What is wrong with this hobby.

[greg678]

Newbie and I am throwing this out there from a "new guy" perspective. This is not directed at people on the Universe sight, you guys seen alittle smarter and do more work than the average game used collector off the street.
Not saying I am right, but these are the things that are strange to me about the hobby. Please show me the light if I am off.

First- the "expert authenticators" seem to verify the jersey tags and labels (mabey they measure it, doubt it), see a little wear and say game worn. Why don't they spend hours looking for photo matches on them to prove this? Don't want to tell a client they can't prove game use? Lazy?
Second- auction houses authenticating the items that go into their own auctions is wrong! Unless it is from a player they are working with or have good record of where it came from- they usually don't. 3rd party at least guys, Cmon buyers- do you just accept this?
Third- alot of dealers just say "game used" on items and don't mention any info on the item yet ask 4 digits or more for the items! Do buyers just accept this?
Forth-Nobody will ever say "I thought it was game worn, but it is not.". This means that anything that was sold as game worn would always be defended as such. Peoples egos and money get in the way.
Last thing- there must be alot of wealthy, lazy buyers who do not want to find out any infomation on the items they have or will buy and just accept these low standards of "the seller just told me it was game worn". Photomatching is work, so get to it! Uniform and bat research not fun, but feels good when you get one.

Put it this way if a seller had to go to court to prove the item is real, how would they do? Serious.

I own 2 jerseys and both I got from the team and the Bret Saberhagen scp auction and both are photomatched. I use you guys knowledge on Game Used Universe with info about items. You guys are awsome. I am setting high standards from the knowledge I learned from you guys here on the forum and I am thankful I found the site before I bought an item I regretted.
I know I will be ok, with my verification and matching and research. It just is weird to me that alot of sellers and buyers do not do their homework before a transaction. What they don't know will hurt them, if not now some day.
Thanks To all the Gamers on the forum for kepping the hobby clean!
And don't be a game worn dreamer photomatch and research it and make your dream a reality!
Greg

[Nnunnari]

Well said Greg and welcome to the hobby.

Authenticators can be understaffed and overwhelmed as there are only so many hours in a day. Just think about how many bats and jerseys have popped up in auctions since the beginning of this year, let a lone all of the private submissions. This is not an excuse for a non-thorough authentication however, just the reality of it. There should be many, many more authentications deemed "inconclusive" instead of "pass".
The authentication process should also be 100% anonymous as far as who has submitted that particular item, this is the only way to somewhat guarantee an objective opinion. Whether authenticators will admit it or not, when you know who you are authenticating/grading an item for, your opinion will be swayed one way or another.

As always, do your own homework.

[Jags Fan Dan]

The problem with photo matching is it can be difficult and often times impossible, as many jerseys just don't have distinguishable enough use showing as to be fully photo matched. Often the best you can do is style match and make sure the size, tagging, and other aspects of the piece match up. I agree, photo matching is ideal, but if you limit yourself only to photo matched items it may be a rough and slow go on finding new addditions.

[TwinLakesPark]

I own 2 jerseys and both I got from the team and the Bret Saberhagen scp auction and both are photomatched.
Greg

Which Saberhagen did you get in the SCP auction? I was after the no hitter jersey and let it go! Would love to see some pictures of the photo match.

[greg678]

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/72342910-jun-1998-mo-vaughn-of-the-boston-red-sox-in-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=OCUJ5gVf7YdJQI2Xhkc2QMT7O4PEx9dgIhs9VWu3CWqISv9m l6S3lHECBEex6uJ1

http://catalog.scpauctions.com/LotImages/25/0103CSpring2013_med.jpeg

Here is the Mo Vaughn Jersey I won. I hope the pictures work.

The button, which is a dead give away, made this an easy match. All players should color code their buttons.
Is this one of the easiest Red Sox matches ever?:)
I agree with the "do your homework" part. It is just weird when you are and you get the feeling that so many people are not.
Also when you have high standards, you are right, you will have a lot less items that could go in your collection. I like the hunt, which can be rewarding and frustrating though.
Thanks guys. I like collecting and Game Used Universe is a great resource and has good people on it.

[coxfan]

You all are making excellent points, and I'll add another. I've seen too many cases of where dealers at shops and shows made little if any effort to get what info is available on an item when they buy it from someone else. Thus, even much of the info that is known, is lost through the chain of buyers and sellers.

An example: I recently looked at a ball at a show that was autographed, and the seller said it was "probably game-used" from its appearance. It happened that the dealer he'd bought it from was at the next table, and he told me more about its history (eg that it was from a Vero Beach Dodger Spring training, details which the guy who now owned it hadn't even asked about.) That extra info allowed me to better assess what it was; so why didn't the dealer who bought it bother to ascertain and note this extra info?

I'll repeat a suggestion I've made before: Dealers should use an ordinary word-processor to record what they know about an item when they buy it. Then, instead of a meaningless COA, they could print out the actual info on the item's history, to the extent of what they know about it. This procedure's very easy; I do it for my own records and memory whenever I buy something.

[esquiresports]

I'll try to address most of your points, but generally agree with your desire to undertake personal due diligence. However, I think you see a lot of laziness where I would characterize it as something else.

1. Authenticators and effort. I think when you say authenticators you are referring to those at the auction houses. For a nice fee, Mears will undertake the type of analysis you suggest. But for auction houses, there is a cost-benefit analysis. It wouldn't make financial sense to spend hours to authenticate a $500-2000 jersey. It is not laziness. Any seller should know that the more documentation that can be provided, the higher the price that will be realized. For example, you will see huge price fluctuations for Nolan Ryan Astros and Rangers jerseys based on documentation (because so many are not legitimate). A seller has a self-interest to investigate, but there are practical limitations I discuss below.

2. Auction houses selling their own items they self-authenticate. Which auction houses are you speaking of? I only know one that does this, and they list out the lots where they have an interest.

3. Why are buyers lazy/so trusting? Again, it's a question of investing personal time, which could be significant and result in nothing to show for it. I always try to photo-match jerseys I am interested in, which come mostly from the 70s and 80s. Of the four jerseys I have from the 1970s-1990s, I was able to definitively photo-match only one. Close on a second, but I think I have just convinced myself. I continue looking at every eBay photo that pops up and run updated Google searches. There are so few high resolution photos of players in the 70s, 80s and even early 90s. Take for example the 1994 Bo Jackson Angels jersey in the SCP auction from Saberhagen. I looked all over for photos. Not just Google, but AP, Getty, eBay photo auctions (a good resource, by the way), press photos, sport-dedicated sites, baseball cards, etc. Not one decent shot. And that's 1994 and a notable player. When I was looking for photos of the Garvey bat, I could only find three that have any sort of resolution to them. The TV footage is pretty horrible.

Finally, there's the question of what is a photo match and what is a style match. If your photo match is just the button, that may be more of a style match (particularly if he did this to all his jerseys). I look for marks, threads, spacing, logo wrinkles, etc. that are truly unique to a single particular jersey.

One reason I feel good about the work I do in researching items is that if I ever go to sell any of them, I will be armed with some compelling information for the buyer.

[greg678]

Hey Esquire Sports

Some Good Points you made- anything under say $2000 minimum is not worth a authenticators time for someone to pay them. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of 4 figure jerseys flying around the market with little background info.
I noticed the latest Heritage Auction had a LOA in house on a bunch of Red Sox jerseys.

You collect older jerseys and you are right, photo matching an 80's or before jersey can be difficult. One advantage may be they did not switch out jerseys out as much, like the do today.

Photo matching - I agree I look at all the things you mentioned. The button just made it easier after everything else checked out + it came from a former Cy young winning teammate. As a general 99% rule if I look once and mabey see a difference, if I double check I will definately see a difference.

I am keeping record of all my purchases, MLB authentication, Photomatch, Auction catalog picture of item, receipts of purchase, etc.. Good info for next purchaser (not selling anytime soon) .

I just thought it up but I will go back to "If you brought your jersey or bat to court and had to prove it was game used, how would you do?"
You sound like you buy and sell with confidence. Happy hunting.;)

[esquiresports]

Thanks! I wish you the best of luck as well.

I had no idea what I was doing or could do before I came to this forum. I owe a ton to everyone on here who has helped me learn. I'm still a beginner with a lot to learn. The auction items forum has been a great resource.

I try to buy with confidence because I don't want to throw my money away. I also don't want to end up looking like a sucker. That's good motivation. And I enjoy playing detective. I own a couple items that I haven't be able to really prove out, so I'm not 100% confident, but I try to do all that I can. Fortunately I haven't found anything to make me less confident!

[greg678]

Bret Saberhagen scp auction

I meant from the Saberhagen collection - Mo Vaughn. The 80's and 90's Royals jerseys of his did really well.