The future of collecting...

[Larry Pelliccioni]

....seems to rest in those companies that are binding themselves to individuals and teams for the transferring of many of the items that we on this board would love to have.
Dealing with those that are out there lends itself to credibility on one hand and greed on the other.
As a long time collector, the ease with which one can obtain game worns has grown increasingly easier over time hence robbing me of some of the joy that went into past hunts.
While it has limited the disappointment of being told no, I find my inner voice saying no to many of the offerings based on lifestyle changes and a pricing structure well beyond a point that I feel supports such a charge.
I love this hobby. I have been a part of it for 37 years.
What I miss most is not the items I have transacted away but the fine people who were associated with it that no longer are. In a time where building relationships was the key to accumulating game worns, it is now only a case of a computer, a phone call and a credit card.
I respect today's collector who wants and demands the very best in all aspects however often overlooked and diminishing in value is the concept of trust that all of us once had.
Larry Pelliccioni

[WadeInBmore]

Larry...

I'm glad to see you make this post. I have been thinking along simialar lines as I look at and evaluate my collection...and while I don't have nearly the years in the hobby as you, I have managed to hear many stories about how it used to be.

I only started collecting GU items 4-5 years ago (roughly when I joined the GUU). My quest for tracking down Frank Thomas items has lead me along a path that has introduced me to many other Thomas fans and collectors. When I hear stories about availability and cost I can only WISH that I had been collecting back then. The hobby was young and still very "qwerky" to say the least. Items were made available to be sold...and enjoyed and not just to make a ton of money.

Due inpart to the competition that is forming in the hobby, I, at times, fear that I will not be able to "complete" my collection as I see fit. I can't compete with the deep pockets of some of the card companies and, for my situation, Thomas GU items are no longer being introduced into the hobby every year since he retired. What exists out in the collecting/hobby world is what exists for collectors to fight over. Period. Kind of grim IMO.

I will continue to be patient and wait for that NEXT item to show up on the open market that I can add to the collection. I just hope that I have $ in the bank at that time to spend on it :) 2014 is right around the corner and I suspect a lot of items to become available (given his strong HOF potential and '14 being his first opportunity), as people will undoubtedly be looking to strike while the iron is hot.

...I will continue my quest, no matter how frustrating because it will be rewarding when I do suceed in my goals!

wade

[pacman2680]

Excellent post Larry,

I too have not been around the hobby near as long as yourself, but can recall several years ago a fellow who I am sure you have all dealt with and known, he had a website called Jim's Jersey's and was able to provide me with some crucial knowledge that I needed back then getting started. He seemed glad to share insight and have a conversation about the hobby without any pressure to buy, or for that matter with no fees or strings attached. His info was invaluable to me at the time and I am happy to have crossed his path. There have been several others that helped me in the same way, and were forthcoming and honest. As you said for many dealers these days it is a bottom line business, and contacts do not matter as much. At least this site still allows us to connect with long time collectors who are still willing to share info and insight.

Cheers.

[commando]

I remember scanning the weekly Sports Collectors Digests to see if any game used items would be advertised. Several steady dealers would usually have ads of various sizes, and I'd look to see if anything new popped up. I was (and still am) a New Orleans Saints fan, and clearly remember how you simply could not find a GU Saints jersey before the internet became popular. My first GU purchase happened in 1995, when I picked up Rickey Jackson's first 1994 49ers jersey (a great player for the Saints, so this was the closest I could get to a "Saints" jersey at the time). I later traded the jersey away to another dealer I saw in SCD. Shortly thereafter, I picked up a nice Marquis Grissom Expos jersey (also in 1995) to display on my wall, as he was one of the best outfielders in baseball at the time.

As I did, you would often buy items that were cool and you liked, but would have to wait forever to find certain things. With that being said, I do kinda miss the old days of getting the big typewritten lists from Smoking Pistols and Sports Warehouse.

[beavisrules]

Good thread. I still have the thrill of the search Larry described for Notre Dame jerseys, as jerseys from pre-1990s and game worn ND bowl jerseys are incredibly hard to find. Also, finding quality ND alums jerseys that pre-date 2000 are still not easily obtainable either (our moderator Greg can vouch for that as well). Prior to the 1990s jerseys, the only way to get Notre Dame gamers was if the university donated the jersey for charitable auction or the players themselves sold them; otherwise, my understanding is the university donated them to local high schools and other organizations for use, which then disposed of them when they were worn out (imagine being in high school and being given Tim Brown's gamer to wear). For bowl game jerseys, the players always keep them - hence, typically you can only get them secondhand from the senior players selling them to pawn shops or ebay or such, or if the player turned the jersey back in to the athletic department for some reason. Also, the number of fake ND bowl game jerseys is roughly 50% of what you see for sale, so you absolutely have to do your homework. To put it in perspective, I think it has been two years now since I have seen a truly legit ND bowl game jersey for sale (2003 Gator Bowl jersey) - I have not seen a single one available since then other than fakes. The thrill of the search continues!

[solarlottry]

"My first GU purchase happened in 1995, when I picked up Rickey Jackson's first 1994 49ers jersey (a great player for the Saints, so this was the closest I could get to a "Saints" jersey at the time). I later traded the jersey away to another dealer I saw in SCD." quote from Commando.

I may have had that shirt at one point! I too used to wait at the mailbox for the SCD! I remember buying my first 49er gamers via an SCD auction where no one else bid and I won John Taylor and Brent Jones gamers for 200$ each.

Times have changed. Back then collecting and connecting was usually via word of mouth, luck, SCD or card shows. I think the internet has opened things up in such a way where collectors of the same player/team can connect and sell/trade way more easily than back then. Prices are different of course but back then gas was 1$ a gallon so everything has gone up. Also remember that their were still companies selling game used like MOS then that are similar to the JOs of today.

One thing that has been a constant is fakes!!! That will never change. I look thru old auction catalogs all the time. I have every GF catalog plus many Mastro and a few others and the same old fake Montana shirts were for sale back then as they are today. The internet has helped the collector avoid buying such fakes though as places such as this forum are on the junk shirts so quickly whereas years ago there was no method to mass distribute such valuable information.

I think game used collecting still can be quite fun albeit expensive. I meet other NFL and 49er collectors all the time and reconnect with people I have not heard from in years. It is also quite satisfying to finally get that shirt you have been looking for! The "HUNT" still is an important part of the hobby it is just done in a different manner than back in the early 90s.

Always buying 49ers gamers and ANY 1994 49er gamer. Always paying a finders fee!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[frikativ54]

I hardly pine for the "glory days" of collecting. I would not like to go back to the times where friendships determined what I could and couldn't have, where a few people capitalized upon the market and bought items the rest of us didn't have access to, and where you had to trust some mystery clubhouse source.

Now, I consider myself to be lucky. I am email lists that offer items I could have only previously dreamed of; I can have instant access to MLB.com Auctions where I can buy an item I am virtually assured is authentic. I can talk with other collectors halfway across the country and buy, trade, and sell with them.

If only there were the kind of access to game used collectibles back when I was growing up. It seems that the only people who want to go back to the good old days are those who had connections, those who had a good amount of income, and those who were in the know. I'm glad we don't have to return to those times.

[geoff]

I started collecting game used and worn items in late 2005 and have a very nice collection going as some of the members have seen.I have met many nice people on this site that are willing to help me get my collection going and keep it going.Back in 2005 it was hard to find items I thought that I wanted but during those years since you can find almost just about anything but it might cost you a bunch but you can find what you want.I do love it how teams now sell there game used items.And I love the fanfest concept that sells game used and worn for pretty cheap.I guess it depends what team though on the fanfests.I can only hope some of the teams that sell there stuff in the team stores do lower there prices in years to come and relize alot of people collect and really are not rich but just want to be part of the game and the closet most of us will ever get is collecting our favorite players items and love doing it.

[34swtns]

I've actually been having a similar discussion with Matt from the Bears thread lately. While it's nice that it's been much easier to obtain jerseys from our favorite team these last few years one can't help but wonder what it's doing to the market and the implications for the future.
Just a few years ago if you wanted a Lance Briggs jersey you put out feelers to other collectors, team sources and websites like Jim Yakel's in hopes that one might become available and hope you might have a shot at it when it does.
Those days are over.

Now you simply click on whichever Briggs jersey from whichever season you might like and assuming you have the crazy money that's being charged for it, it can be yours. It makes me wonder how this era will be looked upon by future collectors and how the values of the jerseys from the present day will be affected by that perception.

I'm quite sure that 10-20 years down the road Bears jerseys from the present day will be referred to as being from "the JO era" or some such title. I can also imagine that their resale value will be diminished because of that label. After all, how valuable will a 2006-20?? Lance Briggs jersey be in 20 years when it's common knowledge that there are a couple of dozen or more of them out there?

Back in 2004 when I bought my first Urlacher gamer (for $600 no less) it was good to know that I had potentially 1 of just a couple of his jerseys that had hit the market up until that time. With the Bears' agreement with Game Exclusives and then JO Sports, that number has risen substantially. And while Urlacher gear still commands a premium, JO gets top dollar for their new Urlacher items each season but those of us in the secondary market know the true value of his stuff and it's about half of what JO gets for it with the initial sale. That is directly attributable to the number of his gamers that have been and will be on the market. Quite a few, in fact.
When I first started collecting, invariably when I asked about resale value on an item, I would get the standard "buy what you like, not for resale" response from the oldtimers of the hobby. I never understood how anyone could think that way. After all, who wants to pay big money for things that don't acrue in value?
Nowdays that old saying makes more sense than ever.

I believe that the jerseys we're buying now, unless they were worn by superstars like Montana, Elway, Manning, Brady, etc. will not retain much of their original asking price at all due to the sheer numbers of them that are out there. In short, what is now a blessing in the ease with which we can obtain these items will surely be a curse upon their future value.

So, as a wiseman once said, "collect what you like, not for resale".

[mad87man]

It is very hard to tell. Yes it might hurt the market a little bit, it might also help b/c we will know more authenticity on things. Also high priced players will always go up in value and be harder to get. Look at Sanchez for example ( i am using him b.c i like the jets). Currently his stuff is in high demand and pretty high priced. If he won a super bowl his stuff would go threw the roof imo. Also if you want stuff that is harder to get and will be worth a little more go for rookie year things and take a chance on them, really that's what it is all about is chance. there is a chance it will be worth more a chance it will remain the same, and a chance its less.

[gingi79]

Larry,

While I think these insights are factual, they are my opinions. The hobby as I see it, is starting a new phase with 4 very distinct parts.

- Teams once either horded their game used or made deals with a Milt Byron or Murf Denny to allow fans the opportunity to obtain gamers at reasonable prices. Those days are long gone. Teams now suffer from delusions of grandeur, pricing jerseys well above what average fans can afford.

- Somehow the terms integrity and authenticity now come with price tag. Some folks point to eBay and all of the dealers and con men that still exist. They'll say the premium increase is worth it for the piece of mind. I say they are only using euphemistic language to price gouge and profiteer by praying on fear.

- Collectors once knew their items would retain value. Buying a jersey this season came with the knowledge you could sell it for the same price and in most cases for more money, 2 years later. With the exception of one of my jerseys, I'd lose money on every item I have if I sold them today. I'd argue many of us on this board are in a very similar boat.

- I think this hobby will follow the early 90's baseball card fad. Just like 50's Topps still hold value, so too would jerseys from before 2000. I wonder whether the overinflated price bubble on modern material will pop and allow average fans the opportunity to finally obtain their favorite players jersey? The hobby would then return to a rational price structure for average fans and buying a jersey for $300 today could actually be resold next year for more than $100.

[staindsox]

I think this hobby will follow the early 90's baseball card fad. Just like 50's Topps still hold value, so too would jerseys from before 2000.

This is exactly correct. Anyone who collected through the card bubble can see how this exactly parallels what is happening with game used right now. The bubble burst because of overproduction, which is exactly what they are doing with gamers now. How many bats and jerseys do superstars now use a year? How many more a year are entering the market? This bubble is guaranteed to burst at some point in the near future too, period.

[jppopma]

Larry is spot on with missing the old days of collecting. Perfect timing as I was just today doing some research for player's numbers in some 15 year old Sports Warehouse catalogs.

To me, the thrill of the hunt and enjoying the homework were some of the best times. While many people hide behind the computer, I will say that there are alot of friendships to be made.

The biggest problem that I encounter with the ease of acquiring jerseys is that I buy way too much JUNK! Back in the day you didn't have many choices (nor money in my cases) and had to pick and choose just what jerseys you were really interested in. These days, I often find myself picking up "deals" or other things that really don't fit into a specific collecting need. Sadly, there are times where I find myself passing on jerseys that I really do like just because it is not as much of a bargain.

I wonder what the newbies think when they hear stories of collecting before the days of the internet, before ebay, when you actually had to call auction houses, before LOA's, and when people never even thought of photo matches.

[Number13]

I'm a newbie to game used, but completely understand and agree with what happened in the 90s. I was a teenager in the 80s and remembered how much fun it was collecting and going to shows and trying to find items. I stopped collecting cards completely in about 92 because of the overproduction of cards. I stopped just when inserts were becoming popular and things were more about the bottom line than just collecting. Being older, and hoping a little wiser, I think that I can enjoy collecting game used. One thing I learned from the past was that if I want to enjoy collecting I need to have a niche and stick to it. I found myself buying way too much junk back in the 80s. I'm hoping that just collecting GU #13 will bring the joy I once had when I was a bit younger. Technology has taken away some of the hunt, but, like this forum, it brings more people together across the county. Something that was much harder to do back then. I've only been on here a couple days and it is great to see that people still collect to have fun and not just for money.

[cohibasmoker]

- Supply and demand;

- Economy; and,

- Age

Supply and Demand - Back in the day, game worn/used items were far and few. Today, "gamers" are all over the place.

Economy - Unlike our government, most of us have realized that we cannot afford to spend what we don't have then look to others for a "bailout". Most of use have learned that if the economy tanks, things get tight. We are working more hours and have less money to spend on luxury items like sports memorabilia. Before we go out and spend big money on an item, we have to think about what the future holds.

Age - I am 57 years old. Back in the day when we were kids, we could NOT even afford to buy items from the "concession" stands. A cap for $2.50 was way out of our price range. As we got older, got jobs and made a few bucks, we started to acquire items we couldn't afford as kids. The 1980's is a prime example - most of us can remember the "MAJOR" cards shows that seemed to be every weekend. Shows may not be the correct word - most shows were actually "EVENTS". Whether it was called a "show" or "event", it was a time to get out and meet and greet other hobby collectors. Today, we have eBay. To prove my point, the majority of guys I knew are out of the hobby for various reasons and I can't say how much longer I'll be in the hobby. With a large segment of baby boomers dropping out of the hobby, a large block of revenue is going with them.

With a lot of the baby boomers out of the market, its now time for the next generation to drive the market. Attitudes have changed - yes we do enjoy sports but with the rise of the internet, computer games, sports scandals and iPhones, attitudes have changed. Add-in the scars from our current economy and game used stuff all over the place, only time will tell.

Just some opinions,

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[frikativ54]

Age - I am 57 years old. Back in the day when we were kids, we could NOT even afford to buy items from the "concession" stands. A cap for $2.50 was way out of our price range. As we got older, got jobs and made a few bucks, we started to acquire items we couldn't afford as kids. The 1980's is a prime example - most of us can remember the "MAJOR" cards shows that seemed to be every weekend. Shows may not be the correct word - most shows were actually "EVENTS". Whether it was called a "show" or "event", it was a time to get out and meet and greet other hobby collectors. Today, we have eBay. To prove my point, the majority of guys I knew are out of the hobby for various reasons and I can't say how much longer I'll be in the hobby. With a large segment of baby boomers dropping out of the hobby, a large block of revenue is going with them.

You use the first person plural a lot, but I'm not sure to whom you are referring. You and your friends? The baby-boom generation? Collectors? Someone else?

[frikativ54]

To me, the thrill of the hunt and enjoying the homework were some of the best times.

Can someone please explain the thrill of the chase for me - at least as it involves sports memorabilia? If I want an item and can't get it, it becomes really frustrating. So much so that I may be dissuaded from collecting. I understand not wanting things to be mass produced, but I just can't comprehend frustration over having an easier time obtaining items.

Genuinely curious,

Frik

[otismalibu]

Can someone please explain the thrill of the chase for me - at least as it involves sports memorabilia? If I want an item and can't get it, it becomes really frustrating. So much so that I may be dissuaded from collecting. I understand not wanting things to be mass produced, but I just can't comprehend frustration over having an easier time obtaining items.

If there was simply a catalog with everything in it that you wanted, how much fun would that be?

I don't really collect much games used, because the player I collect, well, his stuff doesn't exactly fly under the radar. There's no real hunt involved, when items are on eBay or being sold by a major auction house.

I'll search for rare photos, where success may depend on how creative one can get with internet searches. It may take years to find a game photo from a specific game. I'm guessing this may have been how it used to be for GU stuff, before it was all laid out for the highest bidder.

[commando]

I was a teenager in the 80s and remembered how much fun it was collecting and going to shows and trying to find items. I stopped collecting cards completely in about 92 because of the overproduction of cards. I stopped just when inserts were becoming popular and things were more about the bottom line than just collecting.

I agree 100%. Most of us here used to collect cards too, and I remember suffering through the crazy, overpriced market of the 1990s. There are so many parallels between cards and GU that it's not even funny -- the main difference is that the timelines are off by about 20 years.

I have a prediction that several of you will leave the GU hobby out of frustration over the next few years, only to come back years later when prices are more reasonable (many prices ARE reasonable right now, but not on much of the newer stuff, including minor stars and hyped prospects).

One big difference between the cards hobby and GU hobby is the number of collectors. What really cemented this in my mind is the recent availability of those newer Dallas Cowboys jerseys we've seen on eBay. Even though most jerseys are common players, where are all the fans looking to buy a unique item? 100,000 people will attend a Cowboys home game, but a GU jersey on eBay won't have any bidders at $59.95? Figure out that one.

As a huge fan of cards from the 1980s, the decade of my youth, I have gone back and purchased tons of card sets at awesome prices over the past several years. Many of them are quite scarce, believe it or not. I recently started a database of card sets from the decade, just for fun. I have not yet promoted the site because I want to add a couple hundred sets first, but here's the link if anyone wants to see: http://www.1980sportscarddatabase.com

[BarryMeisel]

Hi everybody,

Obviously I am biased because I co-own and run MeiGray, and my business is game-worn jerseys. But I have a real stake in seeing the game-worn jersey market stay healthy, and I do objectively think the comparison to the card bubble of the '90s is very flawed.

And here's why ...

Twenty to 25 years ago, as the card market had boomed in the early to mid '80s, many young collectors (myself included) started buying and hoarding baseball cards in a speculative attempt to make big money.

What happened was the card companies, recognizing the increase in their pre-season orders for cases, and wax boxes and the like, cranked out huge quantities of cards to meet this speculative demand ... without divulging these increases in card population.

What DID NOT happen was an increase in the number of collectors to balance this increase in product. And so the bubble burst when anybody with a checkbook and an attic bought the cards, but could not sell the cards at a profit a few years later.

While many people have properly noted the growth of the game-worn market in terms of number of jerseys/sets of jerseys, these same people have not acknowledged that the number of collectors interested in purchasing/trading these jerseys has grown, too.

I can speak authoritatively on the hockey and baskeball markets, since we partner with the NHL and NBA and run their Game-Worn Authentication Programs. And we keep track and publicize population reports in the NHL (with teams we have team deals), and we collect information on populations in the NBA (with teams we have team deals).

If, for example, an NHL team went from 2 sets a season in the 1990s to 4 sets a season today, the collector base would have had to double for the balance to stay the same.

And that's roughly what has happened. Our NHL collector base since 2002 has grown three-fold. Our NBA collector base has doubled since 2006. I can tell you without a doubt the ratio of collectors to jerseys has stayed fairly consistent over the last 14 years, since MeiGray has been in business.

So while it seems like jerseys are much, much more readily available now (and that is true), so too are collectors in the primary and secondary markets willing to buy.

So in my opinion, the game-worn jersey market today carries no resemblance to the card market of the '90s.

I will agree that it is not as easy to make money buying and flipping game-worn jerseys as it was 20 years ago ... but that is true of any hobby moving from a small niche market (like game-worn jerseys were in the '90s) to a robust one (like it is today) ...

Respectfully,

Barry

[solarlottry]

I dont know if buying a game used item for the sole purpose of "flipping" it just to make $ is called collecting. Collecting to me is having an interest in a team, player or event and buying items from whatever you are interested in for your enjoyment.

Of course I sell a shirt here and there but I dont expect to make significant $ off of these sales and I usually sell something to finance the purchase of another game used piece. I am quite happy to break even or make a few bucks if i can but I dont expect to make a living or a large profit off of any of my collection. Obviously if I purchased something 20 years ago and now the player is in the HOF, I am going to sell that at market value.

One thing that is interesting is that when someone is interested in buying a gamer that i own they are also interested in what i paid for it. What I paid 20 years ago has no bearing on its value today. The buyer in some cases seems to think that the current selling price should be close to what i paid rather than what it is really worth.

I agree with Barry in that the game used market is entirely different from the card bubble. I also think that there are shirts out there for all types of collectors. JO and other sellers have shirts reasonably priced but superstars are always gonna command big $$$$. Even from 1988-1990 Montana wore almost one shirt a game (sometimes he would wear a shirt for 2 games). This was for the sole purpose of the team selling them to finance locker and weight room improvements. Even with all of those shirts (around 50 including the playoffs and preseason) out there, his jerseys are still hard to find and expensive. There are probably more fakes than authentic shirts of his sold at auction every year.

The main reason to collect is for fun and once the fun is taken out of the equation than one must re-evaluate their goals and interest in the hobby. I love looking at my gamers and seeing things i did not notice before. Also watching a dvd of a game you have a jersey from is cool especially when a match is confirmed!

Always buying 49ers gamers and ANY 1994 9er gamer. Finders fee paid for the right shirt.
Aloha
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[staindsox]

What DID NOT happen was an increase in the number of collectors to balance this increase in product.

I have to diagree Barry. This is exactly what happened with cards. The number of people buying modern cards boomed in the late 80s/early 90s. This is when grown adults entered the market. Before then, you didn't see many grown men purchasing packs or cases. If you openly admitted that you collected cards in the 70s or 80s, you would get a strange look from people. "What's wrong with this guy, is he 8 years old or something?" The card companies responded to this increase in demand by saturating the market with cards. This is exactly what teams and players are doing now. The team I follow used to issue 4 jerseys a year to all their players. Just 4 total jerseys. Now their star players receive 6 in each style...and the players have the option to order more through the manufacturer. That's at least 20-30 jerseys every single year. What if the guy plays 15-20 seasons? That is in baseball. Don't star football players get at least one new jersey every game? In some cases, every half? Overproducing to meet the increase in demand. I think it parallels perfectly.

Chris

[jppopma]

Can someone please explain the thrill of the chase for me - at least as it involves sports memorabilia? If I want an item and can't get it, it becomes really frustrating. So much so that I may be dissuaded from collecting. I understand not wanting things to be mass produced, but I just can't comprehend frustration over having an easier time obtaining items.

Genuinely curious,

Frik

Hey Les,

The thrill of the chase is the anticipation of finding the items that you are really looking for, and then ultimately adding them to your collection. I collect local players, who's jerseys do no pop up too often, and require a bunch of research to know just what to look for.

The best explanation for you would be some of Bagwell items that you collect. I am sure that there are many of his items that you want and are just waiting for come available. Looking for them and waiting for them to become available is the thrill of the hunt. I've seen you get frustrated on the boards before with things....but look, here you are still waiting and looking for Bagwell items.

Imagine finding a Bagwell minor league jersey from when he played in the Red Sox organization. Being able to know just what to look for in it (since there will not be any NOB), what number he was, and other specific details....that's what you learn from the fun homework of checking rosters, programs, and other old pictures. The trill of the chase is the feeling you get when you see a 1989 Winter Haven Red Sox jersey pop up on Ebay and know that it was his. The thirll is then accentuated when you win the jersey and add it to your collection. Especially when you get it for a great price because other's didn't know that it was an old Bagwell.

Hope that all helps and all the best in finding the Bagwell items you have been chasing.

John

[jppopma]

I agree with Barry's information about there being more collectors out there to balance out the increase in game worn items being produced.

How many times have we passed on an item in a mass auction with plans to buy it in a couple months when it gets dumped on Ebay? I know that I have and also that many of these items simply don't resurface. It's frustrating , but at the same time is a good thing.

[frikativ54]

Hey Les,

The thrill of the chase is the anticipation of finding the items that you are really looking for, and then ultimately adding them to your collection. I collect local players, who's jerseys do no pop up too often, and require a bunch of research to know just what to look for.

The best explanation for you would be some of Bagwell items that you collect. I am sure that there are many of his items that you want and are just waiting for come available. Looking for them and waiting for them to become available is the thrill of the hunt. I've seen you get frustrated on the boards before with things....but look, here you are still waiting and looking for Bagwell items.

Imagine finding a Bagwell minor league jersey from when he played in the Red Sox organization. Being able to know just what to look for in it (since there will not be any NOB), what number he was, and other specific details....that's what you learn from the fun homework of checking rosters, programs, and other old pictures. The trill of the chase is the feeling you get when you see a 1989 Winter Haven Red Sox jersey pop up on Ebay and know that it was his. The thirll is then accentuated when you win the jersey and add it to your collection. Especially when you get it for a great price because other's didn't know that it was an old Bagwell.

Hope that all helps and all the best in finding the Bagwell items you have been chasing.

John

Thanks for the explanation, John. I now see what you mean more by the thrill of the chase; it helps to be able to relate to it personally. For me, it might mean finding that HR ball from the game I was at, buying that pair of cleats I had always found to be cool but never knew I could ever own. I get a lot of thrill out of trying to photomatch a hat or a jersey. I guess I've felt the thrill of the chase the most with photography - trying to take the "perfect" sports photo, if there is such a thing.

To be fair, I can understand not wanting there to be 6 of each style of jersey per player per year. I don't like it when a player wears a different pair of spikes each day, because each pair can be sold at a huge profit. These types of things are overkill, and that gets old pretty quickly. Or at least it did for me when I started collecting baseball cards again when I was in my early twenties. The first year was fun, but then there were so many cards and so many sets a year that I began to see my cards as little more than a marketing gimmick, a money-maker for the card companies. Now I rarely buy cards, but when I do, they are usually from a particular set or for photomatch purposes.

[G1X]

Larry Pelloccioni - a great thread! You and I have known each other dating back to the mid-1970s when we were both chasing World Football League uniforms, so I can relate well to your thoughts. For the past several years, it seems like I end up in a discussion on this very topic with other collectors (both young and old) on an almost weekly basis.

Things have changed greatly over the years, most for the good, but I do miss the sense of camaraderie that seemed to be more prevalent back in the days when we depended on the telephone, mail, and meeting at shows as our main form of communication. I also miss the true gentlemen of the hobby who are no longer with us such as Dick Dobbins and Floyd Hartel.

I have to agree with staindsox (Chris) in his observation in comparing the over-production of jerseys to the card bubble. While I will agree with Barry Meisel that there are more game-used collectors in the hobby than there was a decade ago, Chris is on point in his post (post #22). As a dealer, I can attest that there are only so many jerseys you can sell of the same player.

Les also says it well in her last paragraph of post #25. I agree that having players wear an abundant number of each style of jersey each year is overkill, and it does indeed get old pretty quickly. I don't necessarily have the desire to be the only person in the world to own a particular collectible, but on the other hand, if there are an abundant number of that same item available for purchase, it becomes less of a collectible at that point and more of a commodity. That's part of the fun of collecting for many - to have something that is a bit unique.

As with just about everything in life, things change and you either adjust to the changes or you don't. For me, I collect game-used football jerseys. The newer stuff holds little interest to me not because I am an old-timer stuck in my ways, but simply because it is all the same (even the same manufacturer for all teams), and there seems to be a lot of it out there. Like others who have commented, where is the thrill of the chase? Making matters worse is that I find a lot of the newer stuff over-priced, especially considering the amount available.

Regardless, as long as you are having fun collecting game-used items, that's all that really matters. Once it ceases to be fun, then it's time to move on to something else that will bring you joy.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League and Atlanta Falcons uniforms, and any Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used items.

[BarryMeisel]

Chris,

Your example, which does not mention the team to which you are referring, fails to acknowledge the supply/demand ratio.

I think if you are going to state how many jerseys were worn then and now, it's also relevant to consider how many collectors are interested in those jerseys. And what they go for.

Look at retail sales of companies like MeiGray. The top players whose jerseys are produced in greater numbers then ever before sell very well.

Compare that to how many millions of cards from the '90s that lost probably 50-70% of their initial value and sell for pennies on the dollar.

MeiGray sold eight Los Angeles Lakers game-worn Kobe Bryant jerseys this season. We sold four at retail for $7,500 within two weeks after we offered them ... after a season in which we auctioned four others earlier in the season for $10,020, $10,050, $12,020 and $8,785.

And since 2007-08, we have sold 28 Kobe Bryants. The cheapest went in auction for $6,500. All others exceeded $7,500, including home and road Finals jerseys in 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2009-10 that went for $19,040, $25,020, $35,270, $28,060, $29,520, and $20,060.

Do you think the regular-season Kobes will sell for $1,500-$3,000 in a few years? Are you telling me that legitimately authenticated Joe Montana jerseys, which probably sold for $2,000 to $3,000 in the '80s and '90s and now sell for $10,000 - $17,500, will suffer the same fate as cards in the '90s?

MeiGray in the last three seasons has sold approximately 5,000 common game-worn hockey jerseys for between $295-$595 in the last 2-3 years. Do you think that in 5-10 years those jerseys will sell in the secondary market for between $75-$150?

Again, I understand you comparing the significant increase in the numbers of available jerseys. But I believe you are ignoring the fact that the collecting base has drastically increased, as well.

And based on the sales records of companies like MeiGray, I believe that base is continuing to grow. Just watch the retail lists of the most reliable game-worn jersey companies. Jerseys are moving.

And I can also tell you from our consignment division, that MeiGray is seeing considerable movement in the secondary market. And you can ask our consignors for confirmation of that.

I don't mean for this to sound like a sales pitch. I just think it's important for all of us to take a broader look at the market when having an interesting discussion like this one.

Respectfully, Barry

[G1X]

Barry,

Kobe and Joe Montana are the exception to the rule because they are superstars and will always sell well. But what about the others? I can pick out football jersey examples all day long of the "next Hall-of-Famer" that sold well at high prices only to see the value and demand plummet as their careers stalled because of injury, fading production, etc. (Terrell Davis, Dante Culpepper, and Clinton Portis quickly come to mind.)

Anyone who believes that the current game-used marketplace has not been flooded over the past decade is either a retailer trying to sell their product or else someone not completely attuned to the marketplace. Look no further than teams such as the Colorado Rockies and Dallas Cowboys who have flooded the market over the past decade. It is hard to give those jerseys away because just about everyone who ever wanted one now has one (or two, or 10 . . .) in their collection.

Do I think that common hockey jerseys currently selling for $295 to $595 will be selling for $75 to $150 in five to 10 years? I will answer that question by asking you the current value of common Philadelphia Eagles and Texas Rangers jerseys from the late 1990s to early 2000s that you sold in the $295 to $595 price range.

Things look different through the eyes of the retailer as new product is "good" and usually sells well. Older stuff is not so good unless it is a star player or something rare and unique. Anyone who doubts that should look on ebay or have a long chat with someone like me who collects older football jerseys. The stuff is cheap for the most part, often selling for much less than it did back in the day.

Barry, by no means am I attempting to be critical of you or your organization as I think that you are second to none in what you do. I just think that the market is becoming over-saturated and the signs are already out there as pointed out in my Rockies and Cowboys examples. Like Chris, I see many similarities to the card bubble, but only time will tell how it plays out.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League and Atlanta Falcons uniforms, and any Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used items.

[Larry Pelliccioni]

Little did I know when I started this thread, the direction that it would take. I would commend many of the excellent points it brought out by collectors I have known for years and others for a shorter period of time but no less valuable in what they say or do in this hobby.
For me, I have been blessed with so many great items which have led to long term, deep and valued friendships.
I will never remember the details of all the items that have passed through my hands these past 37 years but shall always be warmed by the relationships it has helped me form over that same period.
Find joy in all you do and please continue to share as this thread has taught me much about the depth and quality of this Forum.
Larry Pelliccioni

[rufusandherschel]

Little did I know when I started this thread, the direction that it would take. I would commend many of the excellent points it brought out by collectors I have known for years and others for a shorter period of time but no less valuable in what they say or do in this hobby.
For me, I have been blessed with so many great items which have led to long term, deep and valued friendships.
I will never remember the details of all the items that have passed through my hands these past 37 years but shall always be warmed by the relationships it has helped me form over that same period.
Find joy in all you do and please continue to share as this thread has taught me much about the depth and quality of this Forum.
Larry Pelliccioni


Couldn't agree with you more ! ! !

[BarryMeisel]

Mark,

Thanks for your comments, the majority of which I disagree. But I respect your opinion and views.

As a dealer, you can authoritatively speak to your sales/experiences and you can give authoritative examples of teams with which you have specific knowledge. I have never worked with the Rockies or Cowboys, so I cannot comment on whether they flooded the market.

But your examples of the Eagles and Rangers are inaccurate with regard to our discussion. We're not talking about whether a $295 jersey bought in 2001 is worth $295 today. As I understand it, we're talking about whether the market is getting flooded with inventory in today's hobby.

Neither the Eagles nor Rangers increased their inventory when working with MeiGray. In fact, in the case of the Rangers, with our authentication procedures we were able to identify a Set 3 in the early 2000s as an unworn set when in previous years they had hit the market as potential game worns.

One of the fallacies of your argument is that you fail to consider that in any hobby like ours where the supply/demand ratio is a critical component, as time marches on, the population of a team's jerseys increases.

In 2000, there were at least 1,000 (and maybe 1,500) fewer Texas Rangers jerseys than there are today because the Texas Rangers wear jerseys each year to compete in the American League. Four sets of 25 jerseys equals 1,000 more jerseys.

At 100 jerseys per year, of course the market is going to grow. That's much different than saying the market is flooded because of our hobby.

The key difference, in my opinion, between the jersey and card market is that the card manufacturers in the early '90s pumped out tons of cards without any consideration for supply/demand.

If you are saying the Colorado Rockies and Dallas Cowboys did the same, I won't argue because I did not work with them. But MeiGray has worked with the Philadelphia Eagles and New York Giants, the Texas Rangers, as many as eight different NBA teams and as many as 22 different NHL teams.

We have shared the records of each team's inventory, and they did not markedly change in any season ... not in real numbers, and certainly not when balanced against the increase in the collecting base.

As far as what commons from 10 years ago will sell in 10 years, only time and the hobby'd development will tell. I agree that teams whose jerseys are pumped out in bloated numbers will be a problem. But for every team that did that across the four major sports, I will likely be able to point to 2-3 that have not.

Barry

[kprst6]

A picture is worth a thousand words...

To me, the following picture pretty much sums up the current sports card collecting industry. It's just a bunch of people & companies set out to get rich quick that has zero integrity and one can only wonder why a person would even collect card's when you see pictures like this and card's that are completely incorrect. There's no integrity with card companies, no accountability, no quality control, and strictly an agenda to make the most money possible. The talk should be about the sports card industry being ready to "bust" again. Charging $500.00 for a box of 4 card's that have fake patches, zero proof of authenticity (other than the card companies word), and taped on signatures can't be anywhere close to being worth the retail price. In Pittsburgh, Max Talbot charges $40.00 for his signature (which is ridiculous). I believe the last signing had 500+ fans. A card dealer was selling 1/999 signed Talbot cards for $8.00 (I offered $5.00 after the signing and the dealer said I was the only sale of the day) and shows how most card's are worth next to nothing.

46353

http://cgi.ebay.com/2011-Topps-Rising-Rookies-Mark-Ingram-Patch-Card-Error-/270787285320?pt=US_Football&hash=item3f0c2e1148

http://cgi.ebay.com/2011-Topps-RR-Mike-Pouncey-Team-Logo-RC-ERROR-Card-MP-/360382073126?pt=US_Football&hash=item53e8720926

[Tedw9]

Excellent thread!

Here are a couple of random thoughts, directed at no one, that have come into my head after reading through this.


One difference between the card boom of the 90's and today's game used is that back in the 80's-90's, people would buy blocks of 1000 of a players card to resell later for a profit. Then when every Tom, Dick and Harry pulled out the same rookie cards of the same player and tried to sell them at the same time, that, along with overproduction, flooded the market. Is it really possible we have a few "collector/investors" out there buying up all the star jerseys of one player in hopes of flipping them later for a profit, like card collectors used to do? Wouldn't we, as a community, notice this? If we know team XYZ is releasing all their jerseys and team star Joe Blow's jerseys are not to be found, wouldn't this raise a red flag with the community?

The other thought I had is the collector to collectible ratio. I can see how the overproduction of 80's-90's cards would flood the market. There could very well be 10 million Fleer Shaq rookies out there, but are there really 10 million collectors wanting one in their collections? I realize the number of game used collectors is much smaller, but using Barry's numbers, 1000 game used Rangers jerseys over 10 YEARS seems like such a small amount compared to the 10 million cards. I would like to think that over a 10 year period there would be WAY more than 1000 people wanting to add a Rangers game used jersey to their collections.

I don't think there could ever be enough game used items out there to ever totally tank the hobby. The only way I would think that could happen is if players started wearing a new jersey EVERY game, which I don't ever see happening. Even bats, which are much easier to acquire and out number jerseys, hold their value pretty well.

And if the value goes down, so be it. I'll still love my game used items and hopefully folks who don't collect will start, because they can afford to. I think it's our responsibility to recruit, educate and encourage new collectors to join our hobby.

[brewcrew]

Huge cosign as to the quality of this thread and the interesting points this discussion raises. Here are my observations, as a relative newbie:

1. I collected baseball cards back in the day. Of course, I held on to most of them hoping that someday they'd be worth some coin. Alas, it was for naught. I ended up trading a bunch to a guy who is trying to collect complete Topps sets from the late 1980s, and I auctioned off a bunch of them on this free website I joined called Listia (a good place to get free baseball cards, if you're like me and you don't want to pay for them). Even today's baseball cards are probably overvalued. There's no way I'd pay some of the prices that dealers are asking on eBay, unless it's something that's really necessary for my collection.

2. I used to be big into authentic jerseys and replicas. I've sold most of them off to pay for my recent foray into GU items. There's still a big market for those as well, as many of you know. This leads me to believe that there will always be people out there willing to pay more than you think for a given item. I've sold several of my authentics at a profit so that I could buy game used items for less. Go figure.

3. I went into this knowing that I'd be able to pick some stuff up on the cheap, and that I'd have to shell out more for other items. I haven't picked up anything too high-end save for a couple of Rickie Weeks game used pieces. And I know that I'll probably never get back what I paid for them. Do I care? Not really. Although I plan on insuring my collection at some point, I don't think that it's something that's going to, say, fund my retirement when the time comes. It's something that's fun for me and something that brings me closer to the game. Perhaps it's a bigger concern for those who have major $$ tied up in their collections.

4. It seems to me that as the game used industry is expanding, so is the market - as witnessed by those of us who join this board on a daily basis. I don't think there's a fair comparison between baseball cards and game used items. Even if (as a previous poster stated) a team produces 162 jerseys a year for a given player, you still won't see the oversaturation in the market that you did with baseball cards in the late 1980s and early 1990s. That was straight-up ridiculous.

[G1X]

Barry,

You stated that one of the fallacies of my argument is that I failed to consider that in any hobby like ours where the supply/demand ratio is a critical component, as time marches on, the population of a team's jerseys increases. Of course I considered it - that is precisely my point and one of the reasons I feel that the market is quickly becoming over-saturated with certain teams.

When teams such as the Cowboys and Rockies do not change styles and keep pumping jerseys into the marketplace each year - regardless of whether it is 3 sets or 30 - the market will eventually become over-saturated. You don't have to have a working relationship with these teams to see it, nor even a dealer for that matter, as most savy collectors figured this out a long time ago.

As for the Eagles/Texas Rangers example, perhaps we are looking at this a bit differently. You specifically asked Chris if he really thought that a common hockey jersey that you are currently selling for $295 to $595 would only garner $75 to $150 in five-to-10 years down the road. I answered that question by using your Texas Rangers and Eagles as examples (I could use many other examples including teams I have sold over the years). Common jerseys - as do most jerseys including some stars - tend to devalue over the years. There are different factors for this (which is worthy of another thread), but one thing that seems to always be in the mix is that supply outstrips demand.

Perhaps we disagree more on semantics with regards to flooding the market. You feel that a team putting out a few sets each year is not flooding the market, and I agree on a short-term basis. However, on a long-term basis - if the team does not change styles - it will eventually create a problem because of the accumulative effect. While I will wholeheartedly agree that the interest in collecting game-used has greatly increased over the years, I still do not think that the hobby can support the number of jerseys being made available over the long run. The secondary market, especially ebay and even on GUU, tends to bear this out.

One issue we definitely agree on is that that teams whose jerseys are pumped out in bloated numbers will be a problem. (In some cases, it already is a problem.) Some might not see over-saturation as being a problem. However, when the day comes when you need to sell that jersey and there is no market for it, you will quickly see the problem.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for World Football League and Atlanta Falcons uniforms, and any Willie McGee and Darren Lewis game-used items.

[BarryMeisel]

Mark,

So since I think we would both agree that teams are going to keep playing games, and they are going to keep wearing jerseys, the hobby will determine if the market is flooded by the following:

Are there enough collectors to buy and sell and keep the secondary market healthy for years to come?

I believe the answer is based on proper authentication of inventory (to ensure that 100 percent of the product is legit, something that was a major problem and is still, in a pocket of cases, a potential problem), teams not creating excessive inventory just to meet current demand (without regard to the future secondary market), and the diversity of those sets.

One thing we have not discussed is the diversity, and you just alluded to it in your last post. One legit variable on teams that sell well vs. teams that sell poorly is an array of styles, and an array of players. We have found that certain markets sell better than others because the players change often. This might not translate to a team's on-field success, but we have found collectors love it when new players arrive. It means more players to collect.

Finally, I think we would all agree that we all can help the hobby by properly authenticating and marketing. We have found that collectors enjoy knowing exactly when and where jerseys are worn. That's something that did not exist 10-20 years ago, and we have found that a large segment of collectors who might not be hardcore collectors have joined the hobby because they can confidently purchase a jersey from a game they attended, or a moment they cherished for whatever reason.

All the best, Barry

[otismalibu]

Not a comment on the supply/demand aspect of jerseys/cards, but...

Game worn jerseys seem to parallel what the card companies started doing a few years back. With cards, it's always the creation of rarity. Number it. Then make a signed version. Then make a signed version with a swatch. Then one only numbered to 100 or 50 or 10. Alternates, Latin Night, Winter Classic, etc. are the chase cards. Along with Finals jerseys, ones with special patches, etc.

What if Meigray took 24 Kobe jerseys from a certain season and had him sign and number each jersey /24? Maybe have special tagging and a fancy COA. Bet those would sell for more and I bet that #1, #8 and #24 would would be in high demand. Like the card companies, this could be done every year for dozens of players.

Even the Meigray grab bag (not sure if they still do this) looks very much like the cracking of boxes.

I don't know how the card companies as a whole are making out, but I still see some pretty big money being spent on the chase cards.

[frikativ54]

Alternates, Latin Night, Winter Classic, etc. are the chase cards. Along with Finals jerseys, ones with special patches, etc.

I totally see this. Sometimes I wonder if the Turn Back the Clock/one night promo items are just glorified money-makers. I've never been attracted to the TBTC items, but they sure command a pretty penny in auctions.

[staindsox]

You specifically asked Chris if he really thought that a common hockey jersey that you are currently selling for $295 to $595 would only garner $75 to $150 in five-to-10 years down the road.

That is exactly what I believe.

Also, looking at superstars, take Kobe.

1) If he suffered a career-ending injury tomorrow, the values on his game used stuff would severely drop. Kobe is expected to put up monster career numbers. If he doesn't put up those all-time caliber numbers, his jerseys won't pull $6k.

2) If he does play another 10 years, there will be some many Kobe gamers out there at that point, you won't get $6k a jersey.

The same goes for for stuff like A-Rod and Jeter bats. Prices have already dropped a ton from a few years ago and I am certain they will continue to follow that pattern. Every bat players are shipped is saved, signed, and stamped with a COA sticker, and added to a Steiner stockpile.

That is my take on a flooded market. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Chris

[mad87man]

I think signed stuff isn't good b/c like me there are collectors out there who don't collect Game used and signed. I mean it might but i don't know. I think one thing that affects the hobby now is how often players switch teams. Not many players stick with the same team like in years past.

[Jules9]

The gameworn community reminds me of the housing market.

Ten years ago a house cost $225,000...5 years ago a house cost $505,000...so lets build more houses and more houses cause in ten years these houses have to be worth $1 million dollars. Today the house sells for $430,000 :):):D


I hope I'm wrong but I doubt a $595 Riley Cote jersey will increase in price but hey you never know.

[calgrad1999]

Interesting Topic - Thought I'd give me 2 cents

I collected cards in the 80s, which was obviously well before the internet/ebay availability boom. The primary way to obtain items was to buy cards at grocery stores, buy/trade with friends, and by going to card shops/shows. I can only imagine how limited the game used hobby was back in the 80s-90s. I'm sure I would have bought a number of suboptimal pieces that didn't really fit my needs, but allowed me to continue collecting.

I think HOFer's, players with cult followings, popular players will tend to hold their values well, if not appreciate, even if the supply of their pieces are relatively available. In terms of run of the mill sports memorabilia, once a player retires, and is out of the spotlight for awhile, unless he's a HOF'er/or items are limited, tend to depreciate significantly. To some extent, I think you see this with a number of run of the mill common player jerseys/game used memorabilia as well as some semistars/stars that didn't have a robust following.

There are a number of big dealers who charge $300-750 for a common player's jersey. Quite often when the original buyer goes to sell the piece, they might get $150-250 if that for it. The dealer's pricepoint is so high, no matter what the supply or demand for the player/piece is, it's impossible to get your money back. Ultimately this could lead to more of a revision to the mean in the future, where dealers might need to lower their prices in the future to keep "burned" collectors interested.

Another point I think that's worth considering is that professional sports' popularity is relatively high at this point in time, which I think boosts the value of complimentary goods, such as game used memorabilia. If the popularity wanes, or if society begins to look more to other avenues for collecting/entainment, become disillusioned with sports, etc - this could really hurt the business and drive prices down.

In a nutshell, like everything else, stocks, real estate, commodities, etc, the price point where you get in is vital in terms of retaining value, making money etc. If you do overpay for an item, you'd better like it or you might be wearing it.

[commando]

GUU's own Classifieds section is a good example of what's happening these days in the hobby (at least for items $500 and less). Some items get snapped up right away, so you know it was a good day for both the buyer and seller, who probably collects that particular player or team. Other items sit there for a while, then the seller drops the price to entice the casual collectors or bargain hunters.

All things considered, it seems to me like the newer, authenticated "common" items are usually sold for a loss. How many people are looking to buy an authenticated GU baseball from a typical game, thrown by an average pitcher and/or hit by an average batter? In my opinion, common authenticated baseballs are probably the worst investment in the hobby (if we must talk dollars).

Common player jerseys also have trouble selling for their original team-direct dealer prices, because there is no bidding war between two or more interested parties. Believe me, I understand that when a team-direct dealer sells a common jersey for $250, he is not making a $250 profit. But the fact still remains that the market is very soft for common jerseys worn since 2000.

My definition of a "common" jersey is a style that was released in any reasonable quantity. There are no common Steelers jerseys, regardless of the player. The Cowboys, on the other hand....