were you just making a general statement that they didn't list a name when they posted?

ndevlin
03-04-2015, 09:47 PM
I was aware of that site before, but did not know they were providing bats in this product. I feel like we're getting off track here..


I gotcha. Sorry, not trying to get off track.

I didnt either. I thought they called it quits some years ago, but still buying bats on their own.

Regardless, I think you should get more than just your money back. Defeats the purpose of getting the best bat out of the bunch.

But my question is, does Ryan and Daniel owe you a Pujols or equivalent, or does Just Minors do via those guys?

RMoody
03-05-2015, 01:26 AM
The problem with all this is disclourse and transparency, to a degree every buyer is impacted unknowingly by this.

Let's be honest with ourself, these "mystery boxes" allow a company to dispose of unwanted, lower tier items at well more than face value. They do this on the hope that your willing to risk that investment to get the big ticket return.

So "damages" here aren't just laying on one buyer. Countless others bought under the assumption they could get something that was ultimately not legitimate in the first place.

Sure a "refund" sounds nice, if your going to refund everyone who was essentially falsey advertised too.

However wouldn't the right thing be to provide a legiment version (or cash value) of what was represented. If you can't do that, perhaps just sell what you have to a person who actually wants it for its fair value. Even when that means holding stock for years while it diminishes in value.

But then again, I'm sure it's more fun and profitable to create a golden goose to trick people into chasing. Or in this case, I guess it would you chase a golden goose but find out best case scenario you were getting a bronze one.

helf35
03-05-2015, 08:21 AM
Im under the asumption that this is a Pujols bat that was used by a unkown minor league player? Is there any chance it was used by Pujols and given to someone later and used in the minors? I know zilch about Pujols charactaristics so im just curious.

TwinLakesPark
03-05-2015, 11:57 AM
Sorry for the ignorance, but I am trying to figure out what is wrong with the bat?

Brucefan32
03-05-2015, 12:15 PM
If I'm not mistaken the COA says its a Pujols bat from 2005 minor leagues and he wasn't in the minors. Could be wrong though.

JDF5244
03-05-2015, 12:18 PM
I'm totally confused here too....what is wrong with the bat? I read the COA and it doesn't say anything about it being used in Minor League games (unless I missed it).
I have bought 6 of these 'Game Used Greats' bats from this product and have not had any problems (that I know of).....

ndevlin
03-05-2015, 12:19 PM
If I'm not mistaken the COA says its a Pujols bat from 2005 minor leagues and he wasn't in the minors. Could be wrong though.

???

The COA says circa 2005 used by Pujols while with Cardinals. It also mentions it has ink transfers from MLB baseballs. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong COA on this thread.

coreystack
03-05-2015, 01:07 PM
I've caught minor league balls during MLB batting practices.

Specifically, at Tigers bp's in the spring of 2008. I also caught MLB balls. There didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to whether it was going to be an MiLB or MLB ball. It was just random.

yankees506
03-05-2015, 01:27 PM
Yep exactly what i expected when I saw two pujols bats on this checklist..... My initial thought was "with no sell sheet showing the exact bats, they are probably one of the many questionable pujols bats out there" sure enough!!!!! Maybe the other one is legit, ask for pictures. But don't hold your breath

JDF5244
03-05-2015, 02:02 PM
I've actually purchased seven bats from this product:
- Robin Yount
- Craig Biggio
- Freddie Freeman
- Alex Gordon
- Mark Texeira
- Carl Crawford
- Michael Choice
I'd have to go back and look at the COAs, but to the best of my memory at this moment, most (if not all) had something from Just Minors.

yankees506
03-05-2015, 02:06 PM
By questionable I mean it's not 100% legit. Fraudulent would mean we have proof the use was doctored with an intent to deceive. Not sure you have a fraudulent item, just not what was advertised.

camarokids
03-05-2015, 03:54 PM
Jeff Scott of birdbats.com is the the expert on Pujols' Cards bats....

http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Notes%20and%20Articles/Pujols%20Bat%20Use.htm

yankees506
03-05-2015, 04:44 PM
And in addition to this, I'll be posting on card forums in the near future with an outline of the situation. I'll provide emails to the various companies and let those collectors know that these large companies used Ryan Hilberth as a vendor in their product lines as well.

Jimmy, I know I can understand why your frustrated, but others on here who are not into pujols may not know why your so up in arms about the bat. I can say I also am not comfortable at all with the bat knowing how a pujols bat "should look". However they never showed or advertised the bat that was in the product and it was that exact ambiguous description of "Albert pujols game used bat" with no explanation of provenance or image that kept me from buying a box. Let's say you took this all the way, I mean all the way. You would lose in the end because the provided you exactly what was advertised, a "game used" bat with Albert pujols name on it. Who used it and during what games was not guaranteed by them. Yes I'd be just as upset as you but with these kinds of items it's a risk you take and I was not comfortable with this product.

yankees506
03-05-2015, 05:07 PM
The loa from a non reputable dealer??? If the loa was from psa Dan I'd understand what you where saying. I doubt they are going to replace the bat, I have no dog in this fight but I've seen so many similar situations play out I can't help but give my opinion. They provided a game issued (maybe) pujols bat With non pujols use characteristics. I hope they do give you a pujols bat your comfortable with. I just don't see it happening, hope I'm wrong

camarokids
03-05-2015, 05:09 PM
Yeah, I can see some slick lawyer saying that. It is a game used bat and has Pujols' name on it.

It doesn't make it right.

Spread the word Jimmy!

helf35
03-05-2015, 05:39 PM
I'm not trying to be smart.. but name something on this bat, and its wrong.. The ball marks, the location of marks, the pine tar, the amount of use, the evidence of tape on the handle. There is honestly nothing that points to pujols on this bat. Thats why I feel that this is not a mistake or a difference of opinion, but intentional.

I'm not trying to argue your point because I believe you have a valid one and I hope you get it resolved the way you want, I am just trying to understand what exact info you learned from the bat since your first post. You called it a gem yesterday and now nothing is right on the bat. I and a few others who nothing about Pujols items would like to know what exactly changed your mind on this bat since yesterday?

sportsnbikes
03-05-2015, 05:46 PM
I'm not trying to argue your point because I believe you have a valid one and I hope you get it resolved the way you want, I am just trying to understand what exact info you learned from the bat since your first post. You called it a gem yesterday and now nothing is right on the bat. I and a few others who nothing about Pujols items would like to know what exactly changed your mind on this bat since yesterday?

I think he was being sarcastic when he said it was a gem.

helf35
03-05-2015, 05:49 PM
Got it Lost in Translation.

RMoody
03-05-2015, 06:02 PM
Jimmy, I know I can understand why your frustrated, but others on here who are not into pujols may not know why your so up in arms about the bat. I can say I also am not comfortable at all with the bat knowing how a pujols bat "should look". However they never showed or advertised the bat that was in the product and it was that exact ambiguous description of "Albert pujols game used bat" with no explanation of provenance or image that kept me from buying a box. Let's say you took this all the way, I mean all the way. You would lose in the end because the provided you exactly what was advertised, a "game used" bat with Albert pujols name on it. Who used it and during what games was not guaranteed by them. Yes I'd be just as upset as you but with these kinds of items it's a risk you take and I was not comfortable with this product.


So wait, http://i57.tinypic.com/335h5ic.jpg

If he was he was named Alberr Pujols, would you have been ok with that little fella getting mailed. I'm sure he was used during a game, if not hundreds Albert played in.

sportsnbikes
03-05-2015, 06:03 PM
Tiger I don't believe anyone is turning a blind eye. We all get it that you're upset and I would be too. But I think many looking at this don't understand. We are not experts on Pujols. The sense of urgency is probably a little greater to you because are the one who got ripped off. I had never heard of this company before and my GU collection started after all these supposed reputable companies were caught. So this really doesn't surprise me and not up in arms because to me it seems to be more of the rule than the exception these days. I will be more than happy to join your campaign against this company. It's really too bad people put the almighty dollar over integrity. I for one could never sell an item as something it isn't; even if I got ripped of in a deal. I'd take the loss and move on.

Let me know if there's anything I can do besides writing the mentioned companies letting them know I will no longer be purchasing their products.

seanbaseball
03-05-2015, 06:12 PM
I think too many people "take the loss and move on". Its time that guy get really scared to rip people off. Time for the Tiger to attack:eek:
And clearly this is a bad Pujols bat in Every way!

sportsnbikes
03-05-2015, 06:20 PM
I do not mean that I wouldn't do anything about it. I'm saying that I would move on without in turn ripping someone else off.

danesei@yahoo.com
03-06-2015, 02:03 AM
Oh, and that was definitely a raw deal regarding the bat. I'd call DACW to follow-up on the bat, as they may be willing to replace the bat with one from a more legitimate source.

chakes89
03-06-2015, 05:20 PM
Do you have a picture of the knob?

suicide_squeeze
03-08-2015, 01:51 AM
Wow, what a read.

And what a disgrace.

Jimmy, first off, I'm with you across the board. Forget the fact the bat carries not ONE single Pujols characteristic, but the minor league ball marks makes the whole thing insulting. And the amount of use is beyond excessive. A bat used by Pujols doesn't exist with use like that. But again, the MiLB ball marks.....just WOW.

coreystack, are you really going to argue MLB teams throw MiLB baseballs to MLB hitters during BP during a season?

But Jimmy, TAKE your refund. Don't let these small timers take you, even if you consider it chump change. It's YOUR money and the gig is up on this little costume ball.

coreystack
03-10-2015, 11:49 AM
Suicide Squeeze: I'm not arguing anything. I was simply pointing out that I personally caught MiLB balls at Tigers batting practices in spring 2008 (could have been the road team batting, I don't recall). The majority of balls were regular MLB balls, but on occasion there would be MiLB mixed in. As to this bat, I am no expert, and wouldn't offer any opinion.

My only "agenda" is to come here to seek assistance and advice from people that seem to know far more than I do about this stuff, and get advice on the various Tim Wallach items I pick up, as Wallach related stuff is the focus of my collection (http://timwallach.blogspot.com/search/label/1988%20Game%20Worn%20Expos%20road%20jersey).

I really feel like your comment is way out of line. I have caught MiLB balls at MLB batting practices. I'm sorry if that offends you.

suicide_squeeze
03-11-2015, 07:04 PM
Suicide Squeeze: I'm not arguing anything. I was simply pointing out that I personally caught MiLB balls at Tigers batting practices in spring 2008 (could have been the road team batting, I don't recall). The majority of balls were regular MLB balls, but on occasion there would be MiLB mixed in. As to this bat, I am no expert, and wouldn't offer any opinion.

My only "agenda" is to come here to seek assistance and advice from people that seem to know far more than I do about this stuff, and get advice on the various Tim Wallach items I pick up, as Wallach related stuff is the focus of my collection (http://timwallach.blogspot.com/search/label/1988%20Game%20Worn%20Expos%20road%20jersey).

I really feel like your comment is way out of line. I have caught MiLB balls at MLB batting practices. I'm sorry if that offends you.

coreystack,

Sorry if you were offended. I share the same agenda, that is if you're being truthful, but apparently have less patience. It's kind of akin to living longer: The more you see what's really going on in the world, the more cynical you can become if you allow it.

When something strange going on in the hobby is brought to our attention, and by strange I mean something that just doesn't add up, a user sometimes can jump in, usually one with a severely low post count...like yours...and make an outrageous claim to subtly support the joker who is being exposed for wrongdoing, whether that wrongdoing was intentional or otherwise.

Your comment struck me as being placed in a timely manner to insinuate there could be a logical explanation for the MiLB transfer marks on a Pujols bat that was offered publicly as a game used bat. Those kinds of claims, especially while coming from someone who is self-proclaimed as looking to others for answers who are more seasoned than he is, are suspicious to guys like myself who have completely stepped over "cynical" and have moved on all the way up to "watch out for the pile on the floor". These kind of comments, albeit if sincere are welcome and add to the knowledge sharing, often serve no other purpose than to muck up the understanding of what's really going on. Because that is what they are intended to do. So we, the fellow forum members, read these comments and choose to comment or not on how we perceive them.

I sincerely didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I also admittedly have no idea what kind of baseballs are used at Detroit Tigers spring training games. If for whatever reason MiLB baseballs were miraculously sent to the big league club in Detroit from one of their minor league affiliates...a strange claim to begin with...for spring training use, BP or otherwise, I suppose a few could then end up finding their way into a MLB bag of BP balls. But how that would translate to ONE Pujols bat, void of ANY player characteristics, being blessed with having itself marked up to holy hell with that miraculously traveled bag of MiLB baseballs, then ending up in the hands of the fine seller offering up this fantastic financial windfall of an offering because he's a swell guy, a champion in the industry who chose to become a popular seller instead of auctioning off that fine Pujols gamer in an auction as almost all of us would have......just seems a tad too spectacular for my brain cells.

So what was the connection that you were trying to make to the Pujols bat? That your insinuation could help to explain the MiLB marks on one of his supposed gamers with excessive use, no player characteristics, and never before seen MiLB ball marks on the bat? As someone who has been collecting for just shy of 32 years now, I find your comment saying you find my comment way out of line, way out of line. But I, unlike you, surely won't let it ruffle my feathers. I'll just comment on it, as I did, and hope we adults here can handle the help our fellow collectors are willing to offer. And that would be intelligent reasonable comments that make sense, not ones that are outlandishly thrown out there that may be intended to cloud the issue when there is no chance of that possible.

I do wish you luck with your Tim Wallach collection. He should be the manager of the Dodgers, and very well may be if they fail again this year under Mattingly. Maybe Tim will win a World Series or two and you might end up with quite a collection?

Steve

sox83cubs84
03-11-2015, 07:16 PM
[QUOTE=suicide_squeeze;375668

[coreystack, are you really going to argue MLB teams throw MiLB baseballs to MLB hitters during BP during a season?

Steve: I've gotten two MiLB baseballs in MLB BP sessions, althogh both were roughly 20 years ago: A Midwest League ball tossed to a small group of fans by Ellis Burks at a game in Comiskey Park, and a Dave Henderson foul ball that was from the International League that I caught on the fly at a Royals BP session at County Stadium in Milwaukee. Very rare, but it can happen.


Dave Miedema

camarokids
03-11-2015, 07:54 PM
I used to own a Toby Hall signed game used Home Run Bat that also had and an International League ball mark on it......

So the fact that there is a minor league ball mark on the Pujols bat would not disqualify the bat.

Apparently there is plenty wrong with the bat.

In general a minor league ball mark would not disqualify a major league game used bat as being a legitimate game used bat.

Disclaimer: I am not sticking up for the person who wrote the LOA on the supposed Pujols bat.

suicide_squeeze
03-11-2015, 08:04 PM
[QUOTE=suicide_squeeze;375668

[coreystack, are you really going to argue MLB teams throw MiLB baseballs to MLB hitters during BP during a season?

Steve: I've gotten two MiLB baseballs in MLB BP sessions, althogh both were roughly 20 years ago: A Midwest League ball tossed to a small group of fans by Ellis Burks at a game in Comiskey Park, and a Dave Henderson foul ball that was from the International League that I caught on the fly at a Royals BP session at County Stadium in Milwaukee. Very rare, but it can happen.


Dave Miedema

Hi Dave,

Really happy you're back and feeling well again.

I don't for one second doubt this has happened in the past.

All I'm saying is how does that translate to MiLB transfer marks riddling a game used Pujols bat? Silliness.

Steve

STLHAMMER32
03-11-2015, 08:30 PM
I have to disagree that it would not disqualify the bat from being authenticated as being classified as game used when the marks are from minor league transfers.

There will always be unique examples of players who once used a store model bat for an at bat or something very strange but that doesn't mean we can assume a store model bat was used in a game until proven otherwise just because it has happened before. If we allow for very very small percentage situations to cloud judgment when authenticating that is a slippery slope to be on. Let's just call this what it is.....A Pro model Albert Pujols bat with use inconsistent with that of Albert and not used in a major league game

bgakladd
03-11-2015, 10:39 PM
Is this a possibility of how an Albert Pujols game model Cardianls bat gets minor league ball marks on it? Here is my example: Back in the late 1990's and early 2000 years the San Diego Padres would visit minor league affiliate Fort Wayne Wizards for an exibition game in Fort Wayne Indiana. I would almost believe the Wizards supplied Midwest league game balls since they hosted the game. Here is a pic of Tony Gwynn with some Wizard players and his bat. Again they played an exibition game also. Now, is it possible in 2005 the Cardinals played an exibition game against one of their minor league affiliates and Puhols left or gave a bat to someone in the Cardinals organization??? And if he did give one away was it used by a minor league player?? Again just a thought but if they didn't play any exibition games then my comparison doesn't matter. It all depends if one was played.

ndevlin
03-11-2015, 10:48 PM
No, no, no. I appreciate your response, but the bat is bad.

If the bat was offered to me for $50, I would pass.

bgakladd
03-11-2015, 11:40 PM
Is this a possibility of how an Albert Pujols game model Cardianls bat gets minor league ball marks on it? Here is my example: Back in the late 1990's and early 2000 years the San Diego Padres would visit minor league affiliate Fort Wayne Wizards for an exibition game in Fort Wayne Indiana. I would almost believe the Wizards supplied Midwest league game balls since they hosted the game. Here is a pic of Tony Gwynn with some Wizard players and his bat. Again they played an exibition game also. Now, is it possible in 2005 the Cardinals played an exibition game against one of their minor league affiliates and Puhols left or gave a bat to someone in the Cardinals organization??? And if he did give one away was it used by a minor league player?? Again just a thought but if they didn't play any exibition games then my comparison doesn't matter. It all depends if one was played.
Guess this was what I was looking for, an exhibition game against one of the Cardinals minor league clubs in 2005. With the same senerio as the Wizards against the Padres. My guessing was the Puhols bat being left behind or given to someone on the Springfield team and used by a player with that players bat chararistics and not Puhols.

danesei@yahoo.com
03-13-2015, 05:51 AM
Could someone explain why my post was removed from the thread? I don't think I made any comments that were without merit.

If a product was sold (the entire run of bats at $299 retail) and one of the key pulls turns out not to be as advertised, offering a refund of the current sale price of the product ($229) by Zenith is unreasonable. That isn't a fair value estimate, which would be defined by the ERV of the prize or market.

suicide_squeeze
03-13-2015, 09:38 AM
Guess this was what I was looking for, an exhibition game against one of the Cardinals minor league clubs in 2005. With the same senerio as the Wizards against the Padres. My guessing was the Puhols bat being left behind or given to someone on the Springfield team and used by a player with that players bat chararistics and not Puhols.

Yes, bgakladd, this is one possible explanation.

I guess what I'm getting at, is how far do you guys want to reach to put together an argument that this Pujols bat is an authentic game used bat of his? My rule of thumb is if you've got to get spectacular in defining possible truths about a piece, you may want to rethink it's heritage. In this case, I don't even think there's an argument.

We're stretching to lengths of discussing balls used in spring training batting practices, or the possibility of Pujols leaving one of his bats behind either by choice or as a gift....and in doing so someone else peppering that baby with "game use" (which on its own accord appears to be going through some sort of refinement of description as to what constitutes real game use), as justification for arguing this could be a Pujols game used bat?

The question simply comes down to how in need some of you are to talk yourself into believing this Pujols bat has a shot at being a legitimate game used Albert Pujols bat. I am not trying to come off harsh and say there is NO WAY that bat could be a Pujols game used bat. What I am saying is it doesn't have characteristics that, in my experience, would place it in the Pujols game used bat category. I wouldn't own it for any price. But that's just me.

Nate and STLHAMMER32 are giving good advice, if you choose to accept it. The bat is "A Pro model Albert Pujols bat with use inconsistent with that of Albert and not (likely) used in a major league game." And I would add, undesirable to any collector seeking authentic pieces.

Steve

JDF5244
03-13-2015, 10:07 AM
Apologies in advance for what may seem like a silly question (after 8 pages of various posts on this topic) however I'm still unclear how it has been determined that the ball marks are MiLB and not MLB.
Can someone please advise?
J

gorilla777
03-13-2015, 08:23 PM
Jimmy, any update on this deal?

Thanks, Ben

admin_old
03-14-2015, 10:09 AM
Could someone explain why my post was removed from the thread? I don't think I made any comments that were without merit.

If a product was sold (the entire run of bats at $299 retail) and one of the key pulls turns out not to be as advertised, offering a refund of the current sale price of the product ($229) by Zenith is unreasonable. That isn't a fair value estimate, which would be defined by the ERV of the prize or market.


I apologize for any confusion. Your post was deleted as it was a response to posts that violated forum rules. Particularly rule #16- "In instances where a forum member is identifying an item in the hobby they believe to have issues, the poster should clearly state their findings in the form of an opinion and provide adequate rationale for why they believe there is an issue. When possible, we recommend that the poster questioning an item attempt to contact the seller of the item and allow at least 24 hours for the seller to reply before posting. This will prevent postings that may be generated based on misunderstandings of an item. In addition, while this forum is designed to help educate collectors, we will not allow comments that accuse entities in the hobby of participating in any form of criminal wrong-doing. Any posts suggesting criminal wrong-doing should be brought to the attention of the moderators immediately."
After the conversation was cleaned up, your post no longer applied and would only continue a discussion that violates the forum policy. Let me know if you have further questions.

Stefano61
03-17-2015, 10:27 AM
I still don't get why the ball marks should come from minor League balls...besides that, I purchased a couple of month ago a "Game used great" box and was lucky enough to fin a 1980-83 Paul Molitor used bat.

Nnunnari
03-17-2015, 12:25 PM
I still don't get why the ball marks should come from minor League balls...besides that, I purchased a couple of month ago a "Game used great" box and was lucky enough to fin a 1980-83 Paul Molitor used bat.

Do you mind posting pics of the Molitor? Would be interested in knowing what quality that bat is.

Stefano61
03-17-2015, 02:44 PM
here's the Molitor bat

suicide_squeeze
03-17-2015, 11:47 PM
Apologies in advance for what may seem like a silly question (after 8 pages of various posts on this topic) however I'm still unclear how it has been determined that the ball marks are MiLB and not MLB.
Can someone please advise?
J

On a MiLB baseball, the blue player logo has stars on it arching over the player image. You can make out a few of those star transfer marks, backwards, in the blue fields.

Nnunnari
03-17-2015, 11:51 PM
Looks like a good Molitor bat with light use.

Wrigley2010
03-18-2015, 12:23 AM
I still don't get why the ball marks should come from minor League balls...besides that, I purchased a couple of month ago a "Game used great" box and was lucky enough to fin a 1980-83 Paul Molitor used bat.

Stefan, was this the same Molitor Bat that was showcased in a break on Youtube?

I was going to purchase two of these to send to my brother who is over seas. Honestly, after seeing the Molitor pulled on Youtube and now this Pujols I changed my mind. While the concept is certainly a novel idea it is also one that comes with great responsibility.

I know of one MLB team that does a "Mystery Bat" and it's the Tampa Rays. Is anyone aware of any other teams that do something similar?

Stefano61
03-18-2015, 03:51 AM
Stefan, was this the same Molitor Bat that was showcased in a break on Youtube?

I was going to purchase two of these to send to my brother who is over seas. Honestly, after seeing the Molitor pulled on Youtube and now this Pujols I changed my mind. While the concept is certainly a novel idea it is also one that comes with great responsibility.

I know of one MLB team that does a "Mystery Bat" and it's the Tampa Rays. Is anyone aware of any other teams that do something similar?

yes it is...I'd say I'm more than satisfied with the Molitor's bat; considering what I spent for the box, it was a pretty good catch. I'd say the game usage is little more than light considering all the ball marks and few stitch marks, certainly far from the "heavy" game use signs described in the gameusedbats certificate