NFL Game Used Collecting is in trouble [Archive]

Eric

12-01-2006, 07:29 PM

Hello everyone

I wanted to open up a dialogue here about the current state of the NFL game used market. I have deep concerns about where we are, and if something isn't done to correct the situation, I think it's going to continue to be a lawless wasteland.

Never have I seen so many jerseys by star players available on ebay, on dealer websites and in major auction houses with serious flaws- Patches sewn in thew wrong place, improper nameplate, no customizations.

These jerseys are going for thousands of dollars, and are actually worthless.

The consignors are profiting, the auction houses are profiting and whoever the genius is who is buying up all of these jerseys to pass around is making out like a bandit all based on people's inexperience in the hobby, lack of education or inability to get answers before bidding, and it's time that this come out in the open.

It has come to the point where I personally will not buy a current (post '97) NFL jersey unless I buy it directly from the NFL or a team website.

Everyone out there who has an auction house or website claims to have direct team connections, but for all of the people who claim that, it can't possibly be true.

In the case of Prosportsinvestments draft day titans jersey with nameplate- Rudy matched it thread for thread to a game cut which was sold by nfl auctions, so their claim of getting it from the team was a flat out mistruth.

I want the following questions answered. It can be here, or emailed ot me privately and your identity will be kept secret.

Where are these bogus star NFL jerseys coming from?

Who is getting them? How are they getting them? Who is profiting by them?

Who is doing the nameplate and patch sewing and lame customization attempts, and even fake repairs?

There are a few people who have singlehandedly ruined this part of the hobby, and it's time they paid for these injustices. Now, I have heard the rumors, and I have the suspicions of who is behind this but what we need are the facts. Someone has to know something and be willing to step forward, even privately to stop this. Do the right thing, because certain people are lying cheating and stealing and I'm sick of it.

I can be reached here or at ecky3@aol.com
Eric

JackHE

12-01-2006, 08:13 PM

Great topic - I am certainly no expert, however I guess the real problems began when the NFL Auction site began selling game-cut jerseys. I think that started after 9/11 to raise $$. The intention -however noble at the time really opened the door to all these bogus jerseys.

Nathan

12-01-2006, 11:10 PM

I don't think the problem began when the NFL started selling game cuts, I think it was the fact that they either didn't recognize or didn't care to recognize what the end result could be.

The NFL and the individual teams who sell jerseys need to do something to either accurately catalog everything that goes out the door (i.e. MeiGray) or add something to both game-used and game-issued alike. I'd have no problem with seeing a dye patch sublimated into a game-issued jersey to prevent occurrances like this. I'd have no problem with these all having jersey tags with a serial number that's catalogued by the NFL itself. The issue is the haphazard way the NFL does this, not the fact that GI jerseys are being sold.

Eric

12-01-2006, 11:46 PM

Nathan-

I agree that the NFL is party at fault for not marking their game issued jerseys in a way to differentiate them from game used.

However, I think there's a bigger problem. The NFL star jerseys that have been coming up in recent auctions have had details which suggest they did not come from NFL auctions- Such as

A game cut WITHOUT signature on the number- where did this come from?

Numerous Steelers and Patriots jerseys on the market- Both teams are very tight with letting their stuff go

Peyton Manning jerseys with the wrong sleeves- That means someone added the numbers and nameplate to a blank. How many of these have we seen? Who did this?

Patches being added in the wrong location

Incorrect nameplates
remember the shaun alexander asi jersey?
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1254&highlight=shaun+alexander

This is bigger than NFL auctions. There is doctoring going on here. (This goes for baseball too where tags are improperly sewn into collars- all with the wrong code)

Does anyone know if NFL game cuts can be ordered straight from Reebok the way gamer X-Bats could be ordered (can they still, or has that changed)?

Yes, the NFL is at fault for getting a certain amount of junk getting into the hobby with no tracking system, but there are people who are getting access to items similar to the real thing and then adding a patch here or there, or a repair here or there to add legitimacy.

It's ruining the hobby. Someone has to do something.
Eric

encinorick

12-02-2006, 12:24 AM

I think the problem is that with a few exceptions the teams and the players really don't care about this stuff. I'm constantly amazed at the level of interest and detail collectors have with this stuff, photo id's, stitches, alignment of numbers and letters, things like that. Everyone wants to make a buck and the players and teams will sell anything and say anything in order to do so. Even if you had a letter from Pete Rose or Joe DiMaggio would you believe them if they said that this glove or hat or jersey was game used? Most players don't know or care what they've used or didn't use and, if it is game used and important, they usually keep it for themselves. Today, players are given 5 or 6 jerseys per game to use, some like to give the extras to friends or the others less fortunate and say they are game used. A player will wear a jersey one or two times then get another, how can you tell by looking at it if it is game worn or not? And why would you believe a team if they said that certain items were game used? What's the proof? Why wouldn't they lie in order to make a buck? Let's face it, we are a weird group of people who believe in the purity of something that most don't care for or appreciate.

both-teams-played-hard

12-02-2006, 12:59 AM

Peyton Manning jerseys with the wrong sleeves- That means someone added the numbers and nameplate to a blank. How many of these have we seen? Who did this?

And also the wrong font used on nameplates... It seems the real villain is "the customizor" who is "restoring" blank jerseys and making a lineman's jersey into a QB's.... I would think logic says more than one person is responsible. There are probably many more who have jumped on this bandwagon...then jump on the ground and customize their "gamer".

Light, but typical QB use...

allstarsplus

12-02-2006, 11:19 AM

There are a few people who have singlehandedly ruined this part of the hobby, and it's time they paid for these injustices. Now, I have heard the rumors, and I have the suspicions of who is behind this but what we need are the facts. Someone has to know something and be willing to step forward, even privately to stop this. Do the right thing, because certain people are lying cheating and stealing and I'm sick of it.

I can be reached here or at ecky3@aol.com
Eric

Eric - Let's call it what it is--these injustices are generally criminal offenses. I spent my early years of my post-college life as a CPA with a special opportunity of working with special prosecutors with the garden variety white collar crimes of embezzlement and theft. The man hours to take one case to court is overwhelming.

I don't have any experience in Conspiracy to Defraud or Mail Fraud which I suspect are the criminal charges for what I think the "injustices" you talk about would actually be classified as and these are actually crimes punishable by imprisonment and/or monetary fines.

Yes, that is the sad state of affairs in game used items today. These people involved may not be putting guns to people's heads or robbing banks, but I believe they are still serious crimes.

I think too often these crooks may not realize that every time they knowingly buy a game issued jersey and roll it around in their back yard and sell it as game used are committing fraud and possibly other criminal offenses.

The Operation Bullpen investigation I believe began in 1997, and Post 9/11 investigations like this may not be a priority given the state of the world. I do believe that proving fraud in game used is easier than what Operation Bullpen did with the forgery cases.

SUMMARY OF CHARGES AND MAXIMUM PENALTIES

Conspiracy to Defraud the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

Tax Evasion in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7201. Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.
Filing False Tax Returns in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 7206(1). Maximum penalty is five years and/or $250,000 per count.

Mail Fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1341. Maximum penalty is thirty years and/or $1,000,000 fine per count.

Larceny in the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C.carries a maximum penalty of 20 years in prison and a fine of $250,000 or twice the aggregate loss to the victims or gain to the defendant.

richpick

12-02-2006, 12:06 PM

I believe that the first problem lies in the fact that it is easy for people to fake game used jerseys and items and then sell them. Just being a member of this forum gives GUU members a leg up on the average collector but what about the average joe who is buying for the first time or a wife buying a present for her husband they will believe what they are told. It reminds me of the day when the autograph market took off and you would go by a table and the dealer would have 25 Michael Jordan autographed 8 X 10's with his own COA. Only after a lot of people were ripped off and these crooked dealers made a ton of money was there intervention by the authorities and the media. Now, I believe the autograph market is better than the early 1990's. But, that was before eBay! eBay is the second problem and here is why:
1. It is easy for a dealer to list his fake GU items and sell them on to unsuspecting buyers
2. Ebay trusts that its feedback forum is the sole governing entity to protect its buyers and we have seen that people still buy from dealers with poor feedback.
3. It is easy for a person to have multiple accounts and build feedback up on small items before unloading GU stuff making them seem like a reputable seller.
4. Fraud is very hard to prove and eBay does not like to take sides or really get involved so it ends up being you vs. the seller.
5. Greed, eBay thrives on the fact that people are greedy. If someone lists a obvious suspect game-used item and a collector thinks that they are getting the item at a bargain some collector will buy it and since it is not legit the dealer still makes a profit and the collector gets burned.
Third, bad authenticaters and auction houses. There are many threads about this.

allstarsplus

12-02-2006, 12:49 PM

eBay is the second problem and here is why:

eBay is not the second problem. eBay has just been another facilitating portal to allow some crooks to sell on just like the big auction houses, dealer shows, card shows, flea markets etc.

I would guess almost every person on here buys/sells on eBay, and education is the key. Feedback Forum is great but certainly not to be 100% relied upon.

You are right that GUF has helped members on here.

If someone lists a obvious suspect game-used item and a collector thinks that they are getting the item at a bargain some collector will buy it and since it is not legit the dealer still makes a profit and the collector gets burned.

Caveat emptor. This is the problem we talk about all the time. Education is the key. I will say that sometimes an honest dealer doesn't realize they are selling a fake item, but when it isn't the exception but the rule than you really don't have an honest dealer---do we. I have seen dealers say "well I didn't know", but the sign of a good dealer will be to make things right.

richpick

12-02-2006, 02:19 PM

allstarsplus

12-02-2006, 03:12 PM

I am not saying that eBay is at fault but that they provide the portal for these crooks to reach the masses. Before eBay I doubt that there were as many of these crooks because they either had to sell at card shows or via catalogs. Ebay is great I sell on ebay, I buy on ebay, and I own ebay stock in my portfolio (not doing so well right now!) but I have faith. I do not blame ebay, you are right the answer is knowledge for collectors and reporting and prosecuting the crooks.

They don't publicize it, but do some Google searches for how many people are in jail for fraud on there. They probably aren't in the thousands but keep in mind that many prosecutors don't want to waste their time bringing these cases to trial as they are complicated and cover multiple venues.

We should all realize if eBay disappeared today there would be another internet site up in its place. Its not perfect, but what is?

kingjammy24

12-04-2006, 06:55 PM

eric,

are the issues on many of these jerseys the same? eg: they all typically use an incorrect font or they all typically place the nameplate in the wrong place? if so, these consistant errors may indicate that they're all coming from the same source.

as well, are any names consistantly coming up? you noted the ASI shaun alexander jersey. the auction was not stopped, the jersey was not removed. ASI is headed by brad wells. recently, many have commented on some questionable jerseys in historic auctions. historic auctions was created by brad wells. as well, it currently employs expert sports authentication which was also created by brad wells. it's been noted that PSI has sold several short-sleeved manning jerseys. PSI is headed by bernie gernay. bernie also authenticates for expert sports authentication which, oddly enough, has only authenticated for historic auctions. a big love triangle. in this thread ( http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=670 ) bernie was selling a short-sleeved manning which he then said he felt compelled to remove from auction due to the sleeve length specifically. in his words "I may only be 90% comfortable with the jersey being listed as such and if I am not 100% comfortable I can't put my name or my company name behind it." However, here's a short-sleeved manning jersey in the current historic auction http://www.historicauctions.com/search/list/auctionid/32925/ that is authenticated by bernie gernay. if he felt uncomfortable enough with his previous short-sleeved manning to remove it from his own auction and stated he couldn't put his name behind it, how can he turn around and put his name behind a similar short-sleeved manning?

eric, aren't the same names constantly coming up over and over?

lest we forget about this debacle:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1403

rudy.

jake33

12-05-2006, 09:19 AM

In some way i wished the NFl sold all their game used jerseys through their auction website. While this would flood the market, I would still like to see a tighter ran on this overall industry, as there really is no police for this hobby...

See with me, i only collect DeviL Rays and Buccaneers items and I check ebay 3-4 times a day and I keep a track record going back to 2001 on what has sold on ebay, including the ISSUED NFl auction jerseys, I caught someone selling an "issued jersey" a long time ago and they finally just ended the auction. I am well educated JUST on Bucs and Rays game used items so for other teams I have very little knowledge. I know a lot of collectors collect multiple teams which has to be extremely difficult to fully know every single team's polices and tagging for their jerseys, helmets, etc...

As long as this hobby exists there will always be problems. One of the biggest problems is buyers that look for everyone else to do the research for them. The best defense to this is do YOUR OWN homework on any item before buying (EVEN if it has a MLB COA or a COA from our buddy Mr. Lampson).

kingjammy24

12-05-2006, 05:46 PM

both psi and asi seem to have shaun alexander "gamers" with incorrect fonts. what are the odds?

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=3290

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8759773165

rudy.

scottanservitz

12-05-2006, 10:33 PM

I think Jake put it for all potential buyers to take to heart, DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK. I just love all the descriptions for Superstar QB jerseys for auction that state "Minimal wear is evident which is normal for QB's." Football is a violent sport that simply hammers equipment. Even qb's get hit and tugged and spit on etc. Sure, a lineman or linebacker jersey should be pounded. Even rb's take a fair share of abuse. Jerseys that are game used should show use. If you are looking at a star player, check Getty or Corbis. Teams play 8 home games and 8 away. If you know the year you should check all the pictures you can. Tears, rips, stains should be evident in some pictures. There are exceptions such as kickers and such, but there should be some chance at finding proof of use on jerseys and helmets. Obviously this takes time and effort, but when you do find proof it is the best guarantee a buyer can get. Better than the almighty LOA. The hard thing is actually getting to hold the piece and check it out. Bidding on auctions from pictures is tough. This is where the auction houses need to do some homework first. But when they list 100's of lots in auctions then this becomes very tedious. So in ending, anyone who trusts sellers that say little or nothing about use, then bidders are at the mercy of trust and luck. Just my two cents.
Happy Holidays to all!
Scott

Utopian2630

12-07-2006, 11:00 AM

gatorcollector

12-07-2006, 11:34 AM

I agree that there are serious issues in the hobby, but I feel like my specialization insulates me (not 100%) from a lot of the danger of fake jerseys. I collect game worn jerseys of former Florida Gators. I know there are fake Emmitts out there, probably some Jevon Kearse and Fred Taylor too. I can't afford them anyway, so I don't have to worry about buying a fake.
The ones I do buy are primarily the commons. Guys like Ernie Mills, Tony McCoy, Godfrey Myles, Jason Odom, etc. Let's be honest - who's going to take the time to fake a jersey of one of those guys? Which brings me to my question - is that a naive point of view? Realistically, should I be worried about possibly buying a fake of someone like Bobby McCray (Jags DE) or Cooper Carlisle (Broncos OL)?

Eric

12-07-2006, 11:51 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/1999-WASHINGTON-REDSKINS-TEAM-GAME-ISSUED-HOME-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ330050580886QQihZ014QQcategoryZ868 29QQcmdZViewItem

I wonder if things like this can explain the number of questionable NFL game used jerseys popping up on the market?

I'd say there's an 87% chance that the redskins jersey you point out here will surface in a future auction as a Peyton Manning game worn jersey which came from team sources and has typical qb use and no alterations.

timotswan

12-08-2006, 10:34 PM

To take some of what has been discussed a step fuether on some things I have learned in my short time in the game used collecting arena by getting burned myself and turning to some guys I consider experts in this forum and outside such as Jim Yackel, the game issued you discussed previously, I have learned that game cut ( which are typically isuued from nfl auctions) are even different than game cut. My understanding is game cut is just manufactrued by the manufactuer such as Reebok for nfl auctions where as game issued actually came from the team but just happened to not be used in a game it is ready for game use but for whatever reason never was worn in a game.

To me this is a difference because it would be more like a jereye the player would wear but just never made it into rotation for them to wear in a game, thus to me would actually have a better value than just a game cut, although the argument could be made neither were worn.

PLease correct me if someone knows more regarding this issue.

timotswan

12-08-2006, 10:47 PM

I need to calrify I meant my understanding is there is a difference between TEAM ISSUED and GAME CUT. Sorry for the confusion.

timotswan

12-08-2006, 11:43 PM

I feel I also should make clear that without Jim Yackel and others in this forum I would not know nealry as much as I do now. Jim especially, is an honest guy that helps this hobby and has helped me greatly and I thank him for that.

Eric

04-12-2007, 11:20 AM

Add the Winslow fiasco to this discussion. Personally, I'm having a hard time buying any football unless I know where it's coming from. A sad state of affairs.

Eric

scottanservitz

04-12-2007, 01:14 PM

Eric,
I totally agree with your assessment on NFL jerseys. I would love to pick up some of the numerous jerseys in auctions or eBay. Unfortunately I will not trust eBay for jerseys unless there is endeniable evidence of where the jersey came from. I am even skeptical about some of the auction houses. It depends on how well they present and prove the item. I own exactly two jerseys. One I have photo matched to Getty photos and a football card that I found. It is 100% matched. The other is tagged with the WETRACK system that some of the teams use for inventory. I believe it is PROVOTRACK now, but I could be mistaken. I know the jersey is real and from the team. Anyhow, I agree that if somebody wants to collect NFL pieces that they need to be very leary and do as much research as possible. There are reputable dealers that stand behind what they sell. There is NFL auctions, but even they have made mistakes. I think there are steps that the NFL can take as has been mentioned to better track their equipment. For the money some of these things are bringing in it is a must to help the hobby be a safer place to the collector. I hope something is done in the near future. Until then many a collector is going to spend big $ on worthless jerseys, helmets etc.

Scott

jayt1234

04-12-2007, 01:55 PM

If there is a rookie in the NFL how many game used jersey's could there be? I would think fewer than 10. The have been a ton of solicitations for game used for him but I just cannot imagine him using nearly as many that have been on sale out there. In fact there was a huge amount of his gold and black Adidas cleats out there as well, but fortunatley they were being sold only as issued and not game used. I would think the cleats below are legit considering you could not buy them, but who knows.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180092046713&rd=1&rd=1

Jay T

beavisrules

04-12-2007, 03:18 PM

I pretty much avoid most recent NFL jerseys (2004 to present) and any star jerseys because of the number of fakes available (I have seen an incredible number of "game issued" Manning jerseys on ebay), unless I buy it from a trusted source (like Jim Yackel or such). I collect more of the "common" players from the 1990s/early 2000s, because they are typically more affordable, and no one has as much of an incentive to fake them as such.

I haven't had nearly the trouble with college (Notre Dame) jerseys that people have had with NFL jerseys, but there have been several fakes or misrepresented jerseys on ebay over the years on these as well. Of course, it's easy for me to spot them, but not for the casual buyer/shopper. There was one last month that was "game worn" from the 90s - too bad it had sewn on numbers instead of screened, making it an obvious manufactured fake by someone who didn't do their homework.

Bottom line - it pays to do your research no matter what you are buying (or selling).

-beavisrules
always interested in Notre Dame memorabilia