Reselling items not in your possession

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

As a side topic alluded to in a previous thread, I wanted to make sure collectors are aware there is a possibility you may be dealing with someone who is looking to resell an item they do not physically have in their possession.

Please note I am not stating that was the backdrop for why the item was returned in the thread that was deleted. In fact, the buyer claimed there was a different reason for the item being returned (determining whether true or not is outside of the scope of this forum). However, I think it is very useful for collectors to be aware that there are people in the marketplace who may be looking to resell items that they do not have in their possession.

While some people do not have a problem with the fact that people are looking to act as a type of "broker" or that they are looking to "flip" an item for a profit, I think it is worth noting that there are possible implications that might be inherent in that type of transaction. For example, if the item is not physically in the person's possession when they are looking to sell it, they may not be able to accrue the item even after a deal is reached. Or, if they are buying an item from you for resale, they may not come through if their buyer backs out of the resale arrangement.

While I do not believe it is illegal to look to resell items you do not have in your possession, I highly suggest you clarify with the other party up front if they physically have the item they are looking to sell or if they are looking to resell it if they are buying from you. Regarding the latter, I would also highly suggest you define any return policy up front, including requirements for a return (like a rejection letter from an authentication company, etc), to make sure there are no complications later.

Happy to hear members comments on the topic. However, please note this thread is intended to be an educational thread and not one to grip about previous transactions or make accusations toward other parties. There are many collectors who may have limited experience in the buying/selling process and this thread is designed to help educate them on possible implications and the thread will be moderated as such.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

-Chris

[Roady]

I would think that selling something that you do not own is illegal.

[ChrisCavalier]

I would think that selling something that you do not own is illegal.
There are plenty of people in the marketplace who act as "brokers" which I do not believe is illegal. If an authority on legal matters has additional perspective, please feel free to provide that information.

-Chris

[KGoldin]

Offering it for sale is not illegal
Concluding a transaction and taking someone else's money with no intent to deliver is. Illegal.
In the trading card world ( more then gu) there are Many well known "brokers" that run web sites listing cards for sale they do not own, but supposedly have permission to list. The famous t206 honus Wagner listed on eBay ( psa 1) is not owned by the person listing it, nor is it in their possession.
I had a problem with one of these brokers when a card that was consigned to Goldin Auctions was listed on their web site for sale while my catalog was going to press! Apparently they had it listed there for several weeks before the consignor gave it to me, and I had to call them and my consignor to have it removed.
It is frustrating as hell, but these people try to insert themselves into a transaction without laying out any cash, without overhead and without the risk of carrying inventory. As long as they actually deliver what is sold, there is no legal issue. Many ( including me) may dislike the practice, but it is more common then you think especially on the card side , and not illegal unless they do not perform.

[Steeleraddict]

Well said. It's exactly like the car dealer that says, " yeah, I can get you that 2014 range rover." which he does not have on his lot. and takes your money. Paid, done deal. Now it's on him to deliver and complete the deal. Meet the criteria of the contract. Or else it's fraud. But not illegal if he finds you one.

[Takuleechch]

When you say outside the scope of this forum does that mean that no one here could have helped solved the problem?

[ChrisCavalier]

When you say outside the scope of this forum does that mean that no one here could have helped solved the problem?
No, I am saying trying to determine whether or not the stated motives of the buyer for returning the item were true was outside the scope of the administrators of this forum.

Please note the rationale for why that thread was closed has been explained already and is NOT the topic of this thread.

Thanks,
Chris

[Takuleechch]

WOW sorrryyy was just asking a question about your post on this thread

[Takuleechch]

Flipping items isn't new and isn't illegal. That from what I've been told that issue wasn't raised recently. People do it all the time
In fact I always see people on this forum offering "finders fees" to people who can find them an item which in a way could be considered the same thing

[Roady]

There are plenty of people in the marketplace who act as "brokers" which I do not believe is illegal. If an authority on legal matters has additional perspective, please feel free to provide that information.

-Chris
The only way I can see it being not illegal is if the original owner knows what is taking place and give his/her approval.
This isn't the stock market.

[Roady]

Well said. It's exactly like the car dealer that says, " yeah, I can get you that 2014 range rover." which he does not have on his lot. and takes your money. Paid, done deal. Now it's on him to deliver and complete the deal. Meet the criteria of the contract. Or else it's fraud. But not illegal if he finds you one.


You cannot sell another persons legal property to anyone else without their consent, period.

[Roady]

Fiipping is buying low and selling higher.

It is not selling goods that do not belong to you. That is fraud.

[Takuleechch]

You cannot sell another persons legal property to anyone else without their consent, period.

Ummm that's obvious and also not what I'm saying.
I'm saying it's not uncommon for people to find something they know someone wants and offer it around to flip. I've heard if people doing that all the time and it's not illegal.

[Takuleechch]

For example, I was looking for an item and posted a post a while ago in the items wanted page. A member emailed saying they could get me what I was looking for. They didn't own it but could get it. You really think they sold it to me for as much as they got it for? I doubt that very much. I have received a lot of emails saying peoples "friends" have this or can "get" that. It's pretty much the same thing they just disclose they don't personally have the item
The only thing illegal would have been if they didn't end up delivering the item. If I get the item I paid for from someone - as long as they obtain it legally - there is nothing illegal happening.

[emann]

The only way I can see it being not illegal is if the original owner knows what is taking place and give his/her approval.
This isn't the stock market.

+1.

This concept is new to me. Unbelievably shady if you don't either own the item or have an agreement with the person who does. There is flipping and there is acting as a broker, this is neither.

If you're just grabbing photos from an unknown seller's listing and then offering that item for sale—you're running a scam.

[Roady]

Ummm that's obvious and also not what I'm saying.
I'm saying it's not uncommon for people to find something they know someone wants and offer it around to flip. I've heard if people doing that all the time and it's not illegal.

Okay.
Let me clarify my feelings on this. Maybe I am not comprehending what some of you have written.
See if everyone agrees.

1. If I have a bat and you find someone who wants it for a higher price that is fine. As long as you do not sell it to that person before buying it from me first.

2. If you sell my bat before buying it from me, that is illegal.

3. It appears that the thread this is about that the "flipper" had an agreement from someone to buy a bat that someone else had for sale. Apparently after the "flipper" bought the bat his buyer backed out.
If he had not taken money from his buyer then he did nothing illegal.

4. Wanting to return the item to the original owner because his buyer backed out is simply immoral but not illegal.

[Takuleechch]

If you're just grabbing photos from an unknown seller's listing and then offering that item for sale—you're running a scam.

Yes I understand what you're saying. But if you receive the item you paid for how is it a scam?

I know that people have done this to me before, both ways, and there's nothing illegal as long as someone gets what they paid for. It may not be "right" but it's not "illegal"

[Roady]

To add to #4............It becomes illegal if the "flipper" accepted money for the item before purchasing it from the original seller. That would be considered theft of goods and fraud.

[Roady]

To add to #4............It becomes illegal if the "flipper" accepted money for the item before purchasing it from the original seller. That would be considered theft of goods and fraud.

I could be wrong about theft since the item was not stolen and delivered without compensation. The legal terminology could be argued but it would be harder to prove.
But fraud I believe is a strong case.

[Takuleechch]

To add to #4............It becomes illegal if the "flipper" accepted money for the item before purchasing it from the original seller. That would be considered theft of goods and fraud.

Not if the buyer receives the item. Just like the car analogy used. They take your money for something they don't own but get you.

Be careful with your posts - as Chris said this is thread is only about selling something you don't own

[Roady]

Not if the buyer receives the item. Just like the car analogy used. They take your money for something they don't own but get you.

Be careful with your posts - as Chris said this is thread is only about selling something you don't own

I appreciate the reminder. I was trying to be careful but maybe I can be more discreet about it.
Chris, If my post are in any violation please remove them or warn me or whatever you need to do.

[dangerzone79]

This is a great thread. I have had a few "brokered" deals done between myself & a couple other collectors over the last year. One person I deal with is a very well known forum member here, and he always lets me know that he does NOT have the item but he's acting as a middle man. It's assumed by me that he will do a mark up to make a profit, which is fine, but he's always up front about it. And on the other hand I did a deal recently with a former member that sent me pics, said it was a done deal, and he delayed for literally MONTHS in meeting me to deliver the bat. Turns out he didn't have it in his possession. There was a major misunderstanding between him & the person that actually had the bat. I would have appreciated him being up front in the 1st place. I eventually got the bat, but the terms had to be changed & I had to pay more than what was originally agreed upon. So my advice is maybe just ask the person you're dealing with if they have the item, or ask around other folks in the hobby about people's reputations. We all have each others backs hopefully.

[Takuleechch]

This is a great thread. I have had a few "brokered" deals done between myself & a couple other collectors over the last year. One person I deal with is a very well known forum member here, and he always lets me know that he does NOT have the item but he's acting as a middle man. It's assumed by me that he will do a mark up to make a profit, which is fine, but he's always up front about it. And on the other hand I did a deal recently with a former member that sent me pics, said it was a done deal, and he delayed for literally MONTHS in meeting me to deliver the bat. Turns out he didn't have it in his possession. There was a major misunderstanding between him & the person that actually had the bat. I would have appreciated him being up front in the 1st place. I eventually got the bat, but the terms had to be changed & I had to pay more than what was originally agreed upon. So my advice is maybe just ask the person you're dealing with if they have the item, or ask around other folks in the hobby about people's reputations. We all have each others backs hopefully.

Exactly. I had one time I was offered an item then saw it on eBay from a different person so finding out that way definitely rubs you the wrong way.

[Phil316]

I had a similar situation as well on craigslist. I was buying a few Seahawks gamers from current Seahawks players direct from a practice squad player. He never told me up front that he did not even have them yet. I assumed by the way he spoke to me that he did. The deal dragged on for a couple weeks. Last weekend we finally met up to do the deal and he did not deliver what was promised. I still got a few cool pieces but he told me that the team collected the jerseys before the player was able to tuck it away.

[ChrisCavalier]

For new collectors, I think the point about the seller's reputation is critical.

There are some "brokers" who are well known for shopping items with the consent of the current owner (usually someone who doesn't have the time and/or interest to try to find buyers for his/her items) and I personally would not hesitate to work with them if I were looking to buy a specific item.

On the other hand, unless the person has a solid reputation for being honest and can be verified through credible sources, I would be VERY reluctant to agree to purchase anything from someone, and especially send money to anyone, unless they physically have the item in their possession.

Again, please use caution and find out as much information up front before entering into any transaction.

-Chris

[emann]

Yes I understand what you're saying. But if you receive the item you paid for how is it a scam?

I know that people have done this to me before, both ways, and there's nothing illegal as long as someone gets what they paid for. It may not be "right" but it's not "illegal"

I have no idea if it is illegal, but the risk taken by the "seller" certainly makes it more than possible that the buyer won't receive an item. If you're offering something for sale you don't own, how can you be sure it will still be available when you find a buyer? It only works if the original seller knows you're doing this—then you're brokering a transaction. What has been described isn't that...

Maybe this is the root of all those ebay auctions we see ending and sellers backing out of transactions with an excuse? Some of them didn't have the item in the first place...

[ChrisCavalier]

I have no idea if it is illegal, but the risk taken by the "seller" certainly makes it more than possible that the buyer won't receive an item. If you're offering something for sale you don't own, how can you be sure it will still be available when you find a buyer? It only works if the original seller knows you're doing this—then you're brokering a transaction. What has been described isn't that...

Maybe this is the root of all those ebay auctions we see ending and sellers backing out of transactions with an excuse? Some of them didn't have the item in the first place...
Just to be clear, the typical scenario we are discussing is when the "broker" has the consent of the seller. I would NEVER enter into a transaction when the seller is offering an item they do not own nor does the owner know the seller is offering the item.

-Chris

[EricTheRed44]

Flipping items isn't new and isn't illegal. That from what I've been told that issue wasn't raised recently. People do it all the time
In fact I always see people on this forum offering "finders fees" to people who can find them an item which in a way could be considered the same thing

Thats not even remotely the same thing. You're just offering a little cash for someone to keep an eye out and you're the one doing it. The seller still gets their money and no one is handling it other than the seller and eventual buyer... no middle man. I see what you're saying, but theres nothing sketchy about someone offering a finders fee for items. Selling an item you dont have and posting pictures of it as if it were yours is wrong.

[Takuleechch]

Thats not even remotely the same thing. You're just offering a little cash for someone to keep an eye out and you're the one doing it. The seller still gets their money and no one is handling it other than the seller and eventual buyer... no middle man. I see what you're saying, but theres nothing sketchy about someone offering a finders fee for items. Selling an item you dont have and posting pictures of it as if it were yours is wrong.

So you think that when given the chance to get a $20 finders fee or being a middle man and getting a 200$ cut people are taking the $20?

This only becomes illegal when the buyer doesn't receive the item.

[Takuleechch]

Look, if I say hey guys I'm looking for a Lebron jersey and get a message saying "hey I can get you this Lebron jersey. Send me this much and I'll send you the jersey" as long as I get the jersey there's nothing illegal. The seller got his money, the "broker"/finder got his and I get the jersey.
The only time it becomes a legal issue is if I don't get the jersey.
People aka the seller may not like it if they find out but it's not illegal

[Takuleechch]

[QUOTE=emann;342797]I have no idea if it is illegal, but the risk taken by the "seller" certainly makes it more than possible that the buyer won't receive an item. If you're offering something for sale you don't own, how can you be sure it will still be available when you find a buyer? It only works if the original seller knows you're doing this—then you're brokering a transaction. What has been described isn't that...]/QUOTE]


If it isn't available then you send a refund right? Cause if you keep it then that's illegal.
I'm sure this happens quite frequently.

[emann]

Just to be clear, the typical scenario we are discussing is when the "broker" has the consent of the seller. I would NEVER enter into a transaction when the seller is offering an item they do not own nor does the owner know the seller is offering the item.

If you can look back, I do not believe the above is not what the deleted "fraud" post referenced... The thing here Chris is how would you ever know that the seller doesn't own the item?

What was essentially being described was say: seller 1 (the owner of the actual item) lists if for $500, then seller 2 just takes photos from that listing, without consent, and offers that same item, without taking possession or with consent, for $700. If he sells it for $700, he buys it from seller 1 for $500. Quick $200 profit without the risk of his own cash in a flip.

[Takuleechch]

If you can look back, I do not believe the above is not what the deleted "fraud" post referenced... The thing here Chris is how would you ever know that the seller doesn't own the item?

What was essentially being described was say: seller 1 (the owner of the actual item) lists if for $500, then seller 2 just takes photos from that listing, without consent, and offers that same item, without taking possession or with consent, for $700. If he sells it for $700, he buys it from seller 1 for $500. Quick $200 profit without the risk of his own cash in a flip.

There is nothing illegal in that.

[emann]

If it isn't available then you send a refund right? Cause if you keep it then that's illegal. I'm sure this happens quite frequently.

Right, they just tell you the item isn't available and refund the money.

BTW: Chris, this is why I expressed surprise and asked for additional occurrences in that original thread. I'd only heard of this happening once before and the person doing it was caught in mid-transaction (and it was a slightly altered scam).

It is unfortunate that the original thread degraded to the point you needed to remove it (understandably so).

[EricTheRed44]

Look, if I say hey guys I'm looking for a Lebron jersey and get a message saying "hey I can get you this Lebron jersey. Send me this much and I'll send you the jersey" as long as I get the jersey there's nothing illegal. The seller got his money, the "broker"/finder got his and I get the jersey.
The only time it becomes a legal issue is if I don't get the jersey.
People aka the seller may not like it if they find out but it's not illegal

From what it sounds like, people are talking about people who post photos claiming it is theirs to sell. If someone says I can get this for you its different. When you post photos or send photos to someone saying I have this and will sell it to you for 1400 AND they do not have it, that is lying. Dishonest. I have no issue if someone is up front and says they can get it for me, etc. But if you claim to have something in your possession and sell it to me WHILE you do not even own it, thats not something I believe should be done unless the buyer is aware.

[Takuleechch]

From what it sounds like, people are talking about people who post photos claiming it is theirs to sell. If someone says I can get this for you its different. When you post photos or send photos to someone saying I have this and will sell it to you for 1400 AND they do not have it, that is lying. Dishonest. I have no issue if someone is up front and says they can get it for me, etc. But if you claim to have something in your possession and sell it to me WHILE you do not even own it, thats not something I believe should be done unless the buyer is aware.

Yea I get it I think people are just oblivious to this happening as often as it does. I mean I've never asked the seller if they actually physical have the item in their possession at this present time before I've purchased something. I know that I've been offered things the person doesn't have and I know people have offered others things I have.
It may be wrong, dishonest, shady but at it's not illegal.

[EricTheRed44]

So you think that when given the chance to get a $20 finders fee or being a middle man and getting a 200$ cut people are taking the $20?

This only becomes illegal when the buyer doesn't receive the item.

I have no isse with someone buying something and flipping it. Thats business. But claiming you have an item and offering it for sale is a ____ move. If you want to make money more power to you, but if you're a dishonest prick who says you have something when you dont, I want nothing to do with you.

[EricTheRed44]

Yea I get it I think people are just oblivious to this happening as often as it does. I mean I've never asked the seller if they actually physical have the item in their possession at this present time before I've purchased something. I know that I've been offered things the person doesn't have and I know people have offered others things I have.
It may be wrong, dishonest, shady but at it's not illegal.

Agreed. I guess I'm just always aware or it is stated that the person has the item when they sell it to me. Too many mistakes can happen when multiple people are involved.

[PAC]

So I buy a high end jersey from you for a large sum of money...

You had spent several hours taking pictures, listing it on eBay, answering emails, carefully packaging it, driving to the post office, etc.

I receive the jersey exactly as described. I try my damnedest to flip it for a profit, after a couple weeks I can't find any takers, so I resort to lying a filing a PayPal claim, because I have buyer's remorse.

But that's a perfectly fine thing to do, and you wouldn't mind it at all, because it's not "illegal."

Got it. *rolls eyes*

[EricTheRed44]

So I buy a high end jersey from you for a large sum of money...

You had spent several hours taking pictures, listing it on eBay, answering emails, carefully packaging it, driving to the post office, etc.

I receive the jersey exactly as described. I try my damnedest to flip it for a profit, after a couple weeks I can't find any takers, so I resort to lying a filing a PayPal claim, because I have buyer's remorse.

But that's a perfectly fine thing to do, and you wouldn't mind it at all, because it's not "illegal."

Got it. *rolls eyes*

What he says.

[Takuleechch]

So I buy a high end jersey from you for a large sum of money...

You had spent several hours taking pictures, listing it on eBay, answering emails, carefully packaging it, driving to the post office, etc.

I receive the jersey exactly as described. I try my damnedest to flip it for a profit, after a couple weeks I can't find any takers, so I resort to lying a filing a PayPal claim, because I have buyer's remorse.

But that's a perfectly fine thing to do, and you wouldn't mind it at all, because it's not "illegal."

Got it. *rolls eyes*

Well first off - it's not illegal
Secondly - that's not what this thread is about

[Takuleechch]

If that is the scenario you are proposing then the lying to paypal part is fraud and illegal.
I think if you buy something to flip then you are responsible for the purchase you made and should man up and deal with it. But that scenario is not what this thread is about. So please don't insinuate that I'm ok with people lying to paypal because they couldn't flip an item

[emann]

Here is a posting from another forum (non-game used) outlining a similar scenario:

http://ask.metafilter.com/159556/Is-it-against-eBay-guidelines-to-sell-an-item-you-do-not-possess

[anythingdish]

Just wanted to say that on the last post someone used my name and I am not involved with who you are talking about. I did have the Murray jersey but people should not call out other people nor say anything about seeing a price somewhere else. If the person knew how much I paid they should have bought and profited. Im here to enjoy this great forum Chris has brought to us and Chris and I have talked numous time about me putting my stuff in his auctions. At the end of the day we all should respect what Chris has brought to us and not act like children. Thanks Chris for all you do. Michael

[1970REDS]

I remember the day when it was a good feeling to put a friend that wanted to sell in touch with a friend that wanted to buy with no monetary gain and you always knew your friends would do the same for you. If your friends are always looking for a way to make money off you they are not your friends . It is not illegal (against the law ) to sell something you do not own . I would bet the person doing it has very few friends that would help him. Greed is ugly ............ If something is not in your possession you need to be upfront about it and then the buyer can decide if the reward is worth the risk .

[jbsportstuff]

I remember the day when it was a good feeling to put a friend that wanted to sell in touch with a friend that wanted to buy with no monetary gain and you always knew your friends would do the same for you. If your friends are always looking for a way to make money off you they are not your friends . It is not illegal (against the law ) to sell something you do not own . I would bet the person doing it has very few friends that would help him. Greed is ugly ............ If something is not in your possession you need to be upfront about it and then the buyer can decide if the reward is worth the risk .
+1

[64SHEA]

I am not sure of the legality of selling an item you plan to buy and do not yet own, but as an amateur photographer I would think advertising an item without at least acknowledging the photos belonging to the owner could be considered copyright infringement.