Seller admits jersey not game used

[Swoboda4]

I was surfing ebay "game used jersey" and saw a Gregg Jefferies 1990 mets home white being put up for bid by "sportsfan100". He adds later on 9/11/06 after six people bid on it, at he bottom of the description that,
This information I recieved could be true?
In 1989, 1990 and 1991, a handful of top players had tagged versions of retail jerseys made (most were autographed) by a now-defunct East Coast mega-dealer. Though not signed, these 1990 home Jefferies fall into that category, and were not worn by nor issued to him.
Thank you
He still lists this as game used though.
http://i24.ebayimg.com/03/i/08/50/47/d0_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030464472&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)http://i19.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/4a/3c/00_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030464472&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

[Swoboda4]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1990-NY-Mets-G-Jefferies-9-Game-Used-Basebase-Jersey_W0QQitemZ120030464472QQihZ002QQcategoryZ605 97QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i6.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/4d/95/18_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030464472&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)

[dcrules01]

Wouldnt the right thing to do is end the auction..I have contacted this seller and he has listed a ton of Angels jerseys as game worn...Not exactly the reputation you want to aquire selling fakes.Thats just my opinion though..

[Swoboda4]

You're right,I forgot to add that he's selling other game used jerseys(See Bobby Higginson below). The policy here is to contact the seller first but in this case he "contacted us" by adding/admitting that it's not game used in his description while keeping the Game used heading.Higginson jersey is not disputed but can you trust this situation?
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZsportsfan100QQhtZ-1

http://i14.ebayimg.com/03/i/08/4b/12/36_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030469629&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)http://i24.ebayimg.com/04/i/08/50/52/a8_12.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120030469629&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting)
http://cgi.ebay.com/1995-Detroit-Tigers-4-Game-Used-Basebase-Jersey_W0QQitemZ120030469629QQihZ002QQcategoryZ605 97QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Swoboda4]

Oh,and "ITEMS" are sold "AS IS" and PAYPAL only.Makes you feel real comfortable.

[kingjammy24]

i love a good pigpile as much as anyone else, but i think there's some misintrepretation here. i don't think the seller admitted the jersey wasn't game used. i think they simply said they received some info from a third party and then cut and paste that info for everyone to see, leaving it up to potential buyers to decide for themselves.
read:

"This information I recieved could be true? [this information he recieved is the information below. the question mark indicating he doesn't know if it's true or not]
[start of information given to seller from third party]
In 1989, 1990 and 1991, a handful of top players had tagged versions of retail jerseys made (most were autographed) by a now-defunct East Coast mega-dealer. Though not signed, these 1990 home Jefferies fall into that category, and were not worn by nor issued to him. [end of information from third party]
Thank you"

i think he just forgot to use quotes. someone just emailed him info about scoreboard jerseys and he posted the info to help buyers. it appears as if the entire statement is coming from him when it's not.

i've been looking at his stock for awhile. i think his story that he's selling the items from a deceased family member and has no clue about them seems legit. whenever he runs in to any info (he seems to have some guy advising him about how to date majestic bp jerseys), he seems to post it. he's got a mix of retail jerseys and game jerseys.

what's wrong with his angels jerseys? i thought many of them looked pretty good. i was even considering bidding on his 1990 Eichorn BP (with desert storm flag!). ultimately i decided not to simply because i couldn't be sure if many of these jerseys were run through the minors and/or were used only in spring training. other than possibly being recycled through the minors, many of his jerseys looked nice. some of them had "purchased from california angels" stamped inside. i recall that at least two of them came with dick dobbins paperwork. (the dobbins paperwork stated there may have been minor league use involved which is what dissuaded me).

i just think he's got a pile of stuff to auction off from his relative's estate and he's got no clue what most of it is. anytime someone emails him some info about a jersey, he posts it for potential buyers. if anyone can point out to me authenticity issues with his angels jerseys, i'd love to hear it.

rudy.

[DonTheLegend]

i seen this also.

i had this auction in my "watch list". mainly to see what kind of response it had, but then the additional info came out and the bottom seemed to have fallen out.

[Swoboda4]

Rudy-Even without the quotation marks and say he's not explaining himself correctly,how do you get around his last line,AND WERE NOT WORN BY OR ISSUED TO HIM. If he didn't update correctly he's still saying this might not be worn or issued to Jefferies.That kind of kills that jersey but the whole thing is he keeps the Game Used heading for the item. I agree the rest look good(I wrote,"Higginson jersey is not disputed but how can you trust this situation". Also phrases like,"tagged versions of retail jerseys" don't come from a unknowing person selling for a third party. He basically announced a scandal to be on the lookout for with 89.90.and 91 jerseys that could come from players tagging retail jerseys.

[ironmanfan]

I know there are a ton of 1990 Mets Jefferies tops out there..It was disclosed in the now defunt newsletter Diamond Duds over 10 years ago to avoid these Jefferies tops.

[trsent]

FYI - If a person is responding to a question on eBay, quotation marks may not be used in the eBay response system.

I have had to remove them many times before sending a message through the eBay system.

[trsent]

FYI - I received the following email today, reprinted with permission:


-----Original Message-----
From: dave miedema
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 3:20 PM
To: joel@alpert.net
Subject: Regarding GUF controversy

Joel:
I saw the GUF thread you contributed to regarding the Jeffries jerseys and related stuff. Since I refuse to directly post on GUF due to the plethora of negativity the site generates, I figured I'd send you some info regarding this seller, which you can add to the mix as you see fit.

The seller (a SHE, not a he) indeed, has no idea as to what she's offfering. As I often due when perusing eBay, I have sent her info to help her identify and date certain items. I am the one who advised her on the Jefferies jersey being a retail piece, and I am also the one who has helped her date and ID some of her BP jerseys.

She is aware of Game Used Forum, and, unfortunately, she is also aware of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks on the Forum who pick apart the slightest honest mistake and take delight in ripping sellers from all backgrounds. I'm sure it will disappoint her to know that the gripers and complainers have now made her a target.

Dave Miedema

Let's please not attack Dave for his comments about the GUU forum as there are truths in his comments that we would all like to see change so people will trust this forum in the future. His comments about the seller are genuine and important to this thread.

[beavisrules]

is there a way to differentiate a retail Jefferies and a game worn Jefferies from this era? or will all of them be virtually indistinguishable? just curious, thanks

[kingjammy24]

beavis,

all is not as it seems. although he refers to them as "retail" jerseys, miedema is specifically referring to scoreboard jerseys. technically scoreboard jerseys were "retail" in the sense that they weren't game issued and were solely intended for sale to the public, however they're a far cry from what's typically a retail jersey.

there were retail jerseys of the sort you'd find in a sporting goods shop and then there were scoreboard jerseys which were sold by scoreboard inc. (ie: defunct east coast mega-dealer) and weren't found in retail stores. in essence, two kinds of retail jerseys. the rawlings retail jerseys found in stores are easily discernable from gamers. they had a neck tag, the manufacturer's tag was only sewn on the left & right sides as opposed to all four sides, they lacked any flag tags and strip tags. the buttons were also different in many cases.

the scoreboard jerseys on the other hand were, in most cases, perfect recreations of pro jerseys. they had no neck tags, pro style manufacturer tagging, flag tags, correct strip tags, flawless numbering and lettering. almost impossible to tell apart from gamers. scoreboard only did a few jerseys though and many people are aware of the players and years that they recreated and typically stay away from those players/years.
notably, they did 1989 bo jackson home jerseys with "1989 set 2" flag tags, 1990 jose canseco home jerseys with "2 90" strip tags, a strawberry jersey, a gregg jeffries jersey, and a couple others. do a search on "scoreboard". how to tell a scoreboard jersey from a gamer? the scoreboard jersey shouldn't have any use. other than that, just avoid jerseys on the "scoreboard list". interestingly enough, asi just sent me an email about a sale in which they're offering, surprise, a 1989 bo jackson home jersey for over $1000.

rudy.

[cbb5]

Here are two images from Getty from the 1990 season (presumably). Any photo matching experts out there want to see if it matches? It looks close by the placement of the 9 as well as some of the pinstripes around the neck.
Chris

[Swoboda4]

The seller,no matter how nice or innocent,just concluded a ebay auction with a sale for a "Game Used Baseball Jersey" and, after being informed earlier by Dave Miedema that in all likelihood that it wasn't game used,still kept the title of the auction as game used. The heading wasn't changed and the auction wasn't ended early. Dave Miedema caught this situation first and correctly contacted the seller. The seller to some credit pointed this out but decided nonetheless to keep the Game Used heading. I see this item and start a thread about a questionable jersey and I'm a Monday Morning quarterback? Joel,you cant say don't attack Dave for his comments after in part he writes:
((She is aware of Game Used Forum, and, unfortunately, she is also aware of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks on the Forum who pick apart the slightest honest mistake and take delight in ripping sellers from all backgrounds. I'm sure it will disappoint her to know that the gripers and complainers have now made her a target.

Dave Miedema

Let's please not attack Dave for his comments about the GUU forum as there are truths in his comments that we would all like to see change so people will trust this forum in the future. His comments about the seller are genuine and important to this thread.
__________________
Joel Alpert))

----First of all this thread is not a gripe. Also an honest mistake should be corrected not left to stand and a sale concluded. I didn't "take delight in ripping the "sellers from all BACKGROUNDS(?)" but I tell you what Dave, I do take a certain pleasure when BUYERS from all backgrounds are alerted to a situation such as this. Dave worries about the seller being made a target. The only person she should worry about is game used collector "Keiz112" who bought the :
1990 NY Mets G.Jefferies #9 Game Used Basebase Jersey

Item number: 120030464472

Robert(Swoboda4)
New York

[trsent]

Robert, if the seller left an incorrect title but added to the description, I believe that is fine based on eBay's policies. I do not know every detail, but if an error is made and a bid has been placed all the seller has to do it make it clear somewhere in the listing of the error and there should be no issues.

If you are truly still concerned, I'd contact the proper legal authorities.

I know it would be best for the seller to end the auction and relist the item properly described, but that is not always done. I do not tell people how to run their business, I try, but I find no one listens.

[otismalibu]

I wasn't watching this auction, but I don't think you can change the title once a bid has been placed.

[trsent]

I wasn't watching this auction, but I don't think you can change the title once a bid has been placed.

Greg, you are correct, you can only change the auction description once a bid has been placed. This also includes answering questions through the eBay system, which I previously mentioned doesn't allow for the use of quotations. You have an option to post the question and answer for all to see.

I'll go back now and look at the auction again.

[trsent]

On Sep-11-06 at 18:58:04 PDT, seller added the following information:


This information I received could be true?

In 1989, 1990 and 1991, a handful of top players had tagged versions of retail jerseys made (most were autographed) by a now-defunct East Coast mega-dealer. Though not signed, these 1990 home Jefferies fall into that category, and were not worn by nor issued to him.

Thank you

This information was added by the seller in good faith. There were two bids ($99.00 and the high bid of $100.00) placed a day after this information was added. Bidsnipe programs are not an excuse since eBay doesn't support them, which means if you placed a Snipe and then the additional information was added you are still responsible since your bid was placed after the information was added.

If the buyer has an issue they should take it up with the seller. From everything read it is clear to me that Dave Medima is correct with his view that the seller is not a game used expert as many of us are. They were given good information (from someone on this forum?) and added it to their description.

Someone paid $100.00 for what may have been a game used jersey, but it appears to have been a team issued style jersey. If they are happy with their buy, why should we continue this thread?

Everything appears Kosher to me.

[TNTtoys]

I agree that all's well that ends well here. The high bidder bought something that is a notch above a retail authentic. For starters, a 15-year old retail authentic Rawlings jersey in perfect shape is probably worth at least $100. Add on accurate lettering and numbering, which most customizers charge $50 & up for, I think that the buyer should be considerably happy with their purchase. Had they (and others) believed that it is a gamer, it would probably have gone much much higher.

[34swtns]

Like the man said, she couldn't change the title once bids had been placed. She added the addendum to the discription..... that should be enough. Bases covered, in my opinion. I'd like to say more about how some people constantly feel the need to split hairs but I'm gonna bite my tongue this time.

[Swoboda4]

I started this thread and I guess I can ask Eric to end it. This topic began because I saw a questionable ebay game used jersey,with details that suggest otherwise( than its game used heading). Dave Miedema saw the same jersey and believed it not to be game used and contacted the seller in regard to it. The problem continued because the auction was not ended by the seller after receiving professional advise that the jersey was believed to be not game used. We've all seen auctions ended early by a seller it should have been done. I and many of us would NOT have allowed ourselves the benefit of continuing the auction under a game used heading at this point and just adding the information:"some believe this not real-can it be true,etc?" is ,after someone like Dave Miedema consults with you-(to his credit by the way) disingenuous.My first thread in regard to this topic is pretty benign and straight foward. How I became a bad guy,even from Dave,is something I hope doesn't prevent others from alerting us when they see a questionable auction.

The auction should have been ended and re-listed properly as I ask Eric to mercifully end this thread.
Robert

[trsent]

The auction should have been ended and re-listed properly as I ask Eric to mercifully end this thread.
Robert

Robert, I am no problems with your concerns, but it is not your or our job to tell people how to run their eBay business. The seller made a decision to continue their auction with new information clearly added to the auction.

Why should they have ended their auction? Because the title was misleading? They already had bids and exposure, and the two final bidders saw the new information before placing their bids.

If this really bothers you, there are thousands of intentionally misleading auction titles on eBay you can police, this auction was not intentionally misleading.

Please, if you want this thread ended, stop blaming a naive seller who was honest when notified of an error.

[jessicawinters]

I do NOT believe that you, Robert is "telling people how to run their Ebay business," but you are asking too much of this new seller. You wanted her to commit to the strictest rules of this forum and do everything exactly by the book. I do not think that she knew that it was such a great transgression in using the GU heading. When she learned of new information, she honestly posted them. She felt that it was sufficient, and ending the auction was not neccessary. And a lot of us here feel the same way. When knowledgeable users of this forum are backing her, then she should be cut some slack.

[sportsfan100]

Hello, This is sportsfan100 and my name is CINDY and I am a women.
I see I have made it to this forum with a start of negativity.
I first would like to Thank Dave, Joel and my new friend for you help and support. I have joined this forum to speak my mind and to let you know who I am. I have never written or spoken to anyone who has said they have spoken to me before. I had just meet Dave a few weeks before, and he was so wonderful and supportive to help me figure out the items that I have allready Listed . I Had know Idea Dave is an EXPERT till I read it in the forum.

I believe that Dave is a Angel watching over me with all his help and support and just loved sports and jerseys like my cousin. Real Men Like Dave and Joel don't have to brag and attack. They use their brain and common sense.
I have no idea what most of the items I'm selling. That's why I'm selling it.
No other court approved sellers will deal with his memoribilia because they don't have the slightest idea what it is, he just has too much. The courts request me to sell it all ,after passing all the background checks they did on me.
Cooperstown wanted $20,000 just to fly out here and the start to tell me what this stuff is.
Yes, Robert you should know how ebay works with their ad before you attack.
I can't change the tittle or ad into the main description once a bid is placed or add quotation marks.. Dave sent me the message and I clipped and pasted it. If I had known that DAVE is an expert and 100% right, I would have pulled the ad even with losting all the ebay listing fees.
My ebay ID sportsfan100 was started 8 years ago when I wanted to sell all the sportscards I had collected. I sold old SF Seals baseball memoribilia for a friend, but he told me what it was. I'm just a regular working person with very little to none knowledge of whats happening today in sports collecting. But,Thanks to Dave My Baseball 101 Teacher I'm Learning.
I had know idea that my cousin had collected over 1000 jerseys, now you can see why everyone else ran. My ad states AS IS- No Returns To keep the flakes away. I stand up for what I say in my ads, any problem. I'll make it right. My Feedback speaks for itself 100% positive which we all know is hard to do. Thank You to my new friends on GUF for your support.
Dave and Joel- Thank you for being my ANGEL:) :)
Too the ones that attacked me.. I am all Woman

[otismalibu]

Silver lining = Joel met a woman

[Swoboda4]

Cindy I get the feeling you're really a nice person as your 100% feedback suggests. I hope you've read my very first comment on this topic which is not as bad as it sounds as we approach comment#30. I would love to be able to read Dave's complete e-mail to you in regard to this jersey because it's being suggested there's a misunderstanding on what he said and how you updated it, at least by me. This forum discusses game used items(where ever they may be)and more often than not the troubles that come with it. There's alot of people who are taking advantage of this hobby and the retail jersey you innocently listed as game used set off bells that's all. Oh,and I don't" take delight in ripping people from all backgrounds" as Dave suggested through an intermediary. Cindy,all woman,welcome.

[trsent]

Silver lining = Joel met a woman

Greg, kind of makes me think of a Jill Sobule song. I have a version of the song when she did a live duet with Warren Zevon. Pretty cool. Warren could pull off any duet, even to a song about a girl kissing a girl.

Anyway, I have never had any communication with the seller in discussion, only Dave Medima. It appears from everything found in this thread that the seller was unaware the item was not game used. Upon being informed by a known expert (who she didn't even know was well regarded in the industry at the time) that there was a question, she edited the auction to add more information to the description.

The jersey then sold for a measly $100.00.

Case closed. I cannot believe someone else asked to read the full email that Dave Medima sent the seller. Why does everyone have to be looked at as a criminal? This appears to be an honest error that was properly corrected according to the eBay guidelines.

[sportsfan100]

Good Morning everyone, Today will be a brighter day:)
Robert, what you saw in the added in descripition is the complete email that Dave had sent me. One or 2 liners as he is very busy and only when he's able to assist. Dave never mention his line of work to me. At one point I had someone email me that one of my jerseys was not game used, two people e-mail me saying I found a real game used one. The person who said it was not a GU jersey came in and bidded real high. So, who was I to believe, I believed the 2 yes votes. Then Dave found me and Not knowing Dave is an EXPERT(I'm so lucky) I was Not totally sure because of the tagging. I clipped and pasted what Dave had said and add the "could be" to protect the information I recieved and let you the other expert decide. I take lots of pictures and you can super size them. I try to give as much information I can, mainly all the flaws.

Anyway, I have never had any communication with Joel or any member on GUF, just reading what he has writen above. The only person I have ever communicated with is Dave Medima. Dave did not have to come forward and say anything. He could of just let me hanging out in this forum as a conartist. Being a Standup Man, he sent Joel a e-mail which he posted with his name out there. We all know Dave could have went into a hole and said nothing.
Joel ,with Dave's permission posted it. As I read Joels Replys, I look to you Joel as my other angel guiding me as what you have writen, is how I felt and could only do. You too could have said nothing.

I'd like you to know the buyer of the 1995 Lee Smith Jersey , met LEE the day after recieving his Jersey. Lee was so excited to see his jersey again, he Authenticed the Jersey for him and autograph the back. Go Ask Him!
If The man That bought Jefferies is not happy, will work it out or I'd return his funds.. 100.00 million don't matter. Mistakes do happen

There are a few crooks on ebay and It is good for everyone GUF to watch over each other. If I make a mistake again please let me know, My Angel might be busy...It is very much apprecated!

Yes, I was very hurt to find me here in GUF, mistakes do happen. It's all Good now. Everything in my listing is true and this is all for his 16 year old daughter.
We can all learn from this. Have a LIVING TRUST,LABLE everything and give the history. Don't make your family go crazy:eek: OK INSANE
Thank You to everyone for your love and support.
TTFN,
Cindy

[Eric]

Funny story- I too think of Joel as my angel guiding me...
Eric

[trsent]

Funny story- I too think of Joel as my angel guiding me...
Eric

He loves me...
He loves me not...

[Swoboda4]

Cindy,all woman,I love you.Welcome again.You're on my aol favorites.
Eric,Thanks for joining us.What's new? Dave,thanks for...........Ah,..Joel,I'm sorry to bother you.Could you tell Dave something who's above talking to us directly. Thank him for seeing Cindy's auction first and not telling the biggest game used forum in the world about her authentic BP jerseys but slammed us when we corrected discussed a retail jersey labeled(albeit innocently)a gamer.
Griper and Complainer,
Robert
.

[trsent]

Cindy,all woman,I love you.Welcome again.You're on my aol favorites.
Eric,Thanks for joining us.What's new? Dave,thanks for...........Ah,..Joel,I'm sorry to bother you.Could you tell Dave something who's above talking to us directly. Thank him for seeing Cindy's auction first and not telling the biggest game used forum in the world about her authentic BP jerseys but slammed us when we corrected discussed a retail jersey labeled(albeit innocently)a gamer.
Griper and Complainer,
Robert
.

Robert, you know I asked Dave if I should attribute his comments, and he said yes. I offered to drop out the GUU Forum comments, but he said he'll stand up and take the heat for his reasoning for not publishing on this forum.

[sportscentury]

Robert, you know I asked Dave if I should attribute his comments, and he said yes. I offered to drop out the GUU Forum comments, but he said he'll stand up and take the heat for his reasoning for not publishing on this forum.

I've known Dave Miedema for a long time (through email correspondence, his newsletter, etc.). I think he's a good guy and clearly knows a ton about game worn baseball uniforms. My response is not to Dave specifically, but to everyone who has complained about GUF for being too negative. I guess I'm just surprised how easily overwhelmed people are by the discussions and debates that we have on GUF. Are people critical? Sure. Do people get too personal some times? Yes. Do people battle it out at times? Of course. But most GUF regulars are intelligent, discerning individuals who are very passionate about the hobby. Is it really that difficult to stomach the criticisms, debates, and analyses? I guess for some it is ... it's just surprising to me that this group includes so many respected hobby figures. It's a shame.

Maybe Dave and others will reconsider as time passes. I, for one, would love to see the folks from MEARS, Grey Flannel, PSA/DNA, and even American Memorabilia chime in, at least here and there.

Reid