Bat grading

[yanks12025]

I thought people who "like" bat grading would want to see this. Notice how it jumped up 1.5 in grade. lol

http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/item.cgi?show_item=0000354108

http://catalog.greyflannelauctions.com/Circa-1924-Freddie-Lindstrom-NY-Giants-Rookie-Era--LOT31448.aspx

[Roady]

Clerical error? :rolleyes:

[Juan Gris]

That is definitely the same bat but I don't see a picture of the PSA/DNA LOA in the Grey Flannel link. Could the 8.5 grade be a typo in the listing? :confused:

[Nnunnari]

Hah.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

I emailed both John Taube and the Grey Flannel general inquiries email address about how the grade changed. If either writes back to me, I'll share the response. :)

[yanks12025]

Grey flannel told me they will look into it and get back to me. Nothing yet from JT.

[Hoosier39]

Maybe an email could've been sent to JT before a new thread was made? Maybe your questions would be answered then and not needing to bring up names in a public thread?

[yanks12025]

Oh so sorry Terry. I swear I thought this forum was to DISCUSS sports items. I guess this bat doesn't fall under discussion of sports items.


And I did say in my last post I had yet to hear back from john(and it's not bringing a name in a forum considering he does this type of work/expert, so obviously people will question some items because no body is perfect).

And I'm sure it was given a new letter because details on the dating of the label, weight have changed in the listing compared to the letter from 2007.

[Hoosier39]

Oh so sorry Terry. I swear I thought this forum was to DISCUSS sports items. I guess this bat doesn't fall under discussion of sports items.


And I did say in my last post I had yet to hear back from john(and it's not bringing a name in a forum considering he does this type of work/expert, so obviously people will question some items because no body is perfect).

And I'm sure it was given a new letter because details on the dating of the label, weight have changed in the listing compared to the letter from 2007.

Discuss sports items, sure. Throwing someone's reputation out there, something they do for a living, not exactly.

It would've made more sense to email him your findings first, see what he has to say, and if you think it's bogus, let's "discuss". Maybe it was an honest mistake?

I guess I just don't understand it. If you want an answer, why don't you go to the source first? The people JT gives FREE advice to understand that.

[yanks12025]

Discuss sports items, sure. Throwing someone's reputation out there, something they do for a living, not exactly.

It would've made more sense to email him your findings first, see what he has to say, and if you think it's bogus, let's "discuss". Maybe it was an honest mistake?

I guess I just don't understand it. If you want an answer, why don't you go to the source first? The people JT gives FREE advice to understand that.

Where did I throw his reputation out there? I never said he's bad at what he does or anything. I'm just showing the collecting community that this specific bat went from a PSA 7 to a PSA 8.5.

[Hoosier39]

Where did I throw his reputation out there? I never said he's bad at what he does or anything. I'm just showing the collecting community that this specific bat went from a PSA 7 to a PSA 8.5.

You made a thread on a different forum yesterday of "Really! Bat grading is stupid".

If one of your customers had an issue/problem with your services, wouldn't you like it if they came to you directly instead of going behind your back and going straight to your boss? Or posting their issues on a public forum with your name?

Why do you think Goldin doesn't like it when people question his auction items on here? That would be because you can email him directly and he fixes or at least answers the question within 10 minutes.

[yanks12025]

It's called a FORUM. I posted a topic, so people can see and DISCUSS the topic. And I made that other thread, because there's bat collectors there also.

I'm done arguing with you.

[Hoosier39]

I'm not arguing with anyone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Think before you speak.

In my opinion, you made this thread(and the other) to bash on the guys who grade bats.

I'll go slower this time around: If you have a problem or question with an item that you aren't sure about, contact the person selling it. Or in this case, just contact JT and ask him for an explanation on the 2 LOA's. The guy is pretty easy to get a hold of and gives FREE advice all the time. I think we can all agree he has helped all of us out to some capacity. The guy deserves to at least have an email sent to him before any public threads are made attempting to bash what he does. That's not fair for one thing, and I'm pretty sure it's forum rules too.

Ok, now think about that for a second and let me know if you have any questions.

[yanks12025]

I'm not arguing with anyone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Think before you speak.

In my opinion, you made this thread(and the other) to bash on the guys who grade bats.

I'll go slower this time around: If you have a problem or question with an item that you aren't sure about, contact the person selling it. Or in this case, just contact JT and ask him for an explanation on the 2 LOA's. The guy is pretty easy to get a hold of and gives FREE advice all the time. I think we can all agree he has helped all of us out to some capacity. The guy deserves to at least have an email sent to him before any public threads are made attempting to bash what he does. That's not fair for one thing, and I'm pretty sure it's forum rules too.


Ok, now think about that for a second and let me know if you have any questions.


Have you read my posts? I said I did contact Taube and have not heard back from him. I even contacted him the other day about something else and heard nothing back. So stop saying I haven't reached out to him, when I have.

And again I'm not BASHING him. Please learn to read!

[yanks12025]

Also I'm not the only person who thinks bat grading is stupid or any grading in general. That someone is willing to pay thousands more for a PSA 10 or a A10, but you can buy a bat just like that without a grade or even a PSA/A 8-9 for lots less.

[Hoosier39]

Oh I agree completely, bat grading is very overrated. That's not really the point. Why don't you wait for a personal response from JT and go from there? You think with his schedule he'll be able to answer this in 30 minutes? Give it some time, let the guy respond and see if there's a real issue to begin with.

And I am so so sorry I don't know how to read, but I do understand how to go about my business. Nothing really more to say here. You aren't understanding even when I spelled it out for you. Do whatever you feel you need to do but don't expect much help from. JT in the future. If I was him, I would ignore you altogether.

[yanks12025]

Oh I agree completely, bat grading is very overrated. That's not really the point. Why don't you wait for a personal response from JT and go from there? You think with his schedule he'll be able to answer this in 30 minutes? Give it some time, let the guy respond and see if there's a real issue to begin with.

And I am so so sorry I don't know how to read, but I do understand how to go about my business. Nothing really more to say here. You aren't understanding even when I spelled it out for you. Do whatever you feel you need to do but don't expect much help from. JT in the future. If I was him, I would ignore you altogether.

Sure sounds like you guys are big buddies.

[yanks12025]

And as I said I'm not bashing john at all. He is very good at what he does. The reason for the post was about bat grading in general because people here have discussed it in the past.

[Hoosier39]

And as I said I'm not bashing john at all. He is very good at what he does. The reason for the post was about bat grading in general because people here have discussed it in the past.

I wouldn't say I'm "buddies" with him but I do respect he and his work. He's helped a lot of people out for FREE and has asked for nothing in return. I'm guessing you've never received that from him before.

The post was made(along with the other one) because of two different LOA's on the same bat. Again, for the 10th time, email JT and wait for a response. I guess I just don't see why you don't understand that. You're making nothing into an issue. There's no issue, yet, which means this thread isn't really necessary quite yet. You aren't coming out "bashing" anyone, but this thread speaks volume. For you, and unfortunately for JT.

Look, I get it. Same bat, 2 different LOA's, blah blah blah. Just email JT and he will either correct it or explain it. End of story. This isn't difficult, I promise.

[KGoldin]

Apparently John HAS been replying to emails on the subject
I received a reply from him today on this topic, and it appears I am the THIRD person he has replied to on the subject.
I for one APPRECIATE the fact, that presented with evidence, he is willing to re evaluate an item. It is a trait that serves people well in business....realizing you may NOT be perfect the first time. IMO not something to be criticized.

Ken,

I fielded a question this morning and offered the following. Bat should have been graded higher to begin with.

Dane,
Simply speaking I graded the bat incorrectly the first time I examined it. Under
our grading criteria we give allowances for condition for bats that are returned
to Louisville Slugger. On many of these bats a chipped knob or other condition
issues are the result of handling once they were returned.

The Lindstrom bat bears his name, rather clearly and as well as the month and
day of the return date. The 1.5 point deduction I believe is the correct
deduction not the original 3 points.

If I get bashed on GUU I understand. That's what happens when mistakes are made.

JT

Also

Duane,

As a follow-up to my email this morning here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to side written bats and allowances for condition.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7100&lotNo=80003

John

[yanks12025]

Apparently John HAS been replying to emails on the subject
I received a reply from him today on this topic, and it appears I am the THIRD person he has replied to on the subject.
I for one APPRECIATE the fact, that presented with evidence, he is willing to re evaluate an item. It is a trait that serves people well in business....realizing you may NOT be perfect the first time. IMO not something to be criticized.

Ken,

I fielded a question this morning and offered the following. Bat should have been graded higher to begin with.

Dane,
Simply speaking I graded the bat incorrectly the first time I examined it. Under
our grading criteria we give allowances for condition for bats that are returned
to Louisville Slugger. On many of these bats a chipped knob or other condition
issues are the result of handling once they were returned.

The Lindstrom bat bears his name, rather clearly and as well as the month and
day of the return date. The 1.5 point deduction I believe is the correct
deduction not the original 3 points.

If I get bashed on GUU I understand. That's what happens when mistakes are made.

JT

Also

Duane,

As a follow-up to my email this morning here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to side written bats and allowances for condition.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7100&lotNo=80003

John


Thank you for posting that ken. He had not wrote back to the email I sent him, so good to see a response.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Dane,
Simply speaking I graded the bat incorrectly the first time I examined it. Under
our grading criteria we give allowances for condition for bats that are returned
to Louisville Slugger. On many of these bats a chipped knob or other condition
issues are the result of handling once they were returned.

The Lindstrom bat bears his name, rather clearly and as well as the month and
day of the return date. The 1.5 point deduction I believe is the correct
deduction not the original 3 points.

If I get bashed on GUU I understand. That's what happens when mistakes are made.

JT

Also

Duane,

As a follow-up to my email this morning here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when it comes to side written bats and allowances for condition.

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7100&lotNo=80003

John

Those are the two emails I received this morning at some point. :) I was about to post them, but see that Ken beat me to it. I appreciate John's candor in his response and for his clarity of explanation about why the bat grade changed. On top of everything else, it taught me something I wasn't entirely aware of: Chipped knobs knock off A LOT on the grade. :D

[Nnunnari]

Mistakes are made, people are human-even further reason why bat grading should not be left to a single person. It should be a team evaluation. The single most asinine thing about our hobby.

On a side note, Taube's grading scale/criteria has clearly changed since '06-'07, yet no formal announcement was ever made. Old letters should have to be re-submitted and re-evaluated for free. It simply is not fair or consistent. Please start ignoring old letters.

[yanks12025]

Mistakes are made, people are human-even further reason why bat grading should not be left to a single person. It should be a team evaluation. The single most asinine thing about our hobby.

On a side note, Taube's grading scale/criteria has clearly changed since '06-'07, yet no formal announcement was ever made. Old letters should have to be re-submitted and re-evaluated for free. It simply is not fair or consistent. Please start ignoring old letters.

Just sucks for people who had items graded back then and received lower grades, so in return their bats might not have sold for as much. Now they get regraded and will bring in higher prices.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

Nick has been quite vocal in the past about this. He feels the grading criteria has gotten looser with time, not stricter. He's saying that most items graded in the past would grade lower today, not higher. The specific reason for the jump in grade on this item is how wear/damage is viewed on vault items. Since it's possible that the damage occurred while in the possession of the bat manufacturer, the grade gets a bump up. At least, that's what I understand at this point.

So, the 7 -> 8.5 is a rare occurrence specifically due to how vault marked bats are graded. For typical gamers, Nick's argument is that as PSA has reviewed more bats, their grading criteria has tightened up. Personally, looking at how PCGS grading standards for coins have changed with time, I'd be far more inclined to believe the "looser" grading theory than the "tighter" grading theory, but either way, the market will correct itself. If people start finding that earlier graded bats had higher grades, the demand for recently graded bats will increase. I don't see a need to regraded all the bats that were ever submitted prior to a certain date. They would merely need to state that bats should be downgraded. The exception being GU 10 bats, which might actually be a GU 10 under current standards, as well. Those bats could be (at owner's option) be resubmitted for a current grade.

Again, the above the regrades would be entirely based upon Nick's opinion of grading changing. I don't agree with him about standards changing, but assuming they did, the above would be my interpretation of how the market would correct itself.


Just sucks for people who had items graded back then and received lower grades, so in return their bats might not have sold for as much. Now they get regraded and will bring in higher prices.


Mistakes are made, people are human-even further reason why bat grading should not be left to a single person. It should be a team evaluation. The single most asinine thing about our hobby.

On a side note, Taube's grading scale/criteria has clearly changed since '06-'07, yet no formal announcement was ever made. Old letters should have to be re-submitted and re-evaluated for free. It simply is not fair or consistent. Please start ignoring old letters.

[Roady]

I just believe bat grading is retarded.

Follow the money.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

I just believe bat grading is retarded.

Follow the money.

That's terrific, Roady. Don't buy graded bats. They're not for you.

Similar to how people didn't really grade sports cards until the mid-70s, I think bat grading will receive resistance in the beginning, but will eventually become standardized enough to be a "normal" process. The issue, however, will always be provenance v usage. Although it might complicate things, maybe the grading authorities need to develop a scoring strata that clearly states how many points are for provenance, how many are for use characteristics and how many are for overall use.

A system could be developed to the effect of:

Provenance: 1-10, with 10 being the player documenting use of the bat, 9 being a league or team official, 8 being a fellow player (currently viewed as first-person, even though it probably shouldn't), 6 being from a batboy or family member, 0 for any other form of provenance. Letters from known collections would receive no provenance points, but the ancillary provenance would be noted on the grading certificate.

Player characteristics: 1-10, with 10 being a photo or video matched bat, 9 being a bat with standard player characteristics, 8 being a bat with mostly standard (tape wraps removed or similar changes), 6 being a bat that lacks characteristics (missing number on the knob, if player did that, light or heavy pine tar, if player was known to have the other) but can be matched to the team or player order, 3 being a bat clearly used by one player but with the name of another player or index bat.

Overall usage (most subjective, but only applicable to bats scoring 6 or higher on player characteristics): 1-3, 3 being heavy, 2 being medium, 1 being light.

Provenance and player characteristics would be combined to create a net score, with usage and cracks/repairs/damage being noted as a separate category not factoring into the final grade.

This would allow individual collectors to collect what they want and possibly have a more honest/appropriate understanding of what they're purchasing in a catalog, auction or from photographs.

[Roady]

No, it is not like a baseball card.

Baseball cards are graded against the same card in it's pristine unused condition. You have 4 corners, the edge, the surface, etc...A perfect unused example is used as the template.

If bats were like cards we would all be wanting unused pristine bats just out of the factory.

[danesei@yahoo.com]

No, it is not like a baseball card.

Baseball cards are graded against the same card in it's pristine unused condition. You have 4 corners, the edge, the surface, etc...A perfect unused example is used as the template.

If bats were like cards we would all be wanting unused pristine bats just out of the factory.

Read and reread what I wrote. I never said bats were like baseball cards. I said perception of grading will change, similar to how it did with sportscards, as things standardize.

Prior to BGS introducing the four categories of grading for sportscards, there were multiple standards that existed, including a company that maintained six criteria in determining the final grade. Anyway, the point is that prior to the existence of the standards, trading cards was about active participation related to something you loved. You traded cards for players you liked, regardless of condition. Kids put cards in their bicycle spokes to make cool sounds, since there was no other use for cards of players you hated or simply didn't know.

In a similar vein, game used bats were sometimes used as actual bats by colleges or community teams, or, in some extreme cases, they would be used as firewood to clear up space in the basement. Then people began to collect them or use them as displays on their mantle or in their office. Realizing that the internet, coupled with new collectors, would increase the potential marketplace for game used items, authenticators started offering services to verify usage. This has now evolved into the existence of a grading system.

Again, I see no problem with the existence of a grading system. In fact, I don't think Nick does, either. Nick's issue is that the grading system allegedly favors earlier graded bats over more recently graded ones. My issue is that the system itself hasn't been standardized enough that multiple companies or individuals are able to grade bats and agree on the grade to be issued. That's why I suggested a multi-category system.

However, even if I disagree with the particular system or categorization of grades, I think the idea of grading game used bats is a good one. Although it seems subjective at times, the existence of a grading system actually eliminates far more subjectivity than it introduces. By having a system of standards (whether we agree with the chosen standards is another issue), the grading of bats allows individuals to do price comparison on a leveled (though not completely equal) competitive surface.

Personally, I'd prefer an environment with only one acknowledged grader to one with hundreds or thousands of graders who use the old "coin dealer" grading system of "buy XF/AU" and "sell BU/GU."

Having a grading system in place eliminates some of that. If you disagree with bat grading, you can always just buy your bats ungraded and sell them ungraded, as well. The marketplace is driven by supply and demand, whether we like it or not. If grading is accepted more than not, it will stick around, even if we try to ignore it. If grading is rejected more than not, the marketplace will show that, as well, by the presence of less and less bats being submitted for grading and less graded bats entering the marketplace.

[Roady]

I see what you are saying but still don't see the need for it.