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gorilla777
01-07-2014, 05:14 PM
It looks like a good number of guys should make it from this group, at least eventually.

I hate the voting protocol and all that nonsense, especially this sort of report:
This writer, Ken Gurnick, has a pretty ridiculous angle-
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2014-01-07/baseball-hall-of-fame-2014-ken-gurnick-explains-his-jack-morris-vote

Maddux, Thomas, Glavine and Biggio seem most likely to me...but I could make cases for about 6-7 other players eligible - Piazza, Raines, etc.
Either you are a Hall of Famer or you are not, just vote 'em in.

Wondered what everyone thinks on the subject?

gorilla777
01-07-2014, 05:22 PM
Also, to note on the writer Gurnick's stance, the careers of Jack Morris and Greg Maddux overlapped a total of 9 seasons. That makes it hard to say they are from completely different eras....

Ben

3arod13
01-07-2014, 05:25 PM
It looks like a good number of guys should make it from this group, at least eventually.

I hate the voting protocol and all that nonsense, especially this sort of report:
This writer, Ken Gurnick, has a pretty ridiculous angle-
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2014-01-07/baseball-hall-of-fame-2014-ken-gurnick-explains-his-jack-morris-vote

Maddux, Thomas, Glavine and Biggio seem most likely to me...but I could make cases for about 6-7 other players eligible - Piazza, Raines, etc.
Either you are a Hall of Famer or you are not, just vote 'em in.

Wondered what everyone thinks on the subject?

Although not proven, wasn't Piiazza mentioned as using PEDS?

3arod13
01-07-2014, 05:29 PM
Although not proven, wasn't Piiazza mentioned as using PEDS?

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html

onlyalbert
01-07-2014, 05:37 PM
I think that's a waste of a vote based on his opinion and it should be taken away from him. I also think people that vote ridiculously, such as voting Molina 10th or leaving him off all together, for MVP....they should have their votes taken away too. Maybe some of the voting for these awards should come from players/coaches. And yes I know HOF and season awards are different animals.

KGoldin
01-07-2014, 05:47 PM
Piazza and bagwell will both get in, although maybe not this year

This year I think biggio MIGHT get left out
Locks are Maddox and Thomas. Close to lock but not definite is glavine. Biggio should get in this season but weirder things have happened.

Piazza greatest hitting catcher ever, and you. Cant believe every rumour you hear, and even if you do , I am of the " so what" school

I hope one day bonds and Clemens get in. They were both hall of famers all throughout career, not just some freak pop due to use.

Nnunnari
01-07-2014, 07:31 PM
Everybody has to be let in, plain and simple. If Biggio or Piazza tried juicing for a few weeks one offseason but didn't like it and quit, are they as guilty as Clemens and Bonds? Where do you draw the line?
Everybody needs to get in, including the Crime Dog who's one of the real victims here.

KGoldin
01-07-2014, 08:04 PM
Everybody has to be let in, plain and simple. If Biggio or Piazza tried juicing for a few weeks one offseason but didn't like it and quit, are they as guilty as Clemens and Bonds? Where do you draw the line?
Everybody needs to get in, including the Crime Dog who's one of the real victims here.
Agree on all points

KGoldin
01-07-2014, 08:10 PM
Take this guys ability to vote away please....
http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=10259259

earlywynnfan
01-07-2014, 08:25 PM
Best thing about this link was the Justified preview!

Ken

GoTigers
01-07-2014, 08:47 PM
I think this guy is just trying to get interviews on national programming and get his article circulated, there is no way to justify his vote.

Roady
01-07-2014, 09:14 PM
I know he is not on the ballot this year but I can't understand all the love and blindness to Ivan Rodriguez.
If anyone can suspected of PED use it would be him. He was mentioned by Canseco and others if I am not mistaken. Not to mention he played with Juan Gonzalez and others during their PED days.

Roady
01-07-2014, 09:16 PM
One more thing about Ivan Rodriguez I remember is when asked if he a was on the list of 100 he said "Only God knows".

EricTheRed44
01-07-2014, 09:29 PM
I'd agree on Glavine, Maddux and Biggio. Probably Big Hurt as well, although I think he'll take a few years possibly. Edgar Martinez I never really liked for one reason or another, but he was on the West Coast and I rarely saw him play. I grew up going to Reds games and saw Maddux and Glavine more times than I'd like to remember.

In the mid 90's I was in my teens and had seats right where the pitchers warmed up on the visitors side at Riverfront Stadium. I somewhat heckled Maddux because he was wearing glasses and made some dumb comment asking him if he was going to turn into Superman when he took the glasses off. Sure enough... he did. I think he gave up one run and dominated. When he came off the field he was a few feet away from me and winked... That was the first and last time I tried being a smart ass to a visiting pitcher.

Roady
01-07-2014, 09:35 PM
That was a great story about Maddux.
He was always pure class.

Hoosier39
01-07-2014, 11:15 PM
One more thing about Ivan Rodriguez I remember is when asked if he a was on the list of 100 he said "Only God knows".

Pudge is one of the greatest all around catchers ever. If you are going to bring up the suspicion card, then I'm guessing you wouldn't vote for Piazza, Bagwell, and Biggio either?

Roady
01-07-2014, 11:26 PM
Pudge is one of the greatest all around catchers ever. If you are going to bring up the suspicion card, then I'm guessing you wouldn't vote for Piazza, Bagwell, and Biggio either?

I never said I would or wouldn't vote for him. I never said if he should be or shouldn't be in the HOF one day. Pure conjecture on your part.

Your post is a perfect example of what I asked about. You are defensive about him. Why?

The post's about Piazza is why I was asking why everyone seems to ignore the questions about Rodriguez.
They question many with much less suspension than he has surrounding him so it seems very odd. Piazza is constantly brought up when talking about PED's.
I believe it has a lot to do with the money many have spent on his merchandise and not wanting to see that investment take a hit. Just my opinion.
I have no idea if you have any of his stuff so I don't know what your defensive about.
Besides being one of the greatest all around catchers ever as you put it, why can't we discuss his possible PED use without people getting upset?

Roady
01-07-2014, 11:45 PM
I didn't mean to take the conversation away from the original intent.

Maybe we can revisit this when Rodriguez is due to be voted on.

Please carry on.

And Hoosier39 you can reply if you like to my last post but I will not post about Rodriguez in this thread again.

sportsnbikes
01-07-2014, 11:51 PM
There are so many arguments and reasons why the players who are suspected SHOULD be included.

Looking back at history, how many "cheaters", proven or otherwise are in the Hall. A few that come to mind are Perry, Ford, Cobb, McGraw and Greenburg. Even Mantle was known to get an infection in 1961 after receiving a steroid injection.

Tom House admits widespread use of steroids in the 60's & 70's. Here is the article. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm

Many players have also admitted to using amphetamines or "Red Juice" including Mike Schmidt. Here is an article addressing that.
http://www.faniq.com/blog/Amphetamines-in-Baseball-Blog-19359

I don't see how any of these supplements is any different than steroids in the mid 90's up until testing and when it was made illegal in baseball. They were all illegal by law but not necessarily in the sport. Cepada is in and he got in AFTER getting popped for cocaine. Cocaine use was also rampant when it was the popular drug in the mid 70's and 80's. I think it's still used by several players and know of a few players who used it in the last several years. Known cheaters in ways other than steroids are in the hall i.e. Perry. Cheating is cheating. If you let someone in for one thing, you have to let them all in, regardlesss of how they cheated.

Were Clemens and many of the others ever proven to have used any substance? Many players have been deemed guilty by association. That is completely unfair. In the past, players with 3000 hits were automatic. Biggio still isn't in and that's pretty silly. He wasn't popping 40 or 50 HR's a year.

I say let em in!!!

Hoosier39
01-08-2014, 12:01 AM
Wow. Not being defensive. You brought up Rodriguez and suspicion so I gave my opinion. The 3 names that I mentioned(I actually forgot Sheffield) have all had the same suspicion in some levels, just curious why you pointed out Rodriguez. It seemed like you aren't very high on Pudge, perhaps to even vote for him, so I asked you if you would vote for the others.

No problem. Didn't realize my post was going to upset you.

EricTheRed44
01-08-2014, 12:05 AM
I dont agree with letting proven roiders in. But if we're opening the door for people who cheated, then you have to let Pete Rose in first. I'm the first to say what he did was idiotic and wrong, but if you allow people in who's numbers were improved by roids then you have to let Pete in (with his possibly corked bat).

If someone like Bonds gets in before Pete its a joke.

sportsnbikes
01-08-2014, 12:20 AM
I dont agree with letting proven roiders in. But if we're opening the door for people who cheated, then you have to let Pete Rose in first. I'm the first to say what he did was idiotic and wrong, but if you allow people in who's numbers were improved by roids then you have to let Pete in (with his possibly corked bat).

If someone like Bonds gets in before Pete its a joke.

I agree Rose should be in. Pretty silly he isn't already. After all, he was betting as a manager. He wasn't going to be in the Hall as a manager. His player numbers gets him in and as far as it is known, he wasn't betting as a player.

Roady
01-08-2014, 12:41 AM
Wow. Not being defensive. You brought up Rodriguez and suspicion so I gave my opinion. The 3 names that I mentioned(I actually forgot Sheffield) have all had the same suspicion in some levels, just curious why you pointed out Rodriguez. It seemed like you aren't very high on Pudge, perhaps to even vote for him, so I asked you if you would vote for the others.

No problem. Didn't realize my post was going to upset you.

Not upset. :)

plinvestments
01-08-2014, 01:01 AM
Jeff Kent deserves to get in but it won't happen this year. I just hope he gets enough votes to stay on the ballot and that goes for Mussina too.

3arod13
01-08-2014, 05:50 AM
I believe 7 of the 104 who tested positive in 2003 are known. So it will always be on my mind, who are the other 97 that tested positive? Will any of those 97 get into the HOF?

For me, there are those players who used and weren't going to become HOF players. And there are those who used and were going to become HOF players.

Do I believe using helped. Yes! Brady Anderson proved that.

Cheating in baseball to get an edge has been going on for years and years, in many different ways. Anytime you do something that gives you an unfair edge against another player/team, is cheating.

This discussion will go on forever!

gorilla777
01-08-2014, 11:20 AM
The announcement will be at 11am PST, so we shall see. It would make perfect sense if they voted in Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Morris and Biggio. But that might be too many for many of these sports writers and their heads will spontaneously combust....

Ben

3arod13
01-08-2014, 11:28 AM
The announcement will be at 11am PST, so we shall see. It would make perfect sense if they voted in Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Morris and Biggio. But that might be too many for many of these sports writers and their heads will spontaneously combust....

Ben

Still bugs me that there are 97 of the 104 out there who tested positive in 2003, and we will never know who they are, and they could easily get into the HOF.

What a mess!

gorilla777
01-08-2014, 11:44 AM
This is a good article by Jayson Stark at ESPN discussing the voting issues:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10253089/jayson-stark-2014-mlb-hall-fame-ballot

swainer
01-08-2014, 11:45 AM
I think it is a shame that no player from the 84 Tigers is in the HOF. I hope Morris changes that. I'm probably biased but I think Parrish, Tram and Sweet Lou should be in as well.

Peace!

John

godwulf
01-08-2014, 12:13 PM
I don't know how long it's been since they voted in three players in a year, but I know they haven't voted in four players since the '50s.

I think Maddux is a lock, and one other - either Glavine, Biggio or Thomas. My preference would be for Biggio. The other two are deserving, but all things considered, I don't believe that more than two will be selected at a time. Maybe they should - I just don't think they will.

If I were the Commissioner of Baseball, my first official act would be to reverse the call that kept Armando Galarraga from his Perfecto. My second would be to clear the way for Pete Rose to do or be anything in Baseball he wanted. My third would be to inform the HOF that the day Barry Bonds is installed there, their ties to MLB would be irrevocably dissolved.

Nnunnari
01-08-2014, 12:26 PM
Pete Rose was a scumbag who compromised the game of baseball and broke the cardinal rule of gambling on the sport. He knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal. The steroid guys were just keeping up with everybody else and doing something that was not even tested for or considered illegal by MLB, some would argue that MLB even promoted the use.
Rose should not be let in before the steroid guys.

Pudge is 100% a steroid guy and 100% should be in the Hall. An incredible catcher playing in that Arlington heat every year.

The best of the best go into the Hall of Fame. The steroid guys were the best of the steroid guys. It all sorts itself out. Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Brady Anderson and on and on, had great years but did not sustain the greatness. Guys like Sheffield, mentally and physically kept at it long enough to become Hall of Famers.

jbsportstuff
01-08-2014, 12:48 PM
If you are looking for the best of the best, you cannot overlook Pete Rose.

xpress34
01-08-2014, 01:03 PM
I don't know how long it's been since they voted in three players in a year, but I know they haven't voted in four players since the '50s.

I think Maddux is a lock, and one other - either Glavine, Biggio or Thomas. My preference would be for Biggio. The other two are deserving, but all things considered, I don't believe that more than two will be selected at a time. Maybe they should - I just don't think they will.

If I were the Commissioner of Baseball, my first official act would be to reverse the call that kept Armando Galarraga from his Perfecto. My second would be to clear the way for Pete Rose to do or be anything in Baseball he wanted. My third would be to inform the HOF that the day Barry Bonds is installed there, their ties to MLB would be irrevocably dissolved.

In 1999 - you had Ryan, Brett and Cepeda... not sure if three have gone in together since then...

gorilla777
01-08-2014, 01:06 PM
In 1999 - you had Ryan, Brett and Cepeda... not sure if three have gone in together since then...

Yes, and it seems ridiculous to me. Look at football, inducting 10 at a time, if they are deserving. I don't get the restrictions they have, max votes, etc. It ultimately will cost deserving guys that get overlooked unfairly....

EricTheRed44
01-08-2014, 01:37 PM
Pete Rose was a scumbag who compromised the game of baseball and broke the cardinal rule of gambling on the sport. He knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal. The steroid guys were just keeping up with everybody else and doing something that was not even tested for or considered illegal by MLB, some would argue that MLB even promoted the use.
Rose should not be let in before the steroid guys.

Pudge is 100% a steroid guy and 100% should be in the Hall. An incredible catcher playing in that Arlington heat every year.

The best of the best go into the Hall of Fame. The steroid guys were the best of the steroid guys. It all sorts itself out. Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Brady Anderson and on and on, had great years but did not sustain the greatness. Guys like Sheffield, mentally and physically kept at it long enough to become Hall of Famers.


It's a joke if you have a ton of roiders in the game and not the Hit King. Guys like Bonds tarnished the game for the all-time greats. If you have a kid and he looks in a sports almanac he's going to think Bonds, Sosa and McGwire were better than players like Ruth, Mantle and Mays. Its idiotic to say let the roiders in and you keep Rose out. Petes actions didn't change the outcome of any games while the history of the game was changed by men who cheated it by using roids.

KGoldin
01-08-2014, 01:53 PM
as I said....Maddux, Glavine and Thomas....

EricTheRed44
01-08-2014, 01:55 PM
I think Biggio has a better shot than Thomas this year, the others I agree with though.

KGoldin
01-08-2014, 01:56 PM
its been announced
Biggio 74.8% did NOT get in

EricTheRed44
01-08-2014, 02:00 PM
Damn. So he missed it by .2?

Ok, I can handle being wrong by .2 I guess. I thought Frank might be next year, glad he got in though.

mdb240
01-08-2014, 02:09 PM
Has anyone ever paid the membership fee to the Hall of Fame to get seated in the reserved section for the induction. The low price is $500 but I am seriously considering it. How does it work, first come first served except for the family seating and such? How early can you show up to sit In the reserved section so you can get close?

Thanks!

3arod13
01-08-2014, 02:10 PM
NEW YORK, Jan 8 (Reuters) - Pitchers Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4122) and slugger Frank Thomas were elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in results announced on Wednesday by the Baseball Writers' Association of America.
Players needed to be on 75 percent of the 571 ballots cast for election to the Cooperstown shrine.

sox83cubs84
01-08-2014, 02:30 PM
Congrats to all three me, all worthy enshrinees. My only regrets are Jack Morris not getting in and Craig Biggio waiting another year. I also would have liked to see Jeff Bagwell fare better.

Dave Miedema

Roady
01-08-2014, 02:38 PM
Glad to see Maddux and Glavine going in together. Bobby Cox must be so proud to be going in with them.

3arod13
01-08-2014, 02:40 PM
Was alway a fan of Frank Thomas! Glad to see him get it!

coxfan
01-08-2014, 03:57 PM
A great group! Torre had a Braves' connection. He was one of the first Atlanta Braves. I recall that in 1967 Bob Uecker, who was backup catcher behind Torre, said he was Phil Niekro's special catcher because he was more expendable than Torre. (I think Uecker's the one who said that the way to catch a Niekro knuckler was to wait until it stopped rolling and pick it up; or maybe that was said by another knuckler catcher).

Torre also managed the Braves to their second-ever division title in 1982, when the Braves set the MLB record with 13 straight wins to start a season. Torre also gained a division title with the Dodgers after the Yankees gave him a vote of little confidence. My wife got his autograph on the same ball with Lasorda in spring training.

cjclong
01-08-2014, 05:33 PM
Mantle got an injection for an injury from a quack doctor at the end of the 61 season but it wasn't steroids. Those didn't take off in baseball until much later. Back then no one in baseball lifted weights. It was thought they would make you muscle bound and lose your flexibility. In fact very few football players lifted back then either.

sportsnbikes
01-08-2014, 05:55 PM
Pete Rose was a scumbag who compromised the game of baseball and broke the cardinal rule of gambling on the sport. He knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal. The steroid guys were just keeping up with everybody else and doing something that was not even tested for or considered illegal by MLB, some would argue that MLB even promoted the use.
Rose should not be let in before the steroid guys.

Pudge is 100% a steroid guy and 100% should be in the Hall. An incredible catcher playing in that Arlington heat every year.

The best of the best go into the Hall of Fame. The steroid guys were the best of the steroid guys. It all sorts itself out. Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Brady Anderson and on and on, had great years but did not sustain the greatness. Guys like Sheffield, mentally and physically kept at it long enough to become Hall of Famers.

True he did bet on the sport...as a manager. His managerial numbers aren't the stats that get him into the hall. He should be in for what he did as a player.

sportsnbikes
01-08-2014, 05:58 PM
Mantle got an injection for an injury from a quack doctor at the end of the 61 season but it wasn't steroids. Those didn't take off in baseball until much later. Back then no one in baseball lifted weights. It was thought they would make you muscle bound and lose your flexibility. In fact very few football players lifted back then either.

Not according to Tom House. According to his admission, steroids were in the game back then. Maybe not 61 but the late 60's they were. Click the link I posted on this thread.

sportsnbikes
01-08-2014, 06:02 PM
Pete Rose was a scumbag who compromised the game of baseball and broke the cardinal rule of gambling on the sport. He knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal. The steroid guys were just keeping up with everybody else and doing something that was not even tested for or considered illegal by MLB, some would argue that MLB even promoted the use.
Rose should not be let in before the steroid guys.

Pudge is 100% a steroid guy and 100% should be in the Hall. An incredible catcher playing in that Arlington heat every year.

The best of the best go into the Hall of Fame. The steroid guys were the best of the steroid guys. It all sorts itself out. Juan Gonzalez, Albert Belle, Luis Gonzalez, Brady Anderson and on and on, had great years but did not sustain the greatness. Guys like Sheffield, mentally and physically kept at it long enough to become Hall of Famers.

And how can you say all the steroids didn't compromise the game of baseball? Look at all this drama surrounding the voting process. If the steroids weren't involved, this discussion isn't even taking place! Steroids compromised the game in a very big way.

coophallmonitor
01-09-2014, 09:59 AM
I think this is a great class going in though I wish Biggio could have gotten those last two votes to go in this year. Seeing Palmeiro drop off completely with McGwire and Sosa staying on the ballot surprised me a bit. Hope to see Mussinas votes increase a lot in the coming years...

Flamechicken
01-09-2014, 12:52 PM
Good class of Braves! Still hoping for the Crimedog!

Mike