PDA

View Full Version : '89 Brett Butler World Series uni - if the auto is fake, what hope is there for the uni?



TNP777
11-02-2011, 02:13 AM
I've got Butler's '88 Topps contract, and his auto hasn't really changed since then. Jersey has an autograph that says "Brett Butler", but it sure wasns't Butler than signed it. Begs the question - is the uni even legit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brett-Butler-1989-SF-Giants-Game-Used-Autod-World-Series-Jersey-/170721840795?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bfd08e9b#ht_500wt_1413

"auto" from jersey
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Brett-Butler-1989-SF-Giants-Game-Used-Autod-World-Series-Jersey-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$(KGrHqV,!lEE6pthV22-BOsL5QNKJ!~~60_12.JPG

'88 Topps contract
http://home.comcast.net/~brettbutlercards/butlertoppscontract.jpg

an in-person autograph from a couple summers ago at a Fresno Grizzlies game
http://home.comcast.net/~brettbutlercards/autographs/police83auto_F22.jpg

dnrapp
11-02-2011, 08:08 AM
I have noticed that some player autographs are different than their signatures. I did not see in the auction when the jersey was signed. You need to find a 20 autograph to compare it to the jersey. With all the time that has past since his playing days his autograph and signature could have becone one in the same.

cjw
11-02-2011, 09:08 AM
I am not disagreeing with the OP, but who would forge a Brett Butler auto??? Can't be much value in that?

legaleagle92481
11-02-2011, 09:28 AM
I am not disagreeing with the OP, but who would forge a Brett Butler auto??? Can't be much value in that?

To give legitimacy to the uniform.

TNP777
11-02-2011, 11:09 AM
I have noticed that some player autographs are different than their signatures. I did not see in the auction when the jersey was signed. You need to find a 20 autograph to compare it to the jersey. With all the time that has past since his playing days his autograph and signature could have becone one in the same.
I understand your point, and have seen examples of this in some players. However, there have been at some recognizable similarities as the years progressed.

I own dozens of items (mostly cards) that he's signed through the years. The autograph on the contract in '88 is very similar to the way he signs today. I've seen hundreds of autographed cards, 8 x 10s & baseballs come up in my searches on eBay and they're all very similar. I see no reason why he'd sign the jersey any differently than he's signed other items, including the two jerseys he's signed for me in person.

cjw
11-02-2011, 11:38 AM
To give legitimacy to the uniform.

A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.

cjw
11-02-2011, 11:43 AM
I should clarify. I have no idea if the auto or jersey are authentic and after a second look at the listing, a WS jersey would potentially have more than $100 in value. I was glib earlier, however I dont believe that the auto adds much if anything to the jersey and if faked on an authentic jersey it just takes away.

TNP777
11-02-2011, 11:45 AM
A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.
now, now - no need to disparage the desirability of a man's autograph. That said, I believe your $5 price is on the high side. :D

legaleagle92481
11-02-2011, 11:46 AM
A $5 auto gives legitimacy to a $100 jersey? That's a stretch.

Alot of collectors, especially newer collectors take the approach of if a game used item is signed then the item is real under the theory that the player would not have signed the item if it were not real.

cjw
11-02-2011, 11:51 AM
Alot of collectors, especially newer collectors take the approach of if a game used item is signed then the item is real under the theory that the player would not have signed the item if it were not real.

Granted, but there are many that feel any auto or inscription on a game used item renders the item less desirable.

sox83cubs84
11-02-2011, 01:40 PM
Actually, the jersey looks like it may be the real deal. Everything that should be there is, down to the Giamatti armband worn in the World Series. If I had the $$$ to spare I'd bid. I can't comment on the autograph though.

Dave Miedema

TNP777
11-02-2011, 01:49 PM
Actually, the jersey looks like it may be the real deal. Everything that should be there is, down to the Giamatti armband worn in the World Series. If I had the $$$ to spare I'd bid. I can't comment on the autograph though.

Dave Miedema
Dave, that was about to be one of my next questions - the legitimacy of the jersey itself. A friend of mine thinks it is, but is concerned about two things:

* beneath the Rawlings tag, what does 89 2 mean. I assume the 89 is the issue year, but what is the "2"? Does it denote a team-issued jersey, rather than actual game worn?

* the seller has a LOA from a man in West Virginia stating that the autograph is real, which it is definitely not - there is no question in my mind about that. What is missing is any kind of provenance from Dick Dobbins, who used to handle all of the Giants clubhouse stuff back then.

* another question I have is whether or not that autograph can be safely removed without permanently damaging the jersey. Even if the auto were legit, it's placement really detracts from the jersey's appearance. I'd love some opinions on that.

Thanks!

Geordie

dcgreg25
11-02-2011, 02:20 PM
One of the auction houses had a Butler road WS jersey for sale recently that I looked at but also had questions about. The best way to try and match it up is to look at images from the 1989 WS specifically with the thick arm band on the left arm of the jersey vs the one in the images from the game:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88797955/Getty-Images-Sport

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/88797951/Getty-Images-Sport

The spacing below the large thick arm band seems different. Take a look at the links and decide for yourself.

mbrieve
11-02-2011, 03:11 PM
I am not a Giants expert or Brett Butler expert, but based off the additional examples of Butler's autograph, I wouldn't completely discount the authenticity of the signature. Jersey material isn't exactly the easiest surface to sign and who knows if he was handed the jersey without a flat, hard surface behind it. There are a number of similarities with the signature, that if the jersey was legit, I would give more credence to the legitimacy of the signature.

This is a prime example of why I would never get a game used jersey signed...

sox83cubs84
11-02-2011, 04:16 PM
[quote=TNP777;272754]Dave, that was about to be one of my next questions - the legitimacy of the jersey itself. A friend of mine thinks it is, but is concerned about two things:

* beneath the Rawlings tag, what does 89 2 mean. I assume the 89 is the issue year, but what is the "2"? Does it denote a team-issued jersey, rather than actual game worn?

* the seller has a LOA from a man in West Virginia stating that the autograph is real, which it is definitely not - there is no question in my mind about that. What is missing is any kind of provenance from Dick Dobbins, who used to handle all of the Giants clubhouse stuff back then.

* another question I have is whether or not that autograph can be safely removed without permanently damaging the jersey. Even if the auto were legit, it's placement really detracts from the jersey's appearance. I'd love some opinions on that.

Thanks!

Geordie[/quote)

While I can't answer the last question, I can resolve the first two:

1) The "2" on the strip tag is Butler's uniform number. The Giants used those on strip tags instead of set numbers on the majority of jerseys they wore from 1977-91.

2) The team stamp in the tail was affixed by Dobbins, and matches the dozens of examples I have seen and recorded over the years.

I hope that helps and comforts you some.

Dave Miedema

lon lewis
11-02-2011, 05:56 PM
Since a number of individuals have contacted me about this jersey I thought I'd post my findings here and hopefully save some time.

After viewing the tapes from game 1&2 of the '89 World series and what photos are available to me, I can say that this is NOT the jersey worn by Brett Butler in either game 1 or 2

The "Battle of the Bay" patch is in the wrong location- it should have the bottom point centered on the "Rawlings" logo as all of the other Giants patches are. ( the A's had theirs offset to the back of the "R" in Rawlings. There is not as much of the white background on the patch as there should be which suggests that this may be a retail patch. Butler had a standard Rawlings NOB complete with "serged" edges. The offered jersey has a Nob made up at McAdams Sports. The 2 on the offered jersey appears to be off center. both the mfr tag and the strip tag.

Those are just a few of the "red flags" on this jersey.

In my opinion based on the photos offered on ebay, the jersey is either the second jersey used for pre game that was originally without the patch or a totally fabricated product. I would need to see the jersey in person in order to figure out which of the above it is.

Finally,you will notice that the LOA ( which isn't from Dobbins) covers the autograph and doesn't cover the autheticity of the jersy except to describe the jersey's tagging ect.

trsent
11-03-2011, 01:53 AM
Dang it, now I have to cancel my snipe.

Thanks for the information, Lon.

TNP777
11-03-2011, 10:10 AM
yes, Lon - thanks very much for the fantastic information. I was leaning towards not going after the jersey simply because of the bogus auto - even if legit, it's location is not very desirable.

I'm glad this forum exists - I appreciate those who have helped a new guy.

TNP777
11-19-2011, 09:27 PM
I don't know if anyone that posted in or looked at this thread tracked this jersey until it ended, but someone sure thought it was real. Ended over $500. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/170721840795?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_1413)