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gujerseylover
12-16-2005, 07:23 PM
Just curious what other people think. The sleeves on this jersey look way too small.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-PEYTON-MANNING-GAME-USED-COLTS-HOME-JERSEY-PSI_W0QQitemZ8739034828QQcategoryZ86829QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem

I was looking at photos of manning from 2002 and look at the sleeves on this jersey
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=1716773&cdi=0

I understand it is a different color, but for a quarterback's jersey they look way too small. It almost looks like an authentic jersey with a year tag sewn in. I'm not making any accusations, I'm just curious if anyone else agrees with me, because this is the second one from this seller that I have seen, and I don't feel comfortable bidding on it if it is not real.

mchmaj
12-16-2005, 07:30 PM
you forgot one more thing .....
the colts wears 50th anniv patch on left shoulder during 2002 season and this is game worn, where is the patch ??


marcus

Eric
12-17-2005, 12:14 AM
Here's a shot of the patch which appeared on all of their regular season home and away jerseys in 2002
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/1672249.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421E55427FE0E025D160EDD40AD0600 FDF3


Here is a shot of the sleeve length
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/1376749.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942149949F9646FE62540EDD40AD0600 FDF3

Can anyone find pics of Peyton wearing shorter sleeves in 2002?

gujerseylover
12-17-2005, 12:32 AM
I have looked at every picture I can find from 2002 season, and none of them have a short sleeve length. Also, upon re-reading the auction description, he says "REMNANTS OF WHERE 50TH ANNIVERSARY PATCH WAS IS EVIDENT AND WAS REMOVED" Now why would anyone ever remove a 50th anniversary patch from a Peyton Manning jersey? This does not make sense either.

hof89
12-17-2005, 11:15 AM
Jersey appears to have had "cuffed" sleeves at one point, which were removed and re-sewn to look open. With that, there is not enough length to the sleeves...if Manning was to put this jersey on, would the sleeves hang the same way as they do of him in the photo? No. Moreover, compare the length of material on the sleeves after the #'s from the jersey being offered vs. the photo of Manning...not a match...

p.s....I have seen several sellers trying to sell game wor or issued jerseys on EBAY, were the sleeves don't look right....i.e..."cuffed" at one point, removed, and re-sewn to looked open....

Eric
12-18-2005, 10:33 AM
I have looked at every picture I can find from 2002 season, and none of them have a short sleeve length. Also, upon re-reading the auction description, he says "REMNANTS OF WHERE 50TH ANNIVERSARY PATCH WAS IS EVIDENT AND WAS REMOVED" Now why would anyone ever remove a 50th anniversary patch from a Peyton Manning jersey? This does not make sense either.

We have seen many examples of this. In other threads we have spoken extensively about Yankees Steiner selling 1997 game used jerseys with the Jackie Robinson patch removed.

Eric

trsent
12-19-2005, 06:08 PM
Since, the owner of PSI is Bernie Gernay, and he is an expert listed on this website, maybe he can shed some light in how he authenticated and is selling these Colts jerseys? I just can't believe there has been no response.

Bernie J. Gernay
12-20-2005, 12:22 AM
Thanks for inquiring. These Colts jerseys came from the team last year. In fact, every item we obtain comes from either the team (equipment managers) or players. It is impossible to photomatch every jersey you see according to sleeve length, tail length, etc. and because you can't, doesn't necessarily mean the item is not authentic which I'm sure many of you know already. When we received these Colts jerseys it was an option to put the 50th patches on them but doing so would not make them in the original condition in which we received them. If anyone has additional questions please feel free to contact me at BJGERNAY@aol.com

trsent
12-20-2005, 03:05 AM
Thank you for the reply, Bernie, very professional.

Happy Holidays! :)

kingjammy24
12-20-2005, 06:42 PM
Bernie et al,
Actually, the great part about an NFL season is the fact that because the season is a mere 16 games, you actually can photomatch every jersey. So without further adieu, I present to you every single game of 2002 in which Peyton Manning wore a blue jersey. Bernie, seeing as how this is photo-proof of every single 2002 game, in which of these exactly did Peyton wear short sleeves?

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5353/manning9xi.jpg


Rudy.

Nathan
12-20-2005, 10:35 PM
I don't pay much attention to what he wears in the NFL, but I can confirm that Peyton wore uncuffed long sleeves from 1994-97 while at Tennessee.

kingjammy24
12-21-2005, 01:25 AM
Gujerseylover,

I hope you weren't one of the 32 poor saps who placed a bid
on this sad jersey?

Rudy.

chris13
12-21-2005, 02:08 PM
As someone relatively new to this hobby I found this post to be very interesting. I was considering bidding on this item too before seeing the comments posted by hof89 and the pictures posted by kingjammy24.

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to research these items before bidding. Out of curiosity how were you able to find all the photos rudy?

Any other insight to doing your homework would be appreciated as well.

Nathan
12-21-2005, 04:57 PM
chris13,

Welcome!

As any collector worth his salt can tell you, doing homework is the most important part of deciding whether or not to buy a particular jersey. There's various ways to do it.

1) Photographic archives -- Getty Images (gettyimages.com) has an extensive archive from every sporting event known to man. Although it's not always possible to gain a slam-dunk photomatch from Getty, you can get a good sense for what certain players wear.

It also allows you to see the slight nuances between certain years of a team's style. For example, my area is U of Tennessee football, and I can tell you that although they appear alike, every year from 1989-2004 had a difference in the jersey from the previous year that the "average person" might never pick up on.

2) Video -- Even better than photographs; since a good clear video can be played clearly on just about any size TV (or run into a computer for video capture), you can get a better sense for what was worn and how.

Video actually refuted a jersey I own; I have a Tennessee jersey from 1992 used by fullback Mose Phillips. Thanks to a video that showed a strangely placed size tag, I was able to determine that it wasn't the same one worn during his famous 66-yard scamper against Florida in a monsoon that year. Somewhat disappointing, but it made the history of the jersey more clear

3) Reading materials -- Always a good (and very underused) resource

4) Asking other collectors -- There's a TON of information to be had among collectors. If anyone needs to know about Philadelphia Phillies stuff, Howard Wolf has an encyclopedic mind for much of their history. I'd put more faith in him than I ever would "Lou Lampson". And most collectors know more about their chosen area of specialty than even the players or (in some cases) the equipment guys themselves.

kingjammy24
12-21-2005, 05:41 PM
chris (et al),

in this particular instance, i first found the colt's 2002 schedule from nfl.com. i wanted to be absolutely certain that i had every single game from a reliable source. interestingly enough, when you look at individual game re-caps on nfl.com, they'll sometimes have photos from that particular game. at any rate, i went to gettyimages.com and one by one, i started looking for each game. the dates on the getty images matched the colt's schedule perfectly. additionally, i intentionally chose pictures which showed the opposing team so that nobody could say that my pictures weren't really from the specific games i'm claiming. luckily, thanks to nfl.com and gettyimages it was all pretty easy. bernie is claiming that his jersey was worn in one of those games. well, with every single game posted, i don't see bernie's jersey anywhere. this leaves 4 possibilities:
1) bernie's jersey is a fake
2) the indianapolis colts are selling fake jerseys
3) during one of the 2002 games, peyton decided to change mid-game into a jersey with short sleeves and thus i didn't get the exact picture
of the second, "short sleeve" jersey that he changed into.
4) after a game, peyton gave his jersey back to the colts who then decided to shorten the sleeves before giving it to bernie.

regarding research: i collect baseball jerseys. so i tend to start with bill henderson's "mlb style guide". it's not 100% complete or 100% correct, but it's one of the best things out there. after confirming things with bill's guide, i'll go to gettyimages.com, the mlb.com photo archives, google images search, my own baseball cards, etc. i'll even go on ebay to search baseball cards because sometimes the seller will show a closeup of the card(s) they're selling. i'll also search the results of lelands, mastronet, greyflannel to see if i can find any more insight into the particular jersey i'm looking to buy. lelands' search option includes the ability to search every single past auction. then i'll talk to anyone who i think might know about the jersey i want to buy. if everything lines up, i'll move forward.
it's even better if the jersey has great provenance, eg: if it's directly from a team or player. if not, then i think the jersey should be able to stand on it's own given my research.

rudy.

trsent
12-21-2005, 05:48 PM
regarding research: i collect baseball jerseys. so i tend to start with bill henderson's "mlb style guide".

Is this the same Bill Henerson who is also known as "The King of Cards" or maybe it is "The King of Commons"?

Happy Holidays! :)

kingjammy24
12-21-2005, 06:21 PM
One thing I forgot to mention re: research:

Always check the rosters!. I use www.baseball-almanac.com (http://www.baseball-almanac.com) for rosters.

You'll be surprised and shocked sometimes when you check the rosters for jerseys you want to buy. Non-existant players, players not on the team at the time, players who left the team before a certain patch applied, jerseys showing use when the player was supposed to have been injured for that whole season, etc. (I'm still trying to figure out who the heck "Oliveras" was for the 1993 Texas Rangers.).
Always check the rosters.

Rudy.

trsent
12-21-2005, 06:38 PM
(I'm still trying to figure out who the heck "Oliveras" was for the 1993 Texas Rangers.).


I love this site:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/olivefr01.shtml

and it tells you that Francisco Oliveras signed with The Rangers in December 1992, but he never appeared in a major league game for them.

Happy Holidays! :)

hof89
12-21-2005, 09:09 PM
The seller of this jersey is on this forum constantly, but chooses not to address the issued with this jersey? He needs to come out and address the provenance of this jersey so there are no questions, to which there are many at this point. My opinion??? The sleeves are "bad", with that thumbs down to any prospective buyer....

Bernie J. Gernay
12-21-2005, 10:59 PM
My story will not change on this jersey nor any of the Colts jerseys that I have sold the past 2 years. I can sit here and flip-flop like John Kerry but I must remain true to the provenance.

I will again state the facts:

This jersey was received by my company from the Colts about 15 months ago with 2 other Peyton Manning jerseys. While I must agree this Manning is not the best example, the fact of it coming from the team has merit. I understand that pictures depict him not wearing the shorter sleeve jerseys in games from 2002. This research I did not get into, nor was aware of it until just now. I was only aware of where indeed we sourced the jerseys from and the fact the fonts "MANNING" were correct. In most cases many will sell a game issued Colts jersey with the incorrect name font as I'm sure many are aware of what I'm referring to. The game use on this jersey was light but consistent as well. With these things in mind I was comfortable selling the jersey as such not questioning the authenticity, obviously as per the source.

In light of all mentioned I feel compelled to remove the listing from eBay. While the jersey may be correct in all facets excluding the sleeve length, I may only be 90% comfortable with the jersey being listed as such and if I am not 100% comfortable I can't put my name or my company name behind it. I appreciate all of your patience behind this while I have come to a decision that I feel is the right one.

trsent
12-22-2005, 12:01 AM
In light of all mentioned I feel compelled to remove the listing from eBay. While the jersey may be correct in all facets excluding the sleeve length, I may only be 90% comfortable with the jersey being listed as such and if I am not 100% comfortable I can't put my name or my company name behind it. I appreciate all of your patience behind this while I have come to a decision that I feel is the right one.

Bernie, I do not know if you jersey is legitimate or not, but one thing we all have learned over the years is that even the best source sometimes unknowingly sells us something that just isn't right. I wish you luck determining this jersey valid based on the information provided in this post. I have found research myself to contradict findings of others of my own items in the past, and if you do your homework maybe you'll find what you are looking for.

Happy Holidays! :)

ChrisCavalier
12-22-2005, 03:01 PM
With these things in mind I was comfortable selling the jersey as such not questioning the authenticity, obviously as per the source.

In light of all mentioned I feel compelled to remove the listing from eBay. While the jersey may be correct in all facets excluding the sleeve length, I may only be 90% comfortable with the jersey being listed as such and if I am not 100% comfortable I can't put my name or my company name behind it. I appreciate all of your patience behind this while I have come to a decision that I feel is the right one.
Hello Bernie-

I believe you should be applauded for your decision. I know it was difficult given your belief in the source that provided the jersey but I think it speaks volumes that you are willing to amend your opinion in light of information provided.

I, for one, appreciate the fact that you are willing to forfeit potential profit for the sake of doing what is right...something not always found in today's hobby.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO Game Used Universe

kingjammy24
12-22-2005, 04:42 PM
Chris,

I agree it's a good thing for Bernie to have removed the jersey from Ebay.
But a part of me also thinks if you've got the time to collect the profits, then you should also have the time to authenticate it properly.
It took me about 15 min and $0 to prove that jersey wasn't worn in any game in 2002. I'm not an "expert". I'm not a "professional" (aka paid)
authenticator.
It's one thing to say "I did substantial research but I never encountered this detail". It happens to us all. It's no excuse to say "I didn't get in to the research". This is a substantial investment for some buyer; you owe them at least that effort.
This wasn't a hard error to catch. It's a 2002 jersey of one of the most popular, premier players in the entire league. The sleeves were glaringly incorrect. How did they not stand out? I collect early 90's Blue Jays jerseys and have bought directly from the team. If they sent me a 1991 Roberto Alomar which was labelled "size 54", it would be impossible to miss. Even though I know it came from the Jays, I would have to call them because something is very wrong and needs to be explained.

Like I said earlier, there are mistakes and there are MISTAKES.

Rudy.

EndzoneSports
12-26-2005, 03:37 AM
One thing I forgot to mention re: research:

Always check the rosters!. I use www.baseball-almanac.com (http://www.baseball-almanac.com) for rosters.

You'll be surprised and shocked sometimes when you check the rosters for jerseys you want to buy. Non-existant players, players not on the team at the time, players who left the team before a certain patch applied, jerseys showing use when the player was supposed to have been injured for that whole season, etc. (I'm still trying to figure out who the heck "Oliveras" was for the 1993 Texas Rangers.).
Always check the rosters.

Rudy.

For those whose interests lean more towards the gridiron, there's a couple of useful sites for us to use for reference as well:

At http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/rosters.nsf/ you can drill down by year and then team (to see the year's team roster) then select a particular player link to view that player's career career stats.
http://www.databasefootball.com/index.htm is an online database of historical statistics of broad scope like having parts of every teams' media guides at your disposal.

dcrobt
06-23-2006, 08:00 PM
can find a real one besides the ones from ISE?
I bought this jersey from bernie as team issued for 700 dollars
i was really pleased with all the stuff i got from him but i will have to be more careful in the future too as well.
I knew about getty but didn't realize it was the first major place i should go when i research an item etc. now i leanred this the hard way!!!
bernie is a super nice fellow!

dcrobt
11-03-2006, 12:27 AM
there are just way too many of thse with short sleeves.
i just sold the 3 i had i purchased from bernie too!
if you don't buy it from peyton and get an affidavit, then rest assured it is not the real thing.
one on ebay right now with letter from mears
always mears i guess they need to go to getty and see for themselves.
every game has been researched and not one has these shorter sleeves!