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Soonerfan65
10-20-2013, 08:15 PM
Hey need some help on the value of a Pujols game used bat; I got it from a Heroes of Sport All Sport redemption and it comes with a PSA/DNA authentication letter. The letter states the following: Manufacturer: Tuff Bats (X) Model Number 24 Labeling Period 2003 Length 34 inches Weight 33.6 ounces Wood Maple Finish Standard
Details: uncracked, excellent use, Player number 5 on the knob and top barrel. The PSA/DNA authentication number is 1B05063. Thanks. john

Soonerfan65
10-20-2013, 08:31 PM
Oh boy after doing a quick search on here i'm afraid that the bat is not legit because It has the Dominican flag on the handle; info came from Birdbats so if anyone can point me in the right direction I would sure appreciate it. Thanks. John

spartanservitto
10-20-2013, 08:42 PM
Likely a store model. Sorry for the bad news.

You're likely going to spend anywhere from 1800-3500. Depending on provenance and characteristics.

This is my newest one which is MLB authenticated and photo matched to a home run , probably two of the more expensive traits.

Soonerfan65
10-20-2013, 08:57 PM
Ok thanks for the info.

rj_lucas
10-21-2013, 09:21 AM
From the website of Albert's charitable organization (see page 3):

http://www.pujolsfamilyfoundation.org/news/press-releases/2006/PujolsPrimer2006.pdf

There has been discussion in the past about PSA authenticated Pujols bats on this forum.

As the poster stated, his bat was authenticated by PSA. The results from the PSA database are shown below.

Review the results, then read the information from Albert's own website, and draw your own conclusions. An unfortunate situation for the poster, but hopefully others can learn from it.

Soonerfan65
10-21-2013, 12:59 PM
Can anyone link me to the discussion on the psa pujols bat discussion? Thsnks i will post pics tonight

Soonerfan65
10-21-2013, 06:18 PM
66715Here is the only pic I have at the moment; when I find my camera I will take better pics. There is red paint at the end of the barrel like there should be; cleat marks at various spots; very little pine tar but there is some there; blue transfer marks at various spots; the number 5 is written on both the bat knob and the barrel. I talked to John Taube tonight and he stands by his opinion that its real and he also told me he had never heard that the bats with the Dominican flags were not gamers and were just retail models. Thanks. John

spartanservitto
10-21-2013, 07:10 PM
Ehhh , I' don't know.

Soonerfan65
10-21-2013, 08:28 PM
Anyone feel free to chime in?

STLHAMMER32
10-21-2013, 08:46 PM
I'm not sure as to whether Pujols used an x bat with the Dominican flag, but other players did use the bats with flags on them....

Hoosier39
10-21-2013, 10:27 PM
If a bat is retail because of the flag, then I need to get rid of about five of my gamers.

PAC
10-21-2013, 10:34 PM
lol cleat marks and blue ink transfers do not mean it's authentic

anyone can hit a ball and bang on some cleats in their backyard

Pujols' people say he never used the bats with flags, so it's fake

Soonerfan65
10-22-2013, 06:44 AM
So can u point me to where Pujols people say he never used an x-bat with the flag on it? All i have seen is to be wary not that he never used one. Thanks

Misha
10-22-2013, 07:07 AM
From Sports Collector's Digest:

Game-used Bats

“X” Bats with Dominican Flag and Mizuno Bats: To put two of the biggest game-used Pujols bat myths to rest immediately, Todd Perry (executive director of the Pujols Family Foundation) has confirmed that Albert Pujols has never used a Mizuno bat or a “X” bat with the Dominican Flag above the handle in a major league game. According to Perry, “Albert said he did receive a batch of X bats with the Dominican Flag, but the entire unused batch was given to Mike Matheny” (presumably to auction for his Catch-22 Foundation). Only one photo of Pujols holding a Mizuno bat has been found, and it was a black model without his name on the barrel (before he broke in with the Cardinals in 2001).

- See more at: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/auction-news/the_game-used_albert_pujols_primer#sthash.tVCg27B4.dpuf

Soonerfan65
10-22-2013, 07:41 AM
Thank u thats exactly what i wanted to see. John

onlyalbert
10-22-2013, 02:36 PM
From Sports Collector's Digest:

Game-used Bats

“X” Bats with Dominican Flag and Mizuno Bats: To put two of the biggest game-used Pujols bat myths to rest immediately, Todd Perry (executive director of the Pujols Family Foundation) has confirmed that Albert Pujols has never used a Mizuno bat or a “X” bat with the Dominican Flag above the handle in a major league game. According to Perry, “Albert said he did receive a batch of X bats with the Dominican Flag, but the entire unused batch was given to Mike Matheny” (presumably to auction for his Catch-22 Foundation). Only one photo of Pujols holding a Mizuno bat has been found, and it was a black model without his name on the barrel (before he broke in with the Cardinals in 2001).

- See more at: http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/auction-news/the_game-used_albert_pujols_primer#sthash.tVCg27B4.dpuf

The statement about Pujols only using a black Mizuno is not entirely correct. I have a photo of him using a natual color Mizuno that was Ray Lankford's bat with Lankford's name on it in ST of 2001. The photo is not mine so I won't post it, but if the owner sees this and wants to post it he will. Just an FYI.

rj_lucas
10-22-2013, 03:54 PM
The statement about Pujols only using a black Mizuno is not entirely correct. I have a photo of him using a natual color Mizuno that was Ray Lankford's bat with Lankford's name on it in ST of 2001. The photo is not mine so I won't post it, but if the owner sees this and wants to post it he will. Just an FYI.

I think Todd Perry is referencing the fact that Albert has never used a Pujols branded Mizuno, which is what the fakes generally are. There's speculation that he also used a Mike Piazza branded Mizuno in 2001.

See this GUU thread from 2005:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/archive/index.php/t-682.html

You'll note that, as with the X Bat, PSA has authenticated Pujols branded Mizuno bats as used by him, despite Albert and his staff stating he has never used them. Appears to be a common theme emerging...

Soonerfan65
10-22-2013, 07:53 PM
I think Todd Perry is referencing the fact that Albert has never used a Pujols branded Mizuno, which is what the fakes generally are. There's speculation that he also used a Mike Piazza branded Mizuno in 2001.

See this GUU thread from 2005:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/archive/index.php/t-682.html

You'll note that, as with the X Bat, PSA has authenticated Pujols branded Mizuno bats as used by him, despite Albert and his staff stating he has never used them. Appears to be a common theme emerging...


Hence my dilemma; I really don't know what to think about this bat.

Hoosier39
10-22-2013, 09:05 PM
Sorry if someone already brought this up, but here is one that Bushing authenticated:

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auctions/AuctionItem?AuctionId=4148&t=&p=0

And another one, I think, that was graded a 4:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=48022&lotIdNo=1006

One more, even though it wasn't really authenticated:

http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7041&lotIdNo=377002

Hoosier39
10-22-2013, 09:13 PM
And I'm not saying anything is real or bogus, just giving examples

helf35
10-22-2013, 09:13 PM
Is it likely he could have used it some point during spring training?

rj_lucas
10-23-2013, 08:38 AM
Hence my dilemma; I really don't know what to think about this bat.

Albert and his people say these bats are fake. In 10+ years not one shred of evidence has been produced that Albert used a X Bat featuring a Dominican flag.

I don't understand your confusion. The bat is fake.

I suggest you contact John Taube of PSA directly (john@gameusedbats.com). As Chris Cavalier noted in a previous thread, John generally responds to emails.

If you receive a response, please post it here, as I know there are a number of collectors who would be interested in reading it.

plinvestments
10-23-2013, 10:17 AM
Albert and his people say these bats are fake. In 10+ years not one shred of evidence has been produced that Albert used a X Bat featuring a Dominican flag.

I don't understand your confusion. The bat is fake.

I suggest you contact John Taube of PSA directly (john@gameusedbats.com). As Chris Cavalier noted in a previous thread, John generally responds to emails.

If you receive a response, please post it here, as I know there are a number of collectors who would be interested in reading it.

Just to clarify your post, the bat is not fake. It seems like Pujols did order a batch of these bats and gave them to Matheny. They are pro model bats with use that cannot be attributed to Albert.

rj_lucas
10-23-2013, 11:19 AM
Just to clarify your post, the bat is not fake. It seems like Pujols did order a batch of these bats and gave them to Matheny. They are pro model bats with use that cannot be attributed to Albert.

If we define 'not fake' as meaning the wooden blank wasn't turned by Joe Schmoe on his garage lathe, then fair enough.

At the risk of splitting hairs, we don't know that these bats were ordered by Pujols. Todd Perry simply states they were 'received' by him. Entirely possible, in fact likely, they were sent to him as unsolicited samples.

Either way, I'm sure you'd agree it's quite a leap to get from there to an authentication letter stating the bat was used by Albert Pujols.

spartanservitto
10-23-2013, 05:34 PM
If I'm buying a pujols bat , I'm going with an autographed model with perfect characteristics or a bat sourced from Albert. Given the price it's definitely worth it for provenance, just my two cents.

-Tony

Soonerfan65
10-23-2013, 07:21 PM
Albert and his people say these bats are fake. In 10+ years not one shred of evidence has been produced that Albert used a X Bat featuring a Dominican flag.

I don't understand your confusion. The bat is fake.

I suggest you contact John Taube of PSA directly (john@gameusedbats.com). As Chris Cavalier noted in a previous thread, John generally responds to emails.

If you receive a response, please post it here, as I know there are a number of collectors who would be interested in reading it.

I have talked to John Taube on 2 different occasions and have been sending emails back and forth; I have also presented him with the information that the fine collectors of this forum have provided me and for that I thank all of you. I have also been in contact with Will at Heroes of Sports(where I obtained the bat-it was a redemption in their product) and he has assured me that he will make it right for me. Right now the ball is in John Taube's court as he is supposed to be doing more research on this item. At some point the bat may be sent back to him but right now I still have it.

Although I am not a baseball collector, I have collected cards and memorabilia on and off for over 20 years. Two things I have found out are that 1. Players are not always correct when authenticating their items. 2. 3rd party authenticators do make mistakes. I will update when I hear something back from John Taube.

Again I do thank you all for the input. John

Soonerfan65
10-23-2013, 07:24 PM
I should clarify that Will has told me that if the bat is no good that he will make it right for me even if that means buying the bat back from me. When he got it to put in their product it was already PSA authenticated.

Soonerfan65
10-23-2013, 07:28 PM
So that's 3 different bats and the one I got would make 4;how many of these Dominican Flag bats are out there? If it's true that Pujols never used these then how come so many authenticators are unaware of this? Shouldn't they be doing more research? This is turning into a nightmare

spartanservitto
10-23-2013, 08:57 PM
Never jump the gun on Albert bat, rule number one.

beachpetrol
10-23-2013, 09:12 PM
Never jump the gun on Albert bat, rule number one.
Ain't that the truth. Ask the Angels LOL.

Soonerfan65
10-24-2013, 10:00 AM
If Pujols is not using these bats then who is? Again how come the guys that do this for a living are not aware that these bats are not used by Albert? Taube told me he had never heard about the flag story before

rj_lucas
10-24-2013, 10:15 AM
If Pujols is not using these bats then who is? Again how come the guys that do this for a living are not aware that these bats are not used by Albert? Taube told me he had never heard about the flag story before

You just asked the two big questions we would all like answers to.

Examples of this bat being authenticated go back to 2002/2003. IMO, those authentications are forgivable and can be written off as mistakes, as there was a lack of information to draw from.

But as the information came out in 2005/2006/2007, it was readily available, including on Albert's own website.

Again, just my opinion, but any authentication of these bats after 2007 stating they were used by Pujols is inexcusable.

Soonerfan65
10-24-2013, 02:05 PM
Are there any authenticators that use this forum? Would love to get their take on this

MSpecht
10-24-2013, 02:40 PM
Below is the result of research conducted by forum member Jeff Scott (copyright 2010.) For a complete analysis of Pujols' professional game model bats, see the link below ...

"Be especially wary of X-Bats made prior to 2006 because the general public could purchase bats identical to those used by players. These retail bats had the flag of the Dominican Republic on the handle (pro bats did not have the flag). When you see these for sale as "gamers," the flag usually remains. If there is no flag, look for a rectangular void in the bat finish indicating where a flag may have been removed. X-Bats will be labeled "Model 24/Pro Maple 34" or "Model 13/Pro Maple 34" and should not have any kind of flag on the handle. "


---- Jeff Scott, BirdBats



http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Notes%20and%20Articles/Pujols%20bat%20buyers%20guide.htm (http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Notes%20and%20Articles/Pujols%20bat%20buyers%20guide.htm)

Mike

Hoosier39
10-24-2013, 02:53 PM
So does the flag on the bat resemble a retail, or is this just pertaining to Pujols bats?

Soonerfan65
10-24-2013, 05:15 PM
Below is the result of research conducted by forum member Jeff Scott (copyright 2010.) For a complete analysis of Pujols' professional game model bats, see the link below ...

"Be especially wary of X-Bats made prior to 2006 because the general public could purchase bats identical to those used by players. These retail bats had the flag of the Dominican Republic on the handle (pro bats did not have the flag). When you see these for sale as "gamers," the flag usually remains. If there is no flag, look for a rectangular void in the bat finish indicating where a flag may have been removed. X-Bats will be labeled "Model 24/Pro Maple 34" or "Model 13/Pro Maple 34" and should not have any kind of flag on the handle. "


---- Jeff Scott, BirdBats



http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Notes%20and%20Articles/Pujols%20bat%20buyers%20guide.htm (http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Notes%20and%20Articles/Pujols%20bat%20buyers%20guide.htm)

Mike

Thanks Mike but the lingering question that still bothers me is who used all these x-bats with the flags on the handle if Pujols did not use them? How do you explain the red paint on the end of the barrel from the bat rack? If this isn't a gamer then its one damn good fake

Hoosier39
10-24-2013, 06:10 PM
Thanks Mike but the lingering question that still bothers me is who used all these x-bats with the flags on the handle if Pujols did not use them? How do you explain the red paint on the end of the barrel from the bat rack? If this isn't a gamer then its one damn good fake

Well, the questions you are asking now can be asked for any game used bat...

PAC
10-24-2013, 08:22 PM
Thanks Mike but the lingering question that still bothers me is who used all these x-bats with the flags on the handle if Pujols did not use them? How do you explain the red paint on the end of the barrel from the bat rack? If this isn't a gamer then its one damn good fake

Anybody with a ball, a pair of cleats, a sharpie, and some red paint.

So, let's see, that narrows the suspect list down to about 500 million people.

Steeleraddict
10-24-2013, 08:31 PM
Spartanservitto is right on with his prices. It seems I've paid exactly that price range.

Soonerfan65
10-27-2013, 07:39 PM
Ok I have been in contact with Taube regarding this bat and have also forwarded on some info I have received from emails on this bat. This is what he sent me today. "Our LOA confirms the bat as a pro model 'used' by Pujols. Use could be batting practice. We do not confirm game use."

There is more in the email on the subject of X-Bats but this is the gist of what he sent me. He also floated out there the question of whether BP was included in the statement that he never used an X-Bat with the flag.

Please do not turn this into a bashing thread; if you have anything you can add please do but keep it nice. Thank you.

John

rj_lucas
10-27-2013, 09:55 PM
John, thanks for sharing the email from PSA. Interesting response.

Not sure there's anywhere else to go with this. One one side, you have the player stating the bat was not used by him. On the other side, you have an authenticator stating it was.

I think at this point people can choose who they want to believe and leave it at that.

Soonerfan65
10-28-2013, 06:43 PM
John, thanks for sharing the email from PSA. Interesting response.

Not sure there's anywhere else to go with this. One one side, you have the player stating the bat was not used by him. On the other side, you have an authenticator stating it was.

I think at this point people can choose who they want to believe and leave it at that.

Yeah that's kinda what it seems like doesn't it?