Exposing sources

[kingjammy24]

it's long been understood by many in this hobby that, in many cases, when someone procures items from a team source, they must keep their source confidential. once, when implored to share the team source where he obtained a jersey, for example, bernie gernay said something to the effect his sources might lose their jobs if such information was revealed.

a recent comment on this Forum that "with Yankees items you can only go so far as to exposing sources" got me thinking again about "source confidentiality". many are aware that prior to the yankee/steiner arrangement, the yankees apparently went after collectors who obtained their game used jerseys. it might've had to do with the fact that the yankees considered the items to be stolen.

after all, if a team source is selling items and these sales need to be kept strictly confidential then how can such an arrangement be anything but improper? how can i think it's all legit or that the items aren't stolen?
team sources don't own the uniforms so they're not theirs to sell. uniforms are the property of the team. if such transactions were completely legit and approved by the team, then why would there be a need to keep them secret?

it's a theme i run into often in this hobby. a seller will drag out the usual line of "obtained from an impeccable team source!", i'll ask who their source is and they'll say they can't reveal their id otherwise the source would get in trouble. well if a transaction is such that your source would be fired if the team was aware of what was going on, then why would anyone want to be involved in such a transaction? for the thrill of owning stolen property?

personally, i'm more than willing to disclose the sources of all of my game used items. the truth of the matter is that i'm proud of how and where i obtained my items. it's part of the provenance and i take pride in the pedigree of my items. for those of you who feel you must keep your team sources secret, can you please enlighten me as to why?

(p.s. of course, i realize that many times the "impeccable team source" needs to be kept secret because they don't actually exist)

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

(p.s. of course, i realize that many times the "impeccable team source" needs to be kept secret because they don't actually exist)

rudy.That is great. Yes, this thread was on the "For Sale" section based on a Yankees Clemens WS 2001 jersey that Jetefan was selling. I will copy the portion you are referring to for this Post.


Re: Jersey's for Sale Jeter-Pujols Clemens Etc....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JETEFAN http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=28530#post28530)
Andrew,
Your points are well taken, . However I recieved this jersey from someone I have been dealing with for many years as he is connected with Yankees items,

Once again your points are well taken and I agree with you as to proving authenticity, but as you know with Yankees items you can only go so far as to exposing sources.
Thanks for input
George

George - Great sources certainly need not be shared, and it is you that has to be comfortable with your sources which it sounds like you are.

I think it was important for you to know that there are a lot of Clemens jerseys that Steiner sold out there that were sold as Game Issued including the 2 WS 2001 home jerseys.

In addition, there were dozens of size 48, 50, and 52 blank game issued available which could easily be turned into a Clemens, Jeter, Matsui, etc.

Prior to Steiner getting into the Yankees agreement, it was really difficult getting a real Yankees game used "star" jersey. So my question is, why do you think there are dozens of perfectly tagged Clemens, ARod, Jeter, Matsui out there without Steiner COAs. Eric just posted Misturini's inventory which included several game used Yankees stars jerseys. There can't be all these people with all these strong contacts. The numbers just don't add up.

The Yankees still use the same internal controls they did pre-Steiner so it makes no sense.

I have read your feelings before about Steiner and much is justified, but I think Steiner's prices have begun to reflect the supply/demand out there. Yes, star players will still be expensive but you know the old saying, you get what you pay for......

Andrew

[Eric]

Another thought on the team source

Let's say for instance, someone lists an items as coming from a team source- that by no means makes it a legit item.

It's possible that a dealer can buy team issued blanks from someone associated with the team, which then have numbers and nameplates added.

Technically you could still say they came from a team source or an impeccable source, but that doesn't mean your Peyton Manning with the lineman's sleeves is real.

Eric

[RobSteinmetz]

With my dealer's cap on....My biggest challenge is not selling merchandise, it's buying legitimate merchandise. Simply put, the number of dealers continues to rise, and the supply of legitimate merchandise available at "wholesale" prices continues to dwindle. In fact, I obtained less than half the amount of game used equipment in 2006 than I did in 2005.

Given the high degree of competition involved in obtaining legitimate game used memorabilia, I make it a policy not to reveal specifics about my sources to my customers. It's too easy to find just about anything you need to know about someone on the internet, and giving even the slightest clue as to whom I obtain items from could result in my losing a contact. I don't knowingly purchase anything that is stolen, but I choose to keep all my contacts private because I don't need to lose them to one of the vultures who buy and sell this stuff.

While I realize it is in a collector's best interest to know exactly where an item comes from, this is a business, and in a highly competitive marketplace, protecting my sources is paramount (not to shield them from the law or the wrath of team ownership, but to shield them from going to another dealer, or worse yet, selling on eBay or directly to collectors).

With my collector's cap on....I have a pretty extensive personal collection of both Cubs and Cardinals game used equipment. While I realize I probably have more knowledge on the subject than your average collector, the provenance of an item really means nothing to me. If it's real, it's real. While I enjoy knowing that my Pujols glove was handed to me by Albert himself, I don't enjoy that glove any more or less than my '70 home Fergie Jenkins flannel that I bought on eBay this month from a guy who has no clue where it originally came from. Maybe 20+ years of experience affords me the security not to have to worry about provenance, I don't know....or maybe I'm just stupid.

Just a few thoughts.

[kingjammy24]

rob,

interesting reply. although most of the reasons i've heard always seem to mention that the source would be in trouble if they were revealed, i did realize that some keep their sources secret in order to prevent others from getting in on the action. now granted i'm not a dealer, but if all of these transactions are on the up and up, then i wonder how effective a strategy that really is? given, as you said, that almost any piece of information can be found these days on the internet and team media guides, if i was a dealer envious of one of your purchases, i'm not entirely sure i'd need much info from you. if it was all legit, then there could only be a small handful of people i'd need to contact. common sense would tell me to start with the director of marketing and/or merchandising and follow the trail. the contact info is readily available to the public.

anyway, this is starting to get off topic. mainly i was referring to those who say they protect their sources specifically because "they'd be in trouble if revealed". it's common knowledge that things are "slipped out the back" and my point was, do you really want to buy something that was obtained in this way? some dealers almost seem to boast that such methods are their main source. some seem to think it lends an air of legitimacy to their items when they mention they were obtained through a secret team source and that things often "slip out the back". for me, it seems as legit as buying electronics from the back of a van in an alley. it hardly seems something to boast about. reminds me of the recent story of the orioles employee caught stealing. "i bought it from a thief, but he was employed with the orioles, so you know it's good!"

regarding your "collector's cap" comments about provenance: i agree that if an item is good, it's good. however, every item requires a leap of faith. with some items, that leap is miniscule. with others, it's quite large. take your fergie jenkins for example and let's say that it's a perfect 10. despite the fact that it's a 10, there's still a small chance that it's not what you think it is. rare yes, but unless you personally had jenkins hand it to you after a game, that small chance must exist. now let's add some provenance to it. let's say you personally purchased the jersey from jenkins with written documentation. all of a sudden that small leap of faith just become smaller. you may enjoy your jenkins as much as your pujols, but your pujols requires a smaller leap. for me, that's what provenance does. it doesn't make a bad item good. it simply reduces the leap of faith. i believe the very nature of collecting in this hobby requires leaps of faith, even for those with 20 yrs of experience. it's what this hobby is inherantly about. we rarely get to collect a jersey or bat from a player after a game. therefore, we all have to take leaps of faith. we just try to make those leaps as small as possible. for me, provenance helps shorten it. do you really feel, in this respect, it means nothing?
(if so, it's a little ironic given that many in the hobby feel that provenance from authenticgamers.com increases the odds of legitimacy).

rudy.

[JETEFAN]

Teams have hundreds of employees, (Players. Admin. office staff etc) though teams may not make items availiable or consider the items "TEAM PROPERTY" many. many items are given to emloyees, other players, fans etc. Many of these people turn around and for whatever reason (financial etc.)sell these items and most if not all would rather that you did not mention that they have been selling all those thoughtful gifts they have been recieving from the team for doing a good job on the phones or whatever...... could this person be classified as a source who would rather not be mentioned? This happens all the time with hundreds of items, especially employees who work or serve the players directly. Bottom line is if item "A" and item "B" are identical unless you take it off the players back right after the game, you are still putting stock in a piece of paper no matter who it's from.....Steiner included!!

George

[RobSteinmetz]

Rudy,

I agree that in some cases provenance can shorten the leap of faith, however, I'm sure you'll join me in cautioning collectors against relying completely on team or player provenance when purchasing game used memorabilia. We've all seen the errors, and with retired players now being paid to write LOA's on equipment they haven't seen in 30 or more years (a practice that I consider to be manufactured provenance), I think relying on said provenance could be a disasterous move.

George, good observations on the fact that jerseys can be sourced from individuals other than those employed by MLB teams.

[allstarsplus]

Rob is so correct with his quote My biggest challenge is not selling merchandise, it's buying legitimate merchandise. I will take it one step further that it is buying legitimate significant items such as game used items that are really show use and items that can be photomatched. It is more competitive than ever because collectors can now go direct to teams, Steiner, eBay and 1,000 other dealers but the true differentiator is buying the best stuff which takes the extra level of hard work.

With my company, we have tried to buy significant items from impact players and from the big games and milestone events. The way to get those is through the players or the teams or sometimes through those great "sources". There is a real challenge getting a legitimate ball or base or jersey or bat from the player's 1st HR game or 1st MLB game or 2131st consecutive game, etc. Most of the players want their items, but some don't and some can't even get them when in a visitor's ballpark.

This 2006 season, I was trying to put together the Alfonso Soriano 40-40-40 trifecta of balls and bases from his 40 HR, 40 SB and 40 doubles game. The challenge was getting it done as you figured he was going to get to each milestone but where was each going to occur hence the challenge. It came down to hard work and using sources as all 3 happened respectively in Philadelphia, Washington, and NY. The 40th steal almost happened in Arizona which got ruled "defensive indifference" and not counted as a steal, but none the less was part of the puzzle. I got all 3 plus other significant parts of that great season.

Great sources are a key and I think like Rob, our clientele feels comfortable in the items. The great thing is that usually you can get these items with the MLB #'d holograms or Team letters or in the case of Steiner a nice LOA and hologram.

I have in my database as a source one team President and a team owner's son. When I need an item, I pay for it. I never like to ask for anything for free since there may be a chance I will resell it. If I get it for free I consider a gift and it goes into my personal collection.

Rudy, on these special ops missions in the back alley receiving goods is hard to imagine these days as most venues have cameras and security. I think many sellers paint these "back door" transactions out of pure fantasy to give their story some added credibility. As tough as it is to get a clubhouse job, most would be out of their mind to risk it. Look at that Fefel situation in Baltimore---he eventually got caught!

As Eric said, a team source doesn't make it a legit item. My favorite story one clubhouse guy shared with me was that a dealer (who he named) approached him and wanted to pay him $50 to $75 for some star bats. He obliged and took his money and delivered unused bats which were typically rejected bats. That team where the clubhouse guy worked had a team store where they sold player bats with MLB holograms for the same star players with usually good use at $200 to $300. I will be sarcastic here---great team source!!!

Source or no source. That's the difference. You usually get what you pay for!!!!

[JETEFAN]

Rob is so correct with his quote My biggest challenge is not selling merchandise, it's buying legitimate merchandise. I will take it one step further that it is buying legitimate significant items such as game used items that are really show use and items that can be photomatched. It is more competitive than ever because collectors can now go direct to teams, Steiner, eBay and 1,000 other dealers but the true differentiator is buying the best stuff which takes the extra level of hard work.

With my company, we have tried to buy significant items from impact players and from the big games and milestone events. The way to get those is through the players or the teams or sometimes through those great "sources". There is a real challenge getting a legitimate ball or base or jersey or bat from the player's 1st HR game or 1st MLB game or 2131st consecutive game, etc. Most of the players want their items, but some don't and some can't even get them when in a visitor's ballpark.

This 2006 season, I was trying to put together the Alfonso Soriano 40-40-40 trifecta of balls and bases from his 40 HR, 40 SB and 40 doubles game. The challenge was getting it done as you figured he was going to get to each milestone but where was each going to occur hence the challenge. It came down to hard work and using sources as all 3 happened respectively in Philadelphia, Washington, and NY. The 40th steal almost happened in Arizona which got ruled "defensive indifference" and not counted as a steal, but none the less was part of the puzzle. I got all 3 plus other significant parts of that great season.

Great sources are a key and I think like Rob, our clientele feels comfortable in the items. The great thing is that usually you can get these items with the MLB #'d holograms or Team letters or in the case of Steiner a nice LOA and hologram.

I have in my database as a source one team President and a team owner's son. When I need an item, I pay for it. I never like to ask for anything for free since there may be a chance I will resell it. If I get it for free I consider a gift and it goes into my personal collection.

Rudy, on these special ops missions in the back alley receiving goods is hard to imagine these days as most venues have cameras and security. I think many sellers paint these "back door" transactions out of pure fantasy to give their story some added credibility. As tough as it is to get a clubhouse job, most would be out of their mind to risk it. Look at that Fefel situation in Baltimore---he eventually got caught!

As Eric said, a team source doesn't make it a legit item. My favorite story one clubhouse guy shared with me was that a dealer (who he named) approached him and wanted to pay him $50 to $75 for some star bats. He obliged and took his money and delivered unused bats which were typically rejected bats. That team where the clubhouse guy worked had a team store where they sold player bats with MLB holograms for the same star players with usually good use at $200 to $300. I will be sarcastic here---great team source!!!

Source or no source. That's the difference. You usually get what you pay for!!!!

Andrew,
Does your company have a website with what you offer for sale?
George

[allstarsplus]

Andrew,
Does your company have a website with what you offer for sale?
George
George - Our main website is www.AllstarsPlus.com (http://www.AllstarsPlus.com) I must apologize in advance that we are probably years behind in getting the website to where it should be. We have 2 game used sections. One section nicely photographed with descriptions. The other section is newer acquisitions which come and go quick so it has been more difficult to keep up with.

I know you collect Yankees and we have tons of Yankee items which I can send you a list.

Thanks. Andrew
Info@AllstarsPlus.com or for Nationals items only GameUsed@Nationals.net

[kingjammy24]

george: good point regarding that "team sources" may sometimes include staff who've legitimately been gifted with items that they later choose to sell.

rob: i think either extreme is unwise; placing your entire faith in provenance is unwise as is placing no importance on provenance. i completely agree that provenance can, at times, be misleading and would advise to never base a purchase solely and entirely on it. i also understand that, at this point, you feel supremely confident in your ability to discern good from bad and as such, provenance doesn't play a huge role in your decision-making. however, let me offer some reasoning why i believe that provenance will become increasingly important in the future and even those with 20 yrs of experience would be served to place some faith in it.
i don't believe we've seen decent forgeries as of yet. i believe that most of us have only seen relatively sloppy work that's come from uneducated, unskilled forgers. really shoddy work. how stupid does one have to be, for example, to create a peyton manning jersey with sleeves that he never wore? it's the work of someone who's completely braindead. we've learnt to discern legit pieces from sloppy pieces, not from breathtaking forgeries. personally, while i may feel confident about my abilities in general when placed against the current state of forgers, i recognize that i'm not exactly going up against all-stars here. i have little doubt that if this hobby were to see the level of forgers that have plied their trade in high-end paintings or currency, for example, that i would be relatively helpless. i'm fairly certain of this because i feel that, if given the right materials, i could construct forgeries that would fool anyone. perfect, flawless forgeries without so much as a single ghost stitch. now if i can do that and i don't believe myself to be supremely talented in that area, then i can only imagine what a real forger could do.
for further proof of the crude level of forgery in this hobby, take a look at what most of the professional authenticators have as their weapons - guides, primers, photographs. yet with these crude tools, most of us manage to discern the fakes. how good are the fakes if they can be discerned with such primitive tools? the most authoritative bat authenticators don't even have a forensic way of dating the wood in a bat. how can you examine a ruth bat when you have no way of knowing how old the wood is? length, weight, finish and markings? it's relatively primitive compared to what examiners in other disciplines have to help them discern a forgery. if the forgers of high-end paintings manage to execute such perfect work that it requires their authenticators to use carbon dating, various types of x-rays, isotope analysis, infrared analysis, wavelet decompostion, etc. then i have to think that a 2001 pujols would be childs play for someone of their skill level. i believe it's only a matter of time before individuals with similar skill levels begin plying their trade in this hobby and we start seeing some staggeringly impressive forgeries. (after all, if i could do it, i'm sure there are others). henderson's guide won't be of much help with those and until mears becomes certified in forensic examination, they'll be pretty useless too. this is where provenance will become very important. when a skilled forger has made a perfect piece, what else can you do? the provenance may be the only thing left to help you make the right decision. i suspect that this is why many collectors seem to increasingly be willing to pay premiums for pieces with solid paper trails.

here's an interesting tale regarding the complex nature of forgery:
(a kouros is a greek statue of a male). "The Getty Kouros was offered, along with seven other pieces, to The J. Paul Getty Museum in Malibu, California in the spring of 1983. For the next twelve years art historians, conservators, and archeologists studied the Kouros, scientific tests were performed and showed that the surface could not have been created artificially. However, when several of the other pieces offered with the Kouros, were shown to be forgeries, its authenticity was again questioned. In May of 1992, the Kouros was displayed in Athens, Greece, at an international conference, called to determine its authenticity. The conference failed to solve the problem; while most art historians and archeologists denounced it, the scientists present believed the statue to be authentic. To this day, the Getty Kouros' authenticity remains a mystery and the statue is displayed with the date: "Greek, 530 B.C. or modern forgery". i'm sure someone there would've killed for some provenance. ;)

andrew: "I think many sellers paint these "back door" transactions out of pure fantasy to give their story some added credibility."

completely agreed.

rudy.

[allstarsplus]

Rudy - I look forward daily to reading your Posts. You take a lot of time and obviously give much thought to each Post.

I had a collector bring me a bunch of jerseys and bats he wanted to sell. I looked through the items and it didn't take me long to come to a conclusion that none of the items had any likelihood that they were game used. All the items were bought from the same dealer too. This person put a lot of faith in this one dealer and was taken for a ride for a lot of money.

My challenge was how do I tell this person that I wouldn't pay anything for the items without offending him. I tried to let him down easy without being confrontational and said I wasn't interested in these players so I would pass on the items. He then got up in my face about thanks for wasting his time. Uh oh....so then I told him the truth. I am not buying your items because none were real. He got angry and called me some nasty words.

If there is a moral to this it would be that some people don't want to hear your opinions when it is not what they want to hear. They put so much faith in some of their sources or dealers and have opened themselves up sometimes for huge financial and emotional letdowns. I had this same discussion a while back with John Taube who authenticates bats and has had to tell people that their items are not what they thought they were.

I think that sometimes a collector will pay huge money on the MLB.com or NFL.com because they want to be absolutely sure it is real.

You then have the 2 extremes of real. Perceived real and actually real.

Andrew