Mickey Mantle Used Bat

[sammy]

In the current Vintage Authentics auction there is a Mickey Mantle coach's bat, Lot 99.

Description:

Blonde H&B Louisville Slugger K55 signature model bat used by 500 HR Club icon Mickey Mantle most likely during Spring Training circa 1973-75 while working as a coach for the New York Yankees. The bat perfectly matches known player shipments to Mantle in February of 1974. It measures 33 oz and 35" exhibiting significant game use throughout with medium ball surface stitch, and rack marks across the barrel's surface with nice deep factory stampings. The handle remains intact with Mickey's #7 faded across the knob. This bat with nice use associated with coaching/instruction earns a final authentic grade of 7 overall.

According to the MEARS LOO, on 2-25-74 Mantle ordered K-55 model bats that weighed 37 oz and were 35" in lenght.

Two things.

How does this bat perfectly match known player shipments to Mantle in February of 1974 as stated in the auction?

Mantle ordered 37 oz bats and the one on auction weights in at 33 oz?

I seriously doubt this bat lost 4 ozs of weight in 22 years.

Do you think that is likely?

[JimCaravello]

Hi Sammy - Mantle only had one bat order in 1974. There was an order for one ( 1 ) Old Timer's bat - M110 model that was 35" long and 31 ounces. I have reviewed the bat you have questioned in Vintage Authentics auction. The MEARS cert is in conflict with itself and is wrong.

Let's start with Mantle's factory records first. There is not an order in February of 1974 for 35" and 37 ounce K55 bats. My copy of Mantle's Factory Records clearly show only the one order for Mantle bats in 1974 mentioned above. There is an order on February 25, 1971 for K55 model bats - 35" and 37 ounces - Four ( 4 ) bats were ordered. It appears that MEARS has confused 1971 with 1974.

Secondly - on the MEARS Cert - it clearly states the bat in auction is 35" and 33 ounces and does not match anything listed for Mantle in the 1973 - 1975 labeling period in his records. During the 73-75 labeling period, Mantle had only the one order in 1974 mentioned above.

The bat in question doesn't come close to matching the order from 1971 because of the four ounce weight differential - but then again, the bat in question is a 1973 - 1975 label bat and thus the MEARS cert is wrong and in conflict with itself.

To answer your question about weight loss ( and there are varying opinions on this ) - there is no way a bat from this labeling period loses four ounces. I don't care what any authenticator or bat expert tells you.......

This is truly sloppy work by the authenticator - not only is it sloppy, but its wrong and is negligent. The opening bid for this bat at $1,000 is ridiculous and there is already one bid.

On top of this, I have not seen this bat in person - but the grain and the quality of the wood do not resemble professional grade ash. I could be wrong on this, but from the pics, the bat looks very "storish model" or "promotional" to me. That's my opinion - not a fact. I would want to inspect this bat in person to give a final judgement on that comment - but nonetheless, MEARS has incorrectly graded and certified to the authenticity of this bat matching factory records and graded it A7 which is a travesty.

If I can be of further assistance, please let me know. Thanks, Jim

[Steve Jensen]

I just spoke with Troy Kinunen at MEARS and he confirmed the Mantle bat order based on the records he has in his possession. He pulled them and read them to me over the phone. The order was hand written and he said the only thing in question is wether the 2 (representing the month of February) could possibly be an 8 (august) because it somewhat sloppy writing. That had no bearing on their grading of the bat. MEARS stands behing there findings on this bat 100%. Any further questions, please feel free to contact MEARS directly as we will be supporting their findings on this bat. The LOA is posted on our website.

Best Regards,
Steve

www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)

[eGameUsed]

Jime and Steve,

At first when I saw this bat I was interested in picking it up. However, Jim points out some good aspects. Even if Jim does not have "complete" records, the COO still states the bat is 33 ounces and the records indicate 37 ounces. Do I need to e-mail MEARS to see if they are going to make any applicable corrections or is that the responsibility of the auction house to ensure items are accurately represented?

A note on e-mailing MEARS, Troy has e-mailed me several times asking my opinion of Astros items, which I have replied to ever time with information I have collected over the years. He has never responded to my questions or even replied with a coutersy "Thanks!" I find it pointless to e-mail them.

Thanks,

[sammy]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply.

I see that Steve from VA has replied too.

I agree with you in regard to the weigh loss.

There is no normal way for a 23+/- year old bat to lose 4 oz

Are there more then one set of records for Mantle bats, or what?

[Birdbats]

Here's a photo of the record entries in question:

http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Mantle.JPG
It's clear the last order was placed in 1974, but I honestly can't read the date above it when the four 35", 37 oz. K55 bats were ordered. Troy says it's 1974, Jim says it's 1971. All that's certain is that the bat dates to the 1973-75 era, it's a K55 model, and it weighs 4 ounces less than the only recorded order of K55 bats placed after 1970.

If Jim is right, the bat at auction wasn't ordered for Mantle. If Troy is right, the bat somehow lost 4 ounces. Or, maybe that 37-ounce entry is supposed to be 32 ounces (a commonly ordered weight, per the records) and the tail on the two was too light to show up in copies.

Who knows? You be the judge.

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com

[JimCaravello]

Hi Jeff - please look at my scan. It is clear that the record scan you posted has been copied several times and has blurred over time. If you look at my record, it is clear this K55 order is from February 25, 1971. In addition, it is clear that the order was for 37 ounce bats. The weight differential should have been the first clue the authenticator should have used to dig into this record deeper to see if it was correct. A loss of four ounces on a 73-75 bat is a lot - and I think even MEARS would agree to that. Also - the bat is not a perfect match to Factory Records even if the order was from 1974, which it is not.

If MEARS is using the example you have posted, then I could see where they could have made a mistake. If they are using a copy as clear as mine, then they made a mistake. There is no way you can interpret my K55 record other than from 1971. My records came directly from Karen Devoto at Louisville Slugger and was not copied several times.

Thanks, Jim

[ChrisCavalier]

Hi Jeff - please look at my scan. It is clear that the record scan you posted has been copied several times and has blurred over time. If you look at my record, it is clear this K55 order is from February 25, 1971.

There is no way you can interpret my K55 record other than from 1971. My records came directly from Karen Devoto at Louisville Slugger and was not copied several times.

Thanks, Jim
I have two comments to make here. One is regarding the factory records and the other relates to the auction description.

1) Regarding the factory records:

Over the past year I have personally acquired copies of a number of the Louisville Slugger records including those of Mickey Mantle. Notably, the copies I have are similar to Jim's and have not been copied numerous times. With that said, it seems very clear to me that the K55 orders are from 1971, not 1974. I would also have to say that Jim and I are not the only ones who feel this way. If you look at Vince Malta's charts in the "Bat Player Charts" section of the GUU site you will see the following line under "Post Career" orders (according to the charts, the (4) K55 35"/37 oz. bats were ordered by Mantle in 1971):

Post-career: 1969- 24-M110 35”/32.oz., 12-P104 35”/32oz., 12-Mc13 34”/33 oz., 1970- 12-M110 35”/31 & 32 oz., 1971- 4-K55 35”/37 oz.

In addition, when looking at the big picture, it certainly seems more logical that, when you remove the noted “Old Timers Day” order from the equation (that order was intended for something other than a coaches bat), the chronological sequence of ordering bats in 1969, 1970 and 1971 makes more sense than him ordering bats in 1969, 1970 and then 1974 (thereby skipping 1971, 1972 and 1973). The 1971 order also seems more logical given his stint as a first base coach in 1970.

Please note that I am not saying this was done intentionally. In fact, if the copies of the records being looked at by the authenticator were more similar to those posted by Jeff Scott than the ones posted by Jim Caravello then it may help explain the discrepancy. However, when everything now known is considered, I think it is hard to refute that this additional information indeed has a tremendous impact on the perceived probability of this being a genuine Mantle coaches bat as the "7" grade would suggest.

2) Regarding the auction description:

I am actually at a loss about the statement in the auction description that "The bat perfectly matches known player shipments to Mantle in February of 1974. It measures 33 oz and 35"...". Although I think the new information provided about the records shows the LOA is likely mistaken regarding when Mantle placed the order, the LOA comments section does say the K55 order was for 37 ounce bats.

My question is this, even if you overlook the error in the date of the order, how can Vintage Authentics possibly state "The bat perfectly matches known player shipments to Mantle" when this bat is 4 ounces lighter than the presumed order on record as stated in the LOA?

Does anyone else feel that statement in the auction description is justified? Personally, I just don’t see it.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[sammy]

VA has removed the statement that this bat "perfectly matches known player shipments to Mantle in February of 1974".

The final Grade has not changed and remains an A 7.

Current Description:

Blonde H&B Louisville Slugger K55 signature model bat used by 500 HR Club icon Mickey Mantle most likely during Spring Training circa 1973-75 while working as a coach for the New York Yankees. The bat matches known characteristics for Mickey Mantle coaches bats with a key feature being the faded #7 on the knob. While not found in Mantle's personal ordering records, it does measure appropriately at 33 oz and 35" and exhibits significant game use throughout with medium ball, surface stitch, and rack marks across the barrel's surface with nice deep factory stampings. The handle remains intact with Mickey's #7 faded across the knob. This bat has nice use and is associated with his coaching/instruction era after the Mick's playing career. It earns a final authentic grade of 7 overall.

[Steve Jensen]

Thanks for the updated and visual info regarding the Mantle post career bat. We spoke with MEARS yesterday afternoon about this. We have decided to remove all mention of the bat "perfectly matching personal ordering records regarding this bat" This is our updated description on our website:

Lot 99
Blonde H&B Louisville Slugger K55 signature model bat used by 500 HR Club icon Mickey Mantle most likely during Spring Training circa 1973-75 while working as a coach for the New York Yankees. The bat matches known player characteristics for Mickey Mantle coaches bats with a key feature being the faded #7 on the knob. It measures 33 oz and 35" exhibiting significant game use throughout with medium ball surface stitch, and rack marks across the barrel's surface with nice deep factory stampings. The handle remains intact with Mickey's #7 faded across the knob. This bat with nice use associated with coaching/instruction earns a final authentic grade of 7 overall.

MEARS has assured us that based on their grading standard, this bat remians an A7 due to the fact that the 35 inch, 33 ounce bat was the bat he predominantly used post career. The 37 oz. bat was definitely and unusual order for the Mick and serves as the exception. The bat can not be pinpointed to a specific documneted record but it definitely falls within the length & weight requirements for Mantle. We have notified the current bidder of the update to this lot and will be monitioring future bids to do the same.

Best Regards,
Steve
www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)

[ChrisCavalier]

MEARS has assured us that based on their grading standard, this bat remians an A7 due to the fact that the 35 inch, 33 ounce bat was the bat he predominantly used post career. The 37 oz. bat was definitely and unusual order for the Mick and serves as the exception. The bat can not be pinpointed to a specific documneted record but it definitely falls within the length & weight requirements for Mantle. We have notified the current bidder of the update to this lot and will be monitioring future bids to do the same.
Hello Steve,

I have two questions for you:

1) In the current LOA, under the "Manufacturer Characteristics" there is a line entitled "Matches factory records". On that line the LOA says "Yes". Given what we have now seen regarding the actual factory records, do you believe this bat matches those records?

2) Given your statement above that "The bat can not be pinpointed to a specific documented record but it definitely falls within the length & weight requirements for Mantle", I assume you are acknowledging there is no record of Mantle ordering a K55 bat in the 1973-75 label period. If so, do you not think this is relevant information for a potential buyer to know? Specifically, why does your auction description not disclose that there is no record of Mantle ordering this bat? Do you not think this is especially relevant given the LOA mistakenly claims the bat "matches factory records"?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

[Steve Jensen]

Chris-

1. Matches factory records means that the bat matches known length and weight for Mantle bats. ie. all other post career records show mantle ordering 35 inch 33 ounce bats give or take 1/2 inch or ounce. The 37 ounce bat order was an isolated example and definitelt not the norm.

2. This is how the description now reads on our website: "While not found in Mantle's personal ordering records, it does measure appropriately at 33 oz and 35" and exhibits significant game use throughout with medium ball, surface stitch, and rack marks across the barrel's surface with nice deep factory stampings." I believe this address the "acknowledgement" issue.

The bat does match all other records but can not be pinpointed to a specific order. Based on MEARS criteria, a bat does not need to be traced to a specific order to earn a grade of A7. It needs to match known exemplars/records which this one does.

Best,
Steve

www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)

[Steve Jensen]

Chris- MEARS is also in the process of issuing a new cert removing mention of the bat being in Mantles bat order records in the comment section. It will still state "yes" under "matches factory records."

Best,
Steve
www.vintageauthentics.com (http://www.vintageauthentics.com)

[sammy]

Steve,

You should have MEARS remove from the "Comments" section the part stating:

LS factory records show that Mantle ordered 35", 37 oz, K55 model bats on 2-25-74.

Totally irrelevant to this bat.

[Steve Jensen]

Yes- They are doing that and re-issuing a new LOA.

[ChrisCavalier]

Chris- MEARS is also in the process of issuing a new cert removing mention of the bat being in Mantles bat order records in the comment section. It will still state "yes" under "matches factory records."
Hello Steve,

You have stated in a previous post that "Ultimately, the responsibility lies with us as an auction house to provide quality and authentic merchandise and we are 100% committed to doing so." If that is true, I have some questions for you. You have acknowledged in your quote above that there is no record of this bat in Mantle's documented shipping records. In addition, K55 bats are very well known (and documented) to be a pro stock model for Mantle meaning they could have been ordered by the Yankees, other players, other teams, promotional replicas, etc. Given these facts, how can you possibly sell this bat representing it as "matching factory records" for Mantle with a 7 grade?

I have spoken to numerous knowledgeable bat collectors and every single one believes "matching factory records" means a specific order can be found on the player's shipping record card during the specific labeling period which matches the model, length, weight, and finish of the subject bat. Are you now offering bats in your auction that represent a new definition for "matching factory records"? According to your auction description (along with the claim that this bat "matches factory records"), any 35 inch, 33 ounce Mantle bat in existence can be said to "match factory records" regardless of whether there is a specific order for the specific model during a specified labeling period or not, including pro stock models. This would certainly be news to the bat collectors I have spoken to and I think we would all be interested in knowing how, and when, such a change took place.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,
Chris

[Eric]

Chris-

Good question. Also a good question for the folks at mears. What is the definition of "Matches Factory Records?"

I'll post it.

Eric

[Eric]

I posted this yesterday and am waiting for the response...

Definition of "Matches Factory Records?"

November 15 2006 at 12:09 PM Eric Stangel (ecky3@aol.com) Eric Stangel (Login EricStangel (http://www.network54.com/Profile/EricStangel))Hello-

Maybe this has been addressed, if so I apologize for the repeat but...

Could you give your definition of "Matches Factory Records?"

Does it have to do with a single bat order, or a general look at a player's orders over his career, or even the perspective of what other players order during an era.

Thanks
Eric Stangel

[JimCaravello]

Eric - Steve Jensen mentioned on one of his posts that they would be contacting the high bidder with the changes. The bat is still at $1,000 in the auction.

So I guess the high bidder doesn't care that this bat does not match factory records? This bat and thread are very interesting to me.


A COA is proven to be wrong as the bat does not match factory records ( whether it was intentional or just a mistake doesn't really matter as that is irrelevant ) -
the auction house changes the description to state that the bat matches known examples of bats ( even though this K55 bat could have been ordered by anyone ) -
the grading company sticks to the A7 grade -
and the auction company and authenticator sleep at night knowing all these facts??........
AND - I still feel the wood quality of the bat looks "promotional" or "store model quality" to me........I am at a loss for words - I have seen everything now......This means that Factory Records are irrelevant to the authenticator and auction company - fascinating as Mr. Spock would say........

It will be interesting to see if they respond.....Jim

[JimCaravello]

Eric - here is something else I find quite comical. See Jensen's comments from an earlier post below:

"MEARS has assured us that based on their grading standard, this bat remains an A7 due to the fact that the 35 inch, 33 ounce bat was the bat he predominantly used post career."

Now go back up and look at Jeff Bird's post above with his posting of Mantle's Ledger Card.

There are 8 entries from 1969 to 1974 and NOT ONE OF THEM is for a 35" 33 ounce order. Also - in reviewing the online Mantle Charts on GUU - here are all of his 1969 orders:

24 - M110 Bats - 35" & 32 ounces
12 - P104 Bats - 35" & 32 ounces
12 - Mc113 - 34" & 33 ounces

There is not one Mantle order for 35", 33 ounce bats in the records from 1969 - 1979..........I don't have the post 1980 records with me - but that's irrelevant, as the bat is from the 73-75 labeling period........

Just an observation............Jim

[Eric]

I posted this yesterday and am waiting for the response...

Definition of "Matches Factory Records?"

November 15 2006 at 12:09 PM Eric Stangel (ecky3@aol.com) Eric Stangel (Login EricStangel (http://www.network54.com/Profile/EricStangel))Hello-

Maybe this has been addressed, if so I apologize for the repeat but...

Could you give your definition of "Matches Factory Records?"

Does it have to do with a single bat order, or a general look at a player's orders over his career, or even the perspective of what other players order during an era.

Thanks
Eric Stangel


A response has been posted on mearsonline.com

Interested in people's thoughts

[Birdbats]

Eric,

After reading Troy's response, it sounds like the whole "photo match" vs. "style match" debate again.

"Records" typically is a reference to H&B shipping records. Most that are available to collectors are older and limited to star players. It's difficult to find records for older non-stars and any current player. Though it's possible, I'm not aware of anyone having actual factory shipping records from other manufacturers.

In many cases, the best most of us can do is make a "style match" -- or maybe "spec match" is more appropriate for bats. That is, we can determine a bat is consistent with a player's length, weight, etc. For example, if you know from H&B records that a player used 35"/32 oz. ash S2 H&B bats, and you come across an Adirondack bat with the player's name and the same specs, that could be a spec match (since we don't have Rawlings records with which to compare). The concept of a "spec match" would be even more relevant with current bats, given the number of manufacturers today and the lack of H&B records.

To me, the term "matches factory records" should be limited to those cases where the bat in question is made by H&B and it's specs can be matched with specific orders in the player's records (assuming production variances of maybe 1/4" for lengths and 1/2 ounce on weights).

Using this as a guideline, no non-H&B bat could be classified as "matching factory records" (unless someone is successful in getting the appropriate manufacturer records).

Also, if a player often ordered K55 H&B bats, and often ordered bats that were 35" and 32 oz. -- but never ordered K55 bats that were 35/32 -- then a K55 35/32 would not "match factory records." At best, it would be a "spec match."

In a letter of opinion, I think the question of "matches factory records" should simply be answered either "yes" or "no." If it can't, maybe there needs to be another section that says, "matches known specifications" with room for explanation.

Just my two cents.