Ripken Jersey American Mem.

[JETEFAN]

Can someone with knowledge of Orioles jersey's help me with a question? Shouldn't this Ripken 1996 Orioles jersey have piping around the sleeves?

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=32954



Thanks George

[kingjammy24]

george,

yes, it ought to have piping around the sleeves.

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4746/oriolestg6.jpg

either the bidders know something i don't or there are a group of people prepared to spend over $2k without so much as even bothering to check a single orioles photo from 1996.

anyway george, there's something (other than the lack of piping) that strikes me as a little odd about this jersey. the description states "Showing remarkable wear, this road gray knit appears to have been worn extensively during that ’96 season". the manufacturer's tag seems to show wear in the form of blue smudges/threads coming loose. despite it showing so much wear that threads have been cut loose, the tag itself shows very little puckering. similarly, the year tag shows a good deal of wear in the form of substantial fading and wrinkling. however, the "8" written in marker on the tag hasn't faded at all. lastly, despite a manufacturer's tag with loose threads and a substantially worn year tag, the paper flag tags are completely crisp with no curling at all. how does one portion of the tagging show substantial wear yet another portion is crisp?

anyway, congrats to lou on another gem.

rudy.

[JETEFAN]

george,

yes, it ought to have piping around the sleeves.

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/4746/oriolestg6.jpg

either the bidders know something i don't or there are a group of people prepared to spend over $2k without so much as even bothering to check a single orioles photo from 1996.

anyway george, there's something (other than the lack of piping) that strikes me as a little odd about this jersey. the description states "Showing remarkable wear, this road gray knit appears to have been worn extensively during that ’96 season". the manufacturer's tag seems to show wear in the form of blue smudges/threads coming loose. despite it showing so much wear that threads have been cut loose, the tag itself shows very little puckering. similarly, the year tag shows a good deal of wear in the form of substantial fading and wrinkling. however, the "8" written in marker on the tag hasn't faded at all. lastly, despite a manufacturer's tag with loose threads and a substantially worn year tag, the paper flag tags are completely crisp with no curling at all. how does one portion of the tagging show substantial wear yet another portion is crisp?

anyway, congrats to lou on another gem.

rudy.

Thanks for the info Rudy !!

[bigtime59]

The obvious and easy to spot flaw on this jersey is the lack of sleeve piping. The not so obvious and easy to spot flaw is that this is a 1995 jersey, bobo'd to be a 1996. (Guess there were no 1995 year tags lying around for this one!) I've attached two photos of the middle "o": one from a 1995 jersey, one from a 1996. The '95 is smooth, and cleanly cut. The '96 looks like it was done by an arthritic in the dark. Note how crude it is compared to the '95. Also, the Orioles in 1996, and 1996 ONLY, used NYLON home and road jerseys. The alternates, however were polyester.
Cal Ripken's name is like crack to uninformed collectors and jersey fakers. It's only going to get worse when he goes into the Hall of Fame next year.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

[Utopian2630]

At least the lucky winner can rest easily knowing that the jersey comes with 'rock solid provinence' :)

[lund6771]

what a joke

[ripkengamers]

The obvious and easy to spot flaw on this jersey is the lack of sleeve piping. The not so obvious and easy to spot flaw is that this is a 1995 jersey, bobo'd to be a 1996. (Guess there were no 1995 year tags lying around for this one!) I've attached two photos of the middle "o": one from a 1995 jersey, one from a 1996. The '95 is smooth, and cleanly cut. The '96 looks like it was done by an arthritic in the dark. Note how crude it is compared to the '95. Also, the Orioles in 1996, and 1996 ONLY, used NYLON home and road jerseys. The alternates, however were polyester.
Cal Ripken's name is like crack to uninformed collectors and jersey fakers. It's only going to get worse when he goes into the Hall of Fame next year.

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com


Mark,
I concur with you on this one. Here's a photo of my '96 alternate jersey with the funky stitching on the "O" as you described.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to let everyone know about a conversation I had with Victor Moreno of American Memorabilia this past weekend. Among other things, Victor and I spoke about the GUU site and what we are trying to do to help the collecting community. Victor seemed genuinely appreciative of our goals but also cautioned that our efforts would be much better received as long as we are careful not to do so in a confrontational manner. I assured him that this was our intention (as our rules make clear) and that more and more people are looking to us to help them understand more about game used items.

Toward the latter part of the conversation, I mentioned this thread in regard to the Ripken jersey in their recently completed auction. He said he had a huge Ripken collector in his database that he would check with to see if, among other things, the piping issue was indeed a cause for concern. After checking with his contact, Victor called me back to say his contact verified that the piping was present in all the '96 Oriole jerseys the collector had...including a number of commons.

As such, Victor has decided not to execute the sale of the jersey unless further information can be produced to verify its authenticity. That is, unless more information is provided to show it is game used, AMI will not execute the sale to high bidder.

The result of the conversation led be to think the following:

1) I feel as though AMI is doing the right thing is this instance and I want to personally thank Victor for listening to the people on this thread;
2) Companies like AMI will be much more open to our input if we follow the rules we have established for the forum;
3) This site is helping the collecting community more and more each day.

I really want to thank everyone who participated on this thread to help provide useful information regarding this item. I also once again want to thank Victor Moreno for his responsiveness to the comments on this forum. I also hope that, by following the forum rules, we will continue to be influential in helping the collecting community make more informed decisions about items in the marketplace.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[hblakewolf]

Chris-
Did you happen to ask Vic why he never addressed the issue of Col James A. Rast, i.e., the fake individual who was defending and posting from AMI? If this was not discussed, is it possible for Vic to actually provide insight and informaiton as to why his company would do this?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

Chris, I too appreciate that Victor has decided to not go through with the sale of the Ripken after the people on the forum showed the problems which slipped past the authenticator.

Glad people are here to check these things. Nice going.

If you talk to Victor again I actually think it would be helpful to know why a person from American Memorabilia made up a user name- )a military person no less) to come on here to say great things about American Memorabilia and bash what we're doing here.

We never did get an explanation.

Don't want to speak for others, but ever since that happened I have been waiting for someone to step up and explain it to clear the air. At least in my mind, it's not going to go away until someone does so.

Thanks
Eric
ecky3@aol.com

[kingjammy24]

chris,

while i agree with the rules of the forum, there's something that strikes me as one-sided about your post.

improving the hobby undeniably and necessarily involves improving the auction houses. these improvements aren't a one-way street with collectors bearing sole responsibility. auction houses and dealers not only bear significant responsibility in helping to improve the hobby but i believe they've got the lion's share of work to do.

i agree that being unjustifiably confrontational is a poor approach in dealing with these issues. however, in this specific case, does AMI/victor seriously feel that they haven't warranted such an attitude from the collecting community? this forum (and the old one) are littered with collectors saying they emailed AMI with issues and never heard back. there are dozens of posts describing many of AMI's replies as "lou says it's good". if AMI genuinely wants a less confrontational relationship with collectors, then perhaps the ball is in their court to change their behavior. perhaps they can start by answering emails and by not issuing rubbish replies. a phenominal step forward would be for them to stop using lampson all together. (i personally believe the man is a cancer in the hobby, second only to brad wells.)
i trust that while listening to victor speak of what we can do to help the hobby you also informed of what he can do?

"1) I feel as though AMI is doing the right thing is this instance and I want to personally thank Victor for listening to the people on this thread"

perhaps i hold people to higher standards but the ripken was irrefutably bad and had victor chosen to run it he'd be negligent at best and committing fraud at worst. by removing it, he helped himself immensely.

"2) Companies like AMI will be much more open to our input if we follow the rules we have established for the forum;"

this part that really gets me. chris, your statement almost seems to imply that we should be endevoring to have the auction houses listen to us when the reality is that it should be the opposite. they have far more to gain from us than we have to gain from them. personally, i couldn't care less if they're open to my input. it's no skin off my back if they want to run bad items. it's THEM who needs my input. it's me who's volunteering my time, expertise, and effort to help keep their auctions and reputation clean and save their hides from legal troubles. it serves and behooves their business interests to be open to my input. whether they run a bad item or choose not to listen to me has absolutely no consequence for me. they, on the other hand, have everything to gain from listening to my input. if anything, they should be asking how they can best solicit my input. what sorts of chocolates i like and what my email address is to send their umpteen thank yous. if i ran a car dealership, for example, and a mechanic came onto my lot and correctly informed me that one of my cars has serious mechanical woes and he did it all for free, the first thing i'm doing is sending him a gift certificate. it's insane to think "he needs to make me open to his input". he needs to do nothing of the sort. my business interests FORCE me to be open to his input. all he needs to do is tell me his favorite restaurant.

whenever i need someone's help, i realize that they're the one holding the cards. as the person who needs help, i'm the one that needs to acquiesce to them as i'm depending on them. i'm also extremely appreciative every time someone takes their time and effort to help me. imagine if mike specht or jim caravello took their time to save me from making a bad bat purchase and i told them "you guys need to be more polite if you want me to listen to you". the nerve of it! what do they care if i listen to them? i'm the one who's benefitting from their free assistance.

the thought that we're doing this all for free is the real kicker. where's my cut of the authentication fee because their boy lampson screwed up again? lampson authenticates it incorrectly, someone here fixes it, and lampson collects the fee? on top of it all, the auction house is then thanked? thanks for letting us do the work you paid lampson to do!
victor received a free authentication courtesy of the members of this Forum. it wasn't the first time. thanks for allowing us to help you for free! thanks for not knowingly running a bad item! how about a "thanks Forum members for saving me when lampson screwed up". when ami ran that 70's dennis martinez, the description kept changing according to the research we were producing. anyone get a thank you?

like i said, i personally couldn't care less whether any auction house is "open to my input". the smart ones realize it benefits them greatly to do so. the polite ones also manage to recognize when i'm owed a thank you.

rudy.

[lund6771]

I think that there are deinitley some reputable auctions houses out there...when I say reputable I believe that it is not just if "it's real" or not, but mostly because their customer service...

I think that it's excellent that some of them pull items after receiving e-mails from this site...the response from them on this site shows why they have been in business for so long...

In Eric's last post I'm not sure if "slipping by the authenticator" should be a loose phrase...In the auctions that we see it should be that 99% of the items are the real deal, not the other way around...

it sure seems that this site is a hell of a lot better at authenticating than the "experts" out there...

[lund6771]

Amen Brother...

[CollectGU]

chris,

i agree that being unjustifiably confrontational is a poor approach in dealing with these issues. however, in this specific case, does AMI/victor seriously feel that they haven't warranted such an attitude from the collecting community? this forum (and the old one) are littered with collectors saying they emailed AMI with issues and never heard back. there are dozens of posts describing many of AMI's replies as "lou says it's good". if AMI genuinely wants a less confrontational relationship with collectors, then perhaps the ball is in their court to change their behavior. perhaps they can start by answering emails and by not issuing rubbish replies.
rudy.

Rudy,

I believe that AMI will not answer e-mails of anyone who questions an item unless they are a registered bidder,because he doesn't know who is contacting him and what their motive is.

Regards,
Dave

[kingjammy24]

hello dave o'brien,

"AMI will not answer e-mails of anyone who questions an item unless they are a registered bidder,because he doesn't know who is contacting him and what their motive is"

i'm not sure what you mean by this? facts are facts. whether my name is curly sue or al jolson has no effect on the validity of my information. if law enforcement agencies, up to the fbi and cia, will gladly accept anonymous information then i don't see why this standard isn't good enough for many in this hobby. it doesn't matter who's contacting you. all that matters is the information being disseminated.

as for their motive, are you alluding to the possibility of someone intentionally spreading incorrect info? if so, it's rubbish because all of it has to be backed up with proof. who cares what my motive is if i have a litany of getty photos? are the photos only good if vic knows my name or has my credit card info? obviously not. proof is proof. it speaks for itself.

in order to register as a bidder, AMI requires my full name, address, and credit card info - number, verification number, and expiry. if the only way victor is going to listen to free, factual info that helps his business is to require someone's full credit card info, then he can go ahead and run his bad ripken. none of it has any benefit for me. why would any sane person hand over their full credit card info solely to provide free assistance to victor? like i said, they can run their bad items, i couldn't care less. at this point, if ami ever wants my opinion, they can pay me. if they'll pay lampson for his shoddy opinions, then they can pay me for my decent ones. how's that for "making them open to my input"?

someone once said that lampson is laughing all the way to the bank and i can't help but think it's true. lampson makes a stupid error, we fix the mistake, he collects the fee and AMI profits and stays out of trouble. who's the sucker in that equation? hint: it's the one doing the work and not collecting the money. they need to realize who's helping who here. i'm really not interested in the least in helping AMI. let them depend entirely on lampson. enjoy the fiasco when things eventually hit the fan. i'm floored by the audacity of trying to help someone else stay out of trouble and in return being told they'll only listen if i hand over my credit card info.

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Rudy,

You don't actually have to give them your credit card, you can give them auction house references instead....

Regards,
Dave

[stkmtimo]

chris,


like i said, i personally couldn't care less whether any auction house is "open to my input". the smart ones realize it benefits them greatly to do so. the polite ones also manage to recognize when i'm owed a thank you.

rudy.

Rudy,

Fantastic post all around! I completely agree with you. If I can ask, has any auction house ever thanked you or sent you anything to thank you for your time and research?

Tim

[ChrisCavalier]

improving the hobby undeniably and necessarily involves improving the auction houses. these improvements aren't a one-way street with collectors bearing sole responsibility. auction houses and dealers not only bear significant responsibility in helping to improve the hobby but i believe they've got the lion's share of work to do.

like i said, i personally couldn't care less whether any auction house is "open to my input". the smart ones realize it benefits them greatly to do so. the polite ones also manage to recognize when i'm owed a thank you.
Hello Rudy,

Thank you for your post. Let me begin by apologizing if my post seemed one-sided. Personally, I was simply looking to provide some perspective regarding the utility I believe this site is providing to the hobby as well as how I believe we can continue to protect collectors in the future (the primary reason this site exists to begin with).

In this instance, the high bidder in the auction is not going to end up paying an excessive amount of money for a jersey that likely was never worn by Ripken. Alternatively, I have seen some sellers in the marketplace claim they are completely in their jurisdiction to sell an item in question because it has been authenticated by a "reputable third party authenticator". As someone who created this site to protect the collector, I am glad to see AMI respond the way they did.

In fact, I think the fact that AMI was willing to listen to the concerns of our members and not fall back on the Lampson certification shows the impact we are having in the market. Am I suggesting that a primary objective of ours should be to endeavor to have the auction houses listen to us. No. However, when they do listen I believe that helps the collecting community. Until we can get every collector to read this site, getting our voice heard by sellers is a powerful way to create change in the market and help the collector. To simply go through the exercise of revealing when suspect items are in the market without preventing collectors from buying them would not achieve the objective I think we are working toward.

At the end of the day, I agree sellers should be thankful for what we are doing in the market. However, I think there are some out there who might argue we are impeding the "gravy train" by informing collectors of items they would be willing to buy if we didn't educate them. Said another way, if enough collectors believe something is real why not let them think so as long as everyone is making money. The problem is, aside from being morally wrong, the one who ultimately stands to lose is the collector.

Fortunately, I believe we are gaining more and more credibility and visibility in the market to the point where it is getting more and more difficult not to hear the voices of those on this site. In the end, I also think the one who will ultimately benefit is the collector. I was simply stating that I believe this trend will continue as members of the collecting community recognize that are intention is to be an advocate of the collector and not a bunch of renegades "acting as more of a personal vendeta [sic] forum than information based" (that is the way an authenticator at MEARS described us on their bulletin boards).

That was the main purpose of my post...to say we are having a bigger impact in the hobby and that we will hopefully see more and more entities respond as AMI did as they see us as people who act responsibly (as was the case in this thread) and not as others in the market try to make us out to be.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[lund6771]

I think the beauty of the site is what it does for the collector...it helps people with genuine interests to enhance their collection...I agree with Rudy 110%...this site does the work to benift the collector/consumer...

some of these auction houses are such a joke...put anything out there that may seem somewhat passable...have an idiot like Lampson write a letter...what do you get?...a collector who gets screwed, an auction house that acts stupid because they are backed by an authenticator, and an aunthenticator who gets away because it's his "opinion"...it's all BS and the collector is the ultimate guy that gets hurt...

If an auction house was smart, they would quickly learrn that they better learn to work with this site...It's pretty obvious that this site is gaining steam and isn't going anywhere...the people here actually take it personal when they see acollector being taken adavantage of...

[bigtime59]

Victor seemed genuinely appreciative of our goals but also cautioned that our efforts would be much better received as long as we are careful not to do so in a confrontational manner.

Well...I feel like I'm being called out here, as I've been known to get a little snarky over just how obvious some of the flaws in these fake Orioles jerseys are...but hey, until the faking fakers can do their jobs a little better, I'm going to continue to serve my observations with a side of sarcasm! :rolleyes:

[ChrisCavalier]

Well...I feel like I'm being called out here, as I've been known to get a little snarky over just how obvious some of the flaws in these fake Orioles jerseys are...but hey, until the faking fakers can do their jobs a little better, I'm going to continue to serve my observations with a side of sarcasm! :rolleyes:
Hello bigtime,

I apologize if you interpreted that comment to be calling you out but the comment actually had nothing to do with anything on this thread. In fact, I think the posts I made emphasized the fact that the forum is more likely to have a strong affect on the hobby when it approaches situations as it did in this case. That is, the issues were identified, the seller was contacted, the seller acted on the information and the collector was not sold an item that is questionable. Once again, my apologies if you thought I was referring to you.

The comment you quoted was more of a general observation based on some previous perceptions of the forum that existed before our rules were implemented (in fact, I quoted one comment made publicly by someone at MEARS on their bulletin board in my last post). Specifically, in regard to the situation with AMI, I think there were some interactions between the forum and AMI that will need to be explained before people can put it behind them. Personally, I think it has a lot to do with misunderstandings between the parties which is often the case when tensions exist. However, I think the fact that AMI responded to what we had to say here shows that they respect the information generated from our members. In fact, in my mind Victor's calling me back personally to tell me he was not going to sell the jersey is probably something akin to a thank you for our members. I know people will say they would prefer to hear it themselves by having him post a thank you on the forum but I think, given some of the previous history, that will likely take some time.

Once again, I'm sorry if you thought that comment referred to you and thanks again for your contributions to help protect collectors stay free of suspect merchandise. I really think Victor's actions showed he is beginning to understand more about our site (and our intentions) and, in the end, that will go a long way to helping collectors.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier