I think I got screwed on a 2006 David Ortiz Game Used Jersey

[nesportspromotions]

Hi Guys,

I purchased a pair of 2006 David Ortiz “game used” jerseys. One home and one road. I purchased the jerseys directly from one of Big Papi's Dominican friends. (FYI: He was on TV with Ortiz during the Homerun Derby at the 2006 All-Star game.)

The thing I'm SURE of is the autographs on both are 100% real. (Autographs are my field of expertise not GAME USED.)

So I showed both jerseys to my buddy and he said the tags on the seams inside of the jerseys have the wrong number.

Does anyone else know what the tagging on 2006 Majestic Game Used jerseys is supposed to look like?


Here's the front tagging and why I thought they were real:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_1.JPG


Here's what's throwing the whole thing off:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_2.JPG


Specifically THESE numbers:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_3.JPG


HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[whatupyos]

Hello,

From what I understand the inside tag code for most game used jerseys by majestic as of the last few years should read 0062 instead of 6200. Usually 6200 means its a retail jersey and 0062 would be a team manufactured jersey. Not in all cases though, because I have learned there might be a few teams that use the 6200 code for game jerseys, however, I don't know if the Red Sox is one of those teams. This is the informaiton I have gathered. I could be wrong, so I welcome anyone to either support me or give new information or correct me if I am wrong.

Maybe there is a Red Sox expert out there?

[trsent]

The jerseys look real to me, the only problem is the "6200" tagging. It looks like the other strip tagging is all original. Maybe Ortiz ordered these on his own? Where else would someone come up with the correct strip tag for an Ortiz jersey? I would say the jerseys look good and request the guy who sold them to you sign a letter stating his relationship with David Ortiz.

[hblakewolf]

A fellow Forum reader was selling a handful of 2006 Red Sox game jerseys here a few months ago. I purchased the home Ortiz. It has the same exact strip tag under the Majestic tag, however, has the standard 0062 code. Personally, I would not touch a Majestic superstar jersey with a 6200 tag unless it had a team LOA that specifically noted the 6200 code, showed a ton of use and noted that it was worn for the 2006 season.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[nesportspromotions]

Hey Howard,

Do me a favor...

Can you look CLOSELY between the Majestic Tag and the white strip tag. See if there is a small tag that says "54" on it. (You probably can't see the "54" b/c it's stitched over.) On the ones I have, the strip tag sewn right over the small regular old size tag. You might have to kind of bend the two tags so they spread apart a little.

(Please don't tell me your is framed. LOL!)

Thanks so much!

[hblakewolf]

It actually is framed! It's in my wife's practice, however, I'll try to stop by and remove it from the display case. Give me a few days.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[dcrules01]

I have about 6 game issued jerseys fot different teams.They all have the 0062 tag . But from reading threads on here they say some game worn jerseys do carry the 6200 tag wheather its a Majestic error or thats what the player requested.Im no expert far from it.Just wanted to share..

[kingjammy24]

re: the 6200 code. although intended for retail, they've been known to make it into clubhouses and used in games. however, much like early rawlings jerseys missing a flag tag, i'd want some team provenance if i was going for a 6200. i don't think a 6200 automatically and conclusively means it couldn't have been game used. i just think it's less likely than a 0062. as such, as howard said, you'd want some team provenance and legit game use.

personally, i think the bigger issue illustrated here is the problem in players ordering items solely for the purpose of reselling them for profit. as soon as i saw mention of "big papi's dominican friends" i had nauseous flashbacks of griffey jr unloading truckloads of stuff to his childhood friends so they could make some extra cash. the details are foggy in my memory but i recall his friends treating the arrangement like a bottomless atm machine. griffey was the biggest thing going during the early-mid 90s and his friends had no shortage of buyers more than willing to hand over cash for the items. (i'm sure his friends reported all of the income/gifts on their taxes). it was a win-win for almost everyone; griffey was fattening the pockets of his friends/entourage rich at little to no cost to himself. the only ones not making out were the buyers; it's difficult to imagine that all of the bats were actually used by griffey. as quickly as he could order them, his friends could sell them. although griffey wasn't the only one deliberately flooding the market, i doubt this practice was at the level it is now.

you'd think that the best place to get an item would be directly from the player. this is only true if the player didn't intentionally and artificially inflate the supply of his items. there's clearly a difference in the items coming from a player who's simply clearing out his garage after 4 yrs and those coming from a player who's running a second business to subsidize half the population of his island hometown. if a player said he orders boxes of jerseys, they're all perfectly tagged and coded and that he sells them without actually wearing them, then how desireable is player provenance in that case? i'd say it's worthless.

there's a good chance that joel is right when said that ortiz may have ordered these. what does that really mean though? is it at all likely that manny ramirez didn't inform his good friend ortiz about how to make thousands for his friends and family simply by ordering and selling unworn jerseys? if ortiz ordered them, then the jerseys should look good. as for joel's suggestion that you obtain a letter from one of big papi's friends, i have to wonder about the real value of such a letter. would it read: "big papi gives me a box of jerseys to sell every 2 months. he has them sent straight from the factory to my home. he does this with 4 other friends. this jersey is from one of those boxes"?

everyone wants to ride the gravy train and it's making certain player provenance worthless. griffey, ramirez, ortiz, and arod are a few that come to mind.

in many cases, i much prefer team provenance. it's far less likely for a team to engage in this sort of questionable behavior. maybe i'm wrong but i have trouble seeing a team's merchandising/retail sales department deliberately engaging in a campaign to mass-order items and intentionally misrepresent them for the sake of profit. what "big papi's dominican friends" do in their private time may be another matter.

as for this particular ortiz jersey, who knows. nesports, although a 6200 isn't promising, it doesn't automatically mean the item is bad. does the jersey show any wear?

rudy.

[stkmtimo]

Rudy - great post and I agree fully. I also find the fact that his "Domincan friends" were selling his stuff. You really have to wonder where this stuff comes from. On second thought, you don't. It's unfortunate, but we know where it comes from.

I don't think we can write this jersey off. Rob Steinmetz writes on tagging sometimes on his website.

Check this out:
http://authenticgamers.com/Water%20Cooler.html

Good luck,
Tim

[sandman02910]

Just wanted to add that I own a 2006 Jonathan Papelbon game used home jersey which has the same type of strip tagging as your Ortiz but has the 0062 wash tag inside.
Thanks
Scott

[kingjammy24]

previous NYDAILYNEWS article from 2004:

"... San Diego-based FBI agent Tim Fitzsimmons says athletes are no more reliable than anyone else when it comes to memorabilia. "People need to do their own due diligence," says Fitzsimmons, who has been a part of major investigations into memorabilia fraud. "Just because something comes with a letter of authenticity doesn't mean it's authentic."

Mutzabaugh learned that lesson the hard way. Soon after he bought his Palmeiro gear through Clearwater, Fla.-based Authentic Sports Investments, he discovered that the helmet, shoes, bat and batting gloves ASI had certified as real weren't even used in the 500-home run game. The company insisted the Palmeiro stuff was as-advertised even though Mutzabaugh provided photos and a video he says prove it wasn't. After a frustrating 10-month series of phone calls, e-mails and letters, the company exchanged the Palmeiro gear for for Sammy Sosa memorabilia. "You don't know if this stuff is real or not," says Mutzabaugh, a U.S. Navy master chief.

ASI president Scot Monette acknowledges the company had to exchange Mutzabaugh's purchase, and he says it is taking steps to eliminate the problems that mar his scandal-stained industry. The company, for example, is creating a Web site for Alex Rodriguez that will allow collectors to verify items through its online database. "It's a very labor-intensive process but we've made that commitment because Alex is very committed to guaranteeing authenticity for his fans," Monette says.

Collectors, though, are taking a wait-and-see approach. Former Yankee Ruben Rivera was booted from the team in 2002 after he gave Derek Jeter's glove and bat to an associate of ASI, and the company's reputation in memorabilia circles is mixed at best. Mutzabaugh says he won't trust ASI's efforts.

"The fox," Mutzabaugh says, "is watching the chicken coop."

Before the late '80s, most baseball players got through the season with a handful of jerseys and two or three mitts. They used bats until they cracked or lost their pop. They may have kept or sold equipment that had historic or sentimental value. The rest was donated to charity, given to kids or tossed in the trash.

Mark McGwire and Jose Canseco, then teammates on the Oakland A's, were the first to sell and market their game-used gear, Evans says. Other budding superstars - including Ken Griffey Jr., Sammy Sosa and A-Rod - soon followed.

Demand quickly outstripped supply. Fans in North America and Japan showed they were willing to spend thousands of dollars for a glove or jersey from their favorite players; card companies buy game-used gear by the truckload, then cut it up and insert it into popular and pricy special edition collections.

"Ken Griffey Jr. got into it to help out his buddies, the guys he went to school with. He gave them the stuff and they sold it. It was a way to allow his friends and family to share his wealth," says Josh Evans, chairman of Lelands.com, an auction house. "The first wave of stuff was great. It was obvious he had that stuff for a long time. But then stuff started coming out that really didn't look game-used."

Rodriguez was another player who let his pals handle his memorabilia. "It was a good way for a young player to do business," A-Rod says. "There was great interest in it."

A group of his friends - known in the industry as "the muchachos" - soon became the primary source for A-Rod game-used jerseys, gloves, bats and other items. But seasoned collectors soon started to question A-Rod offerings - the muchachos, they say, did not seem interested in properly tracking and labeling his gear. Two years ago, for example, ASI offered a white A-Rod autographed Texas jersey from the game in which he hit his third and fourth home runs of the 2002 season. When Ed Schauder checked photos from MLB.com game archives, he saw that the Rangers had worn blue jerseys for that game. "That's why you have to conduct your own due diligence," says Schauder. "That's why I do my own research before I buy anything."

Other collectors are leery of A-Rod gloves. The All-Star infielder has long favored the Rawlings Pro-6HF model, a tan mitt with an H-shaped web, but other models have flooded the market, raising eyebrows.

ASI consigns some of its memorabilia to American Memorabilia.com, and earlier this month, the auction house sold a Rawlings Pro-AR3, autographed and signed "game-used" by Rodriguez, for $7,200. American Memorabilia advertised the mitt as A-Rod's "first game-used glove as a Yankee," but sophisticated collectors suspect Rodriguez may simply have used it for a few innings in spring training, then passed it on to his reps.

"That's just manufacturing memorabilia," says glove expert Dennis Esken. "Game-used means it was used in a Major League game. It doesn't mean A-Rod played catch with it."

American Memorabilia president Victor Moreno said he did not know when Rodriguez used the glove, or how long he used it. "I'm not going to question A-Rod," he says.

Rodriguez declined to talk about problems related to his memorabilia sales when approached by a Daily News reporter before a game in Baltimore earlier this week. Monette says the player has impeccable integrity. Some of the proceeds from A-Rod memorabilia, he adds, are funneled to Rodriguez' favorite charities.

"Alex is the type who always takes the high road," Monette says. "He wants to touch fans and remove the stigma of being the $250 million man."

Monette says a lot of the gripes about ASI come from rivals and that his company has taken steps to eliminate problems. The muchachos are gone, and the company now deals directly with Rodriguez, meeting with him every month or so to collect game-used gear. Rodriguez has become more diligent in tracking and labeling his equipment, Monette says.

And in May, the company announced it will create a Web site to sell autographed memorabilia directly to customers. Holograms will be placed on game-used equipment and other collectibles. Collectors can type serial numbers from the holograms into a online database, a program that will verify the authenticity of their purchase.

Rodriguez will also use the site to conduct live chats with fans.

The Web site will be similar to a widely respected authentication program created in 2001 by Major League Baseball, but Monette says it will have some significant improvements: It will include photos of the items being used or signed by Rodriguez.

"No one has ever done this in this business before," he says. "Everyone makes mistakes, but we've decided we can't make mistakes from this point on."

Memorabilia insiders, however, are reserving judgement until the Web site takes off later this year. The only way for consumers to protect themselves, they say, is to do their homework, research items that interest them, and make sure they're buying what they've been told they're buying.

"Nobody has clean hands in this process, even collectors," Schauder says. "A lot of people want to believe there's a Santa even when in your heart you know there's no Santa. If you don't do your homework, you're gonna get burned."
--------------------------------------------------------------------

i don't know what's funnier; moreno saying "i'm not going to question a-rod" or monette saying "we've decided we can't make mistakes from this point on" prior to causing their biggest client to sever all ties with the company. i'm bowled over by the colossal talent it must take to sink an entire subsidiary with only 1 sale.

i wonder if ortiz has any muchachos?

rudy.

[stkmtimo]

""Alex is the type who always takes the high road," Monette says. "He wants to touch fans and remove the stigma of being the $250 million man."

And how much was/is he selling his memorabilia for? :eek:

Tim

[beantown]

Hi Guys,

I purchased a pair of 2006 David Ortiz “game used” jerseys. One home and one road. I purchased the jerseys directly from one of Big Papi's Dominican friends. (FYI: He was on TV with Ortiz during the Homerun Derby at the 2006 All-Star game.)

The thing I'm SURE of is the autographs on both are 100% real. (Autographs are my field of expertise not GAME USED.)

So I showed both jerseys to my buddy and he said the tags on the seams inside of the jerseys have the wrong number.

Does anyone else know what the tagging on 2006 Majestic Game Used jerseys is supposed to look like?


Here's the front tagging and why I thought they were real:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_1.JPG


Here's what's throwing the whole thing off:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_2.JPG


Specifically THESE numbers:
http://www.sportsworld-usa.com/larry/ebay-sept/2006_tagging_3.JPG


HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Just out of curiosity, does the jersey have extra sleeve and body length, as Ortiz Gamers have?

[bigtime59]

Unless there was a Majestic error, a game jersey of an established, 25-man roster player should almost always (97%+) be a 0062. From what I have heard (and this primarily applies to Baltimore, Colorado and Toronto) teams will break out 6200s from retail stock for callups or spares, if they're out of stock of a certain size or color in 6200 jerseys. Papi doesn't really play the field, so he shouldn't be wearing out his jerseys too badly. I'd be concerned about this one.
My favorite ASI/ESM laugher was a Miguel Tejada game worn jersey that I saw at the Cleveland national--with serifed numbers--that "came from Tejada's brother in law." The Orioles haven't worn serifed numbers in a non-TBC jersey since the early to mid eighties...and this was no TBC jersey!
Mark Sutton
bigtime39@aol.com

[allstarsplus]

David Ortiz is an exclusive on autographs with Steiner. Steiner got from David some game used jerseys too. I don't know the wash tags so maybe Bob M. or Mr. Cowan to research it for us.

Here's the link:

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/control/product/~pcategory=/~category=/~pid=ORTIJES000006

This could also be the situation of David ordering on his own additional jerseys.

[sportscentury]

David Ortiz is an exclusive on autographs with Steiner. Steiner got from David some game used jerseys too. I don't know the wash tags so maybe Bob M. or Mr. Cowan to research it for us.

Here's the link:

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/control/product/~pcategory=/~category=/~pid=ORTIJES000006

This could also be the situation of David ordering on his own additional jerseys.

Andrew,

Great idea. Where is Brooks "Jay Z" Cowan when you need him? Perhaps "Bob M." can step in in Jigga's absence (since I'm sure running Def Jam is keeping him very busy).

Reid

[Eric]

Please do not expect to hear from Brooks Cowan for a while. Chris and I are working out his suspension from the site for violating the rules.
I will advise when we have an answer
Eric

[indyred]

I would love to see MLB and other sports do there game used the way the NHL does for the most part. If Meigray or a company did a similar method that they use on hockey jerseys, special serial # tags on the game used jersey along with hologram coa with that specific tag serial# documented would be great. No 2 serial #'s would be the same. I know it may never happen for all teams, I just wish a few would take more of an interest in protecting there game used stuff from the fakes......I know mlb does have there own authentication system for there auctions items, would be nice to see this really expanded and let a company tag everything that is used in games before it is sold to the public....

[sportscentury]

Please do not expect to hear from Brooks Cowan for a while. Chris and I are working out his suspension from the site for violating the rules.
I will advise when we have an answer
Eric


Eric,

Thanks for your update. And thanks, as always, for your good work. Honestly, I don't have interest in EVER hearing from Brooks Cowan again - It would behoove Steiner to replace him, at least on the forum, with an honest and authentic Steiner representative. This situation certainly did not help Steiner and I think forum members (including myself) would find it refreshing if they responded by being active on the forum in a more positive and regular way. There are clearly many forum members who do business with Steiner and trust their name ... a reputation that can be salvaged by doing the right thing. Do you know if there is an official response from Steiner regarding the Brooks Cowan situation?

Reid

[nesportspromotions]

Quick update...

I need to preface what I'm about to type with: I am not full of crap. I don't tell fish stories.

Now that I got that out of the way...

I know someone that works for the Red Sox. (I'm not saying who.) I asked him to check out Papi's gamers. He literally went into the clubhouse during the game and read me the numbers from jerseys in Ortiz's locker. First of all, Papi has 10 or 11 jerseys in his locker. The homes all have "6200" on the inside tag. The away jerseys all have no inside tag or not a complete tag. There are no numbers on the roads. No "0062" or "6200" at all. They look like they were snipped just under the "Made in USA" part.

So what can I gather from my TRUSTWORTHY friend's phone call?

#1 Papi wears a lot of jerseys.

#2 My 2 jerseys are more than likely legit gamers although they might not have seen all that many games.

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm feeling much better about my purchase now that my buddy verified them for me.

[ironmanfan]

I'm curious why you didn't contact your Red Sox insider first before even posting to this board?

[nesportspromotions]

The original person I showed these jerseys to said there was NO WAY they could be right because of those numbers. "6200 is ONLY RETAIL" I knew nothing about the inside tag. I saw the strip tags and thought they were perfect.

My first thought was this forum b/c guys here know their stuff. I really thought I got screwed out of a bunch of money and was in a panic.

Once I saw replies that said some guys have seen some variance in numbering on those inside tags I thought there might be hope. Then I asked my Fenway buddy to see what goes on in Papi's locker.

Now I feel pretty confident they are real.

[hblakewolf]

I agree-why would you ask for our opinion first, and then discuss this with your "contact" who can just walk directly into the clubhouse and dig around inside of Ortiz's locker?? Why would you not contact him first?

Sounds to me like you are trying to make your questionable jersey legit by now referencing some sort of "insider information" obtained from your "contact".

If you indeed have a Red Sox contact who works for the team and has total access to the clubhouse, why did you make mention in your initial post that "So I showed both jerseys to my buddy and he said the tags on the seams inside of the jerseys have the wrong number."????

If your "contact" can just walk into the clubhouse, I would have to believe he is in some type of position to secure a jersey directly from Ortiz, correct? You did mention that Ortiz's friends sold you the shirts, correct? If that's the case, then one has to believe that Ortiz himself would sell one of his 11 jerseys directly to a team employee, correct? Why would you have gone to the trouble of dealing with Ortiz's friends, when you could have worked a deal directly between your contact and Ortiz, or better yet, have your contact introduce you to Ortiz!

I have a good friend who works for the Mariners. Back in 1991, she was aware that I collected buy/sell game worn equipment, and as such, introduced me to Griffey Jr. and his "posse" who sold me several game worn jerseys, hats, bats, and a glove. I have to believe any person with a friend who has total access to a locker room would ask for such a favor or at least a chance to meet such a superstar and ask to buy a shirt, especially given the fact that you are aware of Ortiz selling his jerseys to the public.

I find your story about your "contact" a bit hard to believe. What I do believe is that you purchased a mint jersey that you have now discovered has retail tagging, and have created this elaborate story to try to make it "legit" in order to resell it.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

why would ortiz (or any player) have home AND road jerseys in their locker during a single game? if it's a home game, why are road jerseys in his locker? if it's a road game, why did the team bring home jerseys? anyone?

i've only seen a couple of lockers in my day and they typically only held bp jerseys and the uniform needed for that series. home jerseys never went on the road. road jerseys werent put into home lockers. i was once told by a batboy that the equipment manager would fill each locker with the jerseys needed for that specific game. why is the redsox equipment manager putting road jerseys in ortiz's locker during home games? i'd love to hear other's experiences.

thanks,

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Rudy-
Excellent point! I'm not aware of road jerseys being hung up inside of the home locker. The home jersey, pants, sliding pants, hat, batting gloves, bats, etc. are housed inside the locker. I can tell you that the Mariners do not keep the road jerseys in the home lockers, and up until last year, the Phillies did not either (have not seen this years lockers).

Rudy, excellent post.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[worldchamps]

Remember the midget that Pedro would take into the lockeroom when he was at Boston, you would always see him on TV especially during lockeroom celebrations. Maybe he is the "inside source".

Bill

[worldchamps]

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Pedro-Martinez-Jump.article.jpg

I found a picture

Bill

[sylbry]

Wasn't there just a thread on players who trade jerseys? If the "Big Papi has 12 jersey's in his locker" story is indeed true could it be they are jerseys Ortiz signs or trades or sells to players on the other team? Maybe they were waiting in his locker for him to sign after the game for a charity? I am just throwing out some theories.

[kingjammy24]

sylbry,
although i haven't seen many lockers, the ones i have seen have pretty much all been the same; street clothes, pre-game uniform (incl workout clothes + lots of tshirts), and the appropriate game uniform (usually a couple of sets of the same uni. eg: 2 road jerseys, 2 road pants, in case of damage, theft, etc).

11 game jerseys in 1 locker seems like a lot. the equipment manager and his staff, not the players, are responsible for having uniforms ready and laid out for each game. i'm bewildered as to why the redsox equipment staff put 11 jerseys into ortiz's locker for a game. what did they possibly think he was going to do with 11 jerseys in 1 game? as howard has stated, for the home team there's often an equipment room which is where road jerseys would be kept during home games. road teams don't typically bring their home uniforms.

having said all of that, i agree that one likely hypothesis could be that these were jerseys that ortiz ordered in order to trade/sell. however, what does that really say? that they weren't gameworn and were never intended to be gameworn? maybe that's why they all had the 6200 code?
rob, howard, and juan all gave great info regarding this practice. long story short, they said that players order these jerseys and they may, at times, not be completely correct. majestic may be sending customized retail jerseys, not exact player versions. if ortiz ordered 8 jerseys solely to trade, would you want one of these unworn jerseys that he never intended to wear? i wouldn't even call it a game-issue because they weren't issued to wear in a game. they were issued to sell or trade.

at any rate, in my limited experience, i haven't seen 11 game jerseys in a locker or road and home jerseys in a locker in a single game. (i don't understand why they'd lay out road jerseys during a home game or why they'd bother shipping home jerseys for a road series). i'd very much appreciate hearing other people's experiences regarding this.

since everyone loves pictures, here are a few lockers from boston and atlanta:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8899/locker2yp8.jpg

rudy.

[nesportspromotions]

To Howard Wolf:
I am NOT trying to sell these jerseys. I am NOT a deceitful person. My game used expert buddy that knows the code “0062” said there was no way they could be game jerseys if they were “6200”. When I heard this, the first source I thought of and least embarrassing place for information is this forum. It’s an embarrassment to purchase bad stuff. I came to this forum first simply because I trust the people that post here. I trust there opinion and I TRUSTED the fact I wouldn’t be ridiculed here. (Well that trust is now gone.)

And by the way Howard the Red Sox are not the MARINERS. (That is not meant to be an insult to the Mariners.) In 2006 teams know a lot more about memorabilia and how to make their own money off it, (especially the RED SOX). The Red Sox will milk every penny they can out of that stadium and try to sell anything they can. For instance: the Red Sox themselves now sell game used bats at around 2 times market prices. In 1991 the world was a different place. If Griffey played for the Mariners NOW and your same contact set you up with him again Griffey would tell you to screw then tell the organization about your contact to ensure she would get fired.

The Red Sox have very strict rules regarding employees so my “contact” actually can’t get stuff. They are not supposed to ask for autographs or gratuities of any sort from a player. Earlier this year a security guard asked Pedro Martinez to sign a ball when he came in with the Mets. He happily signed it for him. This happened right in front of Larry Lucchino and John Henry. He was fired within an hour. He worked there for 8 years and got a 2004 W.S. Ring etc. He was fired for a single autograph. What do you think the odds are that Ortiz could sell a worker a jersey and the worker would still have a job? The Red Sox have just about locked down Fenway this year. Next time you are there try to notice all the surveillance cameras around the place. I’ll bet there are 200+ non-broadcast cameras in there now.

There used to be all kinds of equipment and jerseys coming out of there. Now there is not. Why? They hired a new guy that is like Big Brother watching over the place. He has clamped down on any possible tokens of appreciation that players could give to workers. There used to be a hazy gray area. Now it is black and white. You do X, Y or Z and you are fired. That’s it. No ifs, ands or buts.

BTW this bit you wrote is simply not nice:
‘I find your story about your "contact" a bit hard to believe. What I do believe is that you purchased a mint jersey that you have now discovered has retail tagging, and have created this elaborate story to try to make it "legit" in order to resell it.’

ALSO: Papi lives under different rules than the rest of the team. He gets what he wants. If he calls up Majestic and orders 81 home and 81 road jerseys all for 2006 it is now my understanding he’ll get them dropped off at his locker within 24 hours. He can have a zillion home and road jerseys sitting at his locker if he wanted. So what does that mean about the value of his jerseys? It can’t help it at all…

To Rudy:
Your pics you have posted are not from Fenway Park. Also the equipment manager is responsible for a lot of what a player has in his locker but they do not dictate EVERYTHING they have in their locker. Such as skin lotion, jewelry, cologne or 10-11 extra jerseys. If a superstar like Ortiz has extra stuff in his locker the equipment manager doesn’t confiscate it. Something tells me Papi put the extra home and road jerseys in his locker not the equipment manager. I can’t say 100% my jerseys are game used. The 6200 labeling puts doubt on it. But the fact that he has jerseys in his locker just like the two I recently purchased helps me feel comforted. He could have ordered a ton of jerseys to wear only one time and then give them to his boys to make some cash. No harm, no foul but they are just not all that rare. There’s a glut of Papi strip tagged 2006 jerseys now. The jerseys are probably worth a lot less that I paid but I feel better about them now. The money is not the issue. The authenticity is.

Thanks to everyone for your opinions. (Even Howard… but please try not to be so nasty next time.)

[hblakewolf]

Interesting comments:

In your earlier post you note, "I know someone that works for the Red Sox. (I'm not saying who.) I asked him to check out Papi's gamers. He literally went into the clubhouse during the game and read me the numbers from jerseys in Ortiz's locker.

Now you mention, "The Red Sox have very strict rules regarding employees so my “contact” actually can’t get stuff...Earlier this year a security guard asked Pedro Martinez to sign a ball... He was fired within an hour. notice all the surveillance cameras around the place. I’ll bet there are 200+ non-broadcast cameras in there now.

There used to be all kinds of equipment and jerseys coming out of there. Now there is not. Why? They hired a new guy that is like Big Brother watching over the place. He has clamped down on any possible tokens of appreciation that players could give to workers. There used to be a hazy gray area. Now it is black and white. You do X, Y or Z and you are fired. That’s it. No ifs, ands or buts.

Based on your most recent post, you expect us to believe your "contact" just walked into the clubhouse, stood in front of Ortiz's locker, and examined over a dozen jerseys inside of his locker (during a game no less!) to try to assit you in determining if your jersey was real? He did this knowing that an 8 year Red Sox employee was recently fired for asking for an autograph, knowing that there are over 200 cameras and an individual is roaming the place strictly looking for problems and crooks?
Did he happen to mention that he also took a quick dip in the Jacuzzi and tried a plate of the post-game spread, all before the 7th inning stretch?

You can't be serious!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

nesports:
i'm aware that ortiz is free to keep whatever he likes in his locker. in fact, i even said that i agreed that a likely hypothesis may be that the 11 jerseys in his locker may be those that he ordered. however, you're missing two crucial points:
how can ortiz wear road jerseys if they're sitting in his locker at fenway? and
why is ortiz keeping road jerseys in his locker at fenway instead of in the equipment room where all of the other player's road jerseys are kept?

"Something tells me Papi put the extra road jerseys in his locker.."

why is he intentionally stocking his home locker with road jerseys he ordered? he certainly can't wear them at home, can he?

when the team packs for a road trip, the equipment staff fetch the road jerseys from the equipment room. for ortiz they fetch them from his locker? and then when they return, all of the bags are unpacked and everyone's road uniforms are placed back in the equipment room. yet when ortiz's bags are unpacked, his road jerseys are put in his locker? does big papi not trust the equipment room?

you think he ordered them, received them at fenway, then takes them on the road and wears them, brings them back to fenway and chooses to personally store them in his locker for some wierd reason? i can think of a more plausible alternative.

"He could have ordered a ton of jerseys to wear only one time.."
or he could have ordered a ton of jerseys to not wear at all. ordering "a zillion jerseys" is different than actually wearing a zillion jerseys.

"So what does that mean about the value of his jerseys?"
if ortiz is ordering boxes of jerseys then, as you said, "the money is not the issue. The authenticity is..". if you're a believer in occam's razor, then how's this for an alternate theory to the ones provided above:
ortiz receives boxes of jerseys at his home, doesn't bother taking them on the road, and every now and then brings a few from his home to the ballpark for his muchachos. the road jerseys he actually uses are packed and unpacked just like everyone elses and kept in the equipment room. ortiz is essentially operating a side business selling huge amounts of un-used jerseys, and that's why these road jerseys aren't with the others in the equipment room but rather in his locker (because they were never packed/unpacked for any road trips. they simply made the trek from his boston home to fenway so there'd be no reason to put them anywhere but his locker) and that's why they're coded 6200. i'm not sure why the fact that he may be doing this comforts you.

at the end of the day, it's you that has to be comfortable with your items. from the sounds of it, you're quite pleased so i think this thread is done.

on a side note, i'm sure your buddy looked great on the security cameras going through ortiz's jerseys examining each tag. some guy poking into ortiz's locker during a game like he's looking for spare change.

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Isn't it possible that Papi ordered extras to trade with other players both home and away and has some in his locker...Why is this so unbelievable....

[trsent]

Isn't it possible that Papi ordered extras to trade with other players both home and away and has some in his locker...Why is this so unbelievable....

Soccer players trade, maybe Red Sox players trade.

[CollectGU]

Below was taken from another thread on the baord. After reading the story, i think that Papi having extra jerseys for this very reason, as he is one of the most popular players in the league is indeed plausable:



Here's an interesting article on players who trade jerseys with other players.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi... ate=20060828 (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003230873&slug=seam28&date=20060828)

I knew this went on, but didn't realize it was so widespread. Adds a new wrinkle to the whole "game used" vs. "game issued" debate since it seems these traded jerseys aren't necessarily worn before being traded. I've been told that Pujols does this (I'd think his jersey is really in demand), but the jerseys he gives away are tailored differently than his gamers -- gamers have a straight hem, the "giveaways" have tails. I'm also aware of "gift jerseys" that have 6200 laundry tags. I've wondered if Majestic, knowing an order of a dozen jerseys is being made for player trading, intentionally supplies 6200 jerseys. It could explain why some "gamers" have 6200 tags. Who knows?

Jeff
http://www.birdbats.com (http://www.birdbats.com/)

[kingjammy24]

i've repeatedly stated that it's likely ortiz purchases jerseys to sell/trade. this was never a point of debate. the original issue in this thread was whether these jerseys are gameworn. i've reiterated the same position as the article that these jerseys are purchased, sold/traded, and not gameworn.
again, in short: yes ortiz probably purchases jerseys, yes he most likely trades/sells them. nothing about this is "unbelievable". what is unbelievable and what is the issue is whether these jerseys are gameworn.

as i said, there's a difference between ordering a jersey and wearing a jersey. if nesports wanted an unworn, unissued, ortiz-purchased jersey, then i don't think there'd be much to talk about.

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

Rudy-
Likewise, let's not discard his information about his "contact" snooping around the clubhouse, either.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[CollectGU]

Rudy,

If he has 5 home jerseys in his locker for a home game, do you think Papi or the equipment manager is going to look to see which ones are coded 0062 or 6200 before he puts one on. Rob Steinmetz sold a 6200 coded Clemens in one of AMI's auctions as a gamer......

Dave

[kingjammy24]

hi dave,

you chose to specifically mention home jerseys only. my original issue was with road jerseys in his home locker.

do i think papi or the equipment manager looks at the codes before he puts one on? no, because even big papi knows not to wear a road uniform for a home game. given that the equipment manager isn't putting road uniforms into home lockers, it makes it pretty obvious to ortiz who put them there.

regarding home jerseys, i'll opine ortiz likely knows which ones he brought in and which uniform was laid out for him prior to his arrival in the clubhouse by the equipment staff. in reading the article, it seemed the players were pretty well-aware that they were trading/selling/buying unworn jerseys. they're intentionally trading crisp jerseys. the only way they're doing this is by being aware of which ones theyve ordered and which ones they really wear. it's really not as confusing as you may think. looking at codes isn't necessary.
if you doubt this, just examine set 1 Arod texas gamers vs set 3. now why is it the set 1's are hammered and the set 3's are crisp? however did arod manage to keep the 2 apart? did he look at the codes before putting each one on? is it magic that all the un-team tagged set 3's are crisp? they're well aware. it doesn't take a detective to tell the jerseys apart when you've lugged 10 of them in from your car into the clubhouse where 1 or 2 were already laid out by the equipment staff prior to your arrival.

as for rob steinmetz's 6200 coded clemens, what does that have to do with anything? my first post in this thread stated "re: the 6200 code. although intended for retail, they've been known to make it into clubhouses and used in games... i don't think a 6200 automatically and conclusively means it couldn't have been game used". the big issue is not the 6200. the big issue is the numerous road jerseys in the home locker.

the fact that all 11 were coded 6200 doesn't help. if rob had 11 6200-coded jerseys from a single player then i think most would agree that's a cause for concern. we're not talking about 1 6200. we're talking about 11 and the fact that road jerseys are in a home locker.

rudy.

[CollectGU]

Rudy,

Forget about the road jerseys for one second...Let's assume papi ordered 6 extra home jerseys for himself...My question is - If Papi ordered 6 extra home jerseys and they were coded 6200 and mixed together with the team ordered jerseys in his locker, do you really think that Papi or the euip manager cares and looks which ones are ordered by him and which by the team? My answer is no and some of the 6200 get worn and some of the 0062 get traded...What does papi or the equip. manager care which is which - only collectors care and they could care less about conversations like this...

[kingjammy24]

dave,

in order to arrive at an irrelevant conclusion (ortiz can't tell the difference between 0062s and 6200s), you're constructing several unlikely premises.

"Forget about the road jerseys for one second"

ok. let's forget about the smoking gun for a second.

"If Papi ordered 6 extra home jerseys and they were coded 6200 and mixed together with the team ordered jerseys in his locker.."

if ortiz ordered these and IF they were mixed in with team ordered jerseys, then ortiz likely couldn't tell the difference. we've arrived at the conclusion you wanted, as unhelpful as it may be to the real issue.

back to realities; who said anything about ortiz's orders being mixed in? that's a huge IF that you've assumed to support your conclusion.
nesports said his friend looked through all 11 jerseys in ortiz's locker and ALL were 6200s. he didn't say he found a mix of 0062s and 6200s which would indicate ortiz did mix them in. he said he found only 6200s. do you realize what this means? that NOTHING was mixed. ALL the jerseys were 6200s/ortiz-ordered. is it at all likely that majestic did not ship any 0062 jerseys to ortiz? i'll tell you where the 0062 jersey was: on ortiz's back during the game. if you want to pretend there was a mix to support some hypothetical conclusion, then that's beyond this discussion.

given that it's been proven there was no mix, what compelling evidence have you that ortiz mixes his orders and the teams orders into one big pile and can't tell the difference?
other than the evidence presented above, i'll add that the reality that players are selling/trading crisp jerseys strongly suggests they're very adept at keeping the 2 separate doesn't it?

the reality that there was no mix and the reality that players are trading/selling crisp jerseys undeniably lends serious weight to my theory. your idea 1) requires that we ignore the road jerseys 2) ignore the fact that there was no mix 3) pretend there was a mix 4) pretend players are trading worn and unworn jerseys when in fact they aren't.

if you'd like to believe in all of those assumptions, then i fail to see how they're leading you to any accurate conclusions. i ask this in all seriousness: have you invested in a bulk of 6200-coded ortiz jerseys?

rudy.

[nesportspromotions]

One of two things are going on with you Howard...

#1 You are on a witch hunt....

OR

#2 You want me to say who my contact is....

Well I'm not going to say who my source is. Oh and by the way... There are no surveillance cameras in the locker area of the clubhouse.

Howard I'll type your response for you: "You can't be serious!" Yup I'm serious. There are no surveillance cameras where people are NAKED before and after every game.
OK Howard I'll type your response to that: "But there are TV cameras in the locker area after the game when the guys are changing." Yup you're correct again. BUT they are not supposed to video tape the players and coaches in the nude. There is someone controlling a TV camera. It is not placed on a wall to view the whole room 24/7.

BTW: My contact can take a plate of food from the post game spread everyday if he wants to. He could take a dip in the whirlpool and use the weight room too.


NOW AS FAR AS THE WITCH HUNT GOES:
Howard you are a rude person. You are a bully. I personally have never even met you (and don't ever care to) but you leave a bad taste in my mouth. I'm completely disgusted with you and your comments. I'm sorry your 0062 jersey is not worth all that much anymore. It's not my fault there are a bunch of Big Papi 6200 jerseys that could have seen game play. It's obvious that because of this thread you feel threatened monetarily. That's why you keep attacking me so vehemently. I paid too much for my two jerseys but I feel better knowing there are 6200's in his locker. There are homes and roads there. The jerseys I have might never have seen the field at all. I don't know. For all I know the home jersey we've been seeing Papi where on TV could be the same one he had on his back Opening Day. It's not 100% on any jersey no matter who it comes from and no matter who's letter it comes with.













"Based on your most recent post, you expect us to believe your "contact" just walked into the clubhouse, stood in front of Ortiz's locker, and examined over a dozen jerseys inside of his locker (during a game no less!) to try to assit you in determining if your jersey was real? He did this knowing that an 8 year Red Sox employee was recently fired for asking for an autograph, knowing that there are over 200 cameras and an individual is roaming the place strictly looking for problems and crooks?
Did he happen to mention that he also took a quick dip in the Jacuzzi and tried a plate of the post-game spread, all before the 7th inning stretch?

You can't be serious!

Howard Wolf"

[nesportspromotions]

Hey Rudy it really doesn't seem logical to have ROAD jerseys in his home locker. I agree with that.

BUT

My friend that does not work at Fenway but is a collector of Game Used jerseys told me there is "NO WAY" a 6200 could be a game used jersey. Well he could be right. He also could be wrong. The bottom line is this: There are 6200's in Papi's home locker. So these jerseys could have been worn by Ortiz in a game. I feel a little better about my purchase now. I'm not 100% but at least that is better being certain they did not get used in a game.

There are jerseys out there from the 1910's and 1920's with letters from everyone and there brother. Nobody KNOWS if they were really used by the players in question in a game or in 100 games. There is no certainty out there unless a player personally takes off the jersey and hands it to you after the game. Then YOU know the truth. Maybe I got screwed maybe I didn't. Let me say it again... I feel better about my purchase knowing there are 6200's in Papi's locker.


Thanks again for your input.
"how can ortiz wear road jerseys if they're sitting in his locker at fenway? and
why is ortiz keeping road jerseys in his locker at fenway instead of in the equipment room where all of the other player's road jerseys are kept?"

[bigtime59]

Hypothesis: players are absolutely batsh*t about their equipment. I've got guys on my SOFTBALL team who don't like to wash their jerseys during a hot streak. Therefore, let us say that most players know exactly which jerseys/pants, etc. they are wearing at any given time.
Hypothesis: HOME jerseys are significantly more popular than road jerseys among collectors, and somewhat more popular than alternates. (I'm an exception to this rule, but this ain't about me.)
Known fact: players will wear more than one jersey during significant games. They've been doing it since at least 1995, when Cal Ripken wore at least two jerseys during the 2131 game.
Known fact: the team, not the player, owns the game jerseys issued to the player by the team, for game use. It has been standard practice to let players keep one jersey per season. (From what I've heard, it's just one jersey, not one of each style.)
Question: is there ANY evident wear on any of the Ortiz jerseys in question?
I doubt that a 6200-coded road jersey sitting in Ortiz' home locker would have been game worn, but I haven't taken a dip in the Jacuzzi in the Red Sox clubhouse in, well...ever.
I anxiously await the verdict on who has the biggest penis. Please keep me posted.
Thanks,
Mark Sutton
bigtime39@aol.com

[nesportspromotions]

OK, I'm gettin out the ruler right now....

Ahh nevermind!


BUT good point. Game use... They are not crisp jerseys but there is no real wear on either. There are a couple of small stains but that's about it.

When Papi's buddy handed them to me the road was inside out and it kind of had a smelly feet/locker room odor. But that means nothing if they came from the Papi's locker. They should smell like a locker room if they came out of one, used or not.













Hypothesis: players are absolutely batsh*t about their equipment. I've got guys on my SOFTBALL team who don't like to wash their jerseys during a hot streak. Therefore, let us say that most players know exactly which jerseys/pants, etc. they are wearing at any given time.
Hypothesis: HOME jerseys are significantly more popular than road jerseys among collectors, and somewhat more popular than alternates. (I'm an exception to this rule, but this ain't about me.)
Known fact: players will wear more than one jersey during significant games. They've been doing it since at least 1995, when Cal Ripken wore at least two jerseys during the 2131 game.
Known fact: the team, not the player, owns the game jerseys issued to the player by the team, for game use. It has been standard practice to let players keep one jersey per season. (From what I've heard, it's just one jersey, not one of each style.)
Question: is there ANY evident wear on any of the Ortiz jerseys in question?
I doubt that a 6200-coded road jersey sitting in Ortiz' home locker would have been game worn, but I haven't taken a dip in the Jacuzzi in the Red Sox clubhouse in, well...ever.
I anxiously await the verdict on who has the biggest penis. Please keep me posted.
Thanks,
Mark Sutton
bigtime39@aol.com

[gameused]

OK, I'm gettin out the ruler right now....

Ahh nevermind!


BUT good point. Game use... They are not crisp jerseys but there is no real wear on either. There are a couple of small stains but that's about it.

When Papi's buddy handed them to me the road was inside out and it kind of had a smelly feet/locker room odor. But that means nothing if they came from the Papi's locker. They should smell like a locker room if they came out of one, used or not.

Here's a nice photo of a 2006 David Ortiz jersey showing the strip tag. If you look at his left shoulder area in the photo you can see some stains, the stains most likely pine tar came from from resting his bat on his shoulder before his swing, you may want to look at that area of your jerseys for any stains.

Also, I totally agree with the Red Sox clamping down on game used items leaving the locker room, last year I was getting a call from my contact in Boston for game used Red Sox bats every two weeks, now its like every two months.

[nesportspromotions]

Ahh, mine don't match. I wish they did! Thanks for the pic. Any idea of the date of that pic? Thanks!

[trsent]

I do not know what is the verdict of this thread, but Rudy you do need to stop thinking that everyone is out to defraud the public, even the players themselves.

The players do not use the same thinking you do for situations.

In fact, I was looking at some jerseys with team letters today and some of the letters for game used jerseys were labeled "team issued". The jerseys showed wear and puckering.

Why did this happen? Simple: The team doesn't know that we have a whole dictionary for game used and game issued that they mistakenly violated.

[MikeSimon]

If you don't mind us asking...How much did you pay for the pair?

[MikeSimon]

Should the strip tag be sewn over the little size tag on Red Sox gamers?

[gameused]

Ahh, mine don't match. I wish they did! Thanks for the pic. Any idea of the date of that pic? Thanks!

That photo was taken on April 9, between the Red Sox and the Orioles at Camden yards.

Bobby