Gernay, Oldridge, Horne Plead Guilty

[Eric]

Here's Sports Collectors Daily's coverage, including the plea agreements...
http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/guilty-pleas-in-jersey-fraud-cases/

[Eric]

From NY Daily News

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/memorabilia-dealers-plead-guilty-selling-counterfeit-game-used-jerseys-trading-card-companies-article-1.980965

Memorabilia dealers plead guilty to selling counterfeit game-used jerseys to trading card companies

Memorabilia dealers plead guilty to selling fake game-used jerseys
BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Monday, November 21 2011, 7:25 PM

Three sports memorabilia dealers accused of selling bogus game-used jerseys to trading card companies and other collectors pleaded guilty to mail fraud on Monday in Illinois federal court.

A statement released by Patrick Fitzgerald, the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, says Bernard Gernay of Howell, N.J., Bradley Horne of Sunset, S.C., and Jarrod Oldridge of Las Vegas acknowledged that they altered jerseys obtained from retail outlets and other sources to make them appear to be used in games by pro athletes, substantially increasing their value.

The charges stem from a four-year investigation into fraud in the sports memorabilia industry that has been conducted by the Chicago FBI and other federal agencies. Executives from some of the most prominent companies in sports memorabilia – including Legendary Auctions, Grey Flannel, Professional Sports Authenticators and now-defunct Mastro Auctions – have been questioned at sports memorabilia shows in recent years.

Plea agreements filed in federal court on Monday say Gernay, Horne and Oldridge have agreed to provide information to investigators and testify in civil or criminal proceedings – which may mean that the dealers will be used by federal prosecutors as witnesses in cases against other memorabilia industry executives.

Sentencing is scheduled for May 2, 2012. The maximum prison sentence for mail fraud is 20 years.

Oldridge is the owner of JO Sports Co., a Las Vegas company that has contracts with the Jets and several other teams to sell jerseys, helmets, game balls and other memorabilia that were used in NFL games.

Gernay, Horne and Oldridge were among six dealers charged last month with selling counterfeit game-used jerseys to trading card companies, which cut them up to include swaths of cloth in high-end cards.

The defendants include Eric Inselberg, a New Jersey dealer linked to a North Carolina warm-up jersey sold at a 2007 Mastro Auction for $11,000. Mastro executives claimed the jersey had once belonged to Michael Jordan.

As the Daily News first reported, authenticators and collectors said the jersey was an obvious fake in the weeks leading up to the auction, which was conducted at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Cleveland.

Another defendant, Mitchell Schumacher of Wisconsin, was a target in Operation Foul Ball, an investigation into sports memorabilia conducted by the Chicago FBI more than 10 years ago. According to court records, prosecutors said Schumacher sold bogus game-used NBA jerseys to collectors. He pleaded guilty in 2000 to frauds and swindles and received three years of probation and was fined $30,000.

A Florida dealer, Bradley Wells, was also charged with mail fraud.

More than a dozen law-enforcement officers, led by a United States Postal Inspection Service agent, also arrested a Minnesota dealer, Steve Jensen of Vintage Authentics, at this year’s show at the Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, Ill. A criminal complaint unsealed in New York federal court after Jensen’s arrest charged him with one count of mail fraud and one count of wire fraud. The feds said Jensen sold bogus game-used jerseys his company claimed had been worn by Alex Rodriguez, Mark McGwire and Albert Pujols.

[lakeerie92]

Probably should plan on locking this thread already. I can only imagine where it is going.

[joelsabi]

From NY Daily News

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/memorabilia-dealers-plead-guilty-selling-counterfeit-game-used-jerseys-trading-card-companies-article-1.980965

Memorabilia dealers plead guilty to selling counterfeit game-used jerseys to trading card companies

Memorabilia dealers plead guilty to selling fake game-used jerseys
BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Monday, November 21 2011, 7:25 PM

Three sports memorabilia dealers accused of selling bogus game-used jerseys to trading card companies and other collectors pleaded guilty to mail fraud on Monday in Illinois federal court.

A statement released by Patrick Fitzgerald, the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, says Bernard Gernay of Howell, N.J., Bradley Horne of Sunset, S.C., and Jarrod Oldridge of Las Vegas acknowledged that they altered jerseys obtained from retail outlets and other sources to make them appear to be used in games by pro athletes, substantially increasing their value.

The charges stem from a four-year investigation into fraud in the sports memorabilia industry that has been conducted by the Chicago FBI and other federal agencies. Executives from some of the most prominent companies in sports memorabilia – including Legendary Auctions, Grey Flannel, Professional Sports Authenticators and now-defunct Mastro Auctions – have been questioned at sports memorabilia shows in recent years.

Plea agreements filed in federal court on Monday say Gernay, Horne and Oldridge have agreed to provide information to investigators and testify in civil or criminal proceedings – which may mean that the dealers will be used by federal prosecutors as witnesses in cases against other memorabilia industry executives.

Sentencing is scheduled for May 2, 2012. The maximum prison sentence for mail fraud is 20 years.

Oldridge is the owner of JO Sports Co., a Las Vegas company that has contracts with the Jets and several other teams to sell jerseys, helmets, game balls and other memorabilia that were used in NFL games.

Gernay, Horne and Oldridge were among six dealers charged last month with selling counterfeit game-used jerseys to trading card companies, which cut them up to include swaths of cloth in high-end cards.

The defendants include Eric Inselberg, a New Jersey dealer linked to a North Carolina warm-up jersey sold at a 2007 Mastro Auction for $11,000. Mastro executives claimed the jersey had once belonged to Michael Jordan.

As the Daily News first reported, authenticators and collectors said the jersey was an obvious fake in the weeks leading up to the auction, which was conducted at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Cleveland.

Another defendant, Mitchell Schumacher of Wisconsin, was a target in Operation Foul Ball, an investigation into sports memorabilia conducted by the Chicago FBI more than 10 years ago. According to court records, prosecutors said Schumacher sold bogus game-used NBA jerseys to collectors. He pleaded guilty in 2000 to frauds and swindles and received three years of probation and was fined $30,000.

A Florida dealer, Bradley Wells, was also charged with mail fraud.

More than a dozen law-enforcement officers, led by a United States Postal Inspection Service agent, also arrested a Minnesota dealer, Steve Jensen of Vintage Authentics, at this year’s show at the Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, Ill. A criminal complaint unsealed in New York federal court after Jensen’s arrest charged him with one count of mail fraud and one count of wire fraud. The feds said Jensen sold bogus game-used jerseys his company claimed had been worn by Alex Rodriguez, Mark McGwire and Albert Pujols.

thanks for the update.

What interested me was that the three dealers might be used by federal prosecutors as witnesses in cases against other memorabilia industry executives. So it seems this is not the end of the FBI investigation to clean up the game used memorabilia industry.

How about the authenticator of the jerseys that were sold by Jensen? Wonder if they will be held accountable too.

[both-teams-played-hard]

The defendants include Eric Inselberg, a New Jersey dealer linked to a North Carolina warm-up jersey sold at a 2007 Mastro Auction for $11,000. Mastro executives claimed the jersey had once belonged to Michael Jordan.


This story was reported and investigated by this very forum, before the NY Daily News story.

[both-teams-played-hard]

cut and pasted from the Sports Collector's Daily article:

"When game used jerseys were purchased for this purpose, the manufacturers often required that the seller provide a "certificate of authenticity" that the jerseys were authentic game used jerseys."

It is well documented on this forum, by seasoned collectors that a letter of authenticity isn't worth much. What criteria does a card company use to validate the writer of one of these "so-called" letters? I think the card companies deserve to be investigated by the Feds. At least a "cease and desist" on jersey cards is in order.

[xpress34]

So, now that there is PROOF that Jarrod is GUILTY of the charges - here's his Plea Deal:

JO Plea Agreement (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Oldridge.pdf)

Will GUU and Chris Cavalier BAN him from the board?

This was THE question in the previous discussion and Mr Cavalier's response was always the same - 'No one knows the charges... he is still innocent until proven guilty (even though the fact he made a plea was verified ad nauseum)...GUU will provide him a forum to state his case...' - etc.

Again, I have NO DOG in this fight as I am a Baseball Guy - no football - but a crook is a crook is a crook, no matter what sport he is selling when it comes to the GU hobby.

It also appears that even though Mitch Schumacher was trying to make a Plea (Criminal Information as well), the Feds have as yet to reach a Plea Deal with him - maybe because of his past:


In addition to Oldridge, Horne and Gernay, Wisconsin resident Mitchell Schumacher was also charged by information with mail fraud. No plea deal involving Schumacher was announced. He pled guilty to frauds and swindles as part of Operation Foul Ball in 2000 and received three years of probation and was fined $30,000.

It's possible the Feds are going to hit him harder because of his past involvement in the same crime.

I hope this thread is NOT locked as it should provide some lively debate - I'm sure there are still 'players' here who will defend JO and still buy from him before his sentencing next year.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

- Smitty

[schubert1970]

I expect an apology.

[xpress34]

I expect an apology.

I wouldn't hold my breath. When I mentioned that I felt a few people owed some other past members apologies over the Mitch Schumacher debacle I was told quite bluntly that it would not happen.

On a different note - and one that might get me banned (what with the current tempermant around here) - I was reviewing the old thread (that got Lokee banned) and while not pointing fingers, I still find it interesting (and I stated this before in a post that was immediately deleted) that the C to C forum is 'capped' at $500.00 AND, you can't list your item for sale ANYWHERE else or your C to C listing will be removed.

However, if you are a 'friend of GUU' (such as Steiner, JO, etc) you may make special 'offers' to GUU members to buy items from you that far exceed the $500 cap AND you can still list the item elsewhere... my original post was in response to the 'spam' eMail I received about a 2010 Giants WS Jacket being offered to 'members' of GUU for ONLY $1,000 for a 'friend' of GUU.

Per the RULES of the FORUM:



4. No Advertising or Website Promotion. Please do not post any messages anywhere on this site that are primarily for the promotion or advertising of any website, item for sale (other than in the 'Collector to Collector Classifieds' section as per its rules), forum, email address, business, multi-level marketing activity or other entity without prior approval from Game Used Universe. (Has any 'member' here ever gotten approval or just 'friends' of GUU?)

5. No Spamming. You will not mass-email multiple members of this site the same message.


While the above may seem to be taking the train off the tracks on this thread, it is in actuality a very 'to the point' statement about the 'special treatment' JO received here as a 'seller' and still received (or may be receiving - that has yet to be seen) through this current legal issue.

I will wait and see what becomes of this post and my comments, but I stand behind them 100% until someone can show me PROOF that their is not an inequity here between the perceived 'members' of GUU and the perceived 'friends' of GUU.

Just my .02

- Smitty

[schubert1970]

Chris, I'm pleased to know I have your attention. Allow me to respond to your
comments.

The only thing I "claim" to have is having been blessed with the great gift of
common sense. Who cares what the "details" are about JO Sports and their
fraudulent distribution of junk mixed in with a few great photo-matched jerseys.
All I know is they have been charged with FRAUD by the feds and are apparently
plea-bargaining their way out of prison time. The details we have all received
in bits and pieces just don't matter. Indictments, plea deals, they do.

I am not here to speculate on where the disconnect is with you, jhunt28, Pale
Hose For Life, 34swtns, or any of the others who can't see it's daytime when the
sun is overhead. But all I can say with certainty is, there is a disconnect. JO
Sports has duped a lot of people into believing they are honest and are
operating with the utmost in integrity. That just wasn't the truth. I don't need
"details" to understand that. They got you, a lot of members here, many NFL
teams, and the list goes on. They have really done a number on many. They abused
their perceived "integrity and honesty".

If you guys in support of JO can't understand that you are all supporting a
criminal with your stances and comments, then why should any of us bother to try
to enlighten you? If you screw a brand new light bulb into a broken socket, that
light will still not go on. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of
common sense. And I have to say I am shocked that you have taken the position
you have Chris. After we have a federal indictment or statement naming guilty
parties, displayed in a news release for all to see, aren't we past the point of
"innocent until proven guilty" and all that "benefit of the doubt" nonsense?

However, a much more serious issue again comes to mind. If the members mentioned
above are so reckless and non-caring for their fellow collectors as they have
displayed with their own words, stating that if your a newbie, don't do your
homework, don't photo-match the jerseys before you buy, then you're basically a
loser, all the while supporting an outfit and his owner who have been charged
with fraud, then why haven't they been banned? Is this position in line with
your stated claim, "Further, GUU has always stood for honesty and integrity and
remains committed to doing so going forward." And let's not forget "Personally,
I think it is important to let JO make any statements at this point rather than
speculating like some of the other members are doing. Notably, GUU will remain
available as a forum for Jarrod to respond."

Personally, I think that crosses the line of honesty and integrity. The guy's
been identified as a crook! Why should he have the right to come here and lie
some more?? What part of this am I missing?

Giving a forum to a guy who's been publicly placed in the "slammer" (meaning of
public opinion, a colorful figment of speech, not literally, at least yet) by
naming him as one of six having been arrested for fraud, is not what I would
want a forum I am a member of to stand for. So let me see if I got this
straight? Allowing a plea-bargainer to federal charges of fraud against some of
us here who utilize this forum, to post his view after being exposed as one of
the guilty parties, is your way of promoting integrity and honesty on the GUU?

The bottom line is this, Chris. If you aren't sure of the exact charges against
him and JO Sports, when the crimes occurred (before or after team deals, like
that matters?), or why some of us here just completely disagree with the
position you have taken and the conflicting signs you put out there in your
actions regarding matters of this kind, then maybe you place your money where
your mouth is. It's time you call up your friend Jarrod and ask him flat out
what happened and supply us with some answers. After all, he is your business
associate. Aren't you entitled to know what happened, especially in light of the
fact he tarnished you and your reputation in the industry, using his
relationship with you to fraudulently distribute garbage to members here, other
collecting public members, other distributors, Uncle Jed, Darth Vadar, and
anyone else who collects? If you really are here to display integrity and
honesty, why not start by showing both to the people you are supposed to be
helping. Us. I would argue Jarrod, at this point, is not one of them.

And I still would like to hear your explanation as to the different directions
you head in your handling of wrongdoers on the forum. There is a pattern of
biased decisions that I asked you about. Please explain why guys you have some
kind of a relationship with, such as Steinmetz and JO Sports, seem to get
obvious assistance they really don't deserve given the evidence against them,
yet someone you don't have any ties to get's the heavy hammer of Thor heaved
into their head?

As a member of this forum in good standing, I want to see you do the right thing
and ban JO Sports immediately from this forum. Because personally, I don't care
where jhunt28, 34swtns, or Pale Hose for Life gets their football jerseys from
in the future. They can always find another fraudulent company to buy from.
They're all over the place, and often assisted right here!

Thank you for exercising your promise of no repercussions to us posters who
share what we know.

Bill

[xpress34]

...yet someone you don't have any ties to get's the heavy hammer of Thor heaved into their head?

Bill

Bill -

1st, that would be Mjölnir - the Hammer of Thor... :cool:

2nd' did Mr Cavalier respond to you privately? You mentioned having his attention, yet I didn't see a post from him in this thread - yet.

All the best -

Smitty

[schubert1970]

Bill -

1st, that would be Mjölnir - the Hammer of Thor... :cool:

2nd' did Mr Cavalier respond to you privately? You mentioned having his attention, yet I didn't see a post from him in this thread - yet.

All the best -

Smitty

No, but this was similar to an earlier post that was taken down.

This post is for Lokee!!!!!!!!

[xpress34]

No, but this was similar to an earlier post that was taken down.

This post is for Lokee!!!!!!!!

Bill -

Not to stray from the thread at hand, but it just hit me (no pun intended) that you had mentioned Mjölnir and then you state that this post is for Lokee... was your reference to Thor's hammer planned or just coincidence? (Being as Lokee is Thor's nemesis)...

All the best -

Smitty

[schubert1970]

Can anyone photo match these?

[schubert1970]

Bill -

Not to stray from the thread at hand, but it just hit me (no pun intended) that you had mentioned Mjölnir and then you state that this post is for Lokee... was your reference to Thor's hammer planned or just coincidence? (Being as Lokee is Thor's nemesis)...

All the best -

Smitty


I can't lie....just coincidence.

[xpress34]

Can anyone photo match these?

I can tell you they are FAKE with certainty... don't look anything like any of my Police Issue Smith and Wesson's I carried when doing Loss Prevention...

:p

[schubert1970]

Smitty - Do you think our posts will be here come tomorrow?

[gingi79]

Eric, thanks for starting this thread with updates on the newest version of the "Evil Axis of 6"

The last thread really drove home the fact that even well respected dealers can be found to be less than their reputation and company motto relay. You would think someone whose price structure was as ridiculed at JO's was, would at least take the time to find only authentic merchandise.

I am sure Chris will now remove his affiliation with JO and remove Jarrod and his company from their ability to post here. I say this with sincerity as I have always found GUU to be conducted with integrity and the Mods (including Mr. Cavalier) have always been very straightforward and understanding when a post a comment or have a thread deleted for unknowingly breaking the site's rules.

Other valued members have mentioned the 4 collectors who defended JO. Our resident Walter Payton fan even went so far as to tell us all how his collection is all he cares about and the rest of us deserve to buy fakes and therefore suffer the consequences. I don't however think he said anything worth banning him for. In that particular thread. Censoring his posts simply because he said things we didn't agree with, doesn't jive with the purpose of this site.

I don't think I am alone in saying Chris showed tremendous restraint and true class in dealing with this scandal so far. I bear no ill will towards him or this site and feel confident he will do what is right to continue to protect GUU's integrity.

[xpress34]

Smitty - Do you think our posts will be here come tomorrow?

Bill -

I'm off to bed (just past midnight here in Denver - the 'clock' for this site has never been set by the powers that be) and I'll be up by 5:30am, so I guess we will see.... that is why I always copy and file every post I make before I post it so I will have a copy to reference if the time and need ever come...

All the best -

Smitty

[SaintsGeaux]

I wake up to scan the forum and can't believe Mr. Oldridge pleaded guilty.

While I have no doubt that Mr. Cavalier is a man of high integrity, he nonetheless is and will be tied to JO now for the wrong reasons. Like it or not, it becomes "trouble" by association.

Of other interest is the affiliation with the 8D Auction, where the DOZENS of game used football items don't have any mention of JO, only Team LOA. Nothing short of a conclusive photomatch would get me to bid.

Dirt and grass stains can be added and Team LOAs that didn't come direct from the Teams to 8D mean very little.

In conclusion, Mr. Oldridge didn't just screw himself, he has screwed many good people by association. He has screwed those who spent their hard earned money with him only to find that JO COA may devalue the item. I only hope that Mr. Cavalier realizes there are very few people that you really know in actuality. Nobody ever prepares for this type of fallout. This is earth shattering in size and scope. It's now how Mr. Cavalier deals with the aftermath that will define him in this hobby.

[kellsox]

Plea agreements filed in federal court on Monday say Gernay, Horne and Oldridge have agreed to provide information to investigators and testify in civil or criminal proceedings

How is this going to work out with Oldridge still being the owner of JO????

Also, I wonder what NFL teams will do when learning of the guilty plea....

k

[ChrisCavalier]

I am sure Chris will now remove his affiliation with JO and remove Jarrod and his company from their ability to post here. I say this with sincerity as I have always found GUU to be conducted with integrity and the Mods (including Mr. Cavalier) have always been very straightforward and understanding when a post a comment or have a thread deleted for unknowingly breaking the site's rules....

I don't think I am alone in saying Chris showed tremendous restraint and true class in dealing with this scandal so far. I bear no ill will towards him or this site and feel confident he will do what is right to continue to protect GUU's integrity.
Hello Matt,

Thank you very much for your post. It is refreshing to know that there are some who can look at things rationally and with a sense of rigor.

As I posted previously, I did not state that I believed no wrongdoing took place. I stated that I was leaving the forum open to Mr. Oldridge to post if he cared to answer any of the board members directly given there were still so many unknowns.

Personally, I still have a number of questions. That is, I am still not clear of the scope of Mr. Oldridge's involvement and if it involves any of the merchandise acquired from his team deals. While I would personally like an explanation from Mr. Oldridge and would like the forum members to hear directly, I have no interest in leaving that option open since some forum members will undoubtedly accuse me of trying to defend JO if we do. Therefore, despite the fact that I would really like Mr. Oldridge to post specifics here, we will go ahead and ban JO from the forum since, if we don't, there will be obviously some here who will claim some form of impropriety on the part of GUU. Instead, I will seek the answers to the questions I have off these boards.

In addition, 8D will be contacting the teams currently having deals with JO Sports. If there is any question that the items from JO's team deals are in question, we will remove them from the 8D Auction. Personally, I suspect the items from the team deals are not in question. However, 8D will remove them from the auction if there is any question whatsoever after discussing this matters with the teams.

Given my time is limited right now due to our upcoming auction launch, I will have a limited amount of time to post here. Therefore, if anyone has specific questions that are worthy of a response, I apologize in advance if it might take some time for me to post on the forum. I trust people will understand this is not a matter of avoidance but simply feasibility given all we need to do in preparation for our upcoming auction launch.

Sincerely,
Chris

[xpress34]

I wake up to scan the forum and can't believe Mr. Oldridge pleaded guilty.

Saints -

Let me open by stating this post is NOT an attack on you or any other forum member (or owner/mod/etc)...

That said, I am sure you are not the only one who will have that feeling, but if you read the other threads on this subject, myself and others tried as best as we could to explain that a 'Criminal Information' is a Plea Bargain (meaning the admission of guilt) - it just hadn't been put into a Legal Document yet (as I attached a few posts back) but that doesn't change the fact that - again - JO had already made the plea deal by the time any of us read the the 2nd article from SCD.

Many posted here that no one knew the facts, etc - again, links were posted to the charges, etc - and I think it was just them turning a blind eye and holding out hope that what they were reading wasn't true.

As of this writing, josportsco is still a member in good standing (I just searched the member list and he does NOT have a banned or suspended tag under his name) and has not been banned from this site while others have been banned immediately for way less serious offenses against the hobby - and this site - than this.

I agree with your statements that his affiliation with GUU (specials, etc) and how GUU handles that affiliation will definately temper how big of a black eye this is to this site - not just the hobby.

All the best -

Smitty

[xpress34]

While I would personally like an explanation from Mr. Oldridge and would like the forum members to hear directly, I have no interest in leaving that option open since some forum members will undoubtedly accuse me of trying to defend JO if we do. Therefore, despite the fact that I would really like Mr. Oldridge to post specifics here, we will go ahead and ban JO from the forum since, if we don't, there will be obviously some here who will claim some form of impropriety on the part of GUU.

Given my time is limited right now due to our upcoming auction launch, I will have a limited amount of time to post here. Therefore, if anyone has specific questions that are worthy of a response, I apologize in advance if it might take some time for me to post on the forum. I trust people will understand this is not a matter of avoidance but simply feasibility given all we need to do in preparation for our upcoming auction launch.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris -

As a matter of being fair, I was writing my last post while you were apparently posting this one (my statement that as of my writing JO was still in good standing).

I do appreciate the value of your time (or anyone's for that matter) to respond to any questions asked and thank you for your candor regarding your time available here vs the 8D auction.

That said, I do believe that my other comments stated are both valid and based in fact which can be verified from previous threads and posts and I hope you will accept them in the way in which they are intended and not like some here thinking I am on a witch hunt or out to bash others.

As a disabled vet and former Loss Prevention agent, I take fraud (theft as it's most base) as a very serious offense regardless of who perpetrated the fraud. I have ended countless relationships of fraud and deceit and that's with people who I know very well - much less those I only know casually through a web site.

I do have one question and hope you have time to answer it - will C to C be taken down again for this auction as it was for the previous GUU auction?

All the best -

Smitty

[ironmanfan]

Saints -



As of this writing, josportsco is still a member in good standing (I just searched the member list and he does NOT have a banned or suspended tag under his name) and has not been banned from this site while others have been banned immediately for way less serious offenses against the hobby - and this site - than this.

I agree with your statements that his affiliation with GUU (specials, etc) and how GUU handles that affiliation will definately temper how big of a black eye this is to this site - not just the hobby.

All the best -

Smitty

Smitty...perhaps you & Chris were posting at the same time but if you read Chris's post, you will note that JO is now a banned member of this community...(BTW, I applaud Chris for taking this action).

Bill

[SaintsGeaux]

Smitty, Mr. Cavalier posted possibly while you were doing your writeup. My only criticism of Mr. Cavalier's response is his mention of timing as to Team deals. At this point, does it really matter?

While timing may give further clarity, it is just merely a sad footnote to an epitaph. Once a cheater, tread lightly on any JO product regardless of timeframe. As I said, nothing short of a conclusive photomatch will do.

[Eric]

Here are some important questions.
These plea deals state hundreds of jerseys were sold to card companies or consigned to auction houses.

Which card companies bought the forged jerseys?
How many bad jersey cards are now in circulation?
Here's a video showing how Panini cuts up jerseys for their cards. Are we talking hundreds of bad cards per jersey? (BTW- I'm not questioning the authenticity of the jersey in the video- just using it to demonstrate the process)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylN_RkIkfAA

Which auction houses sold the bad jerseys?
Were any of the auction houses aware of the plot to deceive buyers?
Will the buyers be notified they have bad jerseys?
Will the consumers who were deceived get any restitution?

When will the card companies make a statement?

[CollectGU]

Hello Matt,


In addition, 8D will be contacting the teams currently having deals with JO Sports. If there is any question that the items from JO's team deals are in question, we will remove them from the 8D Auction. Personally, I suspect the items from the team deals are not in question. However, 8D will remove them from the auction if there is any question whatsoever after discussing this matters with the teams.



Chris,

I'm curious if you discussed contacting the teams directly for confirmation with Jarrod or anyone at JO?

Dave

[BULBUS]

Also, I wonder what NFL teams will do when learning of the guilty plea....


It seems that the Giants have either suspended or terminated their contract with JO. JO has not received any new Giants items in weeks, they used to have a link on the Giants website, no more, and they used to have a Giants Game Used fanpage on facebook, which is no longer there.

Also, I sent an email to JO asking when they expect more Giants items, and no response.

[MSpecht]

Hi Eric

Those questions will be thoroughly examined during the Probation Officer's investigation prior to sentencing, as the Probation Officer not only has to make a recommendation to the Court regarding incarceration (preliminarily set in this case at approximately 33 to 41 months or so based on the plea agreement,) but also has to make a fact-based recommendation to the Court as to restitution to victims:

"(D) when the law provides for restitution, information sufficient for a restitution order."

It will be interesting to see who is determined to have status in the computation of restitution recommendation, as it appears that the amount on the table is "in excess of $400,000.00 with 10 or more victims."

Here is the info that will be included in the Probation Officer's Presentence Investigation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentence_investigation_report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentence_investigation_report)

Mike

[frikativ54]

I just want to commend Chris for doing the right thing and banning JO from this forum.

[buckeyegamers]

Check out ebay auction # 270858076791

Still "misrepresenting" jerseys. I did ask the "seller" if the Gene Upshaw (GU 63) patch had been removed from this jersey but have yet to get a reply. All 9/4/08 jerseys had this patch. This coupled with the fact that Springs didn't play in this particular game tells me that someone hasn't learned their lesson.

[kellsox]

Banning him was a no -brainer and I'm sure not being unable to post on this board is high on JO's list of problems. What will be interesting is which entities (including GUU) will continue their relationship with JO

[joelsabi]

Banning him was a no -brainer and I'm sure not being unable to post on this board is high on JO's list of problems. What will be interesting is which entities (including GUU) will continue their relationship with JO

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?u=3807
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/member.php?find=lastposter&t=7443

[joelsabi]

here is the primary source

http://www.fbi.gov/chicago/press-releases/2011/three-men-plead-guilty-to-fraud-involving-sports-memorabilia

here is the place to subscribe to fbi updates

http://www.fbi.gov/e-mail-updates

[kellsox]

meant to say "not very high"....

[schubert1970]

Years ago when Al Gore list to George Bush, I told my friend what an amazing speech Gore gave and how gracious he was. My friend replied "How hard is it to look gracious when you have no choice but to do the right thing. "

[SaintsGeaux]

Hello Matt,

Thank you very much for your post. It is refreshing to know that there are some who can look at things rationally and with a sense of rigor.

As I posted previously, I did not state that I believed no wrongdoing took place. I stated that I was leaving the forum open to Mr. Oldridge to post if he cared to answer any of the board members directly given there were still so many unknowns.

Personally, I still have a number of questions. That is, I am still not clear of the scope of Mr. Oldridge's involvement and if it involves any of the merchandise acquired from his team deals. While I would personally like an explanation from Mr. Oldridge and would like the forum members to hear directly, I have no interest in leaving that option open since some forum members will undoubtedly accuse me of trying to defend JO if we do. Therefore, despite the fact that I would really like Mr. Oldridge to post specifics here, we will go ahead and ban JO from the forum since, if we don't, there will be obviously some here who will claim some form of impropriety on the part of GUU. Instead, I will seek the answers to the questions I have off these boards.

In addition, 8D will be contacting the teams currently having deals with JO Sports. If there is any question that the items from JO's team deals are in question, we will remove them from the 8D Auction. Personally, I suspect the items from the team deals are not in question. However, 8D will remove them from the auction if there is any question whatsoever after discussing this matters with the teams.

Given my time is limited right now due to our upcoming auction launch, I will have a limited amount of time to post here. Therefore, if anyone has specific questions that are worthy of a response, I apologize in advance if it might take some time for me to post on the forum. I trust people will understand this is not a matter of avoidance but simply feasibility given all we need to do in preparation for our upcoming auction launch.

Sincerely,
Chris

Mr. Cavalier, I want to share with you a story from 2010 when I purchased a Drew Brees jersey from Eric Inselberg. During our discussion he said that you had a relationship with him.

Can you comment on that and will Inselberg be banned as well?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Will the consumers who were deceived get any restitution?

Is this situation grounds for a class action suit against any affected card companies?

[schubert1970]

Mr. Cavalier, I want to share with you a story from 2010 when I purchased a Drew Brees jersey from Eric Inselberg. During our discussion he said that you had a relationship with him.

Can you comment on that and will Inselberg be banned as well?

Great question.

[ChrisCavalier]

Mr. Cavalier, I want to share with you a story from 2010 when I purchased a Drew Brees jersey from Eric Inselberg. During our discussion he said that you had a relationship with him.

Can you comment on that and will Inselberg be banned as well?
Hello Michael,

I had met Eric many years ago through someone else in the industry. I was told that Eric had "connections" with all the teams and that he was one of the best sources in the industry to get game used items.

After purchasing some items, I, after learning more from others in the industry, became concerned that many of the star position player jerseys from Eric lacked the use that one might expect from players in those positions. As such, I discontinued purchasing anything from Eric. Ironically, situations like those provided one of the reasons I started Game Used Universe. While I cannot comment on whether or not those jerseys were fraudulent or not (I understand Mr. Inselberg has pleaded "Not Guilty"), I personally wasn't comfortable with what he had to offer. Therefore, Game Used Universe was created, among other things, to help collectors become more aware of what to look for and be able to make more educated decisions about what they are purchasing.

I cannot speak to his statement that we "had a relationship" but I don't think I had spoken to Eric since around 2006 or thereabouts. If that played into your decision in making your purchase, I wish you would have contacted me in 2010 and I would have given you that information.

As for Eric be banned, I am not aware that he is a member of GUU. In fact, I just checked the database and did not find his name. If you know of any account that belongs to Eric please let me know and it will be banned.

Please feel free to let me know if that answers your question.

Sincerely,
Chris

[SaintsGeaux]

Mr. Cavalier, thank you for the swift response. His mentioning of you actually led me to your web page in January 2010 and didn't have any impact on my decision to purchase. Your site has given quite the education. Most appreciative to the value of photomatch. Somehow I believe this site and membership was the driving force behind cleansing the hobby.

[Number9]

This one sentence in the court papers sums it all up pretty well:

(c) Beginning not later than in or about the middle of 2004, the defendant admits that in the name of JO Sports, Inc. or his name, he obtained hundreds of jerseys that were not game used for the purpose of re-sale, consignment, or auction of the jerseys as game used jerseys.


I commend and thank the federal authorities and hope they continue to investigate and punish others. I also appreciate the collectors here that care about others and our hobby, and I commend and thank Chris for banning the criminals.

[nickacs]

So, I guess I'm not understanding all the court case/FBI info correctly, but why is it that JOSports continues to still run and sell memorabilia if, in fact, they have admitted guilt to selling fake game used jerseys in the past?
Likewise, how come VA auctions continues to run like nothing happened either? (Sorry, I know this is a different subject, but still pertains to the overall question).

I would think sports memorabilia auction/dealers such as these would be shut down indefinitely, no? Or is the case of JOSports that the guilty timeframe was that back in 2004, so they can continue to sell current NFL "game worn" jerseys?

Just seems to me both places are still up and running like nothing has ever happened and looks like the possibility of future customers could possibly be "dup'ed" into buying fake memorabilia again.

[3arod13]

The sad thing is that so many build a good reputation, and start making good money doing so. Then instead of enjoying what they have built, they get greedy and decide to take advanatage of the reputation they built, and decide go down the wrong road. Many people were done wrong in this situation, and I feel bad for all of them.

[commando]

The sad thing is that so many build a good reputation, and start making good money doing so. Then instead of enjoying what they have built, they get greedy and decide to take advanatage of the reputation they built, and decide go down the wrong road. Many people were done wrong in this situation, and I feel bad for all of them.

I agree with what you're saying, but in the case of J.O. it may be the exact opposite.... Jarrod may have done his shenanigans six or seven years ago, then used the funds to position himself as a legit dealer with direct team contacts. I assume you need quite a bit of cash in your pocket to strike deals directly with any major league clubs these days...

[lakeerie92]

If you read all of the information there is a specific incident with Jarrod in April of 2008. It is more recent than six or seven years ago.

[David]

Not referring to anyone specific, but I believe in general if you made your way to success with cheating you'll keep at it if you're not caught. Barring genuine major religious conversion, I don't think people quit cheating if it is a cash cow and if they think they can get away with.

[David]

Again, I am not commenting on anyone specific and I don't know any of the specific stores.

[trsent]

Not referring to anyone specific, but I believe in general if you made your way to success with cheating you'll keep at it if you're not caught. Barring genuine major religious conversion, I don't think people quit cheating if it is a cash cow and if they think they can get away with.

You must not know Bernie Gernay very well. ;)

[xpress34]

Not referring to anyone specific, but I believe in general if you made your way to success with cheating you'll keep at it if you're not caught. Barring genuine major religious conversion, I don't think people quit cheating if it is a cash cow and if they think they can get away with.

David -

I was thinking this same thing. I mean I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but who knows FOR CERTAIN that NONE of those HUNDREDS of jerseys aren't still hanging around in JO's and other inventories just in case they need them to make a sale?

JO and Steve Jensen and others just seem to continue with Business as Usual during all of this... I would think at a minimum - court ordered or not - that they would shut down for at least a brief time to at least show some sort of semblance that they are contrite for their actions, but no... they just keep on advertising and selling like nothing ever happened.

Just my .02 -

Smitty

[camarokids]

The sad thing is that so many build a good reputation, and start making good money doing so. Then instead of enjoying what they have built, they get greedy and decide to take advanatage of the reputation they built, and decide go down the wrong road. Many people were done wrong in this situation, and I feel bad for all of them.

Not sure why you would feel bad for the thieves? What about the victims?

[lakeerie92]

I believe he is saying he feels bad for the victims.

[nycpropain]

So was this the big statement they where going to make? Or can we forget that whole fairy tale now?

[schubert1970]

I just want to commend Chris for doing the right thing and banning JO from this forum.

So what did you expect Chris to do with his account, give him premier gold status?

It's like Penn State removing Paterno....kind of a no brainer.

[trsent]

So what did you expect Chris to do with his account, give him premier gold status?

It's like Penn State removing Paterno....kind of a no brainer.

See, I feel differently - I feel we should let him (them) post on here to explain themselves. Could be ground breaking. We all know with the legal work still going on they wouldn't post, but wouldn't you love to have JO and others come on here and discuss the situation with us?

I know it would never happen, but barring JO from posting doesn't really accomplish anything - They weren't going to come on here and post anyway, so if we left their account accessible to be able to post, maybe someday they would come on here and clear the air.

I don't believe anything relating to Penn State should be related to the sports memorabilia investigation - One was a sick crime that is so unbelievable that comparing that situation with a sports memorabilia while collar crime is not a good comparison.

If you wish to compare the situations, let's be clear - Joe Pa and even the accused in that case can come on television and other media outlets and give their views on the situation. Why not let those involved come on here and offer up for open questioning? Even a statement without reply could be something positive somewhere down the road.

[3arod13]

I believe he is saying he feels bad for the victims.

Yes, I was stating I feel bad for all the victims who bought something they believed were legit.

[nycpropain]

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=46843&page=40

So where are the people saying everyone was crazy because there was no proof? Apparently there was enough proof to become a snitch! Which means they have even more DIRECT information on forgeries which he will be giving up to the feds in exchange for a lesser sentence. Good to know this wasnt a one time thing, just one time they got caught.

[34swtns]

Now that all the Barneys and Gladys's have enjoyed their "gloat moment", let me be the first (and most likely only) one to say.......

Still......not......concerned.

I'll continue purchasing Bears jerseys from JO Sports as I have for the last 3 years.
Completely and 100% unconcerned.


Fife and Kravitz........commence squawking.

[sylbry]

Now that all the Barneys and Gladys's have enjoyed their "gloat moment", let me be the first (and most likely only) one to say.......

Still......not......concerned.

I'll continue purchasing Bears jerseys from JO Sports as I have for the last 3 years.
Completely and 100% unconcerned.


Fife and Kravitz........commence squawking.

You should be. You think the Bears are going to continue dealing with a convict? Perhaps you didn't...think...about...that.

[Jags Fan Dan]

Now that all the Barneys and Gladys's have enjoyed their "gloat moment", let me be the first (and most likely only) one to say.......

Still......not......concerned.

I'll continue purchasing Bears jerseys from JO Sports as I have for the last 3 years.
Completely and 100% unconcerned.


Fife and Kravitz........commence squawking.
I actually get where you are coming from to an extent. If you collect a certain team, and the only person with access to the memorabilia from that team is known to have done something at some point that was illegal, what is a collector to do? Stop collecting? I mean, if I were in the desert dying of thirst, and I came across Bernie Madoffs lemonade stand, I'd probably have to buy a cup, much as I might not like to.

I'm not excusing anybody for wrong-doings. But I'm just trying to see both sides.

[34swtns]

You should be. You think the Bears are going to continue dealing with a convict? Perhaps you didn't...think...about...that.

Perhaps, I.......do......not.......care.

I'll go where the jerseys go, regardless. They're with JO Sports so that's where my money will continue to go.

[schubert1970]

See, I feel differently - I feel we should let him (them) post on here to explain themselves. Could be ground breaking. We all know with the legal work still going on they wouldn't post, but wouldn't you love to have JO and others come on here and discuss the situation with us?

I know it would never happen, but barring JO from posting doesn't really accomplish anything - They weren't going to come on here and post anyway, so if we left their account accessible to be able to post, maybe someday they would come on here and clear the air.

I don't believe anything relating to Penn State should be related to the sports memorabilia investigation - One was a sick crime that is so unbelievable that comparing that situation with a sports memorabilia while collar crime is not a good comparison.

If you wish to compare the situations, let's be clear - Joe Pa and even the accused in that case can come on television and other media outlets and give their views on the situation. Why not let those involved come on here and offer up for open questioning? Even a statement without reply could be something positive somewhere down the road.

Geezzzz. Forget the Penn State example. How about this.

You think the SEC would allow Bernie Madoff to work with funds again? They probably pulled any licenses he may have had. Seems like common sense. You don't let the guy keep ripping people off.

The analogy was its not noble thing to do something so obvious.

[schubert1970]

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=46843&page=40

So where are the people saying everyone was crazy because there was no proof? Apparently there was enough proof to become a snitch! Which means they have even more DIRECT information on forgeries which he will be giving up to the feds in exchange for a lesser sentence. Good to know this wasnt a one time thing, just one time they got caught.

Agreed. Crickets.....

[otismalibu]

Nothing is really going to change. No one gets up in the morning trying to figure out a way to better the hobby. Everyone just wants to better their collection.


This entire hobby is smoke, mirrors & deception.

- equipment guys sneak items out the backdoor.
- issued jerseys are sold as gamers
- blanks are customized and sold as issued or gamers
- tags are changed
- marker is removed/added
- game used inscriptions added
- nameplates changed when scrubs and stars share the same number
- letters, letters and more letters written
- use added


Even on this board, probably half the monthly pickups are really sale items. If you get a bad item you can go public and hope for a refund, but more likely you quietly dump it with no mention of the red flags.

Can the seller convince the buyer that this is real use, that this documentation is solid, that this blurry area with the red circle is a photo match. It's always got to possibly be a piece from this big game, or this MVP season or this playoff.

Add all the info that helps, omit what hurts. When was the last time an auction stated that the jersey was photo matched to a game where the QB tossed 3 picks or the MLB star went 0-4.

Just like Hillstreet Blues...let's be careful out there. ;)

[34swtns]

What really cracks me up and fires up my urge to continue dropping turds in your collective punchbowl is how absolutely invested in this whole thing you all make yourselves out to be. :rolleyes:

You're all in such a mob-infused lather over this whole thing and I know for a concrete fact the vast majority of you have never done a nickel's worth of business with JO Sports.

Your misplaced level of concern is quite frankly pathetic and speaks volumes. If this is that big of a deal to you here's what I would suggest:

Back away from the computer!
Reassess your life and the set of priorities you've established for yourself and most importantly the order in which they are placed.

I'm not going to continue monitoring this thread from this point forward because, honestly, my opinion is the only one that really matters to me.
And again, "balls to say that" comes into play.

Enjoy your banter and have a lovely Thanksgiving.

[ChrisCavalier]

Okay folks, this thread is obviously taking a turn back down a road that was already traveled previously. Please focus your posts on things that will be beneficial to the hobby or this thread will be locked as well.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Chris

[sylbry]

What really cracks me up and fires up my urge to continue dropping turds in your collective punchbowl is how absolutely invested in this whole thing you all make yourselves out to be. :rolleyes:

You're all in such a mob-infused lather over this whole thing and I know for a concrete fact the vast majority of you have never done a nickel's worth of business with JO Sports.

Your misplaced level of concern is quite frankly pathetic and speaks volumes. If this is that big of a deal to you here's what I would suggest:

Back away from the computer!
Reassess your life and the set of priorities you've established for yourself and most importantly the order in which they are placed.

I'm not going to continue monitoring this thread from this point forward because, honestly, my opinion is the only one that really matters to me.
And again, "balls to say that" comes into play.

Enjoy your banter and have a lovely Thanksgiving.

My only concern is that those who commit fraud get what is coming to them. Nothing more, nothing less. And it is obvious you do not share that same concern.

Good day.

[trsent]

Keep thinking your JO jerseys are so great and remember this when you sell it GUILTY OF FRAUD.

34swtns isn't "Guilty of Fraud".

They may be guilty of making posts similar to a school-yard bully chanting "Na na na, na, na, na" while sticking their thumbs in their ears, waiving their hands and sticking out their tongue, but they are not guilty of fraud.

It's too bad the forum doesn't know what exactly the issues were with JO to cause them to plea bargain. When Steve Jensen was arrested, there were three jerseys that were published by many media outlets that were behind the reason for the arrest so we had an idea what happened there.

With this situation, it appears no one who posts on this forum, myself included, knows the exact details of what merchandise was tampered with to make any statements about who has good items and who has questionable items.

Someone posted a jersey JO is currently selling with issues of being issued to a player as it couldn't have been game used, but that is not a crime if they correct it.

I'm going to guess that if JO is still selling memorabilia they are keeping to only stuff obtained from the teams because who would be stupid enough to sell altered/distorted/tampered items while your sentencing awaits?

[SaintsGeaux]

34swtns isn't "Guilty of Fraud".

They may be guilty of making posts similar to a school-yard bully chanting "Na na na, na, na, na" while sticking their thumbs in their ears, waiving their hands and sticking out their tongue, but they are not guilty of fraud.

It's too bad the forum doesn't know what exactly the issues were with JO to cause them to plea bargain. When Steve Jensen was arrested, there were three jerseys that were published by many media outlets that were behind the reason for the arrest so we had an idea what happened there.

With this situation, it appears no one who posts on this forum, myself included, knows the exact details of what merchandise was tampered with to make any statements about who has good items and who has questionable items.

Someone posted a jersey JO is currently selling with issues of being issued to a player as it couldn't have been game used, but that is not a crime if they correct it.

I'm going to guess that if JO is still selling memorabilia they are keeping to only stuff obtained from the teams because who would be stupid enough to sell altered/distorted/tampered items while your sentencing awaits?

Why are you trying to take those words and push that on 34Sweetness? It is any Jarrod Oldridge item that carries that stigma.

[SaintsGeaux]

Mr. Alpert, do you believe if you own a jersey you purchased from JO Sports and you decide to sell it where you don't have a photomatch, should you morally disclose it was purchased from JO or suppress that information?

I personally believe all JO items are suspect without a conclusive photomatch. Using Otismalibu's statement not "blurry area with the red circle is a photo match".

[trsent]

Mr. Alpert, do you believe if you own a jersey you purchased from JO Sports and you decide to sell it where you don't have a photomatch, should you morally disclose it was purchased from JO or suppress that information?

I personally believe all JO items are suspect without a conclusive photomatch. Using Otismalibu's statement not "blurry area with the red circle is a photo match".

Don't all JO jerseys have an inventory tag with the JO website on it? At this time I do not believe I own a single JO jersey, but if I was selling something from them, I wouldn't hide their inventory tag. It is what it is.

If someone removes their inventory tag, it is not my call if they have to tell the next buyer it came from JO. Each person can make their own moral decision. No one can tell the world what to do in these situations. It is each person's choice. I don't even know exact items that got JO in trouble in the first place so I have no idea what items are in question since exact items were never published. Just a vague referral to many items in the posted court documents.

Please do not turn this on me. The conversation is getting off track once again and one guy is laughing at the forum stating he'll still buy stuff from JO and others and stating that anything ever bought from JO is suspect.

Everything is suspect from everyone and if you do your homework you should learn about each item.

Please do not bait me. I'm just trying to be reasonable and both sides on this one are making posts that are not helping our education of the situation.

[SaintsGeaux]

Don't all JO jerseys have an inventory tag with the JO website on it? At this time I do not believe I own a single JO jersey, but if I was selling something from them, I wouldn't hide their inventory tag. It is what it is.

If someone removes their inventory tag, it is not my call if they have to tell the next buyer it came from JO. Each person can make their own moral decision. No one can tell the world what to do in these situations. It is each person's choice. I don't even know exact items that got JO in trouble in the first place so I have no idea what items are in question since exact items were never published. Just a vague referral to many items in the posted court documents.

Please do not turn this on me. The conversation is getting off track once again and one guy is laughing at the forum stating he'll still buy stuff from JO and others and stating that anything ever bought from JO is suspect.

Everything is suspect from everyone and if you do your homework you should learn about each item.

Please do not bait me. I'm just trying to be reasonable and both sides on this one are making posts that are not helping our education of the situation.

I honestly thought you were baiting me and twisting my words in Post 71. Why don't we not address each other again because I don't have time to twist words with you. You have the 2,900+ posts and as a Senior Member I wanted your opinion just that simple.. Thank you kindly for your response.

[freddiefreeman5]

What really cracks me up and fires up my urge to continue dropping turds in your collective punchbowl is how absolutely invested in this whole thing you all make yourselves out to be. :rolleyes:

You're all in such a mob-infused lather over this whole thing and I know for a concrete fact the vast majority of you have never done a nickel's worth of business with JO Sports.

Your misplaced level of concern is quite frankly pathetic and speaks volumes. If this is that big of a deal to you here's what I would suggest:

Back away from the computer!
Reassess your life and the set of priorities you've established for yourself and most importantly the order in which they are placed.

I'm not going to continue monitoring this thread from this point forward because, honestly, my opinion is the only one that really matters to me.
And again, "balls to say that" comes into play.

Enjoy your banter and have a lovely Thanksgiving.


I have never bought from JO Sports.
Do I have the right to be concerned for the wound they have inflicted on this hobby?
Do I have the right to try to rid this hobby of a businnes that would rip off my fellow hobbiest?
Do I have the right to comment on their shady business practices?
Do I have the right to be disgusted with what they have done?

I think I do. I think all of us have the right and the obligation to expose these people for what they are and to warn our fellow hobbiest about them.

[allstarsplus]

I know for a concrete fact the vast majority of you have never done a nickel's worth of business with JO Sports.

Interesting statement. How can you possibly know that? Do you work for JO Sports?

[David]

One can argue about ethics, or value, or Bears collecting or photomatching or whatever, but material that is known to come from JO will have less value on the market. You can think that's fair or unfair or you don't think that way or you think that's unjustified, but invariably many buyers will not pay as much for a jersey from someone who has been convicted of fraud in the selling of game used. Many will refuse to bid on an item at all. That's just the way it will be, and you're dillusional if you think otherwise. Market value, re-sale value isn't just what you or I in our ivory towers chat boards think of this or that, but how others bidders and buyers value the material.

[David]

And I'd say to the Bears fan, the market value IS based on what others think-- and what are they willing to pay. So, now or later, it does effect your own personal pocketbook what others think of material purchased through JO.

[Preston]

"Originally Posted by 34swtnshttp://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=275193#post275193)
I know for a concrete fact the vast majority of you have never done a nickel's worth of business with JO Sports."

Speaking of laughable...

I've personally purchased three "game used" jerseys from JO - one was a Carlos Rogers "photomatched" to a November 2008 game v. the Steelers (I have since sold this one to make room for new purchases), one is a Daunte Culpepper from 2004 with NO wear (they swear it's game used but I knew it was issued - but for the price and "name value" of the player I couldn't pass it up), and one is a Terdell Sands Raiders game worn jersey w/ actual hit marks and repairs (seeing as Terdell is by no means anything remotely close to a star, I'd like to believe that the alterations are legit - why commit fraud with the Terdell Sands of the world when you can sell fake Tim Tebow gamers and countless other fake stars?)

Have I purchased something from them? YES

Am I concerned that they've been busted for altering/faking/committing FRAUD - WHICH IS A FEDERAL OFFENSE? YES

Do I think the game used world would be better with them OUT of the picture
and NFL teams marketing their OWN game used stuff? YES

Would I purchase anything else FROM JO? NOPE, unless I could document/photomatch/etc and the price was right b/c a JO COA now carries the same stigma and "worth" as a Lou Lampson letter (and we KNOW how highly regarded HE is)

[SaintsGeaux]

Interesting statement. How can you possibly know that? Do you work for JO Sports?

Mr. Lang, for that statement of his to be true he would need personal access to JO's customer list and the true identities of GUU members in order to crosscheck. As a moderator, do you have knowledge through the GUU relationship with JO, was JO provided with the GUU mailing lists and user names as that would tell one through a database crosscheck who is a customer or not.

This is getting more troubling to think a criminal element may have access to our registration and personal information.

Please respond, thank you.

[ChrisCavalier]

Mr. Lang, for that statement of his to be true he would need personal access to JO's customer list and the true identities of GUU members in order to crosscheck. As a moderator, do you have knowledge through the GUU relationship with JO, was JO provided with the GUU mailing lists and user names as that would tell one through a database crosscheck who is a customer or not.

This is getting more troubling to think a criminal element may have access to our registration and personal information.

Please respond, thank you.
No, nobody has any access to any of the names in the GUU database.

This thread, like its predecessors, is beginning to serve no purpose but for people to try to create conspiracy theories regarding things that do not exist.

This is the last time I will make this statement, if this thread is not used to try to serve as something beneficial to the hobby it will be closed.

-Chris

[SaintsGeaux]

No, nobody has any access to any of the names in the GUU database.

This thread, like its predecessors, is beginning to serve no purpose but for people to try to create conspiracy theories regarding things that do not exist.

This is the last time I will make this statement, if this thread is not used to try to serve as something beneficial to the hobby it will be closed.

-Chris

Mr. Cavalier, thank you for the response. You say no access to the names in the database, do they have the email addresses? Based on 34swtns concrete factual information, there must be a way he has crosschecked your GUU database.

As the owner of this site, if this doesn't trouble you, I will drop my concerns. I am the type that "opts out" and is on the DoNotCall lists for privacy purposes.

[ChrisCavalier]

Mr. Cavalier, thank you for the response. You say no access to the names in the database, do they have the email addresses? Based on 34swtns concrete factual information, there must be a way he has crosschecked your GUU database.

As the owner of this site, if this doesn't trouble you, I will drop my concerns. I am the type that "opts out" and is on the DoNotCall lists for privacy purposes.
No, no one has access to the email addresses either.

I do not know about 34swtns' claims about knowing facts but I can tell you he doesn't have any information coming from GUU. I am guessing he may know some of the posters directly as the basis for his claims. However, I can assure you he has no information from us.

-Chris

[SaintsGeaux]

No, no one has access to the email addresses either.

I do not know about 34swtns' claims about knowing facts but I can tell you he doesn't have any information coming from GUU. I am guessing he may know some of the posters directly as the basis for his claims. However, I can assure you he has no information from us.

-Chris

Your honesty and transparency on this matter is appreciated. I've purchased from JO and clearly others have and unfortunately have to agree with David in Post #78 including how I now perceive my own collection.

[matt]

I come to praise Chris C, not to bury him. I have been on this forum for many years, and have learned a HUGE amount from it.

Someone posted a while ago that

"No one gets up in the morning trying to figure out a way to better the hobby. Everyone just wants to better their collection."

Actually, one guy did do that when Chris took on the responsibility to run this forum. Now maybe I am missing something, but I have never paid much money to be on this forum, and I don't think that many of you have paid much money to be on here. I do not think he is making a ton of money off this forum or is engaging in some suspicious partnering with companies like JO Sports. I respect him for trying to create an actual business in various ways without losing integrity.

So why do folks jump on him as if he is a media mogul power broker like Rupert Murdoch every time something interesting happens, looking for a diabolical plot, retribution or vindication. The guy is giving us all a place we can discuss the hobby we love FOR FREE if we want. If he decides it is time to ban someone, he has every right, and the opposite is also true.

To me, the whole point of the forum is that we all know how murky all this hobby is, and this is a place to sort out the good from the bad together and learn. Let's get back to that and thank Chris for what he has done for the hobby.

And no, I am not Chris's friend, business associate or anything else. Just a member like you.

Matt Miller

[masp3392]

TIFWIW ... I was told by a associate from JO sports that there will be a new company that is buying out JO and part of the agreement is that all merchandise must be certified directly from the team.

Names will be kept private, just passing along info

[frikativ54]

TIFWIW ... I was told by a associate from JO sports that there will be a new company that is buying out JO and part of the agreement is that all merchandise must be certified directly from the team.

Names will be kept private, just passing along info

Interesting development, if true.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Would I purchase anything else FROM JO? NOPE, unless I could document/photomatch/etc and the price was right b/c a JO COA now carries the same stigma and "worth" as a Lou Lampson letter (and we KNOW how highly regarded HE is)

In all fairness, Lampson offers a "letter of opinion" and has never been charged with a federal case. I don't know of any questions that Lampson has personally altered a piece or added wear. I think it is truly unfair to group Lou Lampson along with some admitted felons.

[schubert1970]

In all fairness, Lampson offers a "letter of opinion" and has never been charged with a federal case. I don't know of any questions that Lampson has personally altered a piece or added wear. I think it is truly unfair to group Lou Lampson along with some admitted felons.

You're correct. Lou's LOA is more valuable than JO's. That really makes my point. Who would have ever thought. Thanks!

[SkubeBats]

I'm just glad that the FBI is standing up for us and busting the guys doing our hobby wrong. THANK YOU!!

I also want to say that I'm glad to see that Chris has made sure that none of these guys will be able to be members or be able to post on here anymore.

Just remember to do your home work before you buy any item. You just never know.

[Eric]

Interesting note in the Cardboard Connection's coverage of the story

"When the story first broke, Brian Gray, owner of Leaf, left a comment on the Cardboard Connection's Facebook page saying that he had never bought from any of the men charged."

http://www.cardboardconnection.com/news/plead-guilty-fake-sports-memorabilia

Can be found here

[both-teams-played-hard]

I hope this is the beginning of the end for "game used jersey" cards.

[trsent]

I also want to say that I'm glad to see that Chris has made sure that none of these guys will be able to be members or be able to post on here anymore.

I really can't believe you think it is punishment that guys involved on the wrong end of a federal investigation can't post on this forum. I'd really love to let them post and answer questions and maybe shed some light on their situation, especially since it appears many of them are still actively running their businesses.

I think barring them from posting on the forum is giving them an excuse not to communicate with the hobby and hopefully explain exactly what happened and why they did punishable crimes. Barring them gives them an excuse not to shed light on their crimes and what they are doing to clean up their act since they are still active members of business.

Just the way I see it. None of the six want to post on this forum I'm sure so now we are giving them an excuse not to respond publicly.


In all fairness, Lampson offers a "letter of opinion" and has never been charged with a federal case. I don't know of any questions that Lampson has personally altered a piece or added wear. I think it is truly unfair to group Lou Lampson along with some admitted felons.

Someone said a Lou Lampson letter is more valuable than a JO letter.

I think both are what they always have been - A letter you need to do your homework on before buying the item attached with it. Just in the past people thought a JO letter meant you didn't have to do your homework and now you do.

[Canseco44]

I agree with Joel that I would love to hear what these guys have to say. I also believe Chris did the right thing by banning them. Maybe a couple of the moderators could try and make contact with them at some point and post their comments or explanations through the moderators. I have seen this done in the past with other banned members. I also agree with Joel that banning them gave them an automatic out from speaking to us at all.

So maybe through a moderator or someone else on the forum, we can get an explanation from these guys.

[trsent]

I agree with Joel that I would love to hear what these guys have to say. I also believe Chris did the right thing by banning them. Maybe a couple of the moderators could try and make contact with them at some point and post their comments or explanations through the moderators. I have seen this done in the past with other banned members. I also agree with Joel that banning them gave them an automatic out from speaking to us at all.

So maybe through a moderator or someone else on the forum, we can get an explanation from these guys.

Finally! You and I agree on something!

I doubt any of them will talk or post for a while. I thought in the files posted by the government with each plea agreement it said they wouldn't be sentenced until May, 2012. I hope that date it right but you can get the idea.

[schubert1970]

I agree with Joel that I would love to hear what these guys have to say. I also believe Chris did the right thing by banning them. Maybe a couple of the moderators could try and make contact with them at some point and post their comments or explanations through the moderators. I have seen this done in the past with other banned members. I also agree with Joel that banning them gave them an automatic out from speaking to us at all.

So maybe through a moderator or someone else on the forum, we can get an explanation from these guys.

I gotta think these guys are more worried about their lives than explaining their actions to us forum members. Also, I would think their attorney's would want them to refrain from making any public statements.

Look what happened to that Penn State coach when he spoke to Costas. At first I couldn't understand why his attorney allowed him to do the interview, but the attorney himself got a 18year old client of his pregnant when he was 49, so Sandusky and him must be members of the same club.

[trsent]

I gotta think these guys are more worried about their lives than explaining their actions to us forum members. Also, I would think their attorney's would want them to refrain from making any public statements.

Look what happened to that Penn State coach when he spoke to Costas. At first I couldn't understand why his attorney allowed him to do the interview, but the attorney himself got a 18year old client of his pregnant when he was 49, so Sandusky and him must be members of the same club.

Sure, your first paragraph is correct. No one doubts that, but why not have this forum be a place open to them to explain their actions and what they are doing to make corrections with their life/business when they are ready to discuss it?

The second paragraph - Why do people keep comparing the situation with a child molester to this one? They are like apples and limes. No one cares about an attorney who got a woman 31 years his minor pregnant. It doesn't help the discussions at hand and just takes the good out of this discussion.

And that is what I have to say with my 2967th post on the new Game Used Universe Forum. (The old forum posts were not carried over)

[schubert1970]

Sure, your first paragraph is correct. No one doubts that, but why not have this forum be a place open to them to explain their actions and what they are doing to make corrections with their life/business when they are ready to discuss it?

The second paragraph - Why do people keep comparing the situation with a child molester to this one? They are like apples and limes. No one cares about an attorney who got a woman 31 years his minor pregnant. It doesn't help the discussions at hand and just takes the good out of this discussion.

And that is what I have to say with my 2967th post on the new Game Used Universe Forum. (The old forum posts were not carried over)

I wasn't comparing the crime, only that I couldn't understand why his attorney would let him speak in public. That was all.

[Dewey2007]

Now whether you bought from JO or not doesn't matter to me. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I have purchased jerseys from JO and it was obviously troubling to me as a collector to see his name included among those charged. With that said, I don't doubt that any of the jerseys I purchased from him are not the real deal or have been possibly doctored to be photomatched (which is ludicrous and deserves its own thread one of these days) like someone has suggested. Not trying to make myself feel better. Just stating what I believe. I'm just glad that the feds are doing what they're doing in an effort to help our hobby.

Lastly, I think because we considered JO one of our own that makes his involvement in this mean so much more to many. He was active on this site, unlike any of the others that I'm aware of, and I sense that is why more vitriol has been thrown his way then any of the others who were charged. I haven't read hardly any comments about any of the other 5 charged. It makes me wonder how invested people would have really been in all of this if JO had not been involved as opposed to 6 people who had no real connection to GUU.

Just my two cents...happy turkey day everyone.

[Eric]

Of the six charged, we know
Jarrod Oldridge is still selling game used items with JOSports and running an auction
Mitchell Schumacher is still selling game used items on ebay under the name masauction- in fact he sold something as recently as 11/20

Any idea if
Bernie Gernay, Eric Inselberg, Brad Horne and Brad Wells are still in the industry as sellers, consignors or auctioneers?

Here's the most recent posting i could find about Brad Wells' Historic Auctions
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/historic-auctions-st-petersburg-florida-c274963.html

[mickeymbz]

In all fairness, Lampson offers a "letter of opinion" and has never been charged with a federal case. I don't know of any questions that Lampson has personally altered a piece or added wear. I think it is truly unfair to group Lou Lampson along with some admitted felons.
how is it unfair when he, a supposed expert, signs his name away on anything and everything for sake of making a buck..NO, he has not been charged or admitted to wrongdoings.... yet what he does for that buck, is done INTENTIONALLY for the sake of making that buck,, he KNOWS he has no clue whether that shirt(s) are authentic or not. my guess is he doesnt give a crap..just the buck he makes is all that matters

[both-teams-played-hard]

how is it unfair when he, a supposed expert, signs his name away on anything and everything for sake of making a buck..NO, he has not been charged or admitted to wrongdoings.... yet what he does for that buck, is done INTENTIONALLY for the sake of making that buck,, he KNOWS he has no clue whether that shirt(s) are authentic or not. my guess is he doesnt give a crap..just the buck he makes is all that matters
I understand your point. But it's damn difficult to judge someone's intentions.

[schubert1970]

how is it unfair when he, a supposed expert, signs his name away on anything and everything for sake of making a buck..NO, he has not been charged or admitted to wrongdoings.... yet what he does for that buck, is done INTENTIONALLY for the sake of making that buck,, he KNOWS he has no clue whether that shirt(s) are authentic or not. my guess is he doesnt give a crap..just the buck he makes is all that matters

Glad you understood the point I was trying to make.

[joelsabi]

In all fairness, Lampson offers a "letter of opinion" and has never been charged with a federal case. I don't know of any questions that Lampson has personally altered a piece or added wear. I think it is truly unfair to group Lou Lampson along with some admitted felons.

I am pretty certain that Lampson did have his letter of opinion on the ARod jersey that was mentioned in the arrest at the National this year. That was a federal case too. It is common knowledge that Lampson writes the LOA for Vintage Authentics,at least for many ARod jerseys. the 7.5 he gave that particular jersey is the same rating scale lampson used on previous LOAs for early ARod Mariner jerseys for Vintage Authentics. Other ratings given to ARod jerseys were 8. 8.5, and 9.5.

[b.heagy]

I wonder if another door will open on the game used bat cards and cut signatures that the card companies used..... will be interesting to see what else unfolds.

[sportscentury]

If I owned and planned to sell or trade a photomatched jersey that originated from one of the named dealers, I would just submit it to MeiGray for an independent photomatch evaluation/confirmation and photomatch LOA. If MeiGray confirmed the match, this would surely remove any concern a buyer might have about the jersey and/or its original LOA.

Just a thought.

[Eric]

Mitchell Schumacher has now pleaded guilty as well. That's 4 of the 6, leaving Inselberg and Wells

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/fourth-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-mail-fraud-charges/

[Eric]

NY Daily News

Mitchell Schumacher pleads guilty to mail fraud Wednesday in Illinois federal court

Charge stems from a four-year investigation
BY Michael O’keeffe
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

Originally Published: Thursday, November 24 2011, 2:00 AM
Updated: Thursday, November 24 2011, 2:00 AM

Mitchell Schumacher acknowledges that he purchased jerseys from retail outlets and altered them to increase the price.

Another sports memorabilia dealer accused of creating fake “game-used” jerseys that were then sold to trading card companies and collectors pleaded guilty to mail fraud Wednesday in Illinois federal court.

Mitchell Schumacher of MS Sports pleaded guilty to mail fraud, acknowledging that he purchased jerseys from retail outlets and other sources, and then altered them to make the appear they had been used by pro athletes in games, substantially increasing their value.

The charge stems from a four-year investigation conducted by the Chicago FBI and other federal agencies. Executives from some of the most prominent companies in sports memorabilia – including Legendary Auctions, Grey Flannel, Professional Sports Authenticators and now-defunct Mastro Auctions – have been questioned at shows in recent years.

Schumacher’s plea agreement says he has agreed to cooperate, which suggests that he could be used as a witness against other memorabilia industry executives.

Court documents say Schumacher would alter the jerseys to make them appear game-used, then sell them to South Carolina dealer Bradley Horne, who sold them to card companies and other buyers.

Horne and memorabilia dealers Bernard Gernay of Howell, N.J., and Jarrod Oldridge of Las Vegas pleaded guilty to mail fraud on Monday.

The pleas raise questions about the true value and integrity of high-end cards that include threads or swaths of cloth cut out of athletes’ jerseys.

Schumacher was a target in Operation Foul Ball, an investigation into sports memorabilia conducted by the Chicago FBI more than 10 years ago. He pleaded guilty in 2000 and received three years probation and was fined $30,000.

Prosecutors say Schumacher could serve between 33 to 41 months in prison. He was one of six dealers charged last month with selling counterfeit game-used jerseys to trading card companies.

The defendants also include Eric Inselberg, a New Jersey dealer linked to a North Carolina warm-up jersey sold at a 2007 Mastro Auction for $11,000. Mastro executives claimed the jersey had once belonged to Michael Jordan.

As the Daily News first reported, authenticators and collectors said the jersey was an obvious fake in the weeks leading up to the auction, which was conducted at the National Sports Collectors Convention in Cleveland.



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/mitchell-schumacher-pleads-guilty-mail-fraud-wednesday-illinois-federal-court-article-1.982256#ixzz1egeyUsrA

[lakeerie92]

Schumacher’s plea agreement says he has agreed to cooperate, which suggests that he could be used as a witness against other memorabilia industry executives.

Could this potentially mean that there are more people that they will go after?

[xpress34]

Mitchell Schumacher has now pleaded guilty as well. That's 4 of the 6, leaving Inselberg and Wells

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/fourth-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-mail-fraud-charges/

As I mentioned earlier in this thread:


It also appears that even though Mitch Schumacher was trying to make a Plea (Criminal Information as well), the Feds have as yet to reach a Plea Deal with him - maybe because of his past:


In addition to Oldridge, Horne and Gernay, Wisconsin resident Mitchell Schumacher was also charged by information with mail fraud. No plea deal involving Schumacher was announced. He pled guilty to frauds and swindles as part of Operation Foul Ball in 2000 and received three years of probation and was fined $30,000.

It's possible the Feds are going to hit him harder because of his past involvement in the same crime.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

- Smitty

4th Dealer Pleads Guilty (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/fourth-dealer-pleads-guilty-to-mail-fraud-charges/)

From that article:


In 2000, Schumacher was caught in a similar scheme during the FBI's Operation Foul Ball. He could face a tougher sentence because of that.

Other notable statements in the article:


Prosecutors say the jersey scam was going on as late as the middle of this year.


They also indicate that Schumacher and others involved in the scheme provided phony certificates of authenticity to buyers

The above statement is more damning than the actual alterations because it makes it abundantly clear that they had ever intent to fully present these jerseys as GU.

I hope they all give up other fraudulent dealers and auction houses and that they ALL end up in jail!!!


Like the others who've pleaded guilty, however, Schumacher has agreed to offer information the government likely believes will be helpful in nabbing other dealers its ongoing investigation of the sports memorabilia industry.

Other articles including the FBI page state that there are MINIMUM sentencing standards that have to be met for these charges (plea or otherwise) and I believe it is somewhere around 33 to 41 MONTHS in Jail!

Only time will tell where this takes us!

- Smitty

[xpress34]

Schumacher's Plea:

Schumacher's Plea (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Schumacherguilty11.pdf)

His is more intense than Jarrod's....

- Smitty

[SkubeBats]

Some of you guys still are missing the point. These 6 guys just didn't sell their fake jerseys to just card companies they sold them to the PUBLIC!! So there is jersey's out there that are faked and come from these guys. So who knows what jerseys are good and which one's are fake. I won't be taking any chances. If I go to buy something and this items it tied to anyone of these guys I will have to pass because you never know. DO your homewrok........


It's also nice to find out that this scam was still going on during 2011.

[Trublubrucru]

Anyone have a picture or mugshot of Mitchell Schumacher? He didn't learn his lesson on the first Federal conviction, he'll probably get involved again. I'd like to know what this dude looks like, because I'm sure he walks among us at shows, stadium sales and other events in Wisconsin.

[SaintsGeaux]

Another benefit to the hobby will be these 4 dealers giving the FBI key information on other dirty dealers. Let's hope further arrests occur as we all know there is more dirty dealers and auction houses out there.

[camarokids]

Look what happened to that Penn State coach when he spoke to Costas. At first I couldn't understand why his attorney allowed him to do the interview, but the attorney himself got a 18year old client of his pregnant when he was 49, so Sandusky and him must be members of the same club.

One difference, the attorney got the sex & age right on who to put his organ into.
Sandusky was doing under aged little boys!

[mickeymbz]

Schumacher's Plea:

Schumacher's Plea (http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Schumacherguilty11.pdf)

His is more intense than Jarrod's....

- Smitty

There is a will known factual story concerning Mitchell Schumacher that occured back in the 90's. In 1992 there existed no authentic or procut jerseys of NBA players available to the public. Mitchell Schumacher approached Champion and purchased numerous 92/93 blank shirts with extra body lengths. Names and numbers of star NBA players were stitched on and sold to the public. I remember talking with many people, collectors and dealers, who i met thru SCD who warned me of a list of star players to stay away from that year b/c of the endless amounts of forgeries that were flooded to the market. I think this is the first trouble that Mitchell Schumacher was involved in. This story is known in the collecting world and stands as warning for collectors to do their research. Mitchell Schumacher was already known to deal in bogus stuff yet many collectors still chose to deal with him. Not defending Mitchell Schumacher in any way, but collectors kept this mongrel alive by dealing with him despite his obvious blemished past.

[MarkakisMania]

There is a will known factual story concerning Mitchell Schumacher that occured back in the 90's. In 1992 there existed no authentic or procut jerseys of NBA players available to the public. Mitchell Schumacher approached Champion and purchased numerous 92/93 blank shirts with extra body lengths. Names and numbers of star NBA players were stitched on and sold to the public. I remember talking with many people, collectors and dealers, who i met thru SCD who warned me of a list of star players to stay away from that year b/c of the endless amounts of forgeries that were flooded to the market. I think this is the first trouble that Mitchell Schumacher was involved in. This story is known in the collecting world and stands as warning for collectors to do their research. Mitchell Schumacher was already known to deal in bogus stuff yet many collectors still chose to deal with him. Not defending Mitchell Schumacher in any way, but collectors kept this mongrel alive by dealing with him despite his obvious blemished past.

Isn't this the whole point though??? It is in fact the exact point I and other posters have been trying to make. Schmacher had another chance because people kept buying from this guy after he was caught once before. The same thing applies to Bernie Gernay as he was caught selling bad stuff in the past and buyers kept buying and now he is caught again. This is the point we have been trying to make to the Bears man and some of the other people who keep saying I don't care as long as I get mine basically screw everyone else. If other collectors get ripped off that is not my problem. Well, in fact it is your problem because we have now seen multiple cases where guys are caught once, buyers keep going back to them keeping them in business and look at that caught again years later doing the same or similar shady business deals. It is this mentality that continues to keep these guys in business. YOU the buyer keep the crooks in business end of story.

I posted this on a previous thread why is anybody suprised by this behavior at all. I have to admit you have to have some serious ba%$s to keep doctoring stuff once you have been caught once by the Feds and you keep on doing it. How stupid is that. But again, anything from sheer greed, trying to put food on the table, stupidity, lack of any morals etc. lead to people doing the unimaginable in the name of a quick buck.

I heard someone say about photo matching items. This is such a narrow focused possibility that it would exclude a great many people from actually collecting. My focus has increasingly become vintage Orioles, Redskins, Senators etc. stuff from the 70's and back into the 40's and 50's, 60's etc. The possibility of photo matching any of this stuff is somewhere between slim and none. Unless you focus on current stuff from the major sports from say the past 3 - 5 years you are pretty much out of luck with photo matching. I remember when I was focusing on more recent stuff a couple of years back from say the late 90's it was almost impossible to photo match this stuff due to lack of high res, and just general lack of overall photos nevermind stuff from 30 plus years ago, forget about that.

If you can photo match your stuff, great for you, but for many collectors this is next to impossible especially if your focus if vintage anything forget about it. For those of you who only focus on modern NFL, NHL etc. great but for the rest of us, that is just not a realistic possibility.

I think it also gets away from the point that you continue to support a known felon. Each person has to make a decision what they are or are not comfortable doing but I can honestly say my personal decision in regard to doing business with an unethical company or person is that I simply will not do business with them. I have not nor will I ever do business with AMI, Vintage Authentics, Coaches Corner, Brad Wells etc. just to name a few. I made that decision a number of years ago and despite the fact that I have seen several good products that I would have liked to have had go through their auction houses and businesses in the past, I refuse in anyway to support these establishments or companies. I would rather put the hobby first and do what little I can to put bad people out of business than add something to my collection. My choice, each person needs to decide for themselves. Several of those companies have never even had any federal charges or otherwise filed against them that I mentioned above, however we all know the rumors in the industry about their shady dealings etc. and I simply refuse to support any of them and never ever have. It did not surprise me in the least that Steve Jensen was arrested at the Natiional. Vintage Authentics has been pushing questionable items through their auction house for years they just finally got caught. How some of these other house have not been caught to this point is beyond me. Perhaps this will all lead to more arrest as others have mentioned and we can only hope,

Jeb