Questionable business practices (strictly an opinion) thread

[aallanson]

So, long story short, a questionable (and IMHO, that's putting it lightly) business practice was brought to my attention today by the business itself. Before I fly off the handle and possibly overreact, I would like to solicit opinions from the community. I would like to know what you all think.

Here's the story. I purchased two jerseys last week. One was a vintage "team issued" jersey, the other a vintage game used jersey. They arrived last night. I knew one was "team issued" when I purchased it. I was told by the seller that the other was game used. When I examined the jerseys, I noticed that the game used jersey exhibited no wear whatsoever. When I questioned the seller as to why the game used jersey exhibited no wear, I received the following explanation: "I don't know why there isn't much wear, but it was purchased with the name on the back along with all the other worn jerseys. The ones I mark as team issued were all originally blank with no names and we had the official printer put names on the back of those jerseys."

What do you guys think about this explanation?

To me, the jersey I purchased as game used is really "team issued," and the jersey I purchased as "team issued" is, well I don't know what to call it. When the seller purchased it, it was a blank jersey (He seems to imply that the blanks had numbers on them, but no names) that he sent to a printer to have the name added. I guess I thought the team issued jersey had the name added by the team in preparation for use by the player if needed. Maybe that was a bad assumption on my part, but this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I paid via paypal so I am protected, but I wanted to know what you guys thought. I don't want opinions about whether I should return the jerseys (I think the answer is fairly obvious and I am leaning towards returning), rather I was looking for thoughts on what defines team issued, and whether or not what I described above constitutes some sort of fraud or shady business practice on the part of the seller, or is what the seller did something common and accepted by the game worn community.

I have done my best to describe the situation, but I can re-clarify if necessary. Thanks. Alan

[ousooner_85]

I think you pretty much nailed it on the head or I at least agree with your description or ideas of what "game used", "game issued", my least favorite and generally the most confusing and exploited "pro-cut" and then the jersey that was fabricated (not sure what to call that one either)

I've gotten to the point where he sellers description is that last thing I rely on to determine the validity of the item. The tough part on a lot of jerseys are the key factors are hard to determine until the item is in hand.

The easy photo matches are a given and the game use is obvious. The whole issued vs. pro-cut vs. whatever that was you where sold is what makes this industry/hobby the most frustrating. Being well-educated in the differences and the minor inconsistencies aren't always identifiable until the item is in hand, which is what sparks the ire of many of us.

[aallanson]

Thank you for taking the time to reply ousooner_85. I think the word you used (fabricated) is the perfect word to describe what was done. That's why it bothers me so much.

[aallanson]

Thank you for taking the time to reply ousooner_85. I think the word you used (fabricated) is the perfect word to describe what was done. That's why it bothers me so much.

Sorry, hit "submit reply" before finishing. I wanted to add that I prefer adding jerseys to my collection that, if they weren't worn in the game by the player, at least COULD HAVE been worn. The fabricated jersey I was sold could never have been worn by the player as it was fabricated after the fact.

Things become complicated, I think, when $ comes into things. I would be okay adding a team issued jersey to my collection (one I know wasn't worn by the player) as long as I know the team made the jersey with the intent of giving it to the player to wear, if necessary. I would NEVER sell (or even represent it) as game worn if I knew it was team issued. In this case, I was willing to accept a team issued jersey of an all time great player from the team I collect because finding a real game used one might be difficult, if not impossible. It was a placeholder meant for my collection. I guess the lesson I am taking from all this is: Be patient and wait for the real thing.

[ousooner_85]

So what's your take on the "Pro-Cut" jersey?

[aallanson]

So what's your take on the "Pro-Cut" jersey?

Not even sure what the term means. Could you explain?

[johnsontravis@ymail.com]

Vintage jerseys can always be really questionable for the most part. You can never really know. You can't prove that jersey wasn't just worn a couple games.

So really in my opinion it would be good business to refund you for the one you aren't happy with...but if he wants to stick to his explanation I think its wrong as a buyer to file for a refund as you can't prove it not to be used.

[johnsontravis@ymail.com]

However, I might file for a refund on the one he said was team issued if there was no mention of the altering. That is not right.

[aallanson]

To clarify, the seller has said I can return, so I don't think that's an issue.

It's obvious that the "game used" jersey didn't see any game action, but yeah, you are right, it is hard to prove a negative. I have more of an issue with the jersey I bought as "team issued" that I subsequently found out was completely fabricated.

[rufusandherschel]

To clarify, the seller has said I can return, so I don't think that's an issue.

It's obvious that the "game used" jersey didn't see any game action, but yeah, you are right, it is hard to prove a negative. I have more of an issue with the jersey I bought as "team issued" that I subsequently found out was completely fabricated.

Is there anymore that need be said? Return the jersey, and move on!

[aallanson]

Is there anymore that need be said? Return the jersey, and move on!

I was interested in having a dialogue with forum members re: the issue of what constitutes a team issued jersey.

[xpress34]

I was interested in having a dialogue with forum members re: the issue of what constitutes a team issued jersey.

Here's MY PERSONAL Definitions (Talking Baseball - I can't address other sports)

GAME USED : Worn by the player while PARTICIPATING in a Game.

GAME WORN : Worn by player on the bench during a game but player never activated during the game.

GAME ISSUED : Made (by the Team) for a player who never ended up dressing out for the game or never got the expected 'Call Up' after the jersey was made. NEVER worn by the player.

EVENT WORN : Made (by the Team) for a player to wear during a photo op or Fan Event (such as a Fan Fest) but not worn or used during a game.

AUTHENTIC : I'm guessing a 'Pro Cut' would fall under this - Made exactly to player specs (same materials, extra lengths, etc) but made to sell at the Pro Shop, NOT made for the player.

RETAIL Authentic : Same Materials as 'AUTHENTIC', but NOT made to player specs. General basic sizing.

REPLICA : Made with correct colors and fonts, but lower grade materials, generally heat pressed logos, letters and numbers.

KNOCK OFF : Made with better materials than a 'REPLICA' (stitched on numbers, logos, etc) but looks like crap next to an AUTHENTIC.

That said, things to look for in baseball jerseys:

Tagging: since Majestic took over, tagging that starts with '00' is either AUTHENTIC or Made for the Team (GU, GW, EU/EW, GI). i.e. 0062. If it ends with '00' it is RETAIL. i.e. 6200. (This is a General Rule of Thumb and there may be exceptions on occasion).

Sizing: I can't speak for Wilson, Spalding, etc, but as far as Rawlings, Russell and Majestic are concerned, sizing tags can tell you a lot.

If a jersey is sized S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL, it is RETAIL.

If it is sized 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60 it may be AUTHENTIC or Used, but these are the Only sizes available for AUTHENTICS.

If it is sized 38, 42, 46, 50, 54, 58 (the 'in between' sizes) then the jersey was made for the team's use. These sizes are not available for RETAIL. At this point you would need to determine GU, GW, etc...

That said, like anything in life, there are exceptions to the rule.

As an example, in the early days of the Rockies, they took and sold many jerseys for Charity and such and sometimes a player would arrive and not have the Jersey of the Day available. The Rockies staff would then go to the Diamond Dry Goods, grab a jersey off the rack, have them customize t on the spot and bring it back down to the player.

This has been documented via the Rockies and early jerseys that have surfaced with LOAs from the Rockies.

I hope this helps.

- Smitty

[BrianK]

Do the names on the two jerseys look identical? Just curious.

[aallanson]

To clarify, the jerseys I purchased were for two different players. As you can see from my signature below, I collect Florida State football jerseys. The jerseys I purchased were from the late 1980s/early 1990s era. From the time period these two jerseys originate, the name was screened directly onto the back of jersey (see my webpage for examples). In this case, the printer did a good job (said to be the original printer by the seller), and the screening looks "authentic."

[Chess2899]

Major leaguers get some many jerseys that it is sometimes hard to distinguish game worn. They may only wear it a few days. The Braves auctioned off a Maddux game used glove for charity but stated he only used it for one game. The TBC jerseys are only used for one game and a pitcher might be sitting in the bench but it is still game used.

There is a fine line between game used or team issued, but I agree that a team issue means that it was for the player to use.

I would return the stuff and wait for a better opportunity.

[esigs]

Here's MY PERSONAL Definitions (Talking Baseball - I can't address other sports)

GAME USED : Worn by the player while PARTICIPATING in a Game.

GAME WORN : Worn by player on the bench during a game but player never activated during the game.

GAME ISSUED : Made (by the Team) for a player who never ended up dressing out for the game or never got the expected 'Call Up' after the jersey was made. NEVER worn by the player.

EVENT WORN : Made (by the Team) for a player to wear during a photo op or Fan Event (such as a Fan Fest) but not worn or used during a game.

AUTHENTIC : I'm guessing a 'Pro Cut' would fall under this - Made exactly to player specs (same materials, extra lengths, etc) but made to sell at the Pro Shop, NOT made for the player.

RETAIL Authentic : Same Materials as 'AUTHENTIC', but NOT made to player specs. General basic sizing.

REPLICA : Made with correct colors and fonts, but lower grade materials, generally heat pressed logos, letters and numbers.

KNOCK OFF : Made with better materials than a 'REPLICA' (stitched on numbers, logos, etc) but looks like crap next to an AUTHENTIC.

That said, things to look for in baseball jerseys:

Tagging: since Majestic took over, tagging that starts with '00' is either AUTHENTIC or Made for the Team (GU, GW, EU/EW, GI). i.e. 0062. If it ends with '00' it is RETAIL. i.e. 6200. (This is a General Rule of Thumb and there may be exceptions on occasion).

Sizing: I can't speak for Wilson, Spalding, etc, but as far as Rawlings, Russell and Majestic are concerned, sizing tags can tell you a lot.

If a jersey is sized S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL, it is RETAIL.

If it is sized 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60 it may be AUTHENTIC or Used, but these are the Only sizes available for AUTHENTICS.

If it is sized 38, 42, 46, 50, 54, 58 (the 'in between' sizes) then the jersey was made for the team's use. These sizes are not available for RETAIL. At this point you would need to determine GU, GW, etc...

That said, like anything in life, there are exceptions to the rule.

As an example, in the early days of the Rockies, they took and sold many jerseys for Charity and such and sometimes a player would arrive and not have the Jersey of the Day available. The Rockies staff would then go to the Diamond Dry Goods, grab a jersey off the rack, have them customize t on the spot and bring it back down to the player.

This has been documented via the Rockies and early jerseys that have surfaced with LOAs from the Rockies.

I hope this helps.

- Smitty

Smitty, I have a couple of GW/GI jerseys I bought directly from a team, one that is MLB authenticated as GI that have tags 0620 (alternate jersey) and another has 0780 (BP jersey). Do you know why those numbers are different and don't start with 00? I also have a GU/MLB authenticated WBC jersey that has W780 on it. Curious to see if you know about those different codes.

[xpress34]

Smitty, I have a couple of GW/GI jerseys I bought directly from a team, one that is MLB authenticated as GI that have tags 0620 (alternate jersey) and another has 0780 (BP jersey). Do you know why those numbers are different and don't start with 00? I also have a GU/MLB authenticated WBC jersey that has W780 on it. Curious to see if you know about those different codes.

James -

I don't know all of the taggings - Majestic has used so many different codes for Home. Away, Alt, BP, etc... but I have seen single '0' tags like you mentioned as well and those are fine too - i forgot to mention it.

But if it starts with any other number, it's probably retail.

As far as the W on WBC jersey, that could be to tag it as being for the WBC.

- Smitty

[xsentrixsupra]

Here's MY PERSONAL Definitions (Talking Baseball - I can't address other sports)

GAME USED : Worn by the player while PARTICIPATING in a Game.

GAME WORN : Worn by player on the bench during a game but player never activated during the game.

GAME ISSUED : Made (by the Team) for a player who never ended up dressing out for the game or never got the expected 'Call Up' after the jersey was made. NEVER worn by the player.

EVENT WORN : Made (by the Team) for a player to wear during a photo op or Fan Event (such as a Fan Fest) but not worn or used during a game.

AUTHENTIC : I'm guessing a 'Pro Cut' would fall under this - Made exactly to player specs (same materials, extra lengths, etc) but made to sell at the Pro Shop, NOT made for the player.

RETAIL Authentic : Same Materials as 'AUTHENTIC', but NOT made to player specs. General basic sizing.

REPLICA : Made with correct colors and fonts, but lower grade materials, generally heat pressed logos, letters and numbers.

KNOCK OFF : Made with better materials than a 'REPLICA' (stitched on numbers, logos, etc) but looks like crap next to an AUTHENTIC.

That said, things to look for in baseball jerseys:

Tagging: since Majestic took over, tagging that starts with '00' is either AUTHENTIC or Made for the Team (GU, GW, EU/EW, GI). i.e. 0062. If it ends with '00' it is RETAIL. i.e. 6200. (This is a General Rule of Thumb and there may be exceptions on occasion).

Sizing: I can't speak for Wilson, Spalding, etc, but as far as Rawlings, Russell and Majestic are concerned, sizing tags can tell you a lot.

If a jersey is sized S, M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL, it is RETAIL.

If it is sized 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60 it may be AUTHENTIC or Used, but these are the Only sizes available for AUTHENTICS.

If it is sized 38, 42, 46, 50, 54, 58 (the 'in between' sizes) then the jersey was made for the team's use. These sizes are not available for RETAIL. At this point you would need to determine GU, GW, etc...

That said, like anything in life, there are exceptions to the rule.

As an example, in the early days of the Rockies, they took and sold many jerseys for Charity and such and sometimes a player would arrive and not have the Jersey of the Day available. The Rockies staff would then go to the Diamond Dry Goods, grab a jersey off the rack, have them customize t on the spot and bring it back down to the player.

This has been documented via the Rockies and early jerseys that have surfaced with LOAs from the Rockies.

I hope this helps.

- Smitty

Thats good info! Just 1 question though, does that go across all sports? I could have sworn I've seen legit game used NBA jerseys that were size 58 before?

[JDubbs73]

I was interested in having a dialogue with forum members re: the issue of what constitutes a team issued jersey.

I'll preface my response by stating that I only collect NFL game items. That being said:

I generally identify game used and worn as interchangeable terms, but to mean an item that was worn by a player during a game. I think "bench worn" is a more appropriate description if the player never sees game action.

I typically identify game issued as being game ready, based upon a player's specifications/customizations, and issued to the player for a game, or games, in which he did not dress.

Lastly, I generally view team issued as being purchased for the benefit of a player but never modified or issued for actual game use.

I've seen the term "pro-cut" used quite a bit, but in my mind this makes me think retail right away.

[aallanson]

I'll preface my response by stating that I only collect NFL game items. That being said:

I generally identify game used and worn as interchangeable terms, but to mean an item that was worn by a player during a game. I think "bench worn" is a more appropriate description if the player never sees game action.

I typically identify game issued as being game ready, based upon a player's specifications/customizations, and issued to the player for a game, or games, in which he did not dress.

Lastly, I generally view team issued as being purchased for the benefit of a player but never modified or issued for actual game use.

I've seen the term "pro-cut" used quite a bit, but in my mind this makes me think retail right away.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the discussion in this thread.

I think the section I quoted above best mirrors my own thoughts on terms associated with the game worn hobby. Further, a jersey fabricated after the fact does not fall under any of the above categories, IMO.

[G1X]

One issue that has not been addressed in this discussion is that the jersey with the name added after-the-fact by the Seller might actually be a team-issued jersey. Based on bulk buys I have made from football teams over the years, it is not unusual to see numbered jerseys that never had a name on the back (and were never used, of course). These jerseys were usually numbers not assigned that season, or else extras that could be used if needed (e.g., player decides during the year that he wants or needs his jersey tailored differently).

With regards to baseball jerseys, the 1990s Atlanta Braves are a good example of a team that carried extra jerseys that were numbered but did not have names on the back. It is easy to tell players who came aboard during the season as the font added by the team is very distinguishable from the normal font.

I have also made team purchases that included a few jerseys with no numbers. My assumption was that the team had the jerseys on hand for emergencies such as a last-minute roster addition, replacement jerseys, etc.

As for Alan's situation, the Seller should have revealed this information BEFORE selling the jersey.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League uniforms

[aallanson]

One issue that has not been addressed in this discussion is that the jersey with the name added after-the-fact by the Seller might actually be a team-issued jersey. Based on bulk buys I have made from football teams over the years, it is not unusual to see numbered jerseys that never had a name on the back (and were never used, of course). These jerseys were usually numbers not assigned that season, or else extras that could be used if needed (e.g., player decides during the year that he wants or needs his jersey tailored differently).

With regards to baseball jerseys, the 1990s Atlanta Braves are a good example of a team that carried extra jerseys that were numbered but did not have names on the back. It is easy to tell players who came aboard during the season as the font added by the team is very distinguishable from the normal font.

I have also made team purchases that included a few jerseys with no numbers. My assumption was that the team had the jerseys on hand for emergencies such as a last-minute roster addition, replacement jerseys, etc.

As for Alan's situation, the Seller should have revealed this information BEFORE selling the jersey.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League uniforms


There is no doubt in my mind that the jersey originated with the team, and that it was acquired by the seller from the team. However, like you stated, the name was added after the fact, and that is what bothers me. It was sold to me under the guise of, "It doesn't show any wear, so it must just be issued." The reality, revealed after the fact, is much worse. The seller not revealing the alteration because he "didn't think it was important" is not acceptable. Nevertheless, the jersey did originate with the team, when purchased as a blank in a bulk purchase by the seller.