1989 Road Schmidt in Vintage Authentics

[darylv1]

Has anyone had the opportunity to see the pics of 1989 Road Schmidt in Vintage Authentics auction yet? I've been collecting Phillies jerseys for 10 years and never recall seeing vertical arch style lettering on Rawlings jerseys...I thought it should always be block lettering. Unless I missed something major over the years, Phillies stopped wearing Wilson jerseys with vertical arch lettering in 1986. Am I incorrect?

What makes it more obvious is that they have a 1989 home jersey in the same auction with the block lettering on the back - and there is an obvious difference. I casually showed the two pictures to my wife and she picked it out in a matter of seconds.

The description says that it matches known exemplars. That's SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE! I emailed Vintage Authentics to ask about it, but have not received a response.

I know this has been discussed many, many times before, but HOW could Lou Lampson write a LOA for this jersey and HOW can he continue to do what he does? Also, HOW can some auction companies continue to list suspect items, not respond to questions about items, and still continue to stay in business?

[hblakewolf]

Daryl-
Over the last few days, I have been asked by at least 6 collectors to comment on this jersey.

The link is:
http://vintageauthentics.at.truition.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=76030970&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=76377680

There is absolutely no way this is a team issued Schmidt 1989 gamer. My 4 year old daughter would know that the vertical arch name on back is completely incorrect for a 1989 jersey. The Phillies changed to block lettering names on back in 1986, the first year they changed vendors from Wilson to Rawlings.

Here is a photo of a 1989 road Don Carmen currently for sale from Ball Park Heroes, with the correct name on back:
http://www.ballparkheroes.net/Carman%203.jpg

I spoke with Vintage owner Steve Jensen about this, and he indicated that he would review it with Lampson next week, and then make a decision about it. In Steve's defense, I have noted issues with other jerseys in his past auctions, and he has always removed them. Let's hope the same happens here.

I also informed Steve that the 1989 Schmidt home in his auction appears to be a Scoreboard shirt, as the white Rawlings tag is from 1990+, however, the shirt flag tag reads 1989 and is also void of the usual name in collar. These characteristics and the blue autograph on front are exactly the same as the Schmidt Scoreboard shirts.

How could an "authenticator" miss the simple fact that the name on back is the wrong style, especially when a correct style (home Schmidt) was available and a LOA written on it, too! How much time could Lampson have spent authenticating this piece of garbage, 30 seconds? I can picture him looking at the front, back and collar, then writing his LOA. Do you think he ever used any type of reference material during this process? Photos?

Both shirts have the all important Lampson LOA's. If I was to discuss Lampson's LOA's, I'd be writing until Christmas! As I always say, do your own homework and wipe your rear with Lampson LOA's-they are totally worthless.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Always buying better name Phillies and Portland Beavers jerseys

[hblakewolf]

CORRECTION-
My mistake. The Phillies changed to block lettering NOB's in 1987, the first year they switched vendors from Wilson to Rawlings.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[darylv1]

I liked the hobby better when LOA's really didn't exist. I was always VERY selective about who I bought jerseys from. Howard, you saw the Schmidt jersey I just sold - my having that was a result of listening to the advice of trusted people, buying from a trusted source, and doing my homework. I didn't rely on a worthless piece of paper. While selling other pieces of my collection, it has been shocking how many people won't buy something unless it has a LOA.

As far as some of these so called authenticators and experts, it is increasingly frustrating that they continue to get away with it. If my wife went into a department store and bought a Gucci handbag, only to get it home and notice that the tag on the inside said "Bob's Handbags" - well, it would have been stupid on her part, but do you think that department store would have gotten away with it? I don't see how what Lampson does is any different.

[worldchamps]

Howard,

You mentioned they have pulled some items before from auctions. You seem to know alot about Phillies jerseys, and there is another guy on here that seems to know alot about Orioles. Have they ever asked for your advise on items before putting them in the auctions?? It seems that it would save them time and money to have you look at them?? I am sure this is causing alot of people to laugh, but I am being serious....it would make more sense to get multiple opinions on items before selling them?

Bill

[darylv1]

I apologize to all of you, but I'm still heated up about this. His LOA says that the jersey matches known exemplars. I don't know if he ever reads this forum, but if he does - Lou, I'd like you to show me some of these known exemplars that this jersey matches, please.

Do you think these are honest mistakes on his part? Or do you think his intent is to mislead people. If the latter is true, what can be done about it?

[hblakewolf]

Howard,

You mentioned they have pulled some items before from auctions. You seem to know alot about Phillies jerseys, and there is another guy on here that seems to know alot about Orioles. Have they ever asked for your advise on items before putting them in the auctions?? It seems that it would save them time and money to have you look at them?? I am sure this is causing alot of people to laugh, but I am being serious....it would make more sense to get multiple opinions on items before selling them?

Bill

Bill-
I know nothing about hockey and next to nothing about football, however, I do know Phillies equipment. I receive many emails and calls from collectors seeking my advice on Phillies jerseys, hats, jackets, etc. As I made note here last year, I'll be more than happy to assist any collector with authenticating a Phillies items FREE OF CHARGE. All I ask is that the item be sent to me insured, and correct return postage provided for me to send it back.

I can only assume that the various auction houses use people like Lampson because it is easy and removes them from any type of liability (their name is not on the LOA). When an auction house has 200 jerseys to write LOA's for, they call an "authenticator", fly him in for 2 days, and when he heads back home, all the items have his all-important LOA and can then be put up on the auction block. If an auction house took your advice, and contacted me for Phillies, Mark Sutton for Orioles, Rudy for Blue Jays, etc. it would prove way too time consuming. Furthermore, the "hobby" has grown to know names such as MEARS, PSA, LAMPSON, etc. Do you think the hobby knows, WOLF, SUTTON, RUDY, etc.? Although your suggestion is dead on, you'll never see it happen unless you start your own authenticating firm and employ the services of those specialized in specific teams.

My offer still stands-if a collector has any questions about a Phillies jersey, jacket, hats, warm-up, etc., I'll be more than happy to assist, free of charge. I can be contacted at the email below.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

hello howard, nice to see you posting again. this isn't the only scoreboard jersey in the auction.

daryl, here are my thoughts regarding your questions about lampson, his errors, and how he continues to stay in business:

it's difficult to engage in the necessary diligence when you're pumping out more loas than hershey pumps out chocolate. it does however mean more money for lou. additionally, it's also difficult to singlehandedly be able to authenticate any item from any sport from any year. it does however mean more money than sticking to one or two niches. perhaps that answers why these basic errors continue to occur.

as for why the industry continues to use him, i believe the answer is the same as it was for the first part; profit maximization. i believe lou's cheaper than his competition. i've also heard some say he's able to turn items over faster. i have no doubt. (doesn't quality usually fly out the window when you focus on being cheap and fast?). i also concur with howard that auction houses need to advertise well-known names. it's no wonder why so many authenticators are huge self-promoters. they bigger a brand they can make themselves into, the more they can convince people they're "the world's foremost authority". pretty soon, many buyers who don't know any better start to believe it. the auction houses in turn use these brand names to attract buyers.

if lou didn't realize all of this, why is he practically impossible to reach? why is it that i can easily reach most of his peers? without being facetious, i'll honestly say that if i authenticated like lampson then i'd do my best to hide.

as for your final question regarding what can be done about this, i suppose there are a few options. as a collector, you can place no stock in lampson's opinions. if you've been burned by him, then you can pursue legal action. (i suppose it's tricky to serve someone when they're more elusive than the chupacabra). this isn't a matter of simply being wrong. it's a matter of being woefully negligent. there's a huge difference. what was it that the judge said to richie russek when a collector took gfc to court over their authentication of a ripken jersey? "you didn't even try".

rudy.

[lon lewis]

the amusing part of this auction was when i noticed 2 phillies jerseys tagged 1989 with differing nameplates that should have been the first clue that you only had a 50% chance of getting it right. on another note check the bonds. first, the giants didn't year tag their jerseys secondly there should be a bonds authenticated (no year) & 3 tags size 50, +1in sleeve length, +1 extra length. although he's wearing an alternate black jersey in the photo, getty images #51716513 shows bonds with his shirt tail out and you can clearly see 3 tags and the bonds tag. also for those who have access to it, espn the magazine dated 9/17/01 has a full on photo of bonds with his shirt tail out and that shows the tags. i won't even go into the problems with the placement of the nob and #'s. if you want to see a primer on bonds jerseys it can be found on mike quick's web site www.mikessportinggoods.com (http://www.mikessportinggoods.com) click on the bonds link. like most of you i really don't know why authenticators don't even do the most simple of checks especially when they have access to their vast store of "exemplars" and source books and photos. maybe they need some new ones. when checking out jerseys. in the case of the 2 phillies and the bonds there should have been red flags all over the place.

[sportscentury]

Forum readers...

Sorry to be hopping on this thread a little late. A few days ago, I emailed Vintage about this jersey. Steve Jensen wrote back to me to say that they were going to re-examine the piece and then get back to me. I responded by saying that the Schmidt jersey is
NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Still, I expect that Steve will do the right thing, thoroughly re-examine the jersey, and pull it (and maybe throw it in the garbage).

A few points:

1) No one knows Phillies knits better than Howard. For whatever reason, auction houses do not contact him to ask him for his advice. I realize that some auction houses may not view Howard as their favorite person because of his posts on this forum. However, long before GUF and GUU, auction houses still neglected to contact Howard about Phillies shirts. Why? I really don't know. He has never asked for money to review shirts, pants, etc., for authenticators, auction houses, and collectors (including folks whom he does not even know). I don't get it. But, then again, there are many things about the hobby that apparently I don't get.

2) I agree with Rudy: Howard, it is nice to see you posting on GUF again!

3) Lon, I have really appreciated your contributions to the forum (for example, I just read your post about the Giants Carlton shirt with great interest and learned from it). I do have to ask you, though, didn't you work with Lou Lampson at American Memorabilia? I'm pretty sure you did (or, at least, AMI represented that you did). My question for you is: What is your impression of Lou? Although it is not completely clear to me from your post (some of your posts confuse the heck out of me), you seem to think that this Schmidt shirt is a joke (in which case, I say NICE CALL, because IT IS A JOKE). You must know from reading the forum that, again and again, forum members are horrified by the blatantly bad items they see authenticated by Lou. Can you offer some insight? Seriously, I think many of us are baffled by this unrelenting pattern.

4) In my entire hobby tenure, I have never before seen as many BLATANTLY BAD Phillies "game used" jerseys as I have seen in the past few months. It's incredible. The majority of the time, I pick up on the tell-tale signs quite quickly... but I still couldn't imagine paying hard-earned money for one of these items without having Howard take a look at the shirt first. I am not sure why certain others do not share the same standard.

Cheers,
Reid

[lon lewis]

Reid regarding Lou Lampson, in 2005 I did authenticate for AMI twice. however, I had no interaction with Lou other than to say hello. He was doing his thing with basketball and football and I had my own assignment, which was primarily baseball We were also working in 2 different locations within the building. We did not work together. Personally, I think that the whole authentication process is a joke as currently constituted and I'm even wondering if it's necessary. Long ago I was told by Dick Dobbins (and this is a theory that I subscribe to) that jerseys have to stand on their own regardless of any LOA, story,or anything else that came with the jersey. At that time, that meant that it should have whatever tagging was used, be the right size, exibit some sort of use, not be changed from some nobody to a star, things like that. if, after it passed all of the checks and had a letter or some other form of provinance, well, that was just a bonus.

Regading why there seems to be such a problem with authenticators, this hobby/industry has created their own monster with the over reliance or perceived need for third party authenticators whose credo seems to be that their minds are already made up and don't confuse them with the facts. I could go on and on about this and what certain people do to authenticate but enough said.

Lastly, the point I was trying to make with the phillies jersey and the bonds jersey was that they were both jokes.

[sportscentury]

Lon,

Thanks. I agree with several of your points. Are you no longer working with AMI? If not, why not? They seem to have gone through a decent list of authenticators in recent years (though Lou has been their consistent favorite).

Thanks again for your note.
Reid

[lon lewis]

Reid, my last work for AMI was in August of 2005. Immediately after that some things transpired that caused me to decide not to work for them anymore. I won't go into specifics on the forum but I will discuss them privately (phone or email )

[sportscentury]

Hi, Lon...

I'm at rgf2@hotmail.com or I will gladly call you on my dime if you want to email me your phone number. Thanks for your post.

Reid

[darylv1]

Steve Jensen wrote back to me and notified me that the road Schmidt jersey has been pulled from their auction.

[sportscentury]

I think Steve has pulled a handful of items, based on people's emails. It seems like he is being very responsive to collectors and forum members and that he is making a real effort to only offer quality/real items.

Reid

[kingjammy24]

if steve removes an item due its being questionable and the item was "authenticated" by lampson, does steve receive a refund on the item's authentication fee from lampson?

you would think if an authenticator passes an item and the item is later revealed to be bad, then the authenticator would issue a refund of the authentication fee but i'm not sure if that's actually lampson's policy.

many have expressed shock and confusion over lampson's refusal to ever admit any fault, even when confronted with overwhelming and solid evidence. when presented with such evidence, most other authenticators would be forced to concede they erred. not lou though. perhaps he refuses to admit fault because he doesn't want to be forced to return a decent chunk of change? perhaps he realizes if he admitted fault, his "brand" would sink further to the point where he may finally start losing his auction house contracts?

rudy.

[ironmanfan]

Rudy....Are you telling me that Lampson gets paid for his work??

[sportscentury]

Rudy,

My bet is that Steve does not get a refund. Lou would likely say that the item is good, in his opinion, and that is that. I would also bet that Steve does not expect or ask for a refund.

Reid