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Eric
03-12-2013, 09:10 PM
Saw someone post this on twitter. Does anyone know what the bat was graded by MEARS?
https://twitter.com/BradZiegler/status/311659608362057729/photo/1

Eric

arminter1989
03-12-2013, 11:31 PM
I saw that post on twitter. It's crazy that Brad Ziegler would pull that card. It's kinda sad seeing such a nice artifact chopped up but that's another conversation.

Masimen
03-12-2013, 11:33 PM
Ohh, thats a bummer!

yanks12025
03-13-2013, 04:18 AM
I quickly looked on mears site, and its not listed under Hack Wilson backs when you do a search. Would be easier if we could figure out all the numbers.

dietdew
03-13-2013, 07:17 AM
it kind of looks like 312_91 and the missing number is round at the top narrowing it to a 2,3,6,8, or 9

yanks12025
03-13-2013, 07:50 AM
I looked and found nothing, so emailed Troy asking about it. But it doesn't even look like a knob.

dietdew
03-13-2013, 07:58 AM
When I get really bored I look at some of the baseball card boards. I saw a Carew "knob" relic that was actually from the other end of the bat, so the term knob may have been used loosely.
http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/baseball/469791-bat-knob-cards-arent-actually-bat-knobs.html

It's funny to see Ziegler's name because yesterday I was reading a deadspin article about a pissing match he got into on ebay with the owner of a Babe Ruth redemption card.
http://deadspin.com/d-backs-reliever-attempts-to-buy-baseball-card-gets-i-453369559

yanks12025
03-13-2013, 08:29 AM
I tweeted brad saying he should buy the whole bat instead of supporting these companies that destroy sports collectibles.

He wrote back saying "
@yanks12025 I'll disagree with ur opinion - I like lower-end collectors being able to own a piece of history they couldn't afford otherwise"

dietdew
03-13-2013, 08:51 AM
I tweeted brad saying he should buy the whole bat instead of supporting these companies that destroy sports collectibles.

He wrote back saying "
@yanks12025 I'll disagree with ur opinion - I like lower-end collectors being able to own a piece of history they couldn't afford otherwise"

For the cost of one box of National Treasures, I could add about 3 full jerseys to my "low end" collection. Back when I only did cards, I had a bunch of game used card but quit buying them when I found that the premium pieces often cost a high percentage of getting a whole item or in some cases more than a complete item such as this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/05-LEAF-LIMITED-ROD-CAREW-GAME-USED-BAT-BARREL-1-2-HOF-/350314536860?pt=US_Baseball&hash=item51905f9f9c

yanks12025
03-14-2013, 11:52 AM
Troy wrote back to me, here's the list of Wilson bats that mears did.


Here is what I have.
303692-- Circa 1930's Hack Wilson Hanna Batrite Professional Model Bat
305155-- 1920's-30's Hack Wilson Kren's Professional Model Bat
308352--- 1925 Hack Wilson Louisville Slugger Professional Model Bat (First
Recorded H&B Bat)
308385---1932 Hack Wilson Model Spalding Autograph Store Bat - Sidewritten by Wilson
308631-- 1928 Hack Wilson Louisville Slugger Professional Model Late Bat - Prototype
310953-- 1927-36 Hack Wilson Spalding Autograph Model Bat - Sidewritten
312193---1932 Hack Wilson


So could this be another players bat?

Eric
03-14-2013, 12:25 PM
Good info, thanks. Hmm. I wonder if there's a typo somewhere

you listed
312193---1932 Hack Wilson

looks like that sticker could read
312391

any idea what that Hack Wilson was graded? I'm interested what kinds of grades Panini puts on their cards.

Eric
03-14-2013, 12:33 PM
Here's a Mears graded A8 1932 Hack Wilson bat which sold on 4/1/2012 for $6684. I don't see a sticker on either end. (Tough to see the top of the bat)

https://mearsonlineauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=46444&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=28&seo=1932-Hack-Wilson-Brooklyn-Dodgers-H%26B-Louisville-Slugger-Professional-Model-Game-Used-Bat-(MEARS-A8)

GoTigers
03-14-2013, 01:13 PM
Does the card say anywhere that the bat was game used by Hack? All it says on the front of the card, is that it's an "authentic knob"... and even that is incorrect, It's obviously a barrel end.

I think the only reason a card company would advertise a knob, and provide a barrel end, is because there were markings on the knob that showed this bat was obviously not used by Hack.. Either inch marks, or other makers marks.

If I'm reading this correctly Troy provided a list of all authenticated game used, Hack bats. So, I'm putting my money on this being a batrite with the patent marks on the knob, or a spalidng with the trademark on the knob which recieved an "authentic" grade from Mears, or some index bat.

GoTigers
03-14-2013, 01:23 PM
These card companies are making big bucks by chopping up index and pro issued bats. Then they hide behind small print, and mislead their customers. "Game Used Hack Wilson Bat" could simply mean a bat with Hack Wilson on the barrel, was used in a game by some player. That's much different than, "Bat Used by Hack Wilson".

That's why I think the debate about cutting up artifacts is overrated. The card companies are cutting up $500 index bats, not $8000 game used bats. They are in the game to make money, so they'll spend as little as possible on "artifacts" and leave it up to the lawyers for the description.

Don't get me wrong, I know there have been some great pieces destroyed by these companies, but I think its the exeption rather than the rule. If they were cutting up "GU 10" bats, then they would advertize the fact, and provide images beforehand. This would assure the customer base that they were getting a part of history.

yanks12025
03-14-2013, 01:25 PM
I looked on the mears datebaseand it lists 5. The one missing is the Eric pointed out from 1932. I have a feeling it is a type and the 1932 bat.


The Cobb they chopped up was a spalding. I'd like to see what joe jackson bat they destroyed.

yanks12025
03-14-2013, 01:28 PM
These card companies are making big bucks by chopping up index and pro issued bats. Then they hide behind small print, and mislead their customers. "Game Used Hack Wilson Bat" could simply mean a bat with Hack Wilson on the barrel, was used in a game by some player. That's much different than, "Bat Used by Hack Wilson".

That's why I think the debate about cutting up artifacts is overrated. The card companies are cutting up $500 index bats, not $8000 game used bats. They are in the game to make money, so they'll spend as little as possible on "artifacts" and leave it up to the lawyers for the description.

Don't get me wrong, I know there have been some great pieces destroyed by these companies, but I think its the exeption rather than the rule. If they were cutting up "GU 10" bats, then they would advertize the fact, and provide images beforehand. This would assure the customer base that they were getting a part of history.


Jimmy.
The Cobb that was chopped up was a professional model spalding which sell for $10,000++

Eric
03-14-2013, 01:52 PM
You can just look up the serial numbers on the Willie Kamm and Shoeless Joe Jackson bats. Oh wait...

GoTigers
03-14-2013, 02:18 PM
Like I said, there are exeptions and it's terrible when a great item is cut up. But, I believe the vast majority are issued, index, or model bats that were used by another player. Think about it, the numbers just dont add up between known graded examples and relic cards.

If these were highly graded examples, the card companies would advertise it, make "book cards" that show the bat and grade etc. Has anyone ever seen a card that has Ty Cobbs tape from his bat handle? Dont you think they'd capatalize on that? You think they throw the tape away, but have laundry tag cards, button cards, etc? What about the centerbrands? It's all saw dust or knobs with no marks, or barrel ends, and a handful of barrel ends with the players name. All which could be from issued bats

They could make cards with George Brett's pine tar, Griffey's tape, barrel sections with perfect ball marks of logos and ink transfers. There's a reason they dont... They are issued bats, index bats, etc.

GoTigers
03-14-2013, 02:25 PM
And I know someone will probably post a youtube video of "the vault" or whatever they call it at the card companies headquarters. I bet all the vintage stuff is still there, intact, to show to tourists or news crews etc. just to show the great items that get into the product. That, or its resold in a few years at an auction and they get new stuff to show off for a few years.

The lack of transparency just doesnt make any sense, especially if they are cutting up HOF worthy items. It should be advertiesd to create a buzz for the product. Instead you get a generic piece of wood and a vague description of what it's supposed to be. I do think the modern jersey cards, etc. are different. There is such a huge supply of this stuff, I'm basically talking about vintage "relic" cards.

GoTigers
03-14-2013, 02:56 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/fraud-sports-memorabilia-dealer-bradley-wells-tells-fbi-prominent-card-companies-knew-jerseys-fakes-article-1.1159317

Does anyone really believe these guys are adverse to living in the grey? With their descriptions, you can make a convincing argument that a side written bat from a minor leaguer, with "Hack Wilson" on the barrel is in fact a "Hack Wilson Game Used Bat".

There are 2-3 known Joe Jackson game used bats from his MLB playing days.. is this the knob to one of them? Is a bat from his barnstorming days "game used? Is a 33" Joe Jackson model from the H&B vaults with random sidewriting "game used"? Do you really think they bought a $250K from his MLB days and cut it up when there is a grey area they can easily explore?

PAC
03-14-2013, 10:20 PM
These card companies are making big bucks by chopping up index and pro issued bats. Then they hide behind small print, and mislead their customers. "Game Used Hack Wilson Bat" could simply mean a bat with Hack Wilson on the barrel, was used in a game by some player. That's much different than, "Bat Used by Hack Wilson".

That's why I think the debate about cutting up artifacts is overrated. The card companies are cutting up $500 index bats, not $8000 game used bats. They are in the game to make money, so they'll spend as little as possible on "artifacts" and leave it up to the lawyers for the description.

Don't get me wrong, I know there have been some great pieces destroyed by these companies, but I think its the exeption rather than the rule. If they were cutting up "GU 10" bats, then they would advertize the fact, and provide images beforehand. This would assure the customer base that they were getting a part of history.

I know I've seen a thousand different game used jersey patch cards of current players that contain a piece of nameplate. Only problem is...the piece of patch is large enough to clearly discern what letter it came from...and the player's name does not even contain that letter.

If they're faking easily obtainable game used items of current players, then...

dre707
03-16-2013, 07:42 PM
I think all game used cards should be like this
http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc466/dre_707/IMAG1189.jpg
But these new cards are like this i dont even know what piece this is from and it doesnt mention it being worn by sheffield himself
http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc466/dre_707/IMAG1191.jpg
And this is what it says on the back "relic" but what is it jersey pants hat?????
http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc466/dre_707/IMAG1190-1.jpg

rdeversole
03-16-2013, 08:07 PM
That card is cool - thanks for sharing!

That memorabilia piece is a swatch cut from the waistband of pants.

mdube16
03-16-2013, 09:00 PM
FYI....Brad is an awsome guy and is happy to talk cards with anyone through either the boards, livecasebreak or twitter. Also he is right in the entire conversation execpt of course in that as we know, anyone can ask 4x the value for whatever they want (although they will still own the item forever)

Eric
03-23-2013, 08:09 PM
Nap Lajoie

yanks12025
03-23-2013, 08:35 PM
What ashame with that lajoie. I think the number is 312483 which was a pro model decal from 1911-17 graded A7.

Eric
04-30-2013, 12:11 PM
What a cool Willie Stargell bat. Let me just look up exactly what MEARS thought of it in the database... oh, wait. Forget it.

MGHProductions
05-01-2013, 09:29 AM
Here's one of the Cobb's they tried to pass off as a gamer. C28 on the knob is way after Cobb retired
Matt

mbenga28
05-01-2013, 11:52 AM
Why is the wear and tear on the barrel sticker usually somewhere near the serial number? Are they deliberately scratched off?